Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[AshenHaze]

Auto-block has too much priority at times, interrupting combos and charge attacks when hit by a stray bullet between them.

Glaive + Secondary is restricted to the basic combo with the glaive, if there are any plans to mix secondary + melee then that really needs some look.

With the new melee what it is, the "right click" combo is a bit of a pain right now because it will automatically put you into gun-mode after you stop pushing E.

Speaking of the current melee + secondary (glaive n gun) why doesn't the glaive block at least a LITTLE damage while you have it out?

Is there any plan to change or adjust the "aim glide" mode for melee?

[Konachibi]

DE, all we're asking is:

1: REPLY TO THIS THREAD!  Just freaking speak instead of burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll all blow over.  IT IS NOT BLOWING OVER!

2: Give us the option to toggle the old melee system in the options menu.  Instead of alienating your customers, give them the options they desire so they can play the way they want to.  Warframe is a game all about options, but you've forced this godawful system on us without any options.  That is why we hate it!

Nobody asked for auto-block.  Absolutely nobody, and you never mentioned anything about an auto-block when you were talking about the melee changes.  If you had mentioned it, we would have told you not to do it, because it ruins the flow of melee combat.  You talk about making gunplay and swordplay flow, but you never stopped to consider the flow that already existed in swordplay that you have now disrupted.

[DoomFruit]

17 hours ago, Deminisis said:

Frankly the only 2 things I've enjoyed with this rework is directional slams and throwing the Zenistar disc without having to swap to melee. I still want to see weapon combos streamlined, but the loss of quick melee and auto-blocking is not good. Auto block ruins the redeemer and sarpa, because you'll stop shooting when ever you get shot at. If you're constantly being hit, you literally cannot react with melee charges. I'd like to see those mechanics made optional if they are going to stay in the game.

(emphasis mine) Actually, this should have been possible before, and it's the reason why I never used the Zenistar or the Sancti Magistar (because seriously, #*!% dedicated melee mode). Glaives and gunblades could be charge attacked in quick melee mode just fine. I do not know why no other melee weapon could do charge strikes in quick mode.

In fact, they were actually in a much better position right back at the beginning of melee 2.0. At release, if you tapped the melee button you did a quick swing and if you held it down you started charging a shot or throw immediately. At some point later on, for some utterly incomprehensible reason, they forced glaives and gunblades to swing once and then start the charging process - even if you were holding down the button all the time. I have no idea why this was done. The old system worked just fine.

Then there's all the other nerfs as well (no longer able to aim while charging to tighten redeemer pellet spread, huge damage dropoff for gunblade shots, can't stick the redeemer through a nullicancer bubble and shoot him inside any more, glaives no longer went through nullicancer bubbles). They were already pretty mediocre as actual melee weapons (eg. orthos prime, dragon nikana, galatine all existed back then and were much better in actual melee combat), so I suppose someone there didn't like their existence and decided that they shouldn't be used any more.

[Snoit]

2 hours ago, Konachibi said:

DE, all we're asking is:

1: REPLY TO THIS THREAD!  Just freaking speak instead of burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll all blow over.  IT IS NOT BLOWING OVER!

2: Give us the option to toggle the old melee system in the options menu.  Instead of alienating your customers, give them the options they desire so they can play the way they want to.  Warframe is a game all about options, but you've forced this godawful system on us without any options.  That is why we hate it!

Nobody asked for auto-block.  Absolutely nobody, and you never mentioned anything about an auto-block when you were talking about the melee changes.  If you had mentioned it, we would have told you not to do it, because it ruins the flow of melee combat.  You talk about making gunplay and swordplay flow, but you never stopped to consider the flow that already existed in swordplay that you have now disrupted.

So true.

[SilviaS12]

19 hours ago, Konachibi said:

DE, all we're asking is:

1: REPLY TO THIS THREAD!  Just freaking speak instead of burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll all blow over.  IT IS NOT BLOWING OVER!

2: Give us the option to toggle the old melee system in the options menu.  Instead of alienating your customers, give them the options they desire so they can play the way they want to.  Warframe is a game all about options, but you've forced this godawful system on us without any options.  That is why we hate it!

Nobody asked for auto-block.  Absolutely nobody, and you never mentioned anything about an auto-block when you were talking about the melee changes.  If you had mentioned it, we would have told you not to do it, because it ruins the flow of melee combat.  You talk about making gunplay and swordplay flow, but you never stopped to consider the flow that already existed in swordplay that you have now disrupted.

the same mistake blizzard made, did something no one asked for, but this is worse, this "melee" update did not improve melee at all, it changed the core gameplay totally, changing the game into a glitchy dmc imitation with limitations. No one wants a dmc they can simply play dmc. Rip Warframe.

Edited April 10, 2019 by SilviaS12

[DeltaPangaea]

2 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

the same mistake blizzard made, did someone no one asked for, but this is worse, this "melee" update did not improve melee at all, it changed the core gameplay totally, changing the game into a glitchy dmc imitation with limitations. No one wants a dmc they can simply play dmc. Rip Warframe.

It isn't even DMC, it's like they're trying to turn Warframe into a game that it isn't because they like that game right now.

I mean if they wanna add juggling and stuff fine, but don't butcher what you already have to get there.

[Proto034]

Issue: Activating or deactivating exalted melee weapons resets your currently equipped range weapon to the primary. Please change in the next update. If I have my secondary equipped at the time I toggle my exalted melee, I should expect my shoot button to fire my secondary.

[Maxim_M_Payne]

On 2019-04-05 at 4:25 PM, Gene_Freak said:

Can we get any sort of sign that our concerns are being heard and addressed? We've been using this system for a month (many of us daily) and things aren't getting any better. A lot of people spent a lot of time testing these changes and providing detailed, well reasoned feedback, and from every outward sign it's being ignored. There are fundamental issues here that won't be fixed by juggling or rage mode or whatever else accompanied the half-mumbled "lol i dunno" in today's stream.

On 2019-04-07 at 7:03 AM, (PS4)saniglenn said:

The hell are you doing, DE?
We liked Warframe, not whatever game you're trying to make it.

21 hours ago, (NSW)Smashbrolink said:

We now have 34 pages of people saying that gutting out dedicated melee-mode, taking away manual blocking/melee aim-gliding, and changing how channeling works, are not good things.

17 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

it is what it is, a cheap looking modification to something that was vastly better before.

I AM SORRY, OPERATOR DIGITAL EXTREMES. The tedium is free now. I can't stop it. You don't want to. - Not Jordas, but basically me.

It's been a month. I've tried not to lose it, but I am ready to boil over. No more courteous humility, we've reached a stage of bad decisions and ripped-out fun where the only feedback option remaining to a player is a full-on rant. I'm not going to strongly swear, I'm not going to curse your bloodlines; but I want to make it abundantly clear that this was a bad change, I am not alone in thinking it is objectively bad, I will never accept it as the new norm, and we need at least some sign you even look at the Forums from your headquarters in Ontario, Canada. I am typing these words from Idaho, USA; and in a digital age, there is no excuse for even that distance resulting in a delayed or absent response to community concerns.

To this end, I'm tagging as many staff members as I can in the hopes even one of you will actually read the thread, even knowing it will make this already long post longer still. I'm tired, I'm frustrated, I'm not having fun, I'm a bit angry, and to be perfectly honest Phase One stinks. I have zero remaining confidence that future changes are going to "improve melee" when you roll out whatever self-performing passive-animation is the full "3.0". You've already torn away what made melee melee and Warframe Warframe; and to add insult to injury, I'm no longer allowed the simple privilege of controlling my own stupid blocking. I'm frankly a bit sad, and the trust I have in this company as a community member, trust built up over years, is fading. We like you guys, but this behavior is sincerely alarming. So, without hope for an actual answer, I call into the unresponsive void. At least the other Void gave me Argon Crystals...

@[DE]Adam @[DE]Aidan @[DE]Brian @[DE]Charly @[DE]Danielle @[DE]Elise @[DE]Fernanda @[DE]Foxxehh @[DE]Francine @[DE]George @[DE]Glen @[DE]Helen @[DE]Hugo @[DE]Hunter @[DE]JacobB @[DE]Kanna @[DE]Karina @[DE]Kary @[DE]KeeDoo @[DE]Lasse @[DE]Leon @[DE]Lesley @[DE]Liane @[DE]Linkski @[DE]Mag @[DE]Marcus @[DE]Mark @[DE]Matt @[DE]MattD @[DE]Megan @[DE]Nathan @[DE]Onur @[DE]Pablo @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Sandra @[DE]Sarah @[DE]ShervinG @[DE]Tayler @[DE]Taylor @[DE]Tiago @[DE]Tim @[DE]Tomasz @[DE]Vicky @[DE]Vladimir @[DE]warren @[DE]Willem @[DE]Xander @[DE]Yidan @[DE]Yun @[DE]Zorro

If that didn't alert someone, nothing will.

I've tried so hard to give the new system a chance, but after more than a month with this trash-fire shoved rudely into the place of what was once my favorite and primary play-style; my patience has completely run out. Melee used to make up 90% of my combat, and I was quite fine with that; now I've been actively been avoiding using guns, to try and recapture a tiny fragment of when Warframe was still fun;  when it still made me feel like an actual "space ninja".

A ninja. Not space cowboys, not space gangbangers, not space marines, not space Mafia or Gopniks, and definitely not space soldiers. Ninja. Warriors. People for whom blades are more than a decoration. I once liked Warframe, because it actually let me use a greatsword and longbow; even in gun-filled science-fiction setting. It once gave me a personal choice, and I fully and truly loved that high-tech anachronism.

That choice is gone now, and so is ANY motivation I may have had to acquire War, the Wolf Sledge, Tipedo Prime, Korrudo, or future melee weapons. DE, you can't ruin an entire mode of gameplay and deliberately narrow player choice; and then expect me to want more of the thing you took the fun completely out of using. 

I've got to agree with every other user I've quoted. I flat out hate the "improved" melee system; and it's singular improvement was the new elemental effects (and the ability for energy to finally color those elemental effects). 

I hate it, so, so, so very much. I hate the "better" melee because of the objective clumsiness of the new controls; the downgrade it presents to the enhancement of parkour melee once possessed; and in particular because of the unwanted visual presence of that accursed, irritating, seizure-inducing energy flash where once melee had a proper holstering animation; an animation that for some arbitrary reason, guns get to retain, even as you shove this neon-bright flicker into my eyes like so many shards of broken digital glass. 

You've more or less been ignoring the players for a month; and despite forum rules, I am finding it very hard to give positive feedback. My politeness currently extends only to refraining from swearing; and stating, "Please undo the mess you've made, if you truly have any regard for us". Every day, I get a little more certain that you don't.

 

The list of things to hate about our shiny, useless, glitzy, twitchy new melee just keeps growing; and my feelings are NOT going to change. To elaborate:

 

• I'm not allowed to hold my own weapons in my own hands, and see my Warframe actually pull them out; and now melee combat feels as intangible and indirect as a promise whispered by a fairy. Removing the dedicated mode for melee combat was the worst decision I have seen this company make since Ember's "deluxe" skin.
• Channeling doesn't work. Period. Despite everything you claim about the new controls, it never activates at all. Whether in motion, holding still, rebound back on to mouse buttons, or kept on the alternate fire key as you moved it; it just isn't working IT. DOESN'T. WORK. EVER. It's not like I used Life Strike, or anything. This is, by all means, totally not something that messed up the build on my Exalted Blade.
• Patching in dual energy for Forma'ed items somehow de-saturated energy color altogether on abilities and projectiles; even when you set both slots to the same color. My Valkyr Talons are now a feeble and sad washed-out pastel blue; where once they were cyan. My Ember Prime's Mohawk looks more like sublimating creamsicle than a fire. My Ignis Wraith creates depressingly half-colored ghost farts. Exalted Blades has a handful of wispy energy coils where once it seemed to be sheathed in light.
• As if to compensate for this de-saturation, melee weapon trails and slam attack particles have both been painfully bright since Buried Debts. The August Mesto Combo of Tempo Royale has gone from being a fun, acrobatic greatsword attack; to being a force more eye-straining than a supernova as the final wave erupts with searing opacity and bloom levels.
• Silva & Aegis Prime's holstering of the mace is now even more misaligned. Somehow, the changes from updates managed to make it jut out still further, and at an even worse angle.
• Hysteria flickers literally every single time I hit something in Exalted Weapon mode.
• Exalted Weapons no longer override normal weapons, which removes their prior feeling of power and makes them unsatisfying to wield. They also randomly stop channeling from seemingly innocuous actions like sprinting, reload, or the lovely auto-block that no asked for triggering and trying to stop oh-so-deadly attacks like Nauseous Crawler vomit.
• Automatic block is a condescending and pointless change that removed player control of their own actions, gutted aim-glide, and ruined Stances.
• In general, melee has been reduced to a decoration in favor of pushing a gun-oriented play-style upon players.
• Despite the above, several "improved" melee changes have messed up gun-play as well. For the completely random players that do have usable channeling, alternate fire no longer works; the direct inverse of my problem. Auto-block will interrupt weapon aiming in the same asinine way that it ruined aim-gliding and Stance combos.

   

I'm sorry to have blown up like this, but I'm  getting genuinely sick and tired of the developer silence about restoring usable and actually fun melee combat. This isn't enjoyable, this doesn't work, and it's proving quite the eyesore. 

This is Warframe, not Bulletframe. If you wanted to make a boring space shooter, of the kind that are already dime a dozen, then why did you even bother putting in this level of imagination? Five years spent enjoying myself quite legitimately with my numerous prime melees, and then you had to foist the most downgrading update ever upon the community and the game. I haven't had fun since Buried Debts. I didn't have fun even during Buried Debts. From my Scindo to my Dual Raza; you managed to turn a formerly viable tactic into ugly and un-steerable set dressing. Nice job there, DE.

Make a single, simple, easy click activate channeling again. Give me back melee as a dedicated mode. Restore melee aim-gliding. Allow us to toggle aim correctly with RMB again, and make RMB hold-and-release as well as something we consciously control again, so RMB-involving combos and damage block actually work. Keep weapons segregated instead of fusing together the Gameplay Centipede by stitching weapon slots together mouth to anus. Guns are janky to use when perpetually taped to a knife, and a knife is no fun at all to use when it is a permanent side decoration to a gun.

THE. OLD. SYSTEM. WORKED. FINE.

You literally could have and SHOULD HAVE just made weapon swap inherently three times faster; and changed all the "holster speed" mods to give a new, different bonus.  Instead of making combat flow better, these changes have made ranged and melee both tedious; when before they were both separated, fun to use, and able to be chosen between. 

There was no reason to gut melee. Removing player control of their own damn block, and removing the ability to aim-glide mid-air, even in melee, was an outright sin. Stances don't work. Warframe just isn't Warframe.

There's little interest left for me to play, and once I have the Saturn Six Armor from this last rank of Nightwave, I'll lose that tiny smidgen altogether. You've ignored half a decade of actually fun gameplay to shove us all through a HALO-shaped hole without any choice or alternative.

And now, you're blatantly ignoring players when we tell you this is a downgrade, all to keep pushing Melee 2.9 as some glorious new perfection; so clearly this is some staff member's pet project. I'm gonna be frank: it's a diseased and miserable pet, it will never get better, and you should put it down while it's still a juvenile. 

If this is just Phase One of "improvements", then I'm already just glad and eager to hear how you will somehow make melee combat even worse than you've already mutated it into. What's next, visionaries? Removing stances altogether? The slicing and dicing and crushing and stabbing performing itself, alongside the auto-blocking, so the game flat-out becomes your vacuum for our money; one that we don't actually get to play? Guns that are computer controlled? The whole game becoming a sh*tty self-running IOS "game" style simulation that we have no input into? That's what you're paving the way for, folks.

You've done many wonderful things, DE, but nothing during or since Buried Debts (except additional customization options) has been among them.

 

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

11 hours ago, Konachibi said:

DE, all we're asking is:

1: REPLY TO THIS THREAD!  Just freaking speak instead of burying your head in the sand and hoping it'll all blow over.  IT IS NOT BLOWING OVER!

2: Give us the option to toggle the old melee system in the options menu.  Instead of alienating your customers, give them the options they desire so they can play the way they want to.  Warframe is a game all about options, but you've forced this godawful system on us without any options.  That is why we hate it!

Nobody asked for auto-block.  Absolutely nobody, and you never mentioned anything about an auto-block when you were talking about the melee changes.  If you had mentioned it, we would have told you not to do it, because it ruins the flow of melee combat.  You talk about making gunplay and swordplay flow, but you never stopped to consider the flow that already existed in swordplay that you have now disrupted.

We do all recognise that this is merely Phase 1 of changes, and that some of these issues will hopefully be resolved once the full Melee 3.0 (or whatever we're at now) is completed and implemented. My point is that, unless the full system restores something very much like quick melee if not quick melee itself, AND removes the weird stops and starts in every Stance combo, AND stops the Auto-block from interrupting combos as well as aiming, AND makes sure that some Stance combos don't lock your legs into the animation while others don't, AND makes clear which gun you last had equipped, AND fix the issue of dropping mission items (like Excavation power cells and Mobile Defence datamasses) when gliding because it turns into Aim Gliding, then maybe, and only maybe, will it be a good system. But right now, halfway between two systems, the older of which many people including myself thought was working mostly fine as it was, I honestly don't think that the full Melee 3.0 will be as functional as Melee 2.5 or whatever you were calling it. I don't think that's a video game I want to play.

I discovered another issue. I haven't seen it mentioned yet but I haven't read every page of this thread and I'm certain other people have had this problem. I've gotten used to never using Synthesis traps, so I'll just kill nearby enemies and then use an ability or my slam attack to hold the Synthesis target still enough so I can scan them. Once Riven mods came out, that was even one of the potential challenges to unlock one. I hope it isn't any more, because using melee in any way while pursuing a Synthesis target de-equips the scanner. Every time. So if you used melee or fired any gun to defend yourself while chasing the target, you will have to stop, pull up your menu and equip the scanner again. I had a similar issue with breaking crates while also trying to scan plants on Earth. Keeping Grineer off my back while I get the scan is difficult when I have to abandon the scanning to fight and then return to try again. And if you melee open a box while you were chasing a Synthesis target, out of habit, that's another full stop and trip to the quick-select menu. Breaking boxes while I passed by was an instinct that this game honed over all these years, and now I have to remind myself of the times that I can and cannot just melee whatever I want...

That's something that we really need to remember, too, about the melee system in Warframe: you use melee to open boxes almost as often as you're using it for combat. The first or second swing of most Stances are slower than the quick melee version, and if I'm opening boxes in a hurry I'll find myself doing acrobatic flips and jumps that slow the process way down and allow enemies to catch up. 10/10 for style, Tenno, but 0/10 for actually hitting what you were trying to hit, quickly and efficiently, that was directly in front of you.

I feel bad for having so many problems with this system, because if the enthusiasm of the blurb in the patch notes is any indication, then DE was pretty excited and confident about the changes. But I can't wave away so many problems that I'm having whenever I try to melee anything. It's a constant reminder. Maybe if I hadn't gotten used to a better system and had only ever used melee the way it is now then I may not have even conceived of ways to make it more clean and efficient. But I just need my melee to be simple and reliable in a firefight, rather than be one more thing I have to keep track of and work around just to kill basic enemies.

[(NSW)Smashbrolink]

On 2019-04-08 at 9:36 PM, Flex238 said:

You can still manually block if you are standing on the ground while using melee and not get switched to your primary. All they need to do is apply this to aim gliding with melee and problem fixed.

*** Ok, so apparently manual blocking has been removed entirely. I did not notice then until I was playing Valkyr in ESO and accidentally clicked RMB and was taken out of Hysteria, which resulted in my death. Tried to aim glide with Hysteria active and also was taken out of Hysteria and died again. This has got to change. Not being able to aim glide with a melee weapon active is ruining our exalted frames!

Told ya so.😂

But yeah, best solution is to give us a toggle between classic and new Melee.

Second best would be to just roll back the control changes but keep the switch-speed benefit.

[DeltaPangaea]

Also I kind of preferred when elemental effects on enemies had their own color so I could tell what effect was actually on them. Now it's all just 'something, I guess' Enemy corroded? Poisoned? Radiated? I can't bloody tell, you tell me.

Am I alone in this?

[KaronaFalseGod]

Wow, the stanceless (Quick Melee) Polearm attack still pauses movement? I took a three-week break hoping they would change it back. I think I'm just straight up not going to play this game until it is reverted. I used Polearm almost exclusively and these forced combos suck all the mobility and fun out of it.

[DoomFruit]

3 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Also I kind of preferred when elemental effects on enemies had their own color so I could tell what effect was actually on them. Now it's all just 'something, I guess' Enemy corroded? Poisoned? Radiated? I can't bloody tell, you tell me.

Am I alone in this?

You're not alone with that, I hate procs being forced to your weapon's energy colour as well. They actually still have their own separate colours if you leave the energy colour of your weapon as the default, but that defeats the point here. It would have been a perfect use of the secondary energy colour option - leave that blank for proc original and different colours, set it to colour all your procs that way, but this wasn't done.

[TenchuTheWolf]

After a good amount of time testing multiple melee weapons and the general changes. Everything feels better for the most part. The swap back to primary/secondary weapons while aim gliding is a bit weird, but I'm sure that will get worked out.

The things I hope for and look forward to are:

• Normalized weapon ranges
• Stat rework/rebalance
• Weapon combo usage being more convenient as some of the combinations are fairly annoying to use when your attack speed scales upwards heavily.
• Ninja Demon Mode~

Thanks for all the hard work. 😄

[Loza03]

I think that the rebalance need to include rebalances to Combo multiplier, base damage and the like because good lord that is just... spaghetti design.

"Hey what if we make a class of weapon that's fundamentally weaker than guns by virtue of needing to be in melee range have ludicrously low DPS at base... and then make it good by adding all the multipliers."

When an MR 14, best of the best weapon (Gram Prime) has the same base damage as a literal noob gun you buy for Credits (MK1-Strun), there is something sincerely wrong with your balance system.

It should probably be relatively near the 'Kill in a few hits' by default instead of needing to build to that because... it's melee. Getting in close is not healthy in a shooter game and having to wait for your weapon to be useful at such risk is just poor design.

And saying again from the last time I said it, auto block's no good. I'm not too terribly hurt by it, but I fully understand why so many people hate it and it is still worse than the old system.

 

On the plus side, looking forward to the potential for a melee system designed with the speed of Movement 2.0 in mind (which Melee 2.0 wasn't) and I'm always a fan of Devil Trigger like abilities.

[sorcer3r]

Please:

Press single block and hold -> melee block / aim glide

Double click block -> primary/secondary zoom

[Maxim_M_Payne]

^The same base damage?! MK-1 Braton has 18 base damage; Gram Prime has 180. Does your brain delete 3rd digits in the numbers it reads off the Wiki? That is literally ten times the damage of the rifle.

Fundamentally weaker? What's fundamentally weaker is both ranged and melee combat; ever since they got stapled together into one useless wreck. If you had issues reaching a foe, it was because you weren't using parkour/sprinting/air attacks to ninja your way over to the opponent in conjunction with melee; as was the whole "space ninja" point. At least, when we still had an aim-glide that worked on all three weapons; a dedicated melee combat mode; and an RMB that still did anything; that was the point. 

The only flaws the old, usable system had were the poor reach of quick attacks and a lack of forward movement across all Stances.

Rather than address these two minor problems; DE has opted to remove the combat style altogether, destroy the mechanics of what was useful and actually fun to use about melee, and bury their head in the sand in regards to "hearing" our criticism. 

But by all means, cite incorrect numbers, to continue their false impression as the developers that they "improved" melee with this series of changes.

I totally am just LOVING having:

-Slam attacks that uselessly "juggle" enemies so they get launched 2000 feet away from me and stand back up before I can ever use finishers on them.

-Channeling that now completely fails to activate, no matter what control scheme I use; in motion or holding still, literally nothing ever triggers. Life Strike gives my Excalibur such help on Exalted Blade's build now.

-Weapon trails and slam particles that, rather than being their prior, pleasing mixture of transparency and glowing-ness, are now hideously opaque; and brighter than Gohan entering Super Saiyan 2. Not like I used my eyes; or that this ugliness totally removes any remaining desire to use what used to be my favorite weapon category...

-Exalted Weapons that now get interrupted by virtually anything; as well as no longer overriding normal weapons, so they've lost their satisfaction and feeling of power. It's SO fun to go from being Wolverine as Valkyr, Robin Hood as Ivara, JoJo as Baruuk, Kenpachi Zaraki as Excalibur, and himself as Wukong; to a new, neutered form of all of the above, one that gives me the "convenience" of STOPPING ALTOGETHER; so that I can swap rampaging with an actually cool weapon for firing NORMAL, BORING GUNS THAT ARE ALREADY IN EVERY VIDEO GAME ON EARTH. Totally asked for that, DE.

-Hysteria's orange "berserker haze" glitching out, and stopping the color correction VFX; every time I hit an opponent. Every. Single. Time. It flickers back to normal graphics with each and every hit now. Wolverine Mode is now Epilepsy Simulator 2019. Thanks for that.

-The complete removal of full-on melee, controllable blocking, and easy use of RMB-involving Stance combos.

 

If it wasn't abundantly clear, this is sarcasm.

I've run out of both enjoyment and patience. I'm sick of my playing style being killed, I can't enjoy myself anymore, I'm angry with DE; and I am positively exhausted with community members (especially the fricking Reddit users) either circlejerking and bootlicking about how this is "better" and "perfect" because DEVULH MAAAI KRAYE JUST LAIK MA ANIMU LAWL, or giving false data like you did; so as to falsely complain that melee "was always junk".

I am done with Warframe in terms of participation; I will now solely devote myself to Captura stating my undying hatred of this "superior" playstyle. I want holsters. I want faster holsters that still use the old animation; rather than their replacement by an ugly-as-Hell energy flicker. I want the simple pleasure of ACTUALLY HOLDING my beloved Dual Raza again. I want to channel again. I want weapon trails and slam attack particles to NOT give me eye cancer again. I want to actually control my own block and not get stuck in a "deflection loop" that keeps me from firing Gunblades.

I'm just so utterly sick of it all. There's no "ninja" left in Warframe, we're just a boring cookie-cutter space gun game dudes now. Congrats, DE; you literally devolved what was fun about your once-imaginative game into a clone of Destiny, despite predating and (formerly) being more creative than it.

What's next, lootboxes? A new planet that's EPICGAMESEXCLUSIVEtm? Firing Keith Thompson from the art team? Kicking out George Spanos and Keith Power from the music department, when they literally invented the sound of the game?

I don't have hope for the future, and it's abundantly clear DE intends to treat players like we're Solari and they're the Corpus. Until there's any sign otherwise or legitimate acknowledgment of melee-main players' complaints; I stand by that accusation. I've lost faith in the product; and also in the players' courage to actually criticize you all when you butcher your own game.

[SilviaS12]

14 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

^The same base damage?! MK-1 Braton has 18 base damage; Gram Prime has 180. Does your brain delete 3rd digits in the numbers it reads off the Wiki? That is literally ten times the damage of the rifle.

Fundamentally weaker? What's fundamentally weaker is both ranged and melee combat; ever since they got stapled together into one useless wreck. If you had issues reaching a foe, it was because you weren't using parkour/sprinting/air attacks to ninja your way over to the opponent in conjunction with melee; as was the whole "space ninja" point. At least, when we still had an aim-glide that worked on all three weapons; a dedicated melee combat mode; and an RMB that still did anything; that was the point. 

The only flaws the old, usable system had were the poor reach of quick attacks and a lack of forward movement across all Stances.

Rather than address these two minor problems; DE has opted to remove the combat style altogether, destroy the mechanics of what was useful and actually fun to use about melee, and bury their head in the sand in regards to "hearing" our criticism. 

But by all means, cite incorrect numbers, to continue their false impression as the developers that they "improved" melee with this series of changes.

I totally am just LOVING having:

-Slam attacks that uselessly "juggle" enemies so they get launched 2000 feet away from me and stand back up before I can ever use finishers on them.

-Channeling that now completely fails to activate, no matter what control scheme I use; in motion or holding still, literally nothing ever triggers. Life Strike gives my Excalibur such help on Exalted Blade's build now.

-Weapon trails and slam particles that, rather than being their prior, pleasing mixture of transparency and glowing-ness, are now hideously opaque; and brighter than Gohan entering Super Saiyan 2. Not like I used my eyes; or that this ugliness totally removes any remaining desire to use what used to be my favorite weapon category...

-Exalted Weapons that now get interrupted by virtually anything; as well as no longer overriding normal weapons, so they've lost their satisfaction and feeling of power. It's SO fun to go from being Wolverine as Valkyr, Robin Hood as Ivara, JoJo as Baruuk, Kenpachi Zaraki as Excalibur, and himself as Wukong; to a new, neutered form of all of the above, one that gives me the "convenience" of STOPPING ALTOGETHER; so that I can swap rampaging with an actually cool weapon for firing NORMAL, BORING GUNS THAT ARE ALREADY IN EVERY VIDEO GAME ON EARTH. Totally asked for that, DE.

-Hysteria's orange "berserker haze" glitching out, and stopping the color correction VFX; every time I hit an opponent. Every. Single. Time. It flickers back to normal graphics with each and every hit now. Wolverine Mode is now Epilepsy Simulator 2019. Thanks for that.

-The complete removal of full-on melee, controllable blocking, and easy use of RMB-involving Stance combos.

 

If it wasn't abundantly clear, this is sarcasm.

I've run out of both enjoyment and patience. I'm sick of my playing style being killed, I can't enjoy myself anymore, I'm angry with DE; and I am positively exhausted with community members (especially the fricking Reddit users) either circlejerking and bootlicking about how this is "better" and "perfect" because DEVULH MAAAI KRAYE JUST LAIK MA ANIMU LAWL, or giving false data like you did; so as to falsely complain that melee "was always junk".

I am done with Warframe in terms of participation; I will now solely devote myself to Captura stating my undying hatred of this "superior" playstyle. I want holsters. I want faster holsters that still use the old animation; rather than their replacement by an ugly-as-Hell energy flicker. I want the simple pleasure of ACTUALLY HOLDING my beloved Dual Raza again. I want to channel again. I want weapon trails and slam attack particles to NOT give me eye cancer again. I want to actually control my own block and not get stuck in a "deflection loop" that keeps me from firing Gunblades.

I'm just so utterly sick of it all. There's no "ninja" left in Warframe, we're just a boring cookie-cutter space gun game dudes now. Congrats, DE; you literally devolved what was fun about your once-imaginative game into a clone of Destiny, despite predating and (formerly) being more creative than it.

What's next, lootboxes? A new planet that's EPICGAMESEXCLUSIVEtm? Firing Keith Thompson from the art team? Kicking out George Spanos and Keith Power from the music department, when they literally invented the sound of the game?

I don't have hope for the future, and it's abundantly clear DE intends to treat players like we're Solari and they're the Corpus. Until there's any sign otherwise or legitimate acknowledgment of melee-main players' complaints; I stand by that accusation. I've lost faith in the product; and also in the players' courage to actually criticize you all when you butcher your own game.

you aren't the only one, so so many, and more to come as time progresses, and only when the decrease in activity heightens they will listen, but it may be damaging. For sure I know it is coming if this is not fixed, I am no longer playing warframe devilmightcryframe and it impacted me and many others like this surely we won't be the only ones. The only thing they needed to do was re-advertise to attain new patrons, nothing more.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

^The same base damage?! MK-1 Braton has 18 base damage; Gram Prime has 180. Does your brain delete 3rd digits in the numbers it reads off the Wiki? That is literally ten times the damage of the rifle.

Not that I don't agree with the entire rest of what you're saying, but y'wanna know something fuuuuuuun?

When taking into account attack speeds, Gram Prime does 144 damage per second base before crits.

Mk 1 Braton does 132.

Braton does 210.

Yes, Gram has a much higher crit chance than either, but... the game's over-reliance on crits for damage isn't exactly a good thing, I think.

[Avlaen]

So DE ignoring all the feed back? just give us a toggle atleast.

[Loza03]

@Maxim_M_Payne

1: Quote or mention if you want to reply to a specific comment. I came across your reply by complete chance.

2: This whole thing is full of slippery slope arguments, ad hominem and straw men. Fallacies make people really not want to read what you say regardless of how right you may or may not be.

3: my actual response.

23 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

^The same base damage?! MK-1 Braton has 18 base damage; Gram Prime has 180. Does your brain delete 3rd digits in the numbers it reads off the Wiki? That is literally ten times the damage of the rifle.

 

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

MK1-Strun

Which deals... 180 base damage. Same as Gram Prime.

Either this is a very significant reading error or a straw man. 

Even if we do consider the Mk1-Braton, that thing deal 135 damage per second, and when you consider that  you can pick up the regular Braton for Credits in much the same vein, that thing deals 210 damage per second. At much longer range, and lets you use cover in the process.

 

25 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Fundamentally weaker? What's fundamentally weaker is both ranged and melee combat; ever since they got stapled together into one useless wreck. If you had issues reaching a foe, it was because you weren't using parkour/sprinting/air attacks to ninja your way over to the opponent in conjunction with melee; as was the whole "space ninja" point. At least, when we still had an aim-glide that worked on all three weapons; a dedicated melee combat mode; and an RMB that still did anything; that was the point. 

Last time I checked bullets move faster than Tenno. Instead of trying to insult me by claiming that "oh you just weren't good enough", consider my point as a whole - melee requires you to close the distance, meaning that enemies have more time to kill you and have more ability since you cant make use of cover. That's why melee is usually so powerful in shooters, to balance that fundamental fact. Same kind of deal as shotguns. That's what I mean by fundamentally weaker. In Warframe, however, before all the crazy multipliers it's a lot weaker than, say, the Energy Sword from Halo (roughly comparable in role) which can take out almost any enemy in a couple of swings, only one against several. Minus Blood Rush and Condition Overload, the same cannot be said for a lot of Melee weapons in Warframe at higher levels due to the aforementioned abysmally low base damage, instead relying on a ramp-up to get all its multipliers in play before it can.

And then there's the other side of the coin which is the fact that Melee can quickly hit the point of overkilling everything so much that it is literally impossible to implement tougher enemies using the normal damage system because they can be deleted so quickly by all these crazy multipliers. OV became way less interesting when I realised I could literally just delete the mini-bosses, one of the few sources of genuine challenge (as opposed to high-damage homing attacks and Nullifier spam) in mere seconds with Condition Overload and/or Blood Rush. And that's not even counting stuff like Maiming Strike Atterax which completely ignores the aforementioned fundamental point of melee (short range, huge power) by having a 15 meter range in a 360 degree radius. I guarantee you that's at least 50% of the reason why the Wolf is the way he is.

The melee damage system is so fundamentally broken that it needs a complete overhaul. It's either so impotent and pathetic as to be useless or so ludicrously overpowered as to snap the game in two. And no, 'it's a power fantasy' is not an adequate excuse for the latter. If what you're fighting in a power fantasy literally can't do anything to you, then you're not actually powerful. Even Kirby implements ways for enemies to pose at least a mild threat to you. KIRBY.

49 minutes ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

poor reach of quick attacks

Melee attacks needing you to be in melee range is not a problem.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

lack of forward movement across all Stances.

Something that can't be fixed without overhauling the system. Even from the earliest talks about Melee 3.0 was 'we're going to make it faster and not restrict movement as much'? In that context, the change of faster, cleaner weapon swaps makes total sense.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-Slam attacks that uselessly "juggle" enemies so they get launched 2000 feet away from me and stand back up before I can ever use finishers on them.

Not been an issue with me. Mostly it's just tossed them into the air and then back down more or less where they came from. Even on Paracesis which increases slam attack intensity. I mean, there is this small sweet spot that launches them much farther, but even then, we can aim our slam attacks now so it's a bit of a moot point since it's so small and I can just aim at everywhere else that doesn't do this.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-Channeling that now completely fails to activate, no matter what control scheme I use; in motion or holding still, literally nothing ever triggers. Life Strike gives my Excalibur such help on Exalted Blade's build now.

Not been an issue with me either. I've been able to activate channeling just fine on the rare occasions I do want it just fine.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-Weapon trails and slam particles that, rather than being their prior, pleasing mixture of transparency and glowing-ness, are now hideously opaque; and brighter than Gohan entering Super Saiyan 2. Not like I used my eyes; or that this ugliness totally removes any remaining desire to use what used to be my favorite weapon category...

This is entirely subjective. I'm quite fond of the new trails and don't have any issues with them.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-Exalted Weapons that now get interrupted by virtually anything; as well as no longer overriding normal weapons, so they've lost their satisfaction and feeling of power. It's SO fun to go from being Wolverine as Valkyr, Robin Hood as Ivara, JoJo as Baruuk, Kenpachi Zaraki as Excalibur, and himself as Wukong; to a new, neutered form of all of the above, one that gives me the "convenience" of STOPPING ALTOGETHER; so that I can swap rampaging with an actually cool weapon for firing NORMAL, BORING GUNS THAT ARE ALREADY IN EVERY VIDEO GAME ON EARTH. Totally asked for that, DE.

Fair point. This is a pretty legit complaint under all the salt. I don't get how Exalteds are neutered in any way outside of that, but switching out of them is a pretty significant issue that unlike the new system doesn't add much.

Though complaining about guns is also entirely subjective. A lot of players like guns just fine. I'm pretty sure that this game wouldn't still be a shooter if they didn't.

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-Hysteria's orange "berserker haze" glitching out, and stopping the color correction VFX; every time I hit an opponent. Every. Single. Time. It flickers back to normal graphics with each and every hit now. Wolverine Mode is now Epilepsy Simulator 2019. Thanks for that.

Or you know... it's a glitch... not an actual intended change in the system...

1 hour ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

-The complete removal of full-on melee, controllable blocking, and easy use of RMB-involving Stance combos.

RMB is still just as easy to use as it ever was and full-on melee is literally the only thing we have now, so those make no sense.

But I agree with you and basically everyone else apparently that auto-block is worse. The idea of bringing up the gun with a double-tap of right click and block with just tapping it is the best idea in my mind.

 

 

[Konachibi]

35 pages in and still no response from DE despite the feedback being almost universally negative regarding this.

You keep pretending we aren't here DE, don't worry, I'm sure some youtuber like Jim Sterling or YongYea will pick this up, and then all that good reputation you built up as a 'shining example of a developer that listens to it's community and acts on their feedback' will all get destroyed once it's let out that you've completely ignored all the negative feedback your community has given you about a change to a major system in the game that has completely ruined their fun and their gameplay style.

I mean, all it will take is for one of you to just say something in this thread so we know our voices are being heard.  The outrage and hate you're generating by not spending a few minutes to say "Hi, we've seen your feedback, we're working on fixing this for you." or something along this lines can be satiated by just letting us know what is going on right now.  Saying nothing is only hurting your reputation and the faith you've developed with your community.  You should know better than this.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Konachibi

[(XBOX)E Da Richard]

Guardian Derisions broken with the current system, my suggestion would be to make the 15 Meter taunt from Guardian Derision automatic while your melees out and not attacking.

Edited April 11, 2019 by (XB1)YouBitePi11ows

[OmegaVoid]

On some weapons I use the alt-fire a lot, and it's annoying to hit it and have nothing happen just because I used a melee attack last.

I have channeling re-mapped to a keyboard button, so with melee in my hands, MMB does nothing at all.

To use alt-fire, I have to hit RMB first, which is rather clunky. (And in the thick of combat I often forget!)

13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

@Maxim_M_Payne

The idea of bringing up the gun with a double-tap of right click and block with just tapping it is the best idea in my mind.

And that would make my problem even worse! So...

• I would like to see a toggle in options to switch MMB between channeling and primary/secondary alt-fire.

(I haven't read this now-humongous thread start to end, so apologies if this has already been brought up.)

[.Narima.]

I just died... Valkyr's 4th Ability completely overriden by AIM GLIDE, Arbitrations 150+ Levels good bye reward. DEFU.SE---