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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Can we get any sort of sign that our concerns are being heard and addressed? We've been using this system for a month (many of us daily) and things aren't getting any better. A lot of people spent a lot of time testing these changes and providing detailed, well reasoned feedback, and from every outward sign it's being ignored. There are fundamental issues here that won't be fixed by juggling or rage mode or whatever else accompanied the half-mumbled "lol i dunno" in today's stream.

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X post from a melee juggling feedback post:

Quote

If juggling and air melee are to be implemented, the least that should be employed is to make it sustainable, and to give it a reason to exist. If we are drawing influence from DMC, then we should be drawing it from DMC5 Nero or even DmC:DmC, and not from Dante. And they should definitely look to more games in the genre. DMC is not exactly well-known for its air combat - sure that's the domain of the highest-end players but even then, the ground is where DMC is arguably at its best. A fair few Spider-man games demonstrate air and ground combat by necessity.

If air melee combat in Warframe is to be successful it must implement ways for it to actually be smoothly integrated into the core loop, instead of being its own thing. For that - it CANNOT be a single-target juggle. Or, well, the mechanics can work on a single beefy target, but it should be designed to work on several. Secondly, special aerial attacks should be implemented instead of the suggested 'just use the normal combos in mid-air'. Air attacks should lock you onto a target and rush you to them with wide attacks to, again, strike several enemies.

The dash should also let you transition into grounded combat swiftly and smoothly, and launching should not be relegated to a single option. Slams should also enable a swift, 2-hit punch of being able to transition back to the ground and then straight into the sky again - Paracesis kind of does this already. Of course, there should also be an option in the air to maintain the combination. I'm talking some means to bring enemies into the air with you from above. DMC's jump cancelling would probably work well in Warframe as well.

Basically, juggling doesn't work so well. Air combat for Melee should be like it is for guns - a natural extension of the same freeform, flowing fighting style the Tenno are known for.

 

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Posted (edited)

Juggling shouldnt even be considered a thing. Warframe is not a rule of cool kind of game. it's very core mechanics and how enemies behave and how levels are designed with very claustrophobic spaces, is seriously NOT indicative for such an attempt. If anything a slightly more serious ground based comboing system would be infinitely better, there are only a handful of tile sets not counting the plains or the vallis that make this idea of juggling even remotely entertaining. if they seriously want to do a better melee system, they should look at other games and NOT just devil may cry esque games. I would seriously recommend a melee system such as vindictus's if they really wanted a melee rework, so long as they drop the idea of trying to force this awkward flow between melee and gun. What is so difficult behind the idea of light melee attack three times followed by a smash for a beneficial, simple but effective and sometimes pretty sweet looking combo. I've heard say that they want slight directional inputs to determine combos which is already a thing with the foreward and back directional movements in some cases, i've heard they want air juggling, but i say we as players, need to actually put out feet down on this. The idea of simpler methods of putting in combos sounded and still sounds great, perhaps holding the smash would be block since it would bring the weapon up into position, get in nice and close, and you can just give the enemy a good ol' krump right to the face and it would feel SATISFYING.

not leave us hanging in the air for god knows how long, being vulnerable to enemy hoards pouring in and deciding they want to shoot the dumb ass hanging in the air. For juggling to even be viable it would need to work like how ash's blade storm used to (and still sorta does if you use teleport) work and put you into an invulnerable state as you unleash mayhem on a single target, which wasn't all the fun, even if it worked decently.


tl;dr DE please please please please consider trying something effective and simple and still cool instead of trying to over complicate a system that is right now garroted and bleeding like a pig.

Edited by MagnumKnight
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MagnumKnight said:

Juggling shouldnt even be considered a thing. Warframe is not a rule of cool kind of game. it's very core mechanics and how enemies behave and how levels are designed with very claustrophobic spaces, is seriously NOT indicative for such an attempt. If anything a slightly more serious ground based comboing system would be infinitely better, there are only a handful of tile sets not counting the plains or the vallis that make this idea of juggling even remotely entertaining. if they seriously want to do a better melee system, they should look at other games and NOT just devil may cry esque games. I would seriously recommend a melee system such as vindictus's if they really wanted a melee rework, so long as they drop the idea of trying to force this awkward flow between melee and gun. What is so difficult behind the idea of light melee attack three times followed by a smash for a beneficial, simple but effective and sometimes pretty sweet looking combo. I've heard say that they want slight directional inputs to determine combos which is already a thing with the foreward and back directional movements in some cases, i've heard they want air juggling, but i say we as players, need to actually put out feet down on this. The idea of simpler methods of putting in combos sounded and still sounds great, perhaps holding the smash would be block since it would bring the weapon up into position, get in nice and close, and you can just give the enemy a good ol' krump right to the face and it would feel SATISFYING.

not leave us hanging in the air for god knows how long, being vulnerable to enemy hoards pouring in and deciding they want to shoot the dumb ass hanging in the air. For juggling to even be viable it would need to work like how ash's blade storm used to (and still sorta does if you use teleport) work and put you into an invulnerable state as you unleash mayhem on a single target, which wasn't all the fun, even if it worked decently.


tl;dr DE please please please please consider trying something effective and simple and still cool instead of trying to over complicate a system that is right now garroted and bleeding like a pig.

PLEASE...

ps: holding on by a strand of spider web

Edited by SilviaS12

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to bad there is no zaw arcane that made the weapon so we can throw it like a glaive or that wolf sledge hammer that would be fun i know there is exodia contagion but that sends a projectile of energy and it needs you to double jump and aim glide(which i do not have a problem with) just thought it would be fun seeing your favorite zaw flying though the air like a glaive(or in this case the hammer) 

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Given some time has gone by, I would like to say that I feel like there should be an optional setting to re-enable "Melee mode". The option would simply have melee function the way it did where pressing the weapon swap key is how you would quickly swap weapons. Telling people to just not equip guns is not ideal as some enemies are immune to warframe abilities and melee attacks are ineffective against some of them or they are completely immune to melee. I played the game with melee as my Primary weapon and use my Primary Gun when my Melee weapon isn't ideal. These changes were clearly not thought of with people who played the game the way I did. I am fine with the removal of animations for weapon swapping, and don't think anything needs to be undone, as this simple option would actually completely satisfy me. As is, the system simply just feels awful all around, and completely unnatural.

I would also like to bring up an issue brought up with the changes, and unsure if someone has brought it up, which also works against the don't equip guns "solution". Gear items such as Scanners are treated as guns, this means when you use gear items you have effectively equipped a gun and can no longer manual block even with no guns equipped [R<B just swaps to that item], and they even override any equipped guns. If I scan, I am forced to E to quick melee, then press F to take out my gun, and the worst part is I go through all the animations of swapping like the old system, if I RMB too early it switches from the gun back to the Scanner/gear item and then I have to once again E, then F to use a gun. I have to do this every single time I use these items.

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I've been adapting to melee 2.9r for some time now, but I would like a few more options that one that just adds a second melee button (which is useless in my current opinion):

-Reintroduce the Melee 2.0 hold-to-swap-to-melee, as an option. Removing this option was pointless unless there's some kind of plan to bring Archguns into the arsenal, bypassing the gear item it requires to summon it. Just using the melee key to equip the melee feels a little weird without a sped-up equip animation. 
--Speaking of Archguns, I would like to see a change to gear disability. The wheel should still be available, and only, say, the scanner items, glyphs, and Archgun gear items should be available. Disabling the gear wheel also disables emotes, restricting communication in scenarios where they would've been useful.

-Please add a second option to the toggle where you can make the 'shoot' key/button melee where it reverts the blocking changes to 2.0's blocking mechanics (revert angle, disable auto-blocking, shoot key in melee causes you to block). Not considering this solution will be detrimental to those who like to use their melee's stances without having to get internally confused with constantly aiming with a gun - it feels wrong and looks weird to aim with a gun while doing melee block-based combos.

-Reintroduce an option to use quick-melee (1st moveset of the weapon).

-Any chance we could use ground melee in Sky-Archwing to some extent?

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Soooo 34 pages of feedback, and no response about our concerns? come on DE

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The melee is still broken.
But everything is fine.
Just keep ignoring us DE.

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Whilst using Ivara Prowl it is extremely difficult to see if channelling is toggled on or off.

Whilst dual wielding secondary and melee channelling is not available, only becoming so if switching to melee only.

Auto blocking prevents charge attacks when under fire. 

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Its BAD just spam the first swing so some stupid combo dosnt go off and stop my foward momentem, anyone with fast swing speed cant do jack with the combos. Removing block butten turned this into a game for babies its lost all variety and fluid movement not that it had much variety to begin with.

TRY TURNING THE MELEE SYSTEM INTO DEVIL MAY CRY 5 ""ENDLESS VARIETY AND FUN""

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On 2019-04-03 at 10:23 PM, SilviaS12 said:

I hate to say it, but I give up. It seems DE does not care, I've tried to play enough and seen way more than enough feedback save for my own to know this is a bad update and it's not going in the right direction either finished or unfinished. For me I will have to cut my losses and uninstall because I don't see where there will even be a resolve even though it is possible for both sides of the fence (to auto block/switch weapon or not to auto block/switch weapon). I wish I were the only one who this affects and I can just leave and it doesn't matter, and I also wish I could say in confidence that I would eat my words, say thank you DE and apologize. However as far as I see it no response, hence no apologies.

 

Melee is dead, and Warframe will die with it.

 

At this point I am willing to sacrifice my entire account and start over, all the platinum and all that I worked so hard to build so far, all my poor kubrows and unhatched eggs, all my weapons, my beloved nikana and my cherished Nidus, my sentimental Ash, My huge collection of mods and endo, my limited 6th anniversary rewards,  everything, just to get back Warframe and melee before the update. 

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Posted (edited)

Given the quirk with auto-blocking, and the loss of air-gliding (it switches to your guns and performs an aim-glide instead), when having primary/secondary weapons equipped aside from a melee weapon, why not just give an option (or bring back the option) to have a toggle for FULL-melee mode.

Manual blocking with melee is possible only when you don't have other weapons equipped - which DE had introduced in a patch after the introduction of the melee phase 1 change.

However, auto-blocking becomes disruptive for players who prefer to have not just a melee-weapon equipped - especially if the melee weapon has a useful charge attack mechanic. The auto-block just outright interrupts the charge attack.

Keep the melee/gun free-flow switch mechanic - it was a good QoL change, imo. However, please re-introduce the FULL-melee toggle back into the game to allow players to have control of their melee options (manual blocking, air gliding with melee - not suddenly switching to an aim glide, etc) when you have primary/secondary weapons in your loadout.

Edited by dbugz
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Please, bring back manual blocking, we can already press "f" to bring our guns out and the ability to shoot to swap back to guns makes going ads while on melee redundant and is awfully counter intuitive. 

The worst part of it all is that these tweaks were intended to make us feel more ninja, but now it's completely impossible to do stuff as simple as aim gliding while blocking with melee. We can't even retreat while blocking since it makes us turn our back on the enemy, removing the benefits of blocking and the way to do it, which used to be manual blocking, now brings out our guns instead. 

We lost a reliable way to get front damage reduction in exchange for an inconsistent system that can make us get stunlocked in a blocking animation in a game where we're supposed to fight hordes of enemies that attack us from every possible angle.

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Valkyr, my fave Warframe has its 4th ability broken, anything that aim glides keeps it on but switches to any other gun rather than Melee. Also, dropping an object by accident happens a lot with this new system. DE... Roll back the changes please, we didn't ask for this, increase the features, DO NOT downgrade it.

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Frankly the only 2 things I've enjoyed with this rework is directional slams and throwing the Zenistar disc without having to swap to melee. I still want to see weapon combos streamlined, but the loss of quick melee and auto-blocking is not good. Auto block ruins the redeemer and sarpa, because you'll stop shooting when ever you get shot at. If you're constantly being hit, you literally cannot react with melee charges. I'd like to see those mechanics made optional if they are going to stay in the game.

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Posted (edited)

I do like some of it. As a gunplay focused player, the seamless back and forth is fine (but quick melee was better for me - quick chop, then right back to my gun without doing anything else). I love the directional slam - that's fun and powerful feeling. 

But I want to be able to not autoblock. I want not to be locked into stance dancing, while still having my stance mods equipped (or give us a blank "+Capacity" mod to bandaid it). I want to be able to throw my toxin projectile from my zaw without aim gliding, like I used to - because it was so much easier to target just on a double jump. I mean, for goodness' sake, that arcane is basically useless now. 

Really, the gains from the new melee do not outweight the losses. It has not made melee a superior experience; it's made it strictly subordinate to gunplay. I think it's just one of those ideas to say "We tried, but it didn't appear to work as well as we thought." 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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We now have 34 pages of people saying that gutting out dedicated melee-mode, taking away manual blocking/melee aim-gliding, and changing how channeling works, are not good things.

34 pages of people saying this isn't working in our favor, and is probably causing a lot of extra work on the dev's side to boot.

 

NO ONE IS WINNING IN THIS SCENARIO.

So, WHY AREN'T THE DEVS RESPONDING TO US ON THESE MATTERS?!

Come on, DE; tell us what you're doing about this!

Please, stop staying silent!

Get into this thread, or make a new announcement thread, and tell us what you're doing in response to these issues!

PLEASE!

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Weapon Swapping Changes Broke Melee Aim Gliding:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, as reading through this huge thread would take forever. I love the melee changes so far, but I have one and only one problem... When my melee weapon is equipped and I aim glide to slow my decent or block incoming fire, my primary or secondary is immediately equipped, taking away any damage mitigation I was getting from parry. Please fix this. Thanks in advance.

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3 hours ago, Flex238 said:

Weapon Swapping Changes Broke Melee Aim Gliding:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, as reading through this huge thread would take forever. I love the melee changes so far, but I have one and only one problem... When my melee weapon is equipped and I aim glide to slow my decent or block incoming fire, my primary or secondary is immediately equipped, taking away any damage mitigation I was getting from parry. Please fix this. Thanks in advance.

That won't happen unless they change the aim button back into manual blocking, when melee weapon is drawn, again.

Which would basically mean just rolling the current changes back to how they once were.

Which I completely support them doing; the new melee system has very little to love compared to how it once worked.

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4 hours ago, Flex238 said:

Weapon Swapping Changes Broke Melee Aim Gliding:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, as reading through this huge thread would take forever. I love the melee changes so far, but I have one and only one problem... When my melee weapon is equipped and I aim glide to slow my decent or block incoming fire, my primary or secondary is immediately equipped, taking away any damage mitigation I was getting from parry. Please fix this. Thanks in advance.

their intentions are that it's is not a glitch, that is their way of "improving" melee itself. and that is makes the gun and the blade "flow". With that said it is obvious I don't like the new update but it is what it is, a cheap looking modification to something that was vastly better before.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, (NSW)Smashbrolink said:

That won't happen unless they change the aim button back into manual blocking, when melee weapon is drawn, again.

You can still manually block if you are standing on the ground while using melee and not get switched to your primary. All they need to do is apply this to aim gliding with melee and problem fixed.

*** Ok, so apparently manual blocking has been removed entirely. I did not notice then until I was playing Valkyr in ESO and accidentally clicked RMB and was taken out of Hysteria, which resulted in my death. Tried to aim glide with Hysteria active and also was taken out of Hysteria and died again. This has got to change. Not being able to aim glide with a melee weapon active is ruining our exalted frames!

Edited by Flex238
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Also found a bug with the final harbinger stance. I have found that using the sigma and octanis with the final harbinger stance and using the hold combo, the last cart wheel like spin can ragdoll enemies so hard and far that they glitch out. I somehow was able to push the wolf out of bounds somewhere and he simply just vanished. Never died, just got pushed/blasted through the map. I was on Lua in a hallway when it happened. His marker (from where I marked him) suddenly vanished as I hit him with the final part of the combo and his little friends were still invincible. Eventually they disappeared. Never found where the wolf went, but of course we didn't even get a drop or points.

Not sure if this has always been around, but still another example of how throwing enemies and ragdolling them isn't a good or desirable thing in most cases.

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