Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[SteveCutler]

As I understand it, for the full Melee 3.0 you're redoing all the attack combos and what not. That sounds great to me, as they're sorely in need of improvements.

But while you're at it, can you please consider dealing with the special case of nikanas? Nikanas are different from other weapons as they have sheaths. We can purchase different holster positions that change the position of this sheath, for fashion frame. The problem is that all three nikana stances seem to be based around "Iaido", the style of attacking from the sheath and placing the weapon back in there afterwards, and as a result the warframe always holds the nikana and sheath at the left hip regardless of holster position. In other words, we can pay for fancy holster positions on the back of the warframe, but as soon as you "equip" the weapon it goes back to the left hip, which just looks stupid and disappointing.

I just want to pull my nikana out of the sheath, leave the sheath in the custom holster position on my warframe's back, and just swing the nikana around. Basically like how single swords work. 😞

So while you're going over all the stances and reworking animations and what not, could you please please please give us some kind of fix for this? Here are some suggestions for how you might solve this:

1. Changing at least one of the stances (probably Decisive Judgement) to not use Iaido style.
2. Just give us a brand new nikana stance, where the nikana is drawn and kept in hand.
3. Allow us to equip single sword stances on nikanas. While these stances are in use, the sheath stays permanently in the holster position, and only the blade is drawn.

I know other people must want this as well. A quick search shows older archived threads of people asking for it. Maybe now is the time for it to finally happen, with Melee 3.0 in the works? Please?

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/686367-a-nikana-stance-that-shows-the-actual-blade/
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/245892-non-iaido-nikana-stances/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8t6pba/will_we_ever_get_a_noniaido_stance_for_nikana/

Especially with the popular game Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice being all the rage now, I want to get my shinobi fashion frame on. Come on guys. 😞
 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by SteveCutler

[MaryJane]

just tell me who the #*!% implemented this so i can curse them... and there offspring

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

slam attacks are very annoying now...

 all slam attacks do annoying ragdolls now, except some that are useful like skiajat's, it knockdowns enemies and opens them up for ground finishers,

request: remove ragdoll effects from melee   

[(NSW)Smashbrolink]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)theHOPPER243 said:

slam attacks are very annoying now...

 all slam attacks do annoying ragdolls now, except some that are useful like skiajat's, it knockdowns enemies and opens them up for ground finishers,

request: remove ragdoll effects from melee   

I prefer the effects, honestly; every enemy that's flat on their arse, is an enemy that isn't shooting at me, after all.😂

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Smashbrolink said:

I prefer the effects, honestly; every enemy that's flat on their arse, is an enemy that isn't shooting at me, after all.😂

yes but would you rather have every enemy displaced somewhere far on the map, or right on your feet? go test the skiajati slam attack, and then other weapon's slam attack and you'll see what i mean

[motorfirebox]

I think blockgliding needs to return. Essentially, remove or alter the ability to switch from melee to ranged by hitting aim. Perhaps you could set it so that double-tapping aim will still switch to ranged, if people really want to keep the functionality. Personally, I think the ability to quickfire from melee to ranged is enough. If I need to switch from melee to ranged without firing, I can always use the switch weapon button.

One of the problems with losing blockglide is that you now need a secondary weapon to use Movement 2.0 if you're carrying a datamass or other mission object. I often run without a secondary if I'm leveling up a primary and/or a melee, to speed up the leveling process. If I'm doing mobile defense or excavation, I have to be really careful to never try to glide while I'm carrying the mission object, because if I do I'll switch to my primary and therefore drop the mission object.

On a more general level, losing blockglide means (obviously) that you can't gain the benefits of blocking while gliding. It can be very useful to glide towards an enemy while blocking, allowing you to close the distance accurately while benefiting from blocking's damage reduction.

There's also the fact that losing manual blocking makes it difficult or impossible to pull off certain very useful melee combos. I know melee combos are going to change drastically Soon^TM, but in the interim it'd be nice to get my Tempo Royale block combo back... and to not have my block combos go off randomly in the middle of a fight.

I don't have any opinion on whether or not autoblock should remain, if manual block is returned. Maybe manual block shouldn't return; just remove the ability to switch to ranged by hitting aim and leave everything else as is. That would still leave the block combo issue, but honestly that's livable. Losing blockglide is a much bigger issue.

[vaarnaaarne]

Since I'm not sure if people just didn't notice it earlier because of quick melee often being exempt, but near-universal movement lock is not new with Melee 3.0 phase 1. This was changed quietly last Fall IIRC. It's by far the worst thing going for melee right now, and completely unfair to melee compared to guns, and makes several stances and weapons completely unuseable. Melee NEEDS to sprint unrestricted while attacking like it could before, because melee needs to always close the gap, even mid-combo.

It's a change that should have been reverted long ago.

Edited April 15, 2019 by vaarnaaarne

[ElfenLiedist]

On 2019-03-07 at 9:03 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Your right mouse button is now aim, always, instantly.

This part of the changes is kinda messing with Valky's ult, if you hold right click to do the melee attacks you will perform the attack but very randomly will lose the invulnerability buff. Some kind of toggle to remove right click changes to guns might be nice.

[Utaha-Kasumi]

I just got back after a long break, even got a 70 off discount on plat was very excited until i pull out my Lesion to melee. Im very dissapointed on these forced changes, i loved the complexity of melee before holding down to channel, manually blocking, it seemed fun and felt like a badass pressing the keys to pull this off. i had everything kebinded to my mouse in way that felt very cool and comfortable to do this. Now the melee seems so dull is just like im quick meleeing all the time, like a call of duty melee. Also it seems like auto block does not protect you as efficient as manual block. Autoblocking right now feels like well lets hope he blocks those shots otherwise im screwed. It makes me feel like i got less control of my character. The melee in this game felt unique and badass, now it feels boring and lame.

Ps: You can keep your 70 % off discount for plat, not interested on playing anymore with these awful melee combat.

Edited April 16, 2019 by scion_mike
reason for edit? wtf... ok.. typos and added text?

[(PSN)chibitonka]

Keep the combo counters and the damage multipliers from it the same as they are now. 

Link heavy attacks to channeled charge attacks so we only lose energy.

Keep channeling but give it some serious love it's not a bad system just horribly neglected. Buff channeling dmg multipliers on variant weapons, rework damage deflection via channeling to scale, fix the channeling mods so people will want to use them more, etc.

Make blocking switchable between manual and auto as a setting so people can pick which is best for them. 

Make maiming strike additive like true steel/sacrificial steel but applied only to heavy/charge attacks instead of the flat add on it does now.

Leave blood rush and weeping wounds alone since they make many builds viable on nearly all melee weapons.

Do the same to the rivens with a similar effect.

Pull the stat from riven roll pool so we don't get rivens with 2 stats that boost critical chance. 

Downplay the range bonuses gained from mods like reach/primed reach on melee weapons.

Keep base range on weapons the same.

 

Curious to see how the stance reworks will go, Good job on the slam attack rework, and keep finishers great. xD

[Mokkun108]

Removing quick melee before stances rework was a mistake. Stances can't put out as high DPS as quick melee attack, they are so slow and awkwardly animated that I can't apply status fast enough for Condition overload to work properly. Sorry, but melee feels like garbage now.

Melee has 2 options now:

1) Slams to ragdoll enemies (which I absolutely despise, I'd rather be doing DPS instead)

2) Maiming strike and sliding (I despise maiming even more)

Now, that I've gotten my umbral forma I'm going to take a long break from the game.

[BratwurstBob]

Channeling: right now I can't tell if it's on or off unless I actively turn it off/on. Especially when I'm invisible as Ash, I used my gun once in between and then swap back to my dagger; is channeling on or off? Since I'm invisible I can't tell at all.

Please add a UI indicator for channeling. Also please don't turn off channeling when i get swapped to another weapon. Aim gliding with the melee weapon in hand swaps me to the last equipped primary or secondary, I have to E first to have the melee active again, and I have to turn channeling on again. Did I press it right? I think I missed the button a bit, did I turn it on? Can't tell since I'm invisible.

Channeling should not drain when auto-parrying, only when actively blocking. Otherwise the energy is gone in seconds, making the whole channeling moot since there is nothing left to channel for an attack. Afaict there is no benefit to parrying with channeling active.

Right now channeling is Imho quite pointless (as before) and the added benefits I can get need to be modded separately, I might as well just not bother. Channeling should give more benefits for the cost. Maybe a general speed increase influenced by channel efficiency? I'm not sure what to do to improve it, but whenever I try to make it work it's just more effort than it should be and makes me swap to a simpler setup. 

[el_chanis]

Honestly, the entire Melee 3.0 coulded been done by simply increasing base holster speed. Right now, and after all this time, it pretty much created a bunch of problems, in exchange for features nobody asked.

Releasing this change without overhauling all stances was (and still is) a HUGE mistake. Many weapons became effectively worse, and some stances are by themselves borderline unplayable (all Sword and Board stances SUCK, the foward jump attack is incredibly anoying, and all the polearms now are basicly useless).

If reworking stances is too much, then, just revert the changes (except for the directional slam, thats ok), and increase the weapon swap speed. All the benefits, without the stupid problems.

[Maxim_M_Payne]

On 2019-04-11 at 5:25 PM, (PS4)hellahym said:

I will not going into detail because at this point, it seems futile since you DE are not willing to giveus any form of feedback.

Answer your bloody thread, DE.

On 2019-04-13 at 2:32 AM, Syrug said:

The knew melee system is cool for gun goons, but when you like to melee it's a step back

I've given it a month and my opinion upon the matter is still unanimous concurrence. Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time. They were both also more fun when their controls didn't interrupt each other.

On 2019-04-13 at 1:13 PM, Ninubi said:

what is the reason that we can not keep the ability to switch to a melee weapon?

Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.

On 2019-04-12 at 7:03 PM, (NSW)Smashbrolink said:

The original melee system we had was far better; all it needed was better swap times without mods, the directional slam, and some better combos, as well as a way of dodging strikes and bullets when in Melee mode.

I myself have said this over and over AND OVER. Remove Twitch, Streamlined Form, Soft Hands, Reflex Draw, Speed Holster, and Spring-loaded Blades. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY; and then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat. And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice. There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.

As for cosmetic issues:

Dual energy is not working correctly, and the "better" new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti effects/too-fast flashing. The fact our energy color finally colors the elements does not change the fact they are revolting to put on our melee weapons. Weapon trails are hideously opaque compared to their former, actually pleasing and un-distracting ghostliness, and in the same vein slam attacks are so hideously bright that ninety percent of stances are now triggers for epilepsy. 

You have, for a solid month now at DE, shoved an objective downgrade to the melee system, uglier visual effects, and your definition of "fun" down everyone's throats. The glitz is not going to change the fact I don't want to play the game, and that I don't have the motivation to farm for Wolf Sledge, Tipedo Prime, or anything else new. I maxed Korrudo and sold them the moment I did, because you've managed the impressive feat of turning all melee weapons both uglier and less fun to use.

What good is it to have melee we aren't allowed to actually hold, let alone to have the full complexity of our old controls? What the hell was some coder's vendetta against FUN combat? Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?

It's a hot mess, and while I refuse to give up on the game, I can say for a fact that I am not buying any plat or any thing for the time being. You took five years of awesomeness since I joined in 2014, then sliced out everything that actually separated Warframe from another boring space shooter, DE.

A shiny new turd is no consolation for cutting off our hands and our input into our own controls.

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Maxim_M_Payne

[KevJin93]

Hello, switching between gun and melee feels very smooth now and is a welcomed change, but I think blocking should be automatic with the option to assign a key to it. Certain mods such as the Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision no longer work due to blocking no longer keybound, and possibly affecting the Steam achievement - Shield Saver too. I hope to see this addressed in the near future, keep up the good work! 😉

[(PSN)MATTEOS_PHOTO]

This really sucks, I thought after this update it would fix melee but it didnt, you still cant use melee with archwing guns, what is the point anymore to use the arc-guns

[DeltaPangaea]

I think one of the more ironic things is that removal of manual blocking made the melee system more braindead and automatic when DMC is like, the opposite of that.

[Heidelgard]

I rarely use channeling mods, but today I wanted to give it a try.

Sadly I forgot about the amazing auto block that we are forced to use now, so as soon I activate channeling mode, my energy is completely drained very shortly after, because of the energy consumption during blocking while channeling.

The more I explore the current melee system, the less I like it.

Personally, the only thing that I like is the new directional slam attack ... even if the ragdoll effect on the enemies is too exaggerated ... hilarious yes, but exaggerated.

[Ninubi]

22 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Answer your bloody thread, DE.

I've given it a month and my opinion upon the matter is still unanimous concurrence. Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time. They were both also more fun when their controls didn't interrupt each other.

Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.

I myself have said this over and over AND OVER. Remove Twitch, Streamlined Form, Soft Hands, Reflex Draw, Speed Holster, and Spring-loaded Blades. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY; and then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat. And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice. There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.

As for cosmetic issues:

Dual energy is not working correctly, and the "better" new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti effects/too-fast flashing. The fact our energy color finally colors the elements does not change the fact they are revolting to put on our melee weapons. Weapon trails are hideously opaque compared to their former, actually pleasing and un-distracting ghostliness, and in the same vein slam attacks are so hideously bright that ninety percent of stances are now triggers for epilepsy. 

You have, for a solid month now at DE, shoved an objective downgrade to the melee system, uglier visual effects, and your definition of "fun" down everyone's throats. The glitz is not going to change the fact I don't want to play the game, and that I don't have the motivation to farm for Wolf Sledge, Tipedo Prime, or anything else new. I maxed Korrudo and sold them the moment I did, because you've managed the impressive feat of turning all melee weapons both uglier and less fun to use.

What good is it to have melee we aren't allowed to actually hold, let alone to have the full complexity of our old controls? What the hell was some coder's vendetta against FUN combat? Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?

It's a hot mess, and while I refuse to give up on the game, I can say for a fact that I am not buying any plat or any thing for the time being. You took five years of awesomeness since I joined in 2014, then sliced out everything that actually separated Warframe from another boring space shooter, DE.

A shiny new turd is no consolation for cutting off our hands and our input into our own controls.

 

ahem lets start the mini essay. lets start out with your points and remove some flavoured languish

1:  Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time
- I agree and will add the objectively better choice to let you make choice's giving control to the player and not taking it away

2: Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; (do clearifie yourself cause this is nonsens) despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.
- segregated weapon slots is needed for the base gameplay, we need our primary, secondary and tertiary weapon, further segregated into families of weapon, assault rifles, shotguns, bows.... 
adding ease os switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" due to your ability to equip yourself to deal with different situations and the ease to change to that equipment to deal with that situation
adding the complexity of TTK (Time To Kill) must not be shorter then the time it takes to change weapon for that situation, the quick attack being an "instant" switch is improvement to that

3: Remove weapon swap speed mods. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY;
- I agree, right now as the game is constructed with its "fast pace and quick combat" focus there is a limited reason to have a long weapon swap time, if WF was more focused on stealth and tactical choices that extends further then "to gas or not to gas, that is the question" then the "slow" weapon swap time, but in its current hord shooter, gun down them by the billions. then yes. faster swap speed would be jolly molly good. DE pay attention to your current genre you are in

4: A: Then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat.
4: B: And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice.
A - better ability to dodge? how? or perhaps what is it you meen? we have plenty of way to "get out of the way" all from bullet jumping, rolls/dash, sprinting, jumping. unless you want hocks around the game that you can "quick click and drag yourself there" then I don't see what you want, or is it that you want a passive ability to "dodge" akin to old-school RP-games with a neat "dodge" or "miss" popping up with every missed attack? that would take away agency and your ability to control your character and moves that to RNG, and I belive most people agree to the least amount of RNG for anything and everything involving survival, when you fail you want to feel like it was your action, your fault your mistake! and that is belive it or not. fun. for as long as it was your action that caused it
B - yeah no problem there, that auto block is frustrating and enoying and I love to toggle it off.

5: There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.
- I am alive! and I do want a self playing game, in fact I have several games that does that. It is all boiling down to preferers, genre and situation. tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 
(and before you ask, some story based games, Tower defences that is inherently self playing, factorion! the quite essential self playing game, it is the bloody point of it! dwarf fortress! and yes, it is by the end of the game when the structure you have created is self sufficient that does not require your constant input, the hallmark of games you can set up structures. see factorion for further references of self playing)

hell yeah we are getting somewhere! onwards to the rest of the points!

6: Dual energy is not working correctly, and the "better" new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti effects/too-fast flashing.
- "working correctly" is dependent on what the intention is, to have to zones with 2 different colours or mixing 2 different colours, unless DE slap a "this is what we intended to do" so is it either a mute point or a personal preference, to a option to change it would always be nice, more customisation is never wrong
"new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti" now I happen to like the confetti effects (this is why I always played halo with the grunt birthday skull active) it is fun and entertaining to fill the screen with particle effects to the point I no longer can see. (this is why I have the particle density option turned up to max, and yes you can turn them off) however if there is an effect you can not turn off then DE needs to implement that option, it is customisation and as previously stated, more customisation is never wrong

7: Weapon trails are hideously opaque compared to their former, actually pleasing and un-distracting ghostliness
- turn them off, reduce the particle density and yes DE could do with that added customisation if you want faint and hard to see. however Tron lines are fancy and attractive and gives of a solid feeling, tho this is boiling down to personal preferences and we can discus what is beautiful another time and in another place

8: and in the same vein slam attacks are so hideously bright that ninety percent of stances are now triggers for epilepsy
- mhmm you have not played with an Octavia lately, that "min max" song of mark a straight line in each section is causing me to start feel uneasy and a slight worry that I might be sensitive to flashing images.
but your criticism is valid and say it with me now "more customisation is never wrong" and I am incline to agree that the bright colours causes un-comfortable levels of bright light with a slam attack, however they are satisfying and the ground effect that is left over after a slam attack could do with longer "lingering" effects

9: You have, for a solid month now at DE, shoved an objective downgrade to the melee system, uglier visual effects, and your definition of "fun" down everyone's throats. The glitz is not going to change the fact I don't want to play the game, and that I don't have the motivation to farm for Wolf Sledge, Tipedo Prime, or anything else new. I maxed Korrudo and sold them the moment I did, because you've managed the impressive feat of turning all melee weapons both uglier and less fun to use.
- the wolf of Saturn is a beast of his own and I have a post dedicated to that, check it out if you please, as for the rest, pure subjective statements.
granted I do not know what "the glitz" is

10: What good is it to have melee we aren't allowed to actually hold
- I am incline to agree

11: the full complexity of our old controls? 
- complexity is a strong word but yes, so far there has been no real reason to why the old control setup was scraped for the new one

12: What the hell was some coder's vendetta against FUN combat? 
- subjective statement, it is in need of alteration and dare I say, streamlining.
make the block a on command and let the auto block be a toggle in the settings
limit what button will toss you from melee to gunplay, if quick melee will take you to melee and it replacing your dedicated melee attack then logically your "primary attack" should pull you out from melee, and not the former block as well, it is confusing and disorienting and goes against instinctive play
make it faster to change weapon
allow players to chose to swap to melee and increase the players ability to play as the player wants within the established rules (we don't need hacks or exploits)

13:Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?
- custum keybindings, I use "G" and I used to use left click to block.
as for channeling, I am confused and amused it has not been removed years ago, or to the very least changed
in its present iteration it is unusable with one solid exception, life strike,
but I have not seen nor heard of a soul that build there weapons for channeling, and not a lack of trying from my department, fraggor prime is the best choice due to it having the highest base damage increase when channeling.
and it all is due to one thing, channeling consume the same energy that your abilities use, and they are almost always more useful or powerful then a singel attack from your melee while channeling. quick dirty easy fix, do the same with as has already been done with amps and void dash, two separate energy pools. one for your abilities and one for channeling. game changer and DE please considering doing this, perhaps adding more particle effects to cosmetic items, altering present channeling effect on your character, making it more clear and more obvious and easy to see, and let it become a "power mode" for taking down that really heavy guy or altering the gameplay, there is a few mods already, like the one that increases the movement speed after a channel kill

14: since 2014, then sliced out everything that actually separated Warframe from another space shooter.
- yes and no, the game has changed a lot and there is nothing wrong with stealing the good from everything
and the game is in "constant flux" and "never ending development" ask anyone that played world of Warcraft and plays the latest expansion how the game differs from day 1 and now, and you will, just like in warframe, get a long answers, where only the core mechanics remaining with the core systems, heck stamina is no longer a thing in the game and it had its pros and cons all depending on how you want to twist it for what genre you intend to view it in.

the real danger for warframe to become "just another shooter" is its sever lack of story related content and content in general
all well and dandy with fortuna and cetus, but they are "side questing" by the extreme
there has hardly been any world building sins fortuna, how hard can it be to write out more "lore" to flesh out the world building, we don't need a grand cinematic entry with huge production value, what we need is more codex entries, heck most of everything that is known in warframe is from the "crewman" entry, we have an achivist, simaris, give him something to do that grant us something about the world
 

it takes way to long time for anything involving animation, scripting and acting, especially with the speed we the community plow trough anything and everything, 9 months work, 3 hours of game time, or if I may borrow from the world of movies, a year or two to write a script, another year to film all scenes, another 6 months to organise and stich together to what will accumulate to a "full feature movie" with the end credits a run time of, brace yourself 90 min.
so how to fix that logistical problem
more "crewman" entries, writing text takes way less time and gives the opportunity to really flesh out the world.

DE needs to hire a team of bloody writers to start writing back story, time lines, and the present world. and DE does not have to be afraid of going "oh S#&$, erm ret-con?" #*!% tolkin has gone back and forth on things sins he put his pen on the paper.

heck, if we get mini quests in the forms of "acquiring data fragments from the orokin era" that contains nothing more then the every day life for people living under the orokin rule, or for that mater orokin. no new mission types need, no fancy scripting, no fancy animations. and most importantly
do keep the story in the game! comics are great, don't care for them, books are fantastic, I really don't feel like reading a book, how about grimoar cards we can only read on some random tumbler post? sounds great, but you are not getting me out of that game

keep the story in the game, and please don't ask me to #*!% off and do something else

and the first person saying "it takes times away from..." stop... think... how big is DE... how many people works att DE that is not administration personal, paper bin cleaners and so on. if DE can not afford to place 10 dudeds/dudeéts in a room to write 300 stories set in the world of warframe…. then perhaps warframe is dying indeed

P.S.
I am not attacking you! you just setup questions that answers are feedback DE needs
D.S

Edited April 18, 2019 by Ninubi

[Heidelgard]

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

ahem lets start the mini essay. lets start out with your points and remove some flavoured languish

1:  Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time
- I agree and will add the objectively better choice to let you make choice's giving control to the player and not taking it away

2: Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; (do clearifie yourself cause this is nonsens) despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.
- segregated weapon slots is needed for the base gameplay, we need our primary, secondary and tertiary weapon, further segregated into families of weapon, assault rifles, shotguns, bows.... 
adding ease os switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" due to your ability to equip yourself to deal with different situations and the ease to change to that equipment to deal with that situation
adding the complexity of TTK (Time To Kill) must not be shorter then the time it takes to change weapon for that situation, the quick attack being an "instant" switch is improvement to that

3: Remove weapon swap speed mods. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY;
- I agree, right now as the game is constructed with its "fast pace and quick combat" focus there is a limited reason to have a long weapon swap time, if WF was more focused on stealth and tactical choices that extends further then "to gas or not to gas, that is the question" then the "slow" weapon swap time, but in its current hord shooter, gun down them by the billions. then yes. faster swap speed would be jolly molly good. DE pay attention to your current genre you are in

4: A: Then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat.
4: B: And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice.
A - better ability to dodge? how? or perhaps what is it you meen? we have plenty of way to "get out of the way" all from bullet jumping, rolls/dash, sprinting, jumping. unless you want hocks around the game that you can "quick click and drag yourself there" then I don't see what you want, or is it that you want a passive ability to "dodge" akin to old-school RP-games with a neat "dodge" or "miss" popping up with every missed attack? that would take away agency and your ability to control your character and moves that to RNG, and I belive most people agree to the least amount of RNG for anything and everything involving survival, when you fail you want to feel like it was your action, your fault your mistake! and that is belive it or not. fun. for as long as it was your action that caused it
B - yeah no problem there, that auto block is frustrating and enoying and I love to toggle it off.

5: There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.
- I am alive! and I do want a self playing game, in fact I have several games that does that. It is all boiling down to preferers, genre and situation. tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 
(and before you ask, some story based games, Tower defences that is inherently self playing, factorion! the quite essential self playing game, it is the bloody point of it! dwarf fortress! and yes, it is by the end of the game when the structure you have created is self sufficient that does not require your constant input, the hallmark of games you can set up structures. see factorion for further references of self playing)

hell yeah we are getting somewhere! onwards to the rest of the points!

6: Dual energy is not working correctly, and the "better" new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti effects/too-fast flashing.
- "working correctly" is dependent on what the intention is, to have to zones with 2 different colours or mixing 2 different colours, unless DE slap a "this is what we intended to do" so is it either a mute point or a personal preference, to a option to change it would always be nice, more customisation is never wrong
"new elemental effects are a hideous storm of particle-confetti" now I happen to like the confetti effects (this is why I always played halo with the grunt birthday skull active) it is fun and entertaining to fill the screen with particle effects to the point I no longer can see. (this is why I have the particle density option turned up to max, and yes you can turn them off) however if there is an effect you can not turn off then DE needs to implement that option, it is customisation and as previously stated, more customisation is never wrong

7: Weapon trails are hideously opaque compared to their former, actually pleasing and un-distracting ghostliness
- turn them off, reduce the particle density and yes DE could do with that added customisation if you want faint and hard to see. however Tron lines are fancy and attractive and gives of a solid feeling, tho this is boiling down to personal preferences and we can discus what is beautiful another time and in another place

8: and in the same vein slam attacks are so hideously bright that ninety percent of stances are now triggers for epilepsy
- mhmm you have not played with an Octavia lately, that "min max" song of mark a straight line in each section is causing me to start feel uneasy and a slight worry that I might be sensitive to flashing images.
but your criticism is valid and say it with me now "more customisation is never wrong" and I am incline to agree that the bright colours causes un-comfortable levels of bright light with a slam attack, however they are satisfying and the ground effect that is left over after a slam attack could do with longer "lingering" effects

9: You have, for a solid month now at DE, shoved an objective downgrade to the melee system, uglier visual effects, and your definition of "fun" down everyone's throats. The glitz is not going to change the fact I don't want to play the game, and that I don't have the motivation to farm for Wolf Sledge, Tipedo Prime, or anything else new. I maxed Korrudo and sold them the moment I did, because you've managed the impressive feat of turning all melee weapons both uglier and less fun to use.
- the wolf of Saturn is a beast of his own and I have a post dedicated to that, check it out if you please, as for the rest, pure subjective statements.
granted I do not know what "the glitz" is

10: What good is it to have melee we aren't allowed to actually hold
- I am incline to agree

11: the full complexity of our old controls? 
- complexity is a strong word but yes, so far there has been no real reason to why the old control setup was scraped for the new one

12: What the hell was some coder's vendetta against FUN combat? 
- subjective statement, it is in need of alteration and dare I say, streamlining.
make the block a on command and let the auto block be a toggle in the settings
limit what button will toss you from melee to gunplay, if quick melee will take you to melee and it replacing your dedicated melee attack then logically your "primary attack" should pull you out from melee, and not the former block as well, it is confusing and disorienting and goes against instinctive play
make it faster to change weapon
allow players to chose to swap to melee and increase the players ability to play as the player wants within the established rules (we don't need hacks or exploits)

13:Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?
- custum keybindings, I use "G" and I used to use left click to block.
as for channeling, I am confused and amused it has not been removed years ago, or to the very least changed
in its present iteration it is unusable with one solid exception, life strike,
but I have not seen nor heard of a soul that build there weapons for channeling, and not a lack of trying from my department, fraggor prime is the best choice due to it having the highest base damage increase when channeling.
and it all is due to one thing, channeling consume the same energy that your abilities use, and they are almost always more useful or powerful then a singel attack from your melee while channeling. quick dirty easy fix, do the same with as has already been done with amps and void dash, two separate energy pools. one for your abilities and one for channeling. game changer and DE please considering doing this, perhaps adding more particle effects to cosmetic items, altering present channeling effect on your character, making it more clear and more obvious and easy to see, and let it become a "power mode" for taking down that really heavy guy or altering the gameplay, there is a few mods already, like the one that increases the movement speed after a channel kill

14: since 2014, then sliced out everything that actually separated Warframe from another space shooter.
- yes and no, the game has changed a lot and there is nothing wrong with stealing the good from everything
and the game is in "constant flux" and "never ending development" ask anyone that played world of Warcraft and plays the latest expansion how the game differs from day 1 and now, and you will, just like in warframe, get a long answers, where only the core mechanics remaining with the core systems, heck stamina is no longer a thing in the game and it had its pros and cons all depending on how you want to twist it for what genre you intend to view it in.

the real danger for warframe to become "just another shooter" is its sever lack of story related content and content in general
all well and dandy with fortuna and cetus, but they are "side questing" by the extreme
there has hardly been any world building sins fortuna, how hard can it be to write out more "lore" to flesh out the world building, we don't need a grand cinematic entry with huge production value, what we need is more codex entries, heck most of everything that is known in warframe is from the "crewman" entry, we have an achivist, simaris, give him something to do that grant us something about the world
 

it takes way to long time for anything involving animation, scripting and acting, especially with the speed we the community plow trough anything and everything, 9 months work, 3 hours of game time, or if I may borrow from the world of movies, a year or two to write a script, another year to film all scenes, another 6 months to organise and stich together to what will accumulate to a "full feature movie" with the end credits a run time of, brace yourself 90 min.
so how to fix that logistical problem
more "crewman" entries, writing text takes way less time and gives the opportunity to really flesh out the world.

DE needs to hire a team of bloody writers to start writing back story, time lines, and the present world. and DE does not have to be afraid of going "oh S#&$, erm ret-con?" #*!% tolkin has gone back and forth on things sins he put his pen on the paper.

heck, if we get mini quests in the forms of "acquiring data fragments from the orokin era" that contains nothing more then the every day life for people living under the orokin rule, or for that mater orokin. no new mission types need, no fancy scripting, no fancy animations. and most importantly
do keep the story in the game! comics are great, don't care for them, books are fantastic, I really don't feel like reading a book, how about grimoar cards we can only read on some random tumbler post? sounds great, but you are not getting me out of that game

keep the story in the game, and please don't ask me to #*!% off and do something else

and the first person saying "it takes times away from..." stop... think... how big is DE... how many people works att DE that is not administration personal, paper bin cleaners and so on. if DE can not afford to place 10 dudeds/dudeéts in a room to write 300 stories set in the world of warframe…. then perhaps warframe is dying indeed

P.S.
I am not attacking you! you just setup questions that answers are feedback DE needs
D.S

I would dare to say that your post should be marked as important, because it's well written and it's a summary of most of the feedback provided in this section, heck some of your points sound so obvious that it almost looks like the developers are lacking a bit of common sense.

I really hope they will acknowledge their mistake and turn this melee update into something that can be positive for everyone, without having to sacrifice or deform good mechanics and aspects of the game.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Heidelgard
Typo

[BratwurstBob]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Heidelgard:

quick dirty easy fix, do the same with as has already been done with amps and void dash, two separate energy pools. one for your abilities and one for channeling. game changer and DE please considering doing this, perhaps adding more particle effects to cosmetic items, altering present channeling effect on your character, making it more clear and more obvious and easy to see, and let it become a "power mode" for taking down that really heavy guy or altering the gameplay, there is a few mods already, like the one that increases the movement speed after a channel kill

This. So much this, wish I had thought of it.

[Sikelh]

On 2019-04-18 at 6:37 AM, DeltaPangaea said:

I think one of the more ironic things is that removal of manual blocking made the melee system more braindead and automatic when DMC is like, the opposite of that.

Maybe because in DMC blocking ISN'T automatic? For Nero you have parries which are about timing and not just done for you and for Dante you have royal guard style which is manual input. 

Not to mention people need to stop comparing it to DMC anyway. Completely different type of game and it's closer to Musou games than it is to DMC.

Auto weapon switch needs to go as well. Now you wanna make things more fluid instead of clunky and jank as hell like 2.9 did? Implement more animation canceling instead.

[Ninubi]

19 hours ago, Sikelh said:

Maybe because in DMC blocking ISN'T automatic? For Nero you have parries which are about timing and not just done for you and for Dante you have royal guard style which is manual input. 

Not to mention people need to stop comparing it to DMC anyway. Completely different type of game and it's closer to Musou games than it is to DMC.

Auto weapon switch needs to go as well. Now you wanna make things more fluid instead of clunky and jank as hell like 2.9 did? Implement more animation canceling instead.

1: Not to mention people need to stop comparing it to DMC anyway.
- Disagree, it is always good to compare to anything and everything that is applikable, comparing Warframe to Dungeons and Dragons 5E is fitting, sins in both you will run missions, gather resources, use resources to improve your own power level to take on harder missions, to get more resources and improve your power level and so on and so on
Further more, Devil may Cry is an alluring spectial action fighting game, and Warframe could stand some >spectial action< added to it, our melee stances adds that with nonsensical moves that is flashy and choreographed. But it does not make a lick of sens outside of the world of Warframe, most weapon stances leave you far to open, you never ever hold a guard, and for some reason decided to pick up a oversized sword with less then stellar balancing. In simple terms, it becomes silly, especially considering you are charging a squad of gunmen.
As for what from Devil may Cry could be implemented to Warframe and improve the game play is something I don't know, I only have 10min in that game series in its entirety.
That sad a fast paced melee system where you slam the ground sending 4 enemies sky high and then jumping after and doing overly flashy and fast strikes akin to Blade storm(Ash) sounds pretty narly, considering we already are doing this in game, we lack the auto aim, the QTE and we lack chaining combos. the combo counter could just as well be a hit counter. Heck blade dash(Excalibur)… dashing forward striking an enemy with a glowing energy sword then dashing to another enemy and repeating for a few enemies.

And Warframe in its present iteration and meta, TTK (Time To Kill) is alpha and omega, and weapon that takes more then a few hits are bashed as trash, MR fodder, junk... (funny with that the TTK for Wolf of Saturn is anything between 5 minuts to 30 minuts… I just leave that hanging there, feel free to pick that fruit)
 

2: Completely different type of game and it's closer to Musou games than it is to DMC.
- Genres exist for a reson, use them, 

https://koei.fandom.com/wiki/Musou

"Musou/Musō (無双, lit. "Unmatched"), or read as Wushuang in a Chinese context, is an umbrella term for powerful moves used by playable characters and enemy officers in Warriors games, and a term that is usually the Japanese equivalent of Warriors. They are automated, cinematic attack sequences that often provide invincibility to the player character for the duration of the sequence, oftentimes accompanied with time freezing around the player character during the initial startup. Players can usually activate a Musou attack by pressing  (default setting on PlayStation controllers) while possessing at least one full Musou gauge/stock."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Force#Games

"Dynasty Warriors, known as Sangokumusou (三國無双 Sangokumusō, lit. "Three Kingdoms Unrivalled"), is the first and the largest sub-series of Warriors series. While the second and follow titles are named as Shin · Sangokumusou (真・三國無双 Shin · Sangokumusō, lit. "True · Three Kingdom Unrivalled"), English localization remain naming Dynasty Warriors, made all English titles are a number ahead of their Japanese counterparts."

please explain yourself

as for the genre for Warframe
3rd-person, hord shooter, crafting, action, co-up multiplayer, sci-fi, player vs environment, hack and slash, parkor game with RPG elements.

and it has a bullet hell game mode, a "flappy bird" clone, and a fighting game mode.

and this is excluding the minigames, such as spear fishing (heck I am going to add that to steam now #deal-with-it), mining, modular weapon crafting, custom weapon crafting

and then we have the whole "fashion frame is end game" statement, that is again another genre 
 

3: Auto weapon switch needs to go as well. Now you wanna make things more fluid instead of clunky and jank as hell like 2.9 did? Implement more animation canceling instead.
- Yes there is nothing good with having your controls taken away from you.

however I will find myself disagreeing with "more animation cancelling" and would like to counter with high risk high reward, offer a high reward for going for that heavy attack, compare what it is right now, forgotten, and only resently brought back from the grave with [Amalgam Organ Shatter] and its 60% charged attack speed...

*waves small flag and give a halfassed huray*

(so now we can use the power attack in all our crit-based weapons... hazza… step in the right direction tho, now one for [Condition overload]? or should we remove status procs from enemies and make them all immune to it? making status based weapons for the beginners who knows nothing else? who know nothing better?)

anyhow adding a small QTE akin to God of War where we in a rather spectial way slam jam and crush our enemies, making us briefly invulnerable for the special to finish and making it a trigger for starting that QTE so one can opt out from it for whatever the reason

 that can be neat

[-Krux-]

Only change about melee that I don't like is being forced to "quick melee" all your combos.

It was a huge deal when you guys added the ability to equip your melee weapon, you announced stances to come with that, having combos.. was a huge deal. Now we're here and we're breaking all that down, removing what was the best part of warframe.

Let us use melee the way we always have, please.

[Andele3025]

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

 

1:  Both melee and gunplay were more fun when I had a CHOICE between which I used at the time
- I agree and will add the objectively better choice to let you make choice's giving control to the player and not taking it away

Its not a issue of fun, the issue is DE being dummies by removing true melee/making melee is objectively worse to give gunplay a quick attack+

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

2: Weaboos whining about "MUH DEBIL TRIVVER"; (do clearifie yourself cause this is nonsens) despite the fact the removal of segregated weapon slots did the exact opposite of adding "flow" to either ranged or close combat.
- segregated weapon slots is needed for the base gameplay, we need our primary, secondary and tertiary weapon, further segregated into families of weapon, assault rifles, shotguns, bows.... 
adding ease os switching between the primary secondary and tertiary weapon slot would add "flow" due to your ability to equip yourself to deal with different situations and the ease to change to that equipment to deal with that situation
adding the complexity of TTK (Time To Kill) must not be shorter then the time it takes to change weapon for that situation, the quick attack being an "instant" switch is improvement to that

DT has nothing to do with DE butchering weapon swap/removing equip melee keybind and just making gun to melee/melee to gun 2000% holster speed (its not even truly instant/DE actually removing the different state, but just applying the speed you would get at full holster speed+toxic chroma setup)

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

3: Remove weapon swap speed mods. Just make weapon holster speed inherently fast, ALLOWING US TO ACTUALLY RETAIN OUR PERSONAL CHOICE IN HOW WE PLAY;
- I agree, right now as the game is constructed with its "fast pace and quick combat" focus there is a limited reason to have a long weapon swap time, if WF was more focused on stealth and tactical choices that extends further then "to gas or not to gas, that is the question" then the "slow" weapon swap time, but in its current hord shooter, gun down them by the billions. then yes. faster swap speed would be jolly molly good. DE pay attention to your current genre you are in

Holster speed should remain, its just that base holster speeds of all swaps should have been cut to 1/3rd instead of gun/gun remaining the same while giving gun/melee a 2k modifier. As you noted QA was there for gun people and if you were playing melee its only badly designed encounters and situations that required specific tools (be it true tools like the pox, a syndicate proc or once upon a time the sonicor or the wish to go sniper for a few shot on open world maps) that asked you to swap.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

4: A: Then add a better ability to dodge things whether in melee or ranged combat.

Yup, dodge roll should take priority over all other inputs, melee combos should have a dodge offset AND IMO doing a attack during roll should do a stinger/gap closer with damage

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

4: B: And unlike how you shoved in your asinine autoblock, make these changes something the player has to activate of their own choice.

Just giving people a toggle for if they want it or not should be fine as you note, tho IMO block as a whole can be removed for RMB being the charge attack that you can hold infinitely (and works as blockglide while in air) to then release a high modifier attack MGRR jetstream sam style/that should be charge attacks as a whole. Meanwhile the block values can be cut in half and just made generic total 360 DR while on the melee weapon.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

5: There is literally no one alive that wants a self-playing game.
- I am alive! and I do want a self playing game, in fact I have several games that does that. It is all boiling down to preferers, genre and situation. tho what I think you are trying to say is "do not streamline this to the point I don't feel like I have any skills any more and do not streamline it to the point that I am no longer in control of my character" in that we are in agreement of. 
(and before you ask, some story based games, Tower defences that is inherently self playing, factorion! the quite essential self playing game, it is the bloody point of it! dwarf fortress! and yes, it is by the end of the game when the structure you have created is self sufficient that does not require your constant input, the hallmark of games you can set up structures. see factorion for further references of self playing)

hell yeah we are getting somewhere! onwards to the rest of the points!

This is completely unrelevant to melee... Unless you mean autoblock again as in point 4 in which case its not even the game playing itself, its the game interrupting to steal control from you, something far worse of a sin.

On 2019-04-19 at 12:45 AM, Ninubi said:

13:Who thought it was a good idea to change channeling from an intuitive, easy left-click?

It never was intuitive (if anything its one of the worst sins of the default keybind scheme) and the game even told you to change melee keybinds (and that quick vs true melee attack keybinds dont interfere with eachother) if you want to play melee. And its weaksauce usage by most people (as in most peoples builds cant use it for a equalization in rampup time for melee combo counter due to energy cost/not wanting to spam pizzas for nothing) is exactly why DT is a idea.