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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Considering how sluggish and unresponsive RMB combos also feel now, it's clear that the autoblock and zoom-switch also broke something integral.

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Found another issue with current state of Melee:
Weapon with secondary attack is unreliable. You get into melee by simply pressing E which would select and use forth melee weapon along with its combos, however, while you can use Aim or primary fire to go back into gun-mode, this does not apply to secondary fire button which currently sharing Channeling toggle keybind (change-able, but that's not the case).

Using any kind of weapon that has secondary fire (Corinth, Battacor, etc.) is no longer viable as given form of melee would interfere with common use of these weapons secondary fire, rendering it unreliable in a fight, as player need to manually switch out of melee or look down to see if it's selected or use Aim/Fire button to auto-switch and only then secondary fire can be used.

While I already listed a few issues, along with several bugs with blocking in other thread, here are some new features I discovered today fighting with Profit taker, while I did not bother to manually trigger to confirm it as a bug: Melee can/can't be used when using Archgun (both cases were present), melee selected makes unable to summon Archgun, melee auto-blocking interfering with ability execution, melee blocking canceling melee attack (mentioned vice-versa case in my previous message here, well, both are present).

P.S. a wise advice from clanmate on how to solve all of my problems with melee: unknown.png

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Posted (edited)

About "Combo resume" and "gap closer"

I need this mechanic: 

  • Combo resume "timer".  Will show how much time i have left to resume my combo.  Simple indicator near aiming reticle.
  • During combo, press W (forward) 2 times rapidly to perform a short horisontal dash towards reticle.   Combo can be resumed after this dash.

 

 

So...basically, I want "gap closer" move that can be performed during any combo and allows to resume current combo.   Like shooting, but gap closer.

 With that, we would not need any "mobility combos". You just use that "gap closer dash" during your combo and keep choppin.   

 

Also, I quite enjoy how melee 2,9999997 turned out.  To the point when i almost can say "screw manual blocking"... Almost. Keep up.

Pretty sure that all "whining" happens because people need time to get used to new controls.   For experienced players like myself, it feels fluid and nice.

 

Cant wait for combo improvements.

Edited by Kainosh

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Switching to my gun currently deactivates channeling. Is there, or can there be, an option for channeling to persist through the switch? having to press alt fire on every switch is annoying if I'm using a build that uses channeling a lot, and breaks up the new flow of melee.

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I spent a while playing with Melee 2.9 so I could give feedback that wasn't just a kneejerk reaction. I love how quickly and fluidly we can switch between melee and guns. I like the new ground slams even though they don't feel like the physics should work that way. I like automatically deflecting bullets.

I hate not having quick melee. I almost never used anything except quick melee before the update because the movements and combos in melee can be so awkward. For example: when swinging a whip with quick melee you can run forward while making predictable arced swings with the whip. Without quick melee, performing the same action causes you to stop midstep multiple times and end every couple strikes with a straight forward swing. (At least, using the stance I am.) A second example: using fist weapons with quick melee and standing still causes a flurry of quick strikes while very slowly creeping forward. With a stance on, the same input can turn into a few awkward punches with a leap forward that often flings you past your target. 

It's frustrating to play with the unpredictable movements and stops of combos when you've spent years playing with the ability to just swing a melee weapon without completely interrupting the flow of your movement. As things stand I will be making decisions about what melee weapon to use based on how awkward it feels to attack with, which I find disappointing because some of my favorite weapons feel really bad to use now.

Please bring back some kind of option to not use combos. I know your team has put a lot of work into making them interesting so a single weapon can work in a variety of ways, but a lot of us just want to swing our weapons and move along without movements added in as part of the melee button.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Pretty sure that all "whining" happens because people need time to get used to new controls.   For experienced players like myself, it feels fluid and nice.

No it's because we don't like the new controls with functions that shouldn't be jammed together jammed together.  In my case I've played enough with it and I don't like it one bit.

And for many "experienced players" like myself(or, you know, the vast majority of us on here) it feels clunky and like trash.

And your gap closer? It's called bullet jumping mate. Try it some time. Or if you really need an auto aimed one try a frame like garuda.

 

Edit in:For clarification I was saying most of us on the forums are experienced players not that most of us share one opinion on this or the other. I find referring to yourself as one, and thus implying that anyone who disagrees with you isn't, frankly to be a bit on the snobbish side.

Edited by Sikelh
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Posted (edited)

Dear DE,

Thanks for making autoblocking suck a tiny bit less, but can we still have the option to have control over blocking again?  Some people like this feature, and some people don't.  Shouldn't different players be allowed to play in different ways?
And please listen when we tell you that gliding should be weapon agnostic.  It is a thing we do to get around, not a thing we do to change weapons.  You had it working just fine with all weapons prior to Melee 2.9, so it's hard for us to believe it's impossible.  Ideally, I'd rather have aiming and gliding be different keybinds, but the compromise that existed prior to now worked surprisingly well.

Edited by Hjalmthrimul
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Tbh im not enjoying the "quick-swap" melee thing all that much.  The immediate swap to melee upon meleeing is ok for the most part, but the immediate swap from melee to gun upon using either LMB or RMB (despite RMB being used for combos) throws me off a lot.  If I swap to melee then i want to stay in melee until i want to stop.  I guess what I'm saying is that it is too easy to swap back from melee to gun.

Over time I will likely get used to it but it is throwing me off right now.

For the record I use a mouse with a keypad on the side and i set swap to melee to my 6 key.  That's the only "custom settings" I use and it works fine for me.  Now I understand that many, if not most players, don't use this kind of mouse.  But I'm hear to comment about my concerns

The aimable ground pound is great though, and hilarious.  I covered 200m+ on Vallis when leaving my archwing.

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DE - thank you so much for making the exploiter orb being able to be attacked by melee during it's 'glowy' phase.
As a melee only player, and having ventured into deck 12 with only melee equipped, I was obviously a bit unprepared. Being able to attack the legs with melee was actually helpful and I was able to contribute!
Also - I appreciate that most melee only bugs as client are fixed.

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Posted (edited)

Just chiming in to offer my opinion.

I don't like that melee inputs have been removed from mouse controls.  Auto-block is unreliable and the inability to manually block prevents me from performing certain combos.

For instance, before the changes when using Dual Keres or any other dual sword weapon, I could hold RMB to block, then spam E while holding forward to perform an effective melee combo (East To West) while continuing to move in the direction I desire.  Not holding block while spamming E resulted in a poorly designed combo (Lacerating Leap) that involves dashing forward a good distance and that particular attack very rarely connects with an enemy.  Now I'm unable to do the effective combo unless i cease holding forward while attacking, which means I have a choice of either moving forward but using a bad combo that never hits anything, or standing still and doing a combo that will kill but I'll have to keep stopping, press E a few times, move to the next enemy, stop, press E a few times, move to the next enemy, on and on and on.  As you can imagine, this breaks the flow of combat I used to have in an extremely negative way.  Another weapon that has been negatively impacted by this change is whips, where using quick melee (spamming E) would result in a fluid 2 attacks swinging left and right in a wide arc, maximising it's potential. This change now forces the third attack of the standard combo, a straight forward swing that will only impact enemies standing directly infront of the player that rarely connects and does not take advantage of the wide attack range of whips.

Additionally, aim-gliding while using a melee weapon used to result in blocking while gliding through the air.  This is now not possible, since holding RMB results in the Warframe switching from their melee weapon to their currently equipped ranged weapon, making air-blocking impossible.  Also, having to utilise another key to activate or deactivate channelling instead of it being assigned to LMB is counter-intuitive.  There are times when activating and de-activating channelling quickly is a necessity (using life strike for example), and when it was connected to LMB, that was easy to do.  Now however, while the player may already be using their keyboard hand to move around, slide, crouch, roll, activate abilities etc. they ALSO have to have constant access to another key, where as before they'd already have their other hand on the mouse so the assigning of LMB to channelling was the most obvious and logical choice.

Ideas for changes

First idea is when the player presses E to melee, it will quick-change like it does now, but will also assign the legacy melee controls to the mouse (LMB = channelling, RMB = blocking).  This will give players back the control they once had in melee.  This will also means that weapons with 'bad combos' assigned to just spamming E, and 'good combos' assigned to blocking while spamming E will be able to continue doing so, instead of breaking the flow of combat by forcing players to stand still in order to execute a different combo.  From this point, pressing F would instantly switch back to their previous ranged weapon, while holding F would switch to their other ranged weapon.  This would be, I believe, a perfect middle-ground between the legacy melee system and the current one, allowing for a quick change to melee and the benefits it offers while not taking away the access and control they once had over their actions in melee.  Blocking certainly should not be automated, as some Warframes actually benefit from face-tanking bullets (A Valkyr Rage build, Garuda, Chroma etc.), and the damage reduction due to auto-blocking counteracts the benefits their abilities/mods/passives offer them from taking damage.  Forcing the player to either use a ranged weapon or face away from their enemies at all times in order to build up whatever advantage they get from incoming damage is not a solution.

Second idea.  Compile a list of weapons with ineffective, poorly designed or faulty combos and redesign or re-allocate the combos to ones that are more effective.  For example, for dual-swords, alter/move Lacerating Leap from it's current position so that the default combo performed when holding forward and pressing E will be East To West, a much more effective combo that doesn't cause the player to dash forward uncontrollably and nearly always fail to connect it's dash attack to enemies due to it's poor hitbox (side note: In the old melee system, holding RMB while spamming E and moving forward would result in the player performing East To West instead of Lacerating Leap).  Combos that require a forward directional input will nearly always be the ones activated when attempting to melee, as players obviously want to keep moving towards their objective or other groups of enemies while meleeing, so it makes sense that any combos that pick up a forward directional input to be executed should be ones that do not interrupt or cause a loss of control to that player, as it will only result in frustration and, as I have experienced hundreds of times with Lacerating Leap, a fall into a pit which then de-activates powers and results in death from nearby enemies.

Edited by Konachibi
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an adjusted perspective looking at the different gameplay styles:

there was melee only and ranged only, there was also melee with ranged or ranged with melee.

now there are only melee only, ranged only or ranged with melee.

that is to say, the melee with ranged gameplay style was removed completely.

did it have to be removed? The Tenno were as versatile as the options themselves, presently it is becoming less versatile, is that even a good thing? whilst both sides of the fence have pros and cons, the cons outweigh the pros for melee style players and makes the game less balanced.

possible solution:

what if the melee exclusive selection keybind was added to the current 3.0? those who preferred it the way it was would be happy and those who didn't see the need to use it didn't have to, in this case I see where quick melee will be sacrificed but what used to be the quick melee button will just be insta switch to melee attack button as it is currently and right click will still be aim and aim glide. for those who want to bring extra back up with their melee can just switch to melee on the fly without returning home to equip melee only just to utilize their melee style of playing to their full extent. less playerbase casualties everyone happy.

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Newest changes is too strange. In general it just make all melee almost unplayable. Using quick attack to change weapon for melee destructed idea about quick switching weapon in a battle. Why you not just leave to us F key for switching between ALL weapons and not only between main and secondary. It's really VERY uncomfortable. Plus we haven't manual block now when equipped any main or\and secondary. Why? Answer me DE, why? I play your game about 4,5 years and now I need to learn new bad and defective control. Where's all these people for which interfere manual block? For what reason was all this (sorry) sh*t?

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Posted (edited)

If nothing else, those of us that use our Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision NEED our manual block button back, and NEED to be able to at the very least turn off auto-blocking. If you want to leave auto-blocking in there as training wheels for other players, fine, but these two mods require us to have complete and total control over blocking, that means when we want to block AND when we don't. It's not a case of just clunky weapon flow or difficulty executing certain combos (Though that can be remedied too if RMB goes back to how it was before melee 3.0). It is literally a case of two mods becoming completely uncontrollable, two mods that help us to protect our allies by taking damage in their place, which can just as likely kill us in situations where we need to not take their damage. I would have thought that as loved as DE is as a developer by its players that the removal of player control (as opposed to making it optional for the player to turn on or not) made it past the drawing board. It's hard to go wrong with giving players more choices, but it's easy to go wrong if you make the decision for them.

But perhaps this is just premature judgement of Melee 3.0. MAYBE you have a big reveal up your sleeve to implement remedies to the problems that phase 1 is plagued with. It's perhaps a cautionary tale too, one that many developers before DE learned, and many after are like to repeat, that sometimes great content is not so great when divided into parts. There's something known as "irreducible complexity" or you may know it by the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" a paraphrase from a quote of Aristotle. It means that perhaps Melee 3.0 is going to be AMAZING... once you finish implementing ALL of it. But what has been implemented thus far has broken a lot of things that we were enjoying, and many have said is a step backward. Hopefully the rest of this change gets implemented in a timely manner, and I hope it's as wonderful as the hype you generated for it. Disappointment hurts your bottom line, and that hurts future content.

Edited by xZeromusx
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all that needs to be done to please everybody is bring back quick melee, allow people to manually block, and you're golden. people who for some reason love the more restrictive new system can have it, and people who have grown used to the old system can have what they have been using for years and come to love. a massive amount of people loved this game for its melee combat, and you knew this, DE. why would you gut a system that people love?

many of these issues could be avoided by moving away from releasing updates in "phases"; release updates when they're ready to be released instead of releasing things that aren't even half finished. i believe i speak for the vast majority of the community when i say that people would prefer to wait a few more months for the finished update to be released as opposed to having a unfinished mess shoved down our throats.

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The new patch addresses half an issue for me and that is the reloading, I'm constantly reloading my weapon empty or not; it's just habit after playing so many FPS games. Now when the gun is empty it takes me back to the gun when I have my melee out. Which is great except when the gun is full. When it's full it does not switch back to the gun. Any chance you could change that DE?

Other then that still not happy. Still don't have manual blocking or quick melee and the melee still comes out and stays when I don't want it to. I'm finding “Melee with weapon fire input” off or on isn't really a solution to anything. When it is off I go back to my gun when I hit LMB (which is more like quick melee) and having it on only makes sense when I want to go full time melee. So I'm forced to open options to change that if I decide in the middle of the mission to go full melee.😢

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55 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

If nothing else, those of us that use our Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision NEED our manual block button back, and NEED to be able to at the very least turn off auto-blocking. If you want to leave auto-blocking in there as training wheels for other players, fine, but these two mods require us to have complete and total control over blocking, that means when we want to block AND when we don't. It's not a case of just clunky weapon flow or difficulty executing certain combos (Though that can be remedied too if RMB goes back to how it was before melee 3.0). It is literally a case of two mods becoming completely uncontrollable, two mods that help us to protect our allies by taking damage in their place, which can just as likely kill us in situations where we need to not take their damage. I would have thought that as loved as DE is as a developer by its players that the removal of player control (as opposed to making it optional for the player to turn on or not) made it past the drawing board. It's hard to go wrong with giving players more choices, but it's easy to go wrong if you make the decision for them.

But perhaps this is just premature judgement of Melee 3.0. MAYBE you have a big reveal up your sleeve to implement remedies to the problems that phase 1 is plagued with. It's perhaps a cautionary tale too, one that many developers before DE learned, and many after are like to repeat, that sometimes great content is not so great when divided into parts. There's something known as "irreducible complexity" or you may know it by the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" a paraphrase from a quote of Aristotle. It means that perhaps Melee 3.0 is going to be AMAZING... once you finish implementing ALL of it. But what has been implemented thus far has broken a lot of things that we were enjoying, and many have said is a step backward. Hopefully the rest of this change gets implemented in a timely manner, and I hope it's as wonderful as the hype you generated for it. Disappointment hurts your bottom line, and that hurts future content.

WOW! Well said! I feel like an idiot with my posts after reading this. See DE you have some AMAZING people playing this game. I'm still hanging in there to see how it all plays out.

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The Auto Blocking Give hard time aiming with bullet dance and Redeemer as the melee
for me Auto Blocking should be privilege to melee mode only which is excalibur passive origin

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I am quite enjoying the new system as it's been saving me a from *lot* of unecessary button-pressing mostly from not having to be constantly pressing the "equip melee/weapon" keys so much. I would quite often have my melee weapon out for Dispatch Overdrive and stealth-killing purposes but then would always be switching weapons when I came up to objectives/traps/sensors. Before the melee changes I would often switch to Operator to destroy the obstacle then switch back and found that to be a little faster and less annoying/fiddly than switching to a different weapon and back again. Now I can just shoot it without thinking about it. Easy.

The thing I'm struggling with now though.. is that I really want that Dispatch Overdrive buff (and also the Exodia Brave energy regen)... Which requires that I be channeling to activate it. So the problem with with new system is that:
1) Every time I switch in and out from my melee weapon the game cancels the channeling. Requiring me to reactivate it.

2) If I decide to keep my melee equipped and use that and only that, then every time I do an aim glide (and I aim glide a *lot* for better jumping control, latching onto walls, etc.) then the channeling gets cancelled again.

This is leading to a lot of extra fiddling and button-pressing trying to reactivate the channel *every* time and it's not always very clear to me if the channeling is even active or not (because of all the lights and FX going on). I feel like I'm guessing half the time whether or not it's even on.

In any case a simple fix would be to have a toggle in the options menu to have channeling active until cancelled or something.
 

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Dear DE Team, bring the melee back... please.

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Just now, Snoit said:

Dear DE Team, bring the melee back... please.

I wonder how much more of us melee people going to crawl out of the woodwork and on the forums? how long will we be crawling out for, seems like there are so much of us, well time will tell. so much people who didn't join the forum once because they were satisfied with their melee with guns gameplay style, and now its gone they find their way to here. I wish they would just add the toggle for melee exclusive selection whilst having guns equipped  already and let these people continue to enjoy the game, I guess it's also a good strategy to get the player bases to participate in the forums. give that toggle so both melee people and ranged people can have what they want and everyone wins.

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Everything's great so far except I found a couple of edge cases where I prefer the old system:

  1. Some weapons thrived on quick melee combos, which don't seem to be a thing at all now. weapons like polearms had amazing and useful quick melee combos that just don't exist anymore. I hope with the stance reworks, this can come back.
  2. Some weapon passives don't feel right in this new system. Sigma and Octantis's throw mechanic gets in the way of directional slamming. I recommend a hold-to-throw mechanic for that one. Vaykor Sydon's workaround seems fine, but still clumsy, especially on a mouse.

That's all I have for the moment. Overall a welcome change.

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3 hours ago, Sikelh said:

it's because we don't like the new controls with functions that shouldn't be jammed together jammed together.  In my case I've played enough with it and I don't like it one bit.

52 minutes ago, toelicker98 said:

people who for some reason love the more restrictive new system can have it, and people who have grown used to the old system can have what they have been using for years and come to love

47 minutes ago, toelicker98 said:

a massive amount of people loved this game for its melee combat, and you knew this, DE. why would you gut a system that people love?

I've responded so many times to this thread, and this is the exact same point I've raised each time; the core root of the problem. I am getting utterly frustrated with DE's complete disregard to the feedback of anyone that used PRIMARILY melee weapons. Instead, the whole team seems to be acting in favor of merely fixing the bugs reported by the players that don't protest this awkward fusion of controls, and follow the train of logic that "It's like a Devil Trigger in my Animu fightin' games so it must be good".

My Many Dearly Missed Enjoyments of the "Bad" Melee 2.0

I liked actually being able to toggle between all three weapon slots; and I liked physically holding and holstering a greatsword/trident/katana/staff/polearm/daggers/etc.; because it made me feel quite genuinely like the "space ninja" we are so frequently marketed as being in this game

I liked being able to fight with melee in its own dedicated mode; and I liked my melee never being interrupted by shooting that results because I don't frequently keep hitting my melee bind.

I liked using my ranged weapons completely separately; and I ESPECIALLY LIKED actually, physically holstering my different weapons with an animation; instead of yet another asinine half-second energy-flicker effect as they teleport randomly back and forth off of me, in a game that is already riddled with eye fatigue.

I liked having quick melee and the convenience it brought to stealth and looting; and I liked quick melee being the only melee strike that would trigger while I was using my guns; because I have no desire to use both in horrendously janky synchronization, and I never will. AT. ANY. POINT.

I liked the fact that in the "bad" old system, I could control my own blasted block; and in particularly I LOVED that block was hold-and-release; instead of some asinine toggle that remains active until hit again.

I liked the utter absence of a condescending, hand-holding computer-block that gets itself stuck in a loop of trying to block Exploiter Orb's plasma bolts; keeping me from throwing the Thermia at her, or being able to fight any of her thousand, stupid little green Mite sons.

I f***ing LOVED the visceral satisfaction of using Exalted Melees on dozens, even hundreds of foes; and removing the override of my normal weapons by such awesome and mook-shredding mega-melees as Exalted Blade and Hysteria has removed the feeling of power that they gave me. It isn't half as metal to have claws made of pure energy and rip a Grineer's spine out with them when you can no longer directly wield melee weapons in their own dedicated mode; and even less so when I no longer have working color correction for the "berserker haze" of orange for the Hysteria aura. Literally every single time a hit connects with a foe when I use Hysteria, ever since Buried Debts launched, the color correction flickers out and goes back to normal rendering before resuming the orange. As you may have noticed, the Orb Vallis is overall a blue in color from all its ice, and now I'm developing epilepsy. There goes the most fun part of playing Valkyr; and in comes yet more eye fatigue.

I liked stances, and I liked using them only when I was in melee mode. It is not fun to go through the full Winding Claws combo of Swirling Tiger and strike an explosive barrel behind the loot barrel quick melee would have safely hit prior to Buried Debts; thus alerting the whole Grineer Vault when the stupid Regulators get damaged by that same barrel in a Spy node.

I liked pretty much all stances but Sundering Weave and Crossing Snakes, and I doubt that others' feelings were different. Rather than fix these two distinctly clumsy, useless, unimpressive, and slow stances; by giving them combos that actually flowed, and attacks with reach and forward momentum; melee mode was removed altogether, and so was manual block. Now the 98% of stances that were once perfectly good are janky; and even Wise Razor, which is very pretty, is devoid of appeal without the old RMB to pull off its combos, or a dedicated melee mode that lets me actually hold Revenant's cool Sentient great-katana in my hands indefinitely. 

I liked channeling. I genuinely did. It had cool energy effects, it was satisfying to watch foes dissolve into light after death, and its only real problems were its low damage-boost output and poor ability to maintain itself. Rather than change the mechanics to make channeling both satisfying and viable, it was instead removed altogether. Majorly uncool, and yet one more point taken off the "space ninja" aesthetic; to render us all just boring sci-fi gun dudes. I miss my glowing sword trail swirlies almost as much as I miss holding my melee weapons FOR REAL.

Speaking of channeling still, I liked when Life Strike still worked so even my squishy frames could maintain themselves; and I liked exploding my throwing melees, which I now can't do, and takes half the fun out of Glaive and Orvius since Buried Debts.

I liked ground slams that knocked down my foes so I could use finishers; instead of launching them uselessly sky-high to be shot at with guns, in one more example of the "improved" system's chauvinism toward ranged combat.

And more than anything, I liked the diversity in playing styles we used to have when we could use our guns and melees in isolation, instead of an ugly and forcibly-integrated tandem that you foisted upon us without option or alternative.

@[DE]Danielle, and at any other developerss actually willing to listen at Digital Extremes, please, please, please, PLEASE restore things as they were. Make what you've shoved into the game currently be the toggle in options, and since everyone who supports new melee has bragged to me about "finding it more fluid because they're advanced and real players", label that option "Advanced Melee". Find your fixes to the issues it currently has, and let the players who like this fused twitch-fest of passive-melee have it; as something that is turned on instead of the default state of melee combat.

But Lord have mercy, do not make this trainwreck the default state of melee in perpetuity. It is the polar opposite of streamlined and intuitive. It has twice the fiddling 2.0 did, and 1/20th the fun to use. Believe it or not, many of us were just fine and happy with melee; and only really wanted you to give Fang Prime, Pangolin Sword, etc. better stats.

Restore active melee mode, instead of making slicing and dicing a side garnish when it used to be more than a few of us' main mode of game-play and favorite thing in Waframe (especially mine). 

Restore controlled block, and make it hold-release instead of a toggle like the recent "hotfix" half-changed the still auto-triggering block into. We're Tenno, we can defend ourselves. It's not just annoying, it's insulting.

Restore normal RMB in combos, instead of rearranging them or changing their order to further shred and distort play that used to be fun. We want to aim glide while holding greatswords again. Parkour was enhanced by steering with my melee in the old system, not reduced.

Restore holstering, for the sake of sensitive eyes. That teleport-flash of weapons in and out of my hands from my back and hips is extremely infuriating already, and far too saturated and opaque in its energy detailing. If you're all so worried about player critiques that holstering and weapon swap is "slow", then just make the quick-swap inherent and remove mods like Soft Hands, Speed Holster, and Twitch altogether. Problem solved, and it would give just as virtually instant of weapon-switch, without the eye fatigue.

Make ground slams on non-Hammer/Heavy Blade weapons knock down foes again, and not launch them. I want to impale dudes lying on their back again.

More than anything, restore our faith that all of you that work so hard at DE haven't suddenly stopped putting thought into that hard work. 

Let us play the way we choose, instead of forcing us into a newly-prescribed and newly-narrowed set of unappealing controls. People can be Dante from Devil May Cry if they actually want to; but let those of us that are the real melee freaks and formerly used to use it almost exclusively for combat remain Knight Artorias and Executioner Smough in the style of how we play Warframe.

 

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19 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

I've responded so many times to this thread, and this is the exact same point I've raised each time; the core root of the problem. I am getting utterly frustrated with DE's complete disregard to the feedback of anyone that used PRIMARILY melee weapons. Instead, the whole team seems to be acting in favor of merely fixing the bugs reported by the players that don't protest this awkward fusion of controls, and follow the train of logic that "It's like a Devil Trigger in my Animu fightin' games so it must be good".

My Many Dearly Missed Enjoyments of the "Bad" Melee 2.0

I liked actually being able to toggle between all three weapon slots; and I liked physically holding and holstering a greatsword/trident/katana/staff/polearm/daggers/etc.; because it made me feel quite genuinely like the "space ninja" we are so frequently marketed as being in this game

I liked being able to fight with melee in its own dedicated mode; and I liked my melee never being interrupted by shooting that results because I don't frequently keep hitting my melee bind.

I liked using my ranged weapons completely separately; and I ESPECIALLY LIKED actually, physically holstering my different weapons with an animation; instead of yet another asinine half-second energy-flicker effect as they teleport randomly back and forth off of me, in a game that is already riddled with eye fatigue.

I liked having quick melee and the convenience it brought to stealth and looting; and I liked quick melee being the only melee strike that would trigger while I was using my guns; because I have no desire to use both in horrendously janky synchronization, and I never will. AT. ANY. POINT.

I liked the fact that in the "bad" old system, I could control my own blasted block; and in particularly I LOVED that block was hold-and-release; instead of some asinine toggle that remains active until hit again.

I liked the utter absence of a condescending, hand-holding computer-block that gets itself stuck in a loop of trying to block Exploiter Orb's plasma bolts; keeping me from throwing the Thermia at her, or being able to fight any of her thousand, stupid little green Mite sons.

I f***ing LOVED the visceral satisfaction of using Exalted Melees on dozens, even hundreds of foes; and removing the override of my normal weapons by such awesome and mook-shredding mega-melees as Exalted Blade and Hysteria has removed the feeling of power that they gave me. It isn't half as metal to have claws made of pure energy and rip a Grineer's spine out with them when you can no longer directly wield melee weapons in their own dedicated mode; and even less so when I no longer have working color correction for the "berserker haze" of orange for the Hysteria aura. Literally every single time a hit connects with a foe when I use Hysteria, ever since Buried Debts launched, the color correction flickers out and goes back to normal rendering before resuming the orange. As you may have noticed, the Orb Vallis is overall a blue in color from all its ice, and now I'm developing epilepsy. There goes the most fun part of playing Valkyr; and in comes yet more eye fatigue.

I liked stances, and I liked using them only when I was in melee mode. It is not fun to go through the full Winding Claws combo of Swirling Tiger and strike an explosive barrel behind the loot barrel quick melee would have safely hit prior to Buried Debts; thus alerting the whole Grineer Vault when the stupid Regulators get damaged by that same barrel in a Spy node.

I liked pretty much all stances but Sundering Weave and Crossing Snakes, and I doubt that others' feelings were different. Rather than fix these two distinctly clumsy, useless, unimpressive, and slow stances; by giving them combos that actually flowed, and attacks with reach and forward momentum; melee mode was removed altogether, and so was manual block. Now the 98% of stances that were once perfectly good are janky; and even Wise Razor, which is very pretty, is devoid of appeal without the old RMB to pull off its combos, or a dedicated melee mode that lets me actually hold Revenant's cool Sentient great-katana in my hands indefinitely. 

I liked channeling. I genuinely did. It had cool energy effects, it was satisfying to watch foes dissolve into light after death, and its only real problems were its low damage-boost output and poor ability to maintain itself. Rather than change the mechanics to make channeling both satisfying and viable, it was instead removed altogether. Majorly uncool, and yet one more point taken off the "space ninja" aesthetic; to render us all just boring sci-fi gun dudes. I miss my glowing sword trail swirlies almost as much as I miss holding my melee weapons FOR REAL.

Speaking of channeling still, I liked when Life Strike still worked so even my squishy frames could maintain themselves; and I liked exploding my throwing melees, which I now can't do, and takes half the fun out of Glaive and Orvius since Buried Debts.

I liked ground slams that knocked down my foes so I could use finishers; instead of launching them uselessly sky-high to be shot at with guns, in one more example of the "improved" system's chauvinism toward ranged combat.

And more than anything, I liked the diversity in playing styles we used to have when we could use our guns and melees in isolation, instead of an ugly and forcibly-integrated tandem that you foisted upon us without option or alternative.

@[DE]Danielle, and at any other developerss actually willing to listen at Digital Extremes, please, please, please, PLEASE restore things as they were. Make what you've shoved into the game currently be the toggle in options, and since everyone who supports new melee has bragged to me about "finding it more fluid because they're advanced and real players", label that option "Advanced Melee". Find your fixes to the issues it currently has, and let the players who like this fused twitch-fest of passive-melee have it; as something that is turned on instead of the default state of melee combat.

But Lord have mercy, do not make this trainwreck the default state of melee in perpetuity. It is the polar opposite of streamlined and intuitive. It has twice the fiddling 2.0 did, and 1/20th the fun to use. Believe it or not, many of us were just fine and happy with melee; and only really wanted you to give Fang Prime, Pangolin Sword, etc. better stats.

Restore active melee mode, instead of making slicing and dicing a side garnish when it used to be more than a few of us' main mode of game-play and favorite thing in Waframe (especially mine). 

Restore controlled block, and make it hold-release instead of a toggle like the recent "hotfix" half-changed the still auto-triggering block into. We're Tenno, we can defend ourselves. It's not just annoying, it's insulting.

Restore normal RMB in combos, instead of rearranging them or changing their order to further shred and distort play that used to be fun. We want to aim glide while holding greatswords again. Parkour was enhanced by steering with my melee in the old system, not reduced.

Restore holstering, for the sake of sensitive eyes. That teleport-flash of weapons in and out of my hands from my back and hips is extremely infuriating already, and far too saturated and opaque in its energy detailing. If you're all so worried about player critiques that holstering and weapon swap is "slow", then just make the quick-swap inherent and remove mods like Soft Hands, Speed Holster, and Twitch altogether. Problem solved, and it would give just as virtually instant of weapon-switch, without the eye fatigue.

Make ground slams on non-Hammer/Heavy Blade weapons knock down foes again, and not launch them. I want to impale dudes lying on their back again.

More than anything, restore our faith that all of you that work so hard at DE haven't suddenly stopped putting thought into that hard work. 

Let us play the way we choose, instead of forcing us into a newly-prescribed and newly-narrowed set of unappealing controls. People can be Dante from Devil May Cry if they actually want to; but let those of us that are the real melee freaks and formerly used to use it almost exclusively for combat remain Knight Artorias and Executioner Smough in the style of how we play Warframe.

 

Please upvote @Maxim_M_Payne post, surely a toggle can be put to switch to melee again and both modes can exist and everyone happy and no major player bases on either side of the spectrum hurt in any way. 

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3 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-snip-

Basically all of this.

And I want at least some evidence that our concerns are actually being HEARD, and DE aren't just sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "IT'S FINE THEY'LL GET USED TO IT" because the project is somebody's precious baby they'll hear no word against.

Yes. We will get used to it. I am getting used to it. People can get used to living in the arctic, that doesn't make it a good place to live. I hate it as much now as I did when it launched. It has unquestionably worsened my experience, as it has many others. Some people like it, sure! But those people were also happy with how melee worked before. You've pissed off a great amount of people to please some other people who weren't complaining.

Y'get it? I won't claim to have some deep insight into the actual proportions of the two camps, but both camps were perfectly happy before.

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