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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Just now, SilviaS12 said:

have to remember some players are young too. Can't assume everyone will know from a business standpoint.

Reading is taught in kindergarten and grade school. Feel free to think otherwise. I'm out^^

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Just now, Silescere said:

Reading is taught in kindergarten and grade school. Feel free to think otherwise. I'm out^^

a rather selfish way to put it but I guess you are right. let them have seizures because we should expect them to read and all of them to know what particle this and that means in every case.

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3 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

There is more than plenty that needs to be fixed. Constructive criticism is a natural part of feedback. DE is a great company; and they've had very good relations and responses to us in the past; and they quite deservedly have developed a reputation for caring about the players. But after a full week of slogging through this "improved" mire of forcibly-merged combat modes, I have developed very serious doubts that they are listening to any of the concerns raised by players. Add the fact they implemented it without choice or alternative; and it's an alarming suggestion that they just care about our currencies and not our fun. I've come to genuinely love this whole little dorky family of developers and producers; and it would sincerely break my heart if DE is going to devolve into another "AAA" business like Bethesda that takes the money and runs. This genuinely fun space opera should not be mutated and neutered into a Fallout: 76 of sci-fi games.

Everything worked just fine before. Weapon toggling made sense and let us choose and very our tactics. I frankly found, and still find, it far less seizure-inducing, not to mention profoundly satisfying, to have separately-wielded weapon slots. It felt natural to use my guns in a different context then I used a sword the side of a surfboard; a sword that is now only able to be passively wielded. I still can't fathom why weapon-swapping was not just made faster altogether; instead of gutting melee out of the game altogether; since the new "mechanics" reduce it to set dressing that isn't really controllable anymore. Phase One has so far only diminished the fun in both ranged and close combat. I preferred them separately.

A big part of the fun in a video game is the "illusory cliff" effect; successfully selling the impression of physical contact with objects, so that the players' brains link the collision detection with us genuinely touching the thing we see, even though we know it isn't really there. Having a weapon my in-game Warframes actually HELD in melee was a vital part of that satisfying illusion of impact with the flesh and bone of enemies, and I liked seeing my Warframes actually draw their weapons. It looked cool, professional, and classically "warrior".

Now, we have a passively flailed around mess that has no illusion of contact whatsoever, and I found no fun in using; I've given it a week and it's just plain bad. Before I felt like Knight Artorias, the Abyss Watchers, or Slave Knight Gael. I felt like a genuinely nimble and badass greatsword/dagger/staff/polearm/nun-chuck/claw/hammer/etc.-wielding nightmare out of a Grineer's worst nightmares. That was the best feeling in the world, and what sold me on Warframe in the first place. After playing the whole Dark Souls franchise, it was virtually orgasmic to have a game that offered melee combat that made me feel like one of the bosses. Melee used to have the elegance of the aesthetic language we see in Tenno/Orokin tech. I felt like an actual ninja, or a berserker, or any other warrior of your choice; and it was very nice that Warframe (once) gave a choice to the players over whether we played it as purely shooter (not fun), or as a wild hack-and-slash that (used to) have a responsive block. All of this in the past now, stomped into the dirt without option or alternative; the same way that Exploiter Orb trampled the spirit of a rebellion, and all the people in Deck 12. I don't feel like a Tenno whatsoever anymore.

Now, what I do (unfortunately) feel like, is one of the unimaginative, 50-foot-wide, clunky-armored, tiny-headed, watermelon-pauldroned, brick-shaped Space Marines of Warhammer 40,000; those hideous meat slabs with their equally ugly square chainsaw cutlasses. I despise the unimaginative nihilism of that entire setting, and I especially despise the whole revolting, rectangular cathedral aesthetic of the "Imperium of Man". We're Tenno, we FIGHT empires. Sorry to the players who are Astartes-boos, but settings have to have some hope and at least one faction of definite good guys to actually be fun to anyone besides those who have already given up on imagination and life. Warframe should feel like Warframe, NOT 40k; and quite definitely NOT like Devil May Cry. We're space ninja, not canned SPAM blobs with armor that doesn't let them lift their arms above a 90 degree angle; and not edgy vampire dudes with guns we hold incorrectly.

Fusing and jamming together game modes is the opposite of improving combat; or making player experience more fun. It has limited player options. It removes what I enjoyed about Warframe in the first place and convinced me to stay after making an account in 2014; and it's frankly giving the impression that DE's stopped listening altogether. This game used to be something unique and creative in both game-play and world-building. Now are being clumsily shoved through a HALO-shaped hole; and the devs haven't even bothered to respond to any critique of the system. Everyone in the community needs to quit being afraid to voice their criticisms to DE; instead of telling, effectively, dissenting players to shut up and enjoy what isn't enjoyable for users who were mainly melee, and I speak as one of those players. Go call the pigeons outside your window a "vocal minority" if you're going to be the kind of person who does that.

Limiting player option is never good, and especially not this way. For the love of God, DE; make some indication you even care about a sizable group's concerns. Any staff member, just respond. It could be Sheldon in the middle of mixing god knows what noises into new monster sounds in the Foley department, Steve himself eating a bagel on the couch, or Danielle doing mo-cap. But give people a sign. 

 

This person said some of the things I was thinking personally. I should of added my own words in stating that yes the weapon you pulled out was PULLED out LIKE A BOSS now there is nothing. First all my Gen ,Now I have to weigh in.. With this type of controls is this  worth playing any more. I've spent alot of money on this game for others to enjoy (not my self). I state fully to every noob "Welcome to WarFrame the greatest free game in the world" an most my  generals do the same. I cant even enjoy the game at this moment.  this is truly heart breaking.to me... There was no issue, just lot of folks using guns. 

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Just now, (XB1)LV1NarcoticWOLF said:

This person said some of the things I was thinking personally. I should of added my own words in stating that yes the weapon you pulled out was PULLED out LIKE A BOSS now there is nothing. First all my Gen ,Now I have to weigh in.. With this type of controls is this  worth playing any more. I've spent alot of money on this game for others to enjoy (not my self). I state fully to every noob "Welcome to WarFrame the greatest free game in the world" an most my  generals do the same. I cant even enjoy the game at this moment.  this is truly heart breaking.to me... There was no issue, just lot of folks using guns. 

This is exactly how I felt when I saw the new update, and I presume like myself it has brought you to the forums also, like many others that still continue to emerge and crawl from out of the woodwork.

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Having played with the update a bit, I can safely say I side with the majority here on the flaws that have already been stated. In addition, I have a few points of my own.

One. Aiming melee slams is basically impossible with a controller, because you descend so fast you have almost no time to adjust the stick. So that's another useless feature for us, how lovely.

Two. Some of the channeling issues could be fixed by simply adding an indicator in the HUD to show that you're channeling. Won't get lost in the chaos like the effects and noise. Certainly doesn't solve the autoblock issue, but lets you tell at a glance whether or not it's active, if we're being forced into toggling it.

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From a gunblade user perspective I'm enjoying the phase 1 melee. Everything feels nice a smooth. Overall I think nice job. 

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Posted (edited)

So when I run and dodge fast I cant do that with guns out. Nor can it be done in spy missions so you dont accidentally pop of a round. Ive stated this for a year now with anyone I help to get Ivara bp. this is a game changer. I dont understand when folk say smooth?? Im trying to understand it but its just more access to you gun quickly. Aim glide is with a gun now fully unless you op to not use a gun. You glide with more control with only a blade out and faster. I see the ease of the switching clearly but control is gone for moving around for meany in (sensitive areas) and this defeats alot in this game. I cant help all the high folk anymore as its not about me its about helping others. This is a community game right? Well I assist that community and now im afraid I cant. 

Edited by (XB1)LV1NarcoticWOLF
typo
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Please have an option to not insta-swap to gun mode when pressing the aim-down-sights/block button. It's jarring when you're melee-ing around and you end up gliding through your sniper scope to get to the next group of enemies you want to slam. Maybe have an option to be able to manually block again too? Would be nice.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not the biggest fan of the new system (playing on xbox), but am hoping for further refinements and possible changes to what was originally planned in the finished product.

 

Cons:

-  Can no longer run full speed with effective quick melee attacks with polearm weapons (I'm sure other weapons were also effected by this)

-  Alt fire channeling is awkward and not fluid or even possible to quickly toggle mid melee combo unless you enable "Melee with Fire Weapon Input" option, and even then it just feels clunky and unrefined and is inadequate for the use of Life Strike (which I use for all builds)

-  Decisive Judgement's consent decree's finisher is no longer a reliable constant (I'm sure this can be patched and hope that it will be soon)

-  No melee aimglide (yes, I know you can do so with the primary, but if it has a decent amount of magnification it limits field of view making it more difficult to set up directional ground attacks) 

-  Block is automatic (I really consider this a pro and a con, but more so a con.  You have removed control of a previously available feature.  While it is convenient to auto deflect incoming fire, there is never going to be any panic set in on not blocking when I should have, nor can I bullet jump and then block glide while facing backwards deflecting shots while making a hasty retreat)

-  No more feeling like a badass with ideas of calls for "fix bayonets" when drawing out a melee weapon about to unleash hell upon enemies

 

Pros

-  Melee weapon is now instantaneously ready for combos (Quick melee attacks worked fine and all that I would have personally liked to have seen changed is make it so that the original button to draw out melee did not have to be held for as long)

-  Directional ground attacks (as mentioned before, this is hindered by not being able to extend air time in glide to properly aim your attack when using certain weapons)

 

I know there is more to come and I hope it gets better, but this really feels like a step backward and taking something that was already fluid, intuitive, efficient, and fun and turning it into something new for the sake of new when more minute changes could have been made to further refine what was already a well tuned system.  What further irritates me about this is thinking about the hours worked on this that could have been spent elsewhere such as new mission types, a larger assortment of map areas, new enemy types, etc...  Again, I know this is not the finished product and more is to come, but please reconsider the absence of some features that added to capabilities and playstyles such as manually blocking and melee glide.

 

Edit 1: Another idea for a preferred new system is to make it so that you can automatically melee combo while having your firearm as your current equipped weapon but auto switch back to firearm as you would with quick melee, but also retain the option to draw out your melee weapon to keep the ability to manually block and glide in melee so that you still retain both worlds of combat along with a more seamless blend.  

Edit 2: After playing more, I'm disliking this even more.  Running a mission in the Void a Gunner starts firing at me, at first I was a little startled, but I had my melee weapon active so it of course autoblocks the incoming fire and I'm left just thinking "well this is convenient, I remember when I could have done this on my own... but I guess I'm forced to have my hand held now and let an automatic program play out what I originally could have done."  This whole system is reminding me of "Dogfight Mode" from Ace Combat Assault Horizon (if you don't know what it is, it was a feature that allowed your jet to auto-follow with minimal input enemy jets and took away a fair amount of control from the player) and that is not good.  I want to be the one in control and who ultimately succeeds or fails, allow for human error and not be saved by an automatic block feature.

Edited by (XB1)Church367A
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11 minutes ago, gabuchan said:

Please have an option to not insta-swap to gun mode when pressing the aim-down-sights/block button. It's jarring when you're melee-ing around and you end up gliding through your sniper scope to get to the next group of enemies you want to slam. Maybe have an option to be able to manually block again too? Would be nice.

you think thats jarring? try going melee only thinking its all ok and then you scan a cephalon fragment or scan anything, your right mouse click always goes back to scope and stops manual blocking. I tried everything to get the scope unequipped but only fix is a new mission, either abort or complete all retarded gliding with scope.

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2 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

you think thats jarring? try going melee only thinking its all ok and then you scan a cephalon fragment or scan anything, your right mouse click always goes back to scope and stops manual blocking. I tried everything to get the scope unequipped but only fix is a new mission, either abort or complete all retarded gliding with scope.

Wow that's terrible lol. They should just add an option to have the right mouse button NOT switch you out of melee.

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6 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

when a profit business is not catering to their clients/customers/patrons, they lose business and they lose profit/potential profit, do you please the larger portion?

Yes, which is why I'm hoping these complaints don't get listened to.

 

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DE ignoring the problem is the worst option of all.  We want to know your opinion. Tell us something!

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, (NSW)Prootloops said:

Aiming melee slams is basically impossible with a controller, because you descend so fast you have almost no time to adjust the stick. So that's another useless feature for us, how lovely.

With the NSW I can sympathize on this issue, since the form factor when holding it in your hands your right thumb is immediately on the face buttons. If you want to do directional slams, you need to position your thumb from above the face buttons and claw to the right analog stick which is some distance away from any keybind that you had on the face buttons (which could possibly be melee). That’s pretty uncomfortable if you’re not using the joypad.

At least with PS4 and Xb1, or most PC controllers, the right analog stick is positioned below the face buttons fairly close by, near your grip. Here, it works for twitch reactions of directing your camera to do directional slams with a mere flick (I’ve been playing reverse Y-axis since the start of Warframe, so looking down is pushing the right analog up). With NSW, there’s a marginal distance between the analog stick and face buttons to make any of these reactions and could cause physical distress on your hands if you’re not careful.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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Posted (edited)

I just found an issue with this new update relating the Vaykor Sydon (I know... most of you meta mates already forgot about that weapon, but I didn't!)

So I was trying it out just the other day how it interacts with auto-blocking. Nicely charging the stacks up and all..... and then becomes a permanent glowing stick of disappointment. The Radial Blind never happens, no combo helps, no set of keys activate it what so ever.

I do appreciate that you guys don't force us a mandatory casting, which is awesome... but there is no way you can actually utilize this not so powerful but cool feature.

Any fixes soon, like making the weaapon release the Radial Blind with a spin attack like Excal does?

PS: Found the post about the the "Activation through melee channeling". Not the best solution imo, but guess it works ^^/like

Edited by Straxxes

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Posted (edited)

After playing for two weeks with the new melee system, I came to the conclusion that it is disgusting and almost unplayable. Here are my suggestions on how save the situation:

Return:

 

- Return the quick melee attacks. (Without weapon change)
- Return the ability to manually block.
- Return the possibility of controlled gliding with melee weapons.
- Return the possibility of manually melee weapons equipping.

Add:


- Add option to disable auto block.
- Add the ability to quickly change ranged weapons to melee weapons. (In fact, make the current function of the "E" key on a separate button) 
- Add a quick shot of secondary weapons when equipped with the melee weapon. (Without weapon change)
- Add the ability to quickly change melee weapons to ranged weapons.

Proposal for changing the Concentration system:


- Add a new Concentration gauge to the Operator. When the Concentration gauge is filled, the Warframe can be put into Concentration mode. This mode will greatly enhance the Warframe weapons and abilities, and will give the Warframe health regeneration and accelerated shield recovery. (Similar to Devil Trigger from Devil May Cry)

Edited by Scail
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39 minutes ago, Scail said:

After playing for two weeks with the new melee system, I came to the conclusion that it is disgusting and almost unplayable. Here are my suggestions on how save the situation:

Return:

 

- Return the quick melee attacks. (Without weapon change)
- Return the ability to manually block.
- Return the possibility of controlled gliding with melee weapons.
- Return the possibility of manually melee weapons equipping.

Add:


- Add option to disable auto block.
- Add the ability to quickly change ranged weapons to melee weapons. (In fact, make the current function of the "E" key on a separate button) 
- Add a quick shot of secondary weapons when equipped with the melee weapon. (Without weapon change)
- Add the ability to quickly change melee weapons to ranged weapons.

Proposal for changing the Concentration system:


- Add a new Concentration gauge to the Operator. When the Concentration gauge is filled, the Warframe can be put into Concentration mode. This mode will greatly enhance the Warframe weapons and abilities, and will give the Warframe health regeneration and accelerated shield recovery. (Similar to Devil Trigger from Devil May Cry)

Or they can just get everything back to normal and allow us to play again (like last 6 years) and do not waste your time on the forum.

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Ok ok Melee 3.0 works beautifully for the Zenistar, no complaints there... 

 

ZAW HOWEVER,,, Exodia Contagion and Epidemic do not work unless you double or bullet jump then aim down sights an swing your melee weapon then you have to swap back to your gun rinse and repeat making those arcanes now almost a complete waste of time to equip. I use Exodia contagion against the Eidolon to one shot limbs and against Profit taker. It was fun now to use it I have to get tricky. 

 

Current ways to use the Exodia Contagion and Epidemic. 

 

DOUBLE OR BULLET JUMP, AIM DOWN SIGHTS THEN SLASH TO THROW and then land switch to a gun rinse repeat.

That's one way. 

Or

Double or bullet jump, aim down sights of gun and slash your melee then quickly press your fire button for your gun. This keeps the melee weapon from being equipped so you can just jump again and aim and repeat. Still not practical what so ever. Makes killing your self happen much more often due to the delay to throw projectile. They need to fix these mechanics. A double jump or bullet jump and slash is all i should have to do. Not aim down my gun sights to use the arcane once and inconvenience my self to toss it again making the atk speed useless. - ONLY4GIVENONCE ON XBOX ONE. 

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29 минут назад, Snoit сказал:

Or they can just get everything back to normal and allow us to play again (like last 6 years) and do not waste your time on the forum.

True.

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I recently got a Redeemer Prime and have noticed that the charge attacks seem to be getting cancelled by autoblocking. I thought this was supposed to have already been fixed?

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3 hours ago, Snoit said:

DE ignoring the problem is the worst option of all.  We want to know your opinion. Tell us something!

Exactly my thought as well, everyday I check the update news to see if the devs say something about this huge mess, but nothing.

And today in the patch notes they have mentioned a fix about the quick melee ... which is ridiculous since quick melee is gone ...

But I don't think we need to hear the devs to understand what's happening. The players are split into two groups, the ones who enjoy the new melee system and the ones who prefer the old one. Now depending on how you used to play Warframe, this update can change in better or worse your gaming experience. I'm not going to talk about pros and cons, we all know them by now, the point is that now we are all forced to agree and welcome this new melee system, that we like it or not. And this is what I dislike the most.

"But I liked to choose when to draw my melee weapon and when to perform just a quick attack, I also liked to see my warframe equipping the melee weapon with a cool animation and ... "

"Shut up! Now you play for maximum speed and automated controls, everything else doesn't matter"

And then what?  One day we will have Gun 3.0, where you won't need to aim, your warframe will auto aim for you, you just have to click to shoot. Oh and while we're at it, let's not let the players choose when to reload, let's make the warframe reload automatically the gun.

... okay yea I was just ranting, anyway, a possible peaceful solution to this situation is not that hard. If we could have an option to choose which melee system to use in game, every player could simply play the way he prefers!  You like melee 3.0? Excellent!  You don't like it? No problem!  Switch the melee 3.0 system OFF by using this convenient new option!

Or instead of an option, make something up into the game, like when you hit a specific mastery rank level, you are allowed to take a new test, and if you pass it, you will unlock a new way to fight with melee, which is this melee 3.0, and then you can decide to activate or deactivate it.

Whatever it will be, just let us choose the way we want to play!

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Couple issues I had right off the bat:

If I have a primary and melee equipped and I’m carrying something (mobile defense hack tool) i can’t aim glide! If I do, my primary is pulled out and I drop the pickup. That happened several times during the sortie before I figured out what was happening! It actually dropped down a trench and it took a few minutes to try and retrieve it because it kept fading to black and spawning us back at the top.

 

Second issue is, the quick melee is gone! Most of the melee weapons I enjoy using are specifically BECAUSE of the quick melee. They keep your forward movement without stopping you to complete the combo. But now, I’m defaulted to just start the whole combo (very problematic for Sigma & Octantis for instance, since I just fly around with the whole combo and more than half the time miss my intended target). 

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Well further into this sytem and more startign to question if old controls wouldn't be better basis for Melee 3.0 that this wierd stuff, with one of the most recent hotfixes using valkyrs hysteria and then de-casting it causes to be stuck in the animation of holding melee, no other weapon can be used and for some reason also sprinting/rolling is locked too, and it happened twice during one mission, with good latency (below 100) so not fault of lag, i really think that if theese changes will be pushed fowards we can as well scrap exalted melee as thye will be unusable in this new system

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15 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

 

But just to reiterate, combat is more streamlined and flowy as the premise for all of our feedback. Sure. However it’s still obvious that gunplay is taking more precedence than melee with this combination, since both the “Fire Weapon” and “Aim Weapon” will draw your gun and “Melee Attack” will draw your melee weapon. That’s already two button keys over one when comparing gunplay to melee. I’ve made the recommendation several times over the month that if we’re going to make melee and gunplay equal, “Fire Weapon” and “Melee Attack” should be those options, but “Aim Weapon” should be a universal functionality that ties both ADS and Manual Block within the same key. If we’re going to have both ADS and Block on the same key, make manual block have its own respective, comfortable scope to ADS (close to hipfiring). This will solve the loss melee blocking and will remove autoblocking, and will give players more control to block on command when they want how they want if they choose to melee or want to switch to guns on the fly. Quite honestly, blocking as a means of idle-frontal-DR automation is unhealthy, and as players we should really retain this concept of blocking on command as an integral part of the melee experience. Automated block when I was testing was also disruptive when I was doing charged attacks in-mission, so yes it direly needs to be addressed.

Of course, I’ve also advocated for speeding up holster animations as well since this has been a widely critical concept for years. This has been a subject of contention within each patch cycle this game has gone through, and I personally feel this is what Melee 2.9 going into 3.0 should have.

 

I agree with your points, however, I feel that putting gun switch in the same slot as fire gun is a mistake; it not only wastes a shot when switching, it also alerts all nearby hostiles in most cases.

Gun-switching should be tied to the aim button.

That way, manual blocking can be contextual, and tied to the fire gun button whenever the melee weapon is being held by pressing A first.

That, or just tie Blocking to the Contextual Action button, Y in the Switch's case, so that you can block whenever there's nothing around to interact with, and when you're not holding it, it goes back to the weapon or gun you were holding before blocking.

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