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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)

As a founder, closed alpha tester, and deeply devoted fan, I've clearly been around for my fair share of changes.

Good changes, like Movement&Damage 2.0s.

Bad changes like Vay Hek.(joke)

But this change; is perhaps one of the worst changes I have ever seen

 

Thankfully its a VERY easy fix. And I look forward to the other benefits it brings once fixed! :)

 

Why?

The controls, for those of us who understand you can edit key binds, are shot.

 

Example:

My old keybindings where as follows;

~ : Swap to "Melee Mode" [MM]

L-click: Shoot | Melee Attack [MM]

R-click: Aim & Aim Glide | Block & Block Glide [MM]

Middle Mouse: Quick Attack | Toggle channel [MM]

Mouse 5: Alt-Fire Gun

Functionality: Clicks worked for combos and effectively made the fighting seamless at swap.

                                                                 
My 'new' keybindings:

New functions in blue

Removed in red

Conflicts in yellow

~ : Swap to "Melee Mode" [For reference, Fix everything by restoring this as an option. And or making melee mode uninterrupted by aim.]

L-click: Shoot* [ends melee] | Melee Attack (Toggleable option for changing this; But it still sucks.)

R-click: Aim & Aim Glide [ends melee] | Block & Block Glide  Arbitrary required combo button that sometimes ends melee instead.

Middle Mouse: Quick Attack & Toggle Melee | Toggle channel[incompatible placement now]

Mouse 5: Alt-Fire Gun | Toggle Channel

*Shooting in this context also means firing explosives at point blank when you mean to melee crates & things thus killing yourself.

Functionality: While combat could indeed be quicker, never knowing if i'm in or out of melee mode, and the inability to aim glide in melee mode means I lose almost all of my combat awareness and end up blowing myself up, wasting ammo, or meleeing at long distance foes. All of which are clearly bad situations, with none worse than killing yourself in solo runs due to explosives. It also effectively forces me to relearn a system that I feel is at the very core of the game, and losing the valuable skill I've accrued in the other system over years.

                                                                 

In short; This is a simple change, with huge impact. And while I love everything else that has gone on with the overhaul, i feel this missed a mark for those of us who are melee mains. Yes, the gun and power mains of the game will notice only improvements, those who main the weapons in anything other than quick attack mode are sorely neglected. The simple solution is to re-introduce an option to have "Hard toggle" for melee mode, that disables the swapping off of melee mode from click attack and aim. We don't need block, but if we still need the button for combos, we need the button to have no conflicts such as removing our melee weapon.

 

Edited by The-Excalibur-Prime
grammar
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Posted (edited)

I think wukong should have a enhancement where he releases several adaptive/toxic pheromones needles when his house armor or shield is eaten up by bullets, and other specialist conditions such as  snowing  weather or tileset with flames, preview ability Carnage,z just lenhanced by chemical engineering suppressant + poisonous grenades when performing dodges and rolls as an additpassive traits when enemies , or other addaptive team assist, which could react to each tileset or planets physics, if there are no enemies what good can we melee to enhance addrenilereactions, a new bar HUD/a UI that allow tenno to gain interestinglayersmodes during melee, say not entering a command or entering many trigger pet or use energy temporary apply defensive shields, completing movement or rolling gaining strength,speed.

original addaptive weapon enhancements, were he to be a commando a snake eater like konami'smetal gear series producer could get involved solid warframe improvement.

Bekoning to each environment or resources some warframes should adapt biologically to sand, dust, snow, areas to place traps or enhanced radar features after hacking for example,and crouching to activate a new passive or melee,launcher,tech.

 

Edited by (PS4)santospizarro

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In a similar way given weapons could draw from pickups and energy or abilities to add additional functions for no combative, or creativity enhancers without drawing blood.

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Posted (edited)

Can you add the option to switch back to the old melee?

I liked the old melee better for multiple reasons

Edited by (XB1)fire 201511
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As a melee player I reluctantly have to agree with the idea to get rid of the 'melee-only' playstyle. The answers to a ton of enemies' abilities are spread across both ranged and melee mode (Nullies being problematic for melee, eximus fire waves only being avoidable through blocking, etc), so it makes sense to give players an increased ability to access both ranged and melee at once with no switching necessary. That said, the current changes feel like too much of a half-measure. The option to use the fire button for melee is weird when paired with 'aim to switch to gun' and the fact you use the quick melee key to enter melee mode. I also miss quick-melee since it meshed so well with the movement system compared to the root-you-in-place stances, and think the aim button and reload buttons could be made mode-sensitive so that they do useful things for melee when your melee weapon is pulled out, and do their regular thing for ranged when your gun is out.

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As a veteran melee player (with 1500+ hours of melee gameplay) currently I see several flow-breaking issues with mele 2.9998

#1: Unmounting archwing in open world areas (since there is no other way to do so) forcing you into melee mode. It is more of the Archwing issue than the new melee system, but does break the flow especially with slow weapons and "use LMB as melee" option toggled.

Next one is related to the transitioning into the new combo system from the current one. Phase 1 was advertising for "instant gun to melee and melee to gun swap", however the "LMB as melee" just brakes everything down. RMB in theory should sway you to the gun mode, but it is also a trigger for the blocking combos, so it waits to swap until the animation is finished, and that is several seconds even with the faster weapons. Even more annoying is triggering the block-combo with RMB will force-swap you out of the melee mode, once the animation is finished. The wolves are sated and the sheep intact, but after having to swap back over and over again I'm not even taking any guns with me on the melee runs anymore. Doesn't worth the hassle with constant unintended swapping.

Speaking of melee-only. Equipping codex scanner/mining cutter/fishing and then unequipping it with the same hotkey will let you block with RMB if melee is your only weapon, however unequipping it with a melee swing will change RMB to swap back to whatever gear it was until the end of the mission, thus making blocking or melee-glide inaccessible.

I couldn't find "peaceful" way to switch into melee mode without having go through the swing animation. Sometimes I would like my melee out to block, but swapping on the last second and having to wait for the animation to finish makes me take the hit anyway, since blocking is disabled while swinging.

The new system does feel great for gunplay with some melee splashed here and there, however with all the flow-breaking hitches it's not even close for the opposite. If you want to play a melee-based playstyle now, going sword-alone is the only option to avoid all the hitches with unintended behavior and conflicting keybinds.

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The whole thing feels a tad half-baked to put it bluntly.

Auto block is an inconvenience at best ESPECIALLY with gunblades since you cant use your combos since you're constantly blocking so you are forced to shoot the enemy with your rifle etc, even though you have a melee weapon specifically designed to be able to shoot people. Guardian derision also makes no sense now, if you want to use it effectively with someone like nyx you need to go into the mission with only a melee weapon as due to one of the more recent updates that is the only way to re-enable manual blocking. Quick melee being removed is also terrible, from polearms, sword and shield to sparring weapons, you cant just hit someone, no, you have to do a 5 second breakdance which makes you not want to use those weapon types at all if you're trying to be efficient.

on the upsides with specific weapons like katana's, single handed swords, greatswords... well swords in general, the new melee system is pretty fun, although i initially was very angry that E was the main melee key my concerns were soon gone after i discovered you have added in the control options to set melee to M1. HUGE thanks to whoever at de put that in, bless you. switching between gun and blade with swords is easy, quick and looks great. the new slam attack is also fantastic... its just a shame that this new system feels like it wasnt entirely thought out when it came to weapons that relied on their quick attacks to be useful, maybe adding a stance that gave weapons only the old quick attack would resolve those issues but maybe not : /

 

all in all, the rework is a solid 4/10,

has some awesome features, but has too many missing/ anaemic features to really be good.

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Since I have to bang on about it just so it doesn't slip by unnoticed, the RMB combos (most likely due to RMB switch) are also completely unwieldy to use now due to having some sort of cap on how fast you can aim/look so you feel extremely sluggish and clunky when you try and navigate to hit enemies (the RMB weapon switch makes this even worse since it completely breaks your flow).

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Posted (edited)

Dear DE, please bring back the old melee as a toggle like many already suggested along with manual block + quick melee.
As someone who mainly fought through the game with abilities in combination with melee attacks, I hate the new system more by the day. I detest being forced to live with it. It sucks and it is annoying. I have tried for long enough now to make it work, tried to find the good spots (slam attacks) and weigh them against this loss of control. This mutilated mess. Stances that keep you in one place while you slash out like an idiot, even if you let go of the button seconds ago or catapult you over the edge into the void...
Solution? I changed my playstyle to simply shooting everything in the face or nuking it with abilities. Plain boring and simple. I loved the way Warframe worked previously and to have a sliver of fun in battle now, I reduced my melee action to a minimum. It genuinely makes me sad since that was a BIG part of my gameplay before.

Why I write this after voicing my opinion already? I don't want anybody to think "Oh it has been a few weeks now with the new changes and look, the people stopped complaining and grew accustomed to it. It was all just the afraid-of-changes-cry-out.". I hope this really is just a test phase. I just discovered Warframe and came to love it and I don't want to have to ditch it because of something like this.

Edit: And yes, blocking has become a gamble. Instead of pressing a button -timed to i.e. a caustic wave- I now find myself waiting and hoping, my first swing that I am forced to do will be over when that wave hits so I can do what I intended. Not taking a swing, but block.

Edited by Silescere
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Posted (edited)

This autoswitching was unnecessary. Even when playing melee only (no other weapons equipped) and scan something, when I bring back my melee I can't no longer block, since it brings back the scanner.

Please, add the option to choose between old and new system. I, as many others wrote before me, have had to reduce melee combat to minimum.

I was a main Dagger user (farewell, beloved Rakta Dark Dagger), and now I can't perform 2 successful hits to an enemy without having to stop the combo, cause It takes me miles away from the objective.

P.S. Speed Holster asks: "What's my purpose now?"

Edited by -Oni-Bushido-
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Here's a suggestion. As it stands now, the reload button does absolutely nothing while in melee mode. Why not use it for melee too? Going by the default keybindings, hitting E could be your regular hack and slash combo, and hitting R could trigger what used to be your blocking/right-mouse-button combos. This breaks the monotony of just spamming E at different intervals. You could even make up more combos now that you have two buttons to work with. Heck, make it so that holding R in mid air triggers melee glide. Everyone wins lol. All the gunplay is mapped to your mouse, and all the melee is mapped to your keyboard. I think this would be great.

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Posted (edited)

So anyone else find auto-block super annoying? I mean "block" combos are super janky because block no longer exists and it is really disorienting when the combo stops and suddenly you have your primary/secondary instead of your melee out and are ADS. Also auto block cancels some combos taking you out of forward momentum and causing you to be a sitting duck for a few seconds and with gun-blades (at least redeemer prime) auto-block cancels the "heavy attack" which is of course the firing animation, several times I've had auto-block knock me out of firing, and then when I go to fire again the auto-block triggers again... I once had the firing mechanic locked out for a good 10 seconds because of auto-block triggering.

I love the directional slam attacks though, they help a lot.

Edited by Uzkost
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After playing with it for a while, I dislike it for a number of reasons.

First, it trades functionality for auto switching. The inability to fully control when you have your melee out vs your gun is insane. You can't aim glide with your melee which completely is opposite to the idea of more mobility and makes it needlessly more complicated. Then there is a whole other host of issues with your melee functionality such as using block combos.

The next issue comes with stances. Not all stances are created equal or have the same strengths. Some stances are best when using a pause combo, a hold right click combo, or a quick melee. Quick melee in particular makes some horrid stances actually quite strong. This melee rework so far only increases the gap in power between strong stand alone stances and others. 

The slam attack is a hit and miss. It feels so much less punishing to use slam attack as I don't have to spend so long to recover. However with bigger weapons it punishes me if I don't kill the enemy with a slam attack. Last thing I want is to send an enemy far away from me and go chase after them with my melee. The last thing I ever want to do with my melee is force the enemy away from my melee range. I have used my gun far more after the melee rework just because of this.

Slam attacks and charge attacks should NEVER be the bread and butter. They are either counter productive as they send enemies far from your melee, or terribly slow for an unreliable, minor damage boost.

Tone down slam attacks so players don't have to chase enemies across a whole tile to kill or wait for them to fall in range of you.

Rework auto switching. Quick melee made so many other melee weapons worth using due to some horrid combos. Even something like going back to the old system and having a "quick fire" thing while you are holding your melee would be better than this. Or let's see stances/combos get changed and rebalanced. Hint, stances with long pauses/delays and stances that send enemies out of reach are the ones that need love.

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On 2019-03-29 at 5:31 PM, Heidelgard said:

I can't wait for a "use legacy melee" option.

That's the only thing I hope to see in future updates.

Until then, I shall call this Gunframe.

Now now, let's be fair. While I absolutely agree, you aren't being half critical enough. There are several dozen titles this "upgrade" to melee has earned; so out of frustration with DE's complete lack of developer response to any feedback that isn't total praise on Melee 2.9, I think I'll list some.

Also, most of them are corny references to a bunch of other sci-fi, fantasy, and science fantasy works of fiction; but what fun would it be to vent in such a fashion, unless I also self-deprecate by being a total geek? If you can't understand why the fun is gone for me, Heidelgard, and countless others; then at least entertain yourself. Preferably do so by trying to track down every mentioned book/series, movie, game/DLC, webcomic, comic book, myth, and toy line.

  • Meleevangelion 3.0: You (Cannot) Wield This
  • Gungic: The Gunthering - Guns of the Gunswalkers
  • The Entirely Decorative Object in the Stone
  • The Set Dressing of Shannara
  • George R. R. Martin: A Storm of Nothings
  • Philip Pullman: The Un-Subtly Shoved-Aside Knife
  • Dishonored: The Removed Poky Thing of Dunwall
  • GunnsOnly Court
  • Solely Caliber 6
  • BeyBullets
  • No Hack or Slash//Just Shoot
  • The [REDACTED] of Truth
  • Seven Samurai with Just Pistols for Some Reason
  • The Crude, The Bad, and the Ugly
  • Blight of the Valkyr Mains
  • 47 Yakuza, due to a Strange Absence of Ronin
  • Sun Wukong: Journey to the Second Best
  • Witch(No)Blade
  • (Not Allowed) Berserk: The Golden Rage Arc
  • The Giant but Forbidden Claw
  • Final Fantasy VII: Aimbad Children
  • Severed Fist of the North Star
  • Grand Theft Auto-block: Sans Melee
  • "Feature" from the Whack Lagoon
  • Crouching Tiger, Fun-less Venka

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

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15 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Now now, let's be fair. While I absolutely agree, you aren't being half critical enough. There are several dozen titles this "upgrade" to melee has earned; so out of frustration with DE's complete lack of developer response to any feedback that isn't total praise on Melee 2.9, I think I'll list some.

Also, most of them are corny references to a bunch of other sci-fi, fantasy, and science fantasy works of fiction; but what fun would it be to vent in such a fashion, unless I also self-deprecate by being a total geek? If you can't understand why the fun is gone for me, Heidelgard, and countless others; then at least entertain yourself. Preferably do so by trying to track down every mentioned book/series, movie, game/DLC, webcomic, comic book, myth, and toy line.

  • Meleevangelion 3.0: You (Cannot) Wield This
  • Gungic: The Gunthering - Guns of the Gunswalkers
  • The Entirely Decorative Object in the Stone
  • The Set Dressing of Shannara
  • George R. R. Martin: A Storm of Nothings
  • Philip Pullman: The Un-Subtly Shoved-Aside Knife
  • Dishonored: The Removed Poky Thing of Dunwall
  • GunnsOnly Court
  • Solely Caliber 6
  • BeyBullets
  • No Hack or Slash//Just Shoot
  • The [REDACTED] of Truth
  • Seven Samurai with Just Pistols for Some Reason
  • The Crude, The Bad, and the Ugly
  • Blight of the Valkyr Mains
  • 47 Yakuza, due to a Strange Absence of Ronin
  • Sun Wukong: Journey to the Second Best
  • Witch(No)Blade
  • (Not Allowed) Berserk: The Golden Rage Arc
  • The Giant but Forbidden Claw
  • Final Fantasy VII: Aimbad Children
  • Severed Fist of the North Star
  • Grand Theft Auto-block: Sans Melee
  • "Feature" from the Whack Lagoon
  • Crouching Tiger, Fun-less Venka

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Now this is a comment worthy of awards!

I admit that I wasn't being critical enough, but I guess that was your moment to shine, very brilliant indeed!!

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Posted (edited)

Before the update I was becoming a melee weapon only main and I was really enjoying it. Now after the rework I try my best to entirely AVOID using my melee weapon sometimes having it unequipped because it serves no purpose now in my opinion. I have more forms of healing (So I don't need life strike) and if an enemy gets to close when I have a sniper scoped in I can just swap to my pistol and blast them.

My first problem with this update is the complete removal of the F key from swapping to melee. If I want to swap to my melee I don't want to have to watch and wait for my tenno to stop swinging his sword until I can use my melee weapon. Having the quick melee key force you into an animation to use your melee makes the game fell very slow and slow down the tempo versus just holding the F key down while still being able to move.

My second problem with the game is removing aim glide and block from our control. Melee aim glide was very useful for helping close the gap between you and your melee victim but now without that I automatically swap to my gun (When I intended to use my melee) and we are unable to block when we are moving in the air now.

 

For a solution to these problems is give us the option to toggle these features. Give us the option to equip our melee with the F key and the option to block manually and bring back the aim glide feature of melee.

The swapping from melee to your primary/secondary is a good idea if it was triggered by the player hitting there fire button instead of what used to be the block button. This would still let players quickly swap from melee to a primary or secondary along with letting the player still manually block (and aim glide) and not have to wait for a quick melee animation to end simply to use their melee weapon.

 

If anyone in the community has suggestions to patch up my problems I have with the new melee system please feel free to share.

 

TL;DR

Bring back the option to swap to melee with the F key so we can manually equip our melee so our quick melee doesn't slow down our movement. Bring back manual blocking so we can choose when we want to block and slow down our movement and aim glide for melee to help close the gap to melee targets because the new blocking and quick melee system feels slow, clunky, untested and honestly unfinished in my opinion. just because you streamline and simplify a feature doesn't always make it an improved feature.

Edited by Froyopro
Clarification
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Hi!

I wanted to make to submit feedback on the new melee system.

(minor issues):
the new system takes away your ability to block incoming damage to suddenly start shooting/reloading into death, or heavy damage. Some problems I have with the new system include dropping the data mass on aim glide to auto equip to your primary, and then having to run back to pick it up. running back to pick something up on an open world is worse off because if I'm flying in an Archwing during the buried debts event i cannot use any zoom function, unless I'm missing my primary weapon as it will drop anything I'm holding.
 

(personal opinion):

I really don't like how the your melee is tied to your aim bind.
some people might like the quick melee system but there are play style braking feature. For example The Sword and shields main use if for the player to block an attack that would do damage a lot of damage and i end up waiting for the damage to come to me instead of bracing for the damage. there are times when i want to just use melee, and focus on the movement system, but I'm holding a gun out instead of blocking in a attack in a critical moment, for example: a sortie agents a heavy tech gunner/heavy gunner/bombard. My melee allows me to safely go into a situation reliably with little to no damage taken while being on top. Melee weapons are there own thing, and guns I feel have there place but not with a stance mod attached, i feel gun blades should fill that role. channeling has been basically deleted, but the benefits are still there but you gotta do a bit of rebinding, and relearning that feels extremely forced, and i don't have fun with. The main rule for me is don't use a RMB combo unless you only have a melee weapon. for some stances like blind justice it's like writing with your non dominate hand, and most of the combo's are specialized for the right moment. Sometimes it's easier to use a gun, but there are some missions where you need to bring, a gun, or heavily depend on your operator for range. 

(side notes):

I found out if you unequipped all but your melee weapon, most of the old melee system mechanics are still there, like a semi block/Perry animation, but the auto block feature is still around, however if you equip a mining laser the game floods your audio with the first equipping sound of the mining laser when you ads/block when you first have the the melee out. there were to many times when an enemy's knockdown got blocked without player input. I had to rebind the channeling key, so I could use life strike. there seems to be a toggle when you block with the toggled channel enemy's sap all your energy, when your not aware of your melee being toggled, because of the new particle effects.
 
4/2/2019

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps if there is cause for all this to stay, maybe the developers can defend these changes with stats?

Look at the melee stats before.  Look at the melee stats after.  Who are these changes actually for?  Are the people praising it those who used melee consistently for years?  Are they the people who have melee weapons as their "Most Used" equipment?

Or maybe the stats show a decline in melee use?  Maybe the people who used guns before are still using guns now, and the Melee fans are pulling away, causing a drop in melee activity?

Do stats support or contradict these changes?  Surely it has been long enough for a couple weeks comparison, no?

Edited by (PS4)azul86sapphire

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I haven't looked through all previous pages, so pardon me should I "steal someone elses feedback idea".

I find the new ground slams very much not helping the combat flow. The displacement of enemies that comes with it irks me. I cannot just jump somewhere, ground slam and then go at meleeing, no, I have to look around for wherever the enemies flew off to. Please gravity, cooperate. I can either pause the combat to find the new places enemies are and then run around to gather up the enemy kills all around at their new positions, or I can wait til I have landed, feet on the ground, and then go about meleeing normally. I normally choose the second, even if it just ain't fun.

Some other tiny noted issues:

In some missions, mainly excavation, automatic weapon swapping can be confusing. It goes something like this: Wanettedeath shoots power carrier and friends with akstiletto. Wanettedeath picks up power cell and dumps it by excavator. Wanettedeath shoots enemy, but now with the Tigris, cause it doesn't switch back to me secondaries. Like most other things, I can ofc live with it, but a change would be preferred ^_^

Ground slams don't seem to deal as much damage as before (mainly tested out with polearms/staffs), though that's less important to me, and I'm not 100% sure of it.

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Melee and scanners are bugging with block again.

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I love that we have an option to use standard attack buttons for melee.
Very very much appreciated.

I have one suggestion to improve upon this.
Hitting reload to switch back to gun.

Technically, this works already IF your weapon can take a reload. So we're halfway there.

Tapping quick melee switches to melee, tapping reload to switch back to gun feels like the next logical step to me.
Everything else is good! Thank you, DE. The hard work is appreciated.

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... sometimes this makes you just unequip melee altogether.

As mentioned before, having to RMB or forcing a zoom is a bother. Having your 'frame wield your melee after use... means you have to RMB to check if you are using your Primary or Secondary. It can be also disorientating. Yes, a single RMB click doesn't take that long but it kinda defeats the intention of making melee combat having a smoother flow.

Add all that to the existing situation of having your Scanner swapped away whenever you transition out of Operator mode.

It's a step backwards to go with the advances and future improvements.

Perhaps a toggle or some of the solutions already mentioned can be put in place.

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16 hours ago, Wanettedeath said:

 I cannot just jump somewhere, ground slam and then go at meleeing, no, I have to look around for wherever the enemies flew off to. Please gravity, cooperate.

totally for this, just make em fly less. you can increase down time to compensate

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Tried to play with the new updates to melee since the second of it's release, it is just unbearable, the only way to get good gameplay with melee is to equip melee only with no guns, I like to have snipers equipped but no longer can do this, auto switching to guns if I glide is grotesque and disgusting at best, and gliding whilst zooming through the sniper is something I never do or even want to do unless it's some challenge to complete. Even as it is with melee only equipped, I cant use my scanner or fishing equipment as it will auto switch to scanner, something I found to be extremely irritating. The stances finishers are a big horrendous failure with most finishers making you leap right over a cliff or leaping out of the action or battle, this is extremely annoying when trying to defend a prisoner as you rush in to help and bail out on them because of the finishers leading to their demise and a failed mission. Most things about this update is just wrong, It matters not whether it is finished or unfinished, it simply is going in the wrong direction for seamless gameplay. It is not seamless, it is cheap. Things like auto weapon switch and auto block and anything "auto" should be a choice. Not a corner to cut with the explanation that it makes it look better, It does not "flow" and it does not look better. This would be better point blank if it were optional so who ever wants to play with auto switch can play and who ever prefers to switch melee to guns at their command can do so. There are so much players having the same issues and reasonable time has passed to at least say something. Majority of the feedback is obviously unanimous. Why is it so hard to understand?

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