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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Ofeban:

I don't need my character goofily suspending itself in the air, pretending like it's Dante in DMC,

You mean exacly like during Blockgliding? 🤣

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

You mean exacly like during Blockgliding? 🤣

Blockgliding enables other inputs. For instance, rolling with RMB in the air maintains your warframes height. Without holding RMB, the roll succumbs to gravity through the animation. RMB to float the last couple milliseconds before you're in attack range of that Osprey. You seem to think that I'm holding Blockglide for extended periods, slowly floating across stages like a fairy. I'm not. I'm tapping RMB constantly at all times to control/cancel other commands and control my Warframe.

 

Yet another Edit: Just for clarification. My typically movement commands, when there's nothing obstructing in my way like a sudden hallway turn, goes as follows: CTRL + Space (Bulletjump), Space + RMB + Shift (Double jump for maximum height into a held front roll, maintaining the height and speed I've accumilated.) Sometimes I'll hover a moment with RMB after the initial Bulletjump, as I can use the double jump to cancel my in-air momentum and change directions, while still having my roll available to then move in any direction. And of course, tapping CTRL with RMB held at various moments to give my Warframe a burst of speed in the air. RMB is vital because it's basically my anti-gravity button in these scenarios.

Edited by Ofeban
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3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

If there is an action of the player required to start another, the latter action is not automatic. I'm pretty sure you still don't understand what the word "automatic" actually means.

Then don't press RMB. If you manage to not perform the action to switch to ranged, you won't and because of this you will blocking.

I actually did, you on the other hand were not capable of just excepting that other people have different opinions than you, so you had to directly critisize my personal opinion. So in the end, you really brought this on yourself. So, if you had left my opinion alone, I whouldn't have bothered engaging in converation with you.

TL;DR,

Just like with switching to a ranged weapon, my response to you wasn't automatic but a reaction.

If you whould be more aware of what you are doing, then neither whould you switch to your ranged weapon nor whould you have made a fool out of yourself by starting the conversation with me.

So, yeah, basically everything you are complaining about is your own fault... 👏

The weapon switch is unintended as blocking is the intention. So you're running your fingers like your mouth for nothing.

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Melee 3.0 was supposed to add more depth to warframe, not simplify it to the point where it feels secondary to even secondary weapons. Why could they not just give use a block, heavy attack and light attack? I did not need nor want the aim glide overriding all my melee weapons.

If that does not rub salt in the wound, melee weapons STILL don't get to use noble/agile animation sets like primary and secondary weapons do. It is complete BS and is made worse when wisp uses a melee weapon and looks like a mime pretending to run in the air, cause that was definitely not why they made a CUSTOM animation set since she kinda has no feet to use to walk or run! Meanwhile primary and secondary have NO problems using animations sets. It annoys me so much.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Walkampf said:

So, first, from the very beginning of Warframe, Tenno were always referenced as 'Warriors of gun and blade", not "gun OR blade" so, if you decide to not make use of your options, thats your own decision. Just as for example as a player who doesn't want to use skills. Nobody can stop you, but it's your own fault if you don't make use of the tools the devs give you and design their game around.

How convenient, then, that DE released an update titled "the sword alone" and allowed you to unequip all but one weapon of your choice.

Also, if you want to go the "use the tools the devs gave you" route, then we should be called "warriors of spore and miasma". Because that's far more effective at taking out large hordes of enemies than your gun.

Edited by DoomFruit
Missing word
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Add groundslam damage that scales with weapon. Melee Capabilities with archgun deployer space ninja needs an engineered swivel. Or archmelee add on. Oo

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Was the intended goal of Melee 3.0 to turn Melee 2.0 into Quick Melee 2.0? Here I was hoping Melee was once again becoming a viable approach to EVERY mission type again. I'm genuinely curious, are you (as developers) aware that ever since Dark Sectors disappeared you have made Melee in general a severely reduced aspect of the game? Raids, Sorties, Eidolons, Orb Mothers.... what content that you have right now, will have melee become a viable option for with this 3.0 release? If the answer is none, it's still not an improvement, no matter how pretty or "streamlined" it gets.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)DarwinsPlanB said:

Was the intended goal of Melee 3.0 to turn Melee 2.0 into Quick Melee 2.0? Here I was hoping Melee was once again becoming a viable approach to EVERY mission type again. I'm genuinely curious, are you (as developers) aware that ever since Dark Sectors disappeared you have made Melee in general a severely reduced aspect of the game? Raids, Sorties, Eidolons, Orb Mothers.... what content that you have right now, will have melee become a viable option for with this 3.0 release? If the answer is none, it's still not an improvement, no matter how pretty or "streamlined" it gets.

@DEDanielle I request that any developer at DE attempt any of the above mentioned content using only melee or even exalted melee weapons to complete said content. Using an operator to drop an Eidolon’s shields is obviously acceptable, I even don’t have an issue with an entire team of you trying this as long as it’s melee alone. Try it on your next Prime Time, I’d love to see if you stood by melee as it is (or as it will be full 3.0) after that.

Good luck!

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Phase 1 of the melee changes have now been in the game close to a month and I feel that's enough time to give feedback on it. This is my personal experience and feedback.

I'll try to list what I feel is good and bad about it, with my thoughts on how to improve it as sub bullet points, if I have any such thoughts.

The Good (With and without "Melee with Fire Weapon Input")

  • Directional ground slam is a great step in the right direction. But it doesn't feel finished.
    • The speed seem to have little or no acceleration which feels off.
    • The animation at the end of the slam is too slow. Many times you're better off just falling and landing like normal.
    • Does it have to be all or nothing? Some abilities will stop the animation completely (which I think is a bug or oversight) What if we could do a second jump to break the animation and then slam again? I think that would enhance directional slam overall.

The Bad (Both modes)

  • The auto-block when you have your melee weapon out (now? don't remember it slowing you down before) slows you done while jumping. This feels really bad. Suddenly the range of your jump will decreased and I won't end up where I expected to. This especially harmful when jumping over areas where if you fall down you'll be despawned.

The Bad (Without "Melee with Fire Weapon Input")

  • Smashing E to use melee feels weird and clunky and since the stance applied I kept doing weird moves I did not wish for. With this enabled I found myself constantly doing spin attacks instead, since that what was what felt the least bad.
    • I switched to "Melee with Fire Weapon input" to get back the ability to use melee with my mouse button again.

The Bad (With "Melee with Fire Weapon Input")

  • I constantly find myself using the wrong weapon type since I just did an aim glide, so the game switched weapons for me.
    • I've tried to aim glide less, but it's such an integral part of the movement, that it severely slowed me down. And even after close to a month of trying to change and get used to it I simply haven't been able to.

The directional ground slam is a step in the right direction in my opinion. I think it just needs a few tweaks to feel great!

The quick switch melee on the other hand is not, and it's hurting the fluidity of the movement and melee system. We've also lost the ability to quickly use our melee weapons without having the drawbacks of melee combos. Many of said combos will catapult you several meters forwards, often into a despawn spot which severely punishes you. Overall my enjoyment with the game has decreased since these changes where implemented.

I wish DE would remove fast weapon switching completely, and give us back quick melee attacks. Then just decrease weapon switching times across the board. This would prevent confusion from having the wrong weapon after doing an aim glide and the bad feeling from having to smash E to melee while still retaining a fluent melee combat system.

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Posted (edited)

Bring back the old system.. it was much more versatile.. i hate that it switches from my primary weapon to melee weapon cause i cant melee do it without quick hitting that 1 mob thats in my face and everytime i have to douple tap the weapon swap to bring back out my primary.. quick melee was great for volt prime.. especially with his speed up ability.. it didnt just make him run faster.. but it worked beautifully with the quick melee.. preventing me from hopping all over the place missing 70% of my attacks cause of these dumb combos.. if i wanted to do combo attacks id prefer to simply hold the swap button to bring it out.. this new system just makes go into battles without a melee weapon cause 90% of the combos are retarted for hopping everywhere and missing everything.. then they removed the glide feature with the melee too?.. i liked melee before this dumb update

Edited by (PS4)EpicSnak3
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On 2019-05-04 at 5:31 AM, DoomFruit said:

How convenient, then, that DE released an update titled "the sword alone" and allowed you to unequip all but one weapon of your choice.

That's not even remotely a fix but a VERY poorly thought out "filthy dish rag as a bandage" and is extremely counterproductive to this "warrior of blade and gun" thing the update was supposedly meant to accomplish. You can't change equipment mid mission and melee doesn't work on everything. 

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Alright, after trying out melee with the "use fire as melee button" option turned on and off, and I have to say that having the option turned on feels like pre-2.9999999 melee mode with the exception of the fact that I can't manual block or glide. Blocking was near useless anyway, but not being able to glide really stings, so I suggest that when/if you kill channeling, use the button to turn on aim-glide and toggle between stance combos and quick melee combos, that way you give the player the ability to aim-glide without forcing them out of melee mode and you give them back their quick-melee if they want it, all the while preserving their new ability to just aim and shoot on the fly. An added bonus is that you could also use it to toggle between our current directional aerial attacks and the yet-to-be-implemented aerial combos. For players that are complaining about combos being clunky and not meshing with the parkour movement, this would give them the option to pick and choose between a simpliflied-but-agile "quick mode" and a complex but rooted "stance mode".

So to clarify once more, the way this button would work is that the player starts in a "quick mode" that defaults to quick-melee behavior. If they press/toggle on the button, they now use stance combos instead, and glide if they are currently airborne. If they then release/toggle off the button, they revert to quick-melee, and resume falling if they were gliding in the air. I would expect some sort of visual indicator of which mode they are in, perhaps keep the channeling animations to signify that the player is in stance mode.

TLDR: I want to be able to glide while staying in melee mode again, but I like aiming and shooting when I see a nullifier or osprey, so I think another button that allows gliding for melee would be good.

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Posted (edited)

R.I.P. sparring weapons. I'm not a fast fist ninja anymore. I'm a shty midnight dancer now, trying to kill everyone with my slow mo brakedance...

You definitely should do something with sparring stances....Boxing, karate, taekwondo, muay thai etc. There's a lot of martial arts. But not that dancing, that no one would use in a fight.

Edited by JotunFrost
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Posted (edited)

It's been over 2 months and we haven't heard back from DE yet?

All they need to do is give us:

1. A setting in the controls options to make channeling held instead of toggled.

2. A toggle in the controls options to turn autoblocking on or off (default on).

3. The ability to quick melee again, but only if we are meleeing while sprinting forward (running forward uses stance combo).

4. The ability to switch to our melee weapon again if we hold down the switch weapon button long enough.

Right now, glaive melee functionality is broken and players can't switch to glaive melee mode if you have a one-handed secondary equipped. It's also strange that glaives are the only weapons to have a quick melee combo anymore...

Edited by KitMellow
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Posted (edited)

I'd like to have a toggle option to enable manual blocking. Small thing, but I'm not sure how auto-blocking works with Guardian Derision. Does it render the mod useless now?

Edited by youcoldyet

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I pop in and read the new comments from time to time.... STILL HATED BY MELEE MAINS. that's nice I guess since I'm melee only I don't need to bother updating. Why is warframe suddenly lacking in melee depth of control???

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I fear that the reason that there is no comment from DE about this is because they intend to push ahead to Melee 3.0 anyway, and our feedback is mostly meant for very, very fine fine-tuning in the system they're already going to implement no matter what. If that is the case (and without any official word we can only guess that this is the case), then that suggests massive confidence in Melee 3.0. Specifically, confidence that the Melee 3.0 system will be so different (and thus improved? I guess?) as to make most to all of our current concerns irrelevant. It feels strange speculating with so little information, but that's where we're at right now.

The best I currently hope for is having "no stance/quick melee" as a stance all its own, as some people in this thread have suggested... despite the fact that many of the other problems with this system would persist, even if DE did stomp out all of the bugs and other technical issues.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)GrandisSupernus said:

I fear that the reason that there is no comment from DE about this is because they intend to push ahead to Melee 3.0 anyway, and our feedback is mostly meant for very, very fine fine-tuning in the system they're already going to implement no matter what. If that is the case (and without any official word we can only guess that this is the case), then that suggests massive confidence in Melee 3.0. Specifically, confidence that the Melee 3.0 system will be so different (and thus improved? I guess?) as to make most to all of our current concerns irrelevant. It feels strange speculating with so little information, but that's where we're at right now.

I don't think that's it.  There's a large amount of feedback in this thread that very strongly suggests (to me, anyway) that the majority of melee mains are not happy with what we have (I know I am not).  Beyond that, though, more than anything else, players just want some kind of response from DE regarding the state of melee.  If they had a plan that they were very confident would address all of our criticisms and make melee amazing, wouldn't they just, you know, say so?  Even something as small as a short developer's workshop post about the current major criticisms with melee and how the rest of the implementation would address them would satisfy a lot of players, but they haven't done that.  In the meantime, they've done developer's workshops and similar posts about a ton of other similarly borked systems (Nightwave, Arbitration, Riven trading, etc.).

So, more speculation (cause what else are we going to do?):  they haven't said anything because they don't know what they're going to do with melee anymore.  I think they didn't anticipate such a large, negative reaction to the first stage of their revamp that now, they're questioning the rest of it.  They won't rollback the first phase because they're DE and they never rollback any large update, but at the same time, they don't know how they're going to go forward, and they don't want to admit that, either.

 

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Posted (edited)

Started playing Valkyr and realized right away that the new melee has messed that up too. Hit my 4th ability to open that can of woopass and hit fire and my main weapon comes out. Go to block (instinctively) and weapon comes out. Go to aim glide by blocking and main weapon comes out. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!  I've griped and griped about this but all you did DE is take control out of the advanced players. You didn't give us anything except frustration at an arbitrary change. Please give us 2.0 back. It really sucks to have to constantly change "Melee with fire weapon input" on and off depending how I want to play. The ground slam, insta-combo out of the gate and auto block takes control out of your hands like it was before. Ground slam actually had some skill involved now I don't even have to jump in the air just point at the ground. I used to feel really good when pulling off moves before. Now I just want to smash my keyboard into pieces every time it happens. Fire the buffoon that came up with this idea. Was clearly not thought through!

I used to have quick melee set to G key. I had melee attack set to LMB and G (so no mater what I hit it was instinctive and I could hammer two keys to melee). Blocking and aim was set to space bar (I could always aim glide no matter the weapon used). It worked AWESOME! I was the master of my universe. Now some fat bastard stole my mojo. Please DE can I have my mojo back?

They did a role back of the archwing debacle. Here's a fix, how about keeping my archwing from rolling when I'm on the plains or Venus. I hate it when I'm flying around and I have to constantly correct my attitude to flat flight. Doesn't even make sense why they did that.

Edited by Meatsikle
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It's been a while since I was last in these forums, but I had to give my feedback on this.

Pause combos don't work, they don't flow well with the game, never did, I was fully expecting melee 3.0 to fix that by adding a heavy attack mixed with a light for more intuitive combos(or at least just a second attack button for the same combo style), instead the first 'wave' of changes took what we have right now and made it objectively worse.

The melee mode being a fast swap was all we needed in term of what they changed, but making it so it's not a full weapon swap was a huge step back. It's like being back to the old melee system where it was only quick melee, there is a reason people enjoyed the change because quick melee limits the potential and usability of melee. Just add it in the cycle of weapons or better yet give it it's own button to switch to melee mode by default like you could do yourself with the old system.

Blocking needed to be more rewarding not automatic and jarring, people barely used blocking because it barely did anything, the idea that channelled blocking reflected some damage was interesting at least but this automatic blocking takes away from the point of having a block at all, might as well just add a damage reduction while using melee if you are going to go that route(which I also don't recommend). Instead blocking should be made more proactive, have block be on a limited timer like sticking to the wall while aiming and have it reduce damage taken depending on melee weapon, big slow weapons being 100% reduction and smaller weapons having a limited reduction, then on a well timed block you reflect some damage for a few seconds while blocking. 

Of course all of this applies to the obvious, melee ultimate abilities, hell even if these changes aren't overturned they should be overturned for melee ultimates, it's so bizarre using the ability and if you were shooting it does nothing, using the melee on normal attack after switch doesn't work because there are other buttons that have the same effect. 

Melee 2.0 was a giant leap up, so far melee 2.9 has just been 0.5 steps forward and 10 steps back.

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Posted (edited)

still nothing. tsk tsk.

Edited by SilviaS12
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Yea, we should at least get melee sprinting and manual block back, if not full rollback of phase 1. Or at the very least a real response to the numerous fundamental problems of 3.0 so far.

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Ever since DE removed the ability to enter melee mode the game has essentially become unplayable.

Like what was the logic behind removing Key binding customizations? Why would you forcefully remove a good thing? There is no reason that it shouldn't exist. This entire game is about customization and player choice which is why i just can't grasp why its being taken away.

 

Please DE, reinstate melee mode.

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Unplaya...what? As far as I'm mostly negative toward latest changes and even more grindframe, new melee is one of the best things that happened lately in the game. Thanks to it doing combos in mission doesn't require you to choose either firearms of melee weapon but you can switch between them (quite) fluently on the fly. It surely needs some fixes still, like blocking. But remember it's not complete and it probably won't be until new channeling is out (unless this idea is scraped).

Tbh the only thing that I'd change is pause-based combos, as it really varies between weapon types and it can be annoying when you are using stuff like Berserker.

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Steve posted this on Twitter earlier today, demoing finisher cutscenes

https://mobile.twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/1129385939980177409

This makes finishers even slower than they already are, which is remarkable considering most everyone builds their finisher daggers around speed specifically to avoid the long animations. How have two and a half months straight of "make melee combat smoother, faster and more fluid" feedback resulted in "slow things down more and take more control away from the player"?

I genuinely don't think anyone's reading this. Maybe it's our fault for posting our feedback in the official feedback thread, maybe we should be posting it exclusively on Twitter so someone might actually see it.

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