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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Any official response on this? They clearly need to backpedal this thing.

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On 2019-05-17 at 5:26 PM, Gene_Freak said:

This makes finishers even slower than they already are, which is remarkable considering most everyone builds their finisher daggers around speed specifically to avoid the long animations. How have two and a half months straight of "make melee combat smoother, faster and more fluid" feedback resulted in "slow things down more and take more control away from the player"?

On 2019-05-19 at 11:44 AM, -Krux- said:

Any official response on this? They clearly need to backpedal this thing.

I am so very sad and frustrated about this exhausting affair, and I am going to keep speaking up as long the problems we used to be free from in our game-play persist.

I maintain everything I have previously said, especially in light of a few of my more recent posts to this thread mysteriously "vanishing". This has not been, and still is not, the right way to go with things. DE needs to give any sign at all that they read this, and are aware with player's numerous issues with the "improvements". 

I just don't understand, and I quite legitimately have not found combat enjoyable; neither during nor since Buried Debts.

If the goal was to streamline and make more enjoyable and fun combat for the player, then:

  • Why did you remove the dedicated melee-mode slot; forcing gun-play, and reducing melee weapons to a side garnish we can barely steer, rather than an equally valid way of fighting through the level? Players should always have a choice in how they fight. 
  • Why did you remove quick attacks; ensuring that anyone unfortunate enough to mainly use Sparring Weapons prior to Buried Debts is now stuck in the awkward, rocket-launching break-dancing of both of the weapon category's fairly awful stances? This is not even bringing up how much harder the lack of quick attack has made Spy missions; chiefly from the increased risk of catapulting into a melee combo, and subsequently smacking a Sensor Regulator or tripping a Laser.
  • Why was blocking that the player actively and genuinely controls removed? Automatic block is not only condescending toward players, as well as incredibly boring and frustrating; the AI governing this "innovation" has proven itself quite thoroughly brain-dead the past few months. I am getting very tired of it "helpfully" taking me out of sniper scope to try and parry a single osprey bolt launched from 500m away.
  • Continuing the above, who thought that would be a good addition? RMB combos still don't work properly, the blocking bonuses of X-and-Shield-category melee weapons are currently all but useless, and we can't aimglide during melee anymore. Auto-block didn't improve or streamline anything, it removed fun parts of parkour like using my air attack in melee to boost a jump even further, or flip around and turn the opposite direction while still in mid-air. The feeling of pulling that sort of ninja acrobatics off was awesome, and I sincerely miss it. But like RMB-involving combos, it's pretty much obliterated now.
  • Why did you compound the issue of not having a genuine melee mode even further; by giving us a clumsy, vague, and far-too-wide UI reticule? The reticule may have the dot in the middle, but it implies a larger area is being struck on the enemy's hitbox than actually exists. It's much harder to correctly judge and aim throws using Glaives now; and the same applies to Sigma & Octantis, Cobra & Crane, and the Wolf Sledge. Making our throws, air attacks, and ground slams sloppier and more difficult to align properly is not an improvement. I miss the old, simple, less intrusive single dot; which proved itself far more precise and less visually intrusive in the HUD.
  • Why do Exalted Melee and Ranged weapons no longer override "normal" weapons, with the two exceptions of Regulators and Balefire Charger? This hasn't made anything more convenient; and instead it lowered both the enjoyability and DPS of such skills from their constant interruption by mundane actions like reload. If I am hulking out with Hysteria, I can quite assure you that I do not want my Valk to stop channeling it until either every foe is dead, I get downed, or I run out of energy. Having my awesome and insanely metal Wolverine-style rampage halted to refill a boring, normal gun is not something I ever asked for.
  • Why are the graphical bugs that these changes brought to Exalted Weapons still not fixed? Hysteria continues to flicker quite literally with every hit on a foe; exiting out of its own color-correction of orange "berserker haze" to normal graphics. This is epileptic to witness and has made a formerly fun skill a nightmarish mess of eye fatigue.
  • Similarly, Excalibur now will randomly warp in posture, abruptly holding Exalted Blade like a Rifle, Bow, or Pistol; and then continue to "slice" and launch waves that still register as hits on the enemies; albeit no longer with his attack animations. Even dying will not fix this, and I have seen it persist until I extract. Running along as a rigid corpse with no animation in the upper body is not exactly conducive to feeling like I am a master swordsman.
  • Why were weapon trails turned so opaque compared to before? They used to be pleasingly translucent while still being glowing; now they are so opaque and saturated it's like someone splashed paint on the UI. It isn't half as appealing to look at, and it's worsened eye fatigue.
  • While the addition of elemental effects actually receiving the energy color of ranged and melee weapons was admittedly a good visual update; the new element FX themselves are not fun to look at. Electricity is super-bright and flickers painfully fast, in contrast to the pleasing, continuous Tesla-coil-style arc effects it used to grant. The same goes for Blast, with the added distraction of the huge chunks that fly off the weapon. Fire went from tongues of flame to being a vague, glowing cloud that doesn't really resemble actual fire and often mysteriously floats a few feet from the weapons' business ends. Radiation went from a suitably ominous glow to the wavy distortions seen on the surface of a car in hot summer weather. The changes to Cold damage actually do look nice, but I would suggest removing the trail of snowflakes and increasing the number of icicles. Having an ice-spike covered greatsword is cool; having a greatsword with freezer burn, less so. Toxin, Viral, Gas, and Magnetic are just variations on some sort of cloud of vague fuzziness, and frankly don't look very imposing anymore. Finally, though, the ungodly maelstrom of particles added to each and every element was completely unnecessary. I want an elemental weapon to look imposing, not like it's caked in bioluminescent confetti sprinkles.
  • Slam attacks being aimable was a good change. Slam attacks now uselessly launching foes 40 feet away at random angles was quite decidedly not a good change. It's lowered overall DPS from the number of stance combos that end in a slam, making hits go to waste; and it's also rendered ground finishers impossible to perform in time before the target stands back up. Please, just restore slams to causing knockdown; and make them crush/slice apart/impale the foe if the damage from the slam kills them. 
  • Above all else, why, why, why are you guys now planning to implement this completely inconvenient and time-consuming alteration to finishers? An elaborate cutscene to finish something off is only warranted on a Grand Boss like Exploiter Orb; where it makes sense for us to have a cinematic of us going all Shadow of the Colossus on a foe, it is absolutely unneeded in every other regard. I don't want to have to endure an eight-second animation every time I was hoping to quickly and brutally stealth kill a butcher. Mobs do not warrant any kind of cinematic or zoom-in.

To emphasize that it's not all negative, I simply find the melee and visual changes unpleasant and awkward, here's some things this year I have liked:

  • Warframe's surprisingly dark lore, and the interpersonal relationships that make NPCs feel more like people. I find myself genuinely curious what actions Little Duck took that even Business considered excessive, making the two spies grow distant. I genuinely wanted to hug Zuud when she started weeping at - well, spoilers to those who haven't done Thermia Fracture events or weren't around for Buried Debts. I was sincerely horrified to learn about Deck 12 and brain-shelving. Horribly tedious as he was to fight, I sympathize with the Wolf of Saturn Six, and understand why his mistreatment even by his own species has left him convinced that the whole System is out to get him and his pack. An impressive feat, for a neutral field boss who at present only vocalizes in howling.
  • The Foley Artistry. DE_Sheldon and all the other sound designers do a fantastic job, and in particular with creature sounds/vocal distortion. Profit-Taker's guttural and disturbingly baby-like roar-whisper is magnificently terrifying; and her rhyming makes it even worse in the best way. The nasal, far more human, Margaret Thatcher-like indignant barks of Exploiter are also suitably unnerving, but in a much different way. Wolf's howl is not merely furious, but clearly stuttering and pained; making it quite clear that this rogue Grineer is in his own way just as mentally broken and paranoid as Umbra. I never get tired of hearing Valkyr's notorious REEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH, HYAAAAAAAAGH, and RAAAAAAAAAAAGHK; when using Warcry, Paralysis, and Hysteria respectively; send my compliments to both Megan for the gnarly screams and the sound team for amplifying her and turning it more metallic. The stuttering RUKukUKUkUKuKuk of Soma and Soma Prime is still my favorite gun noise, though for the reasons I mentioned above, players should always have a choice in whether we are using ranged or melee combat; as opposed to awkwardly mashing them together.
  • The designs and artists. From Keith Thompson to Janice Cho (who created most of the UI symbols we know and are familiar with), Warframe is a refreshing break from overly narrow ideas of what looks traditionally "cool". The ringed and filigreed decadence of Prime/Orokin tech, the curving and sharp flow of Tenno weapons, the boxy utilitarianism of Corpus machinery, and the mass-produced Brutalist sickliness of Grineer... ...well, everything; are all instantly iconic. There is no mistaking any faction for one another in Warframe. Even the Sentients have a signature look, with their ridged stone/bone structures, glowing gelatinous segments, eerie glow, and attenuated elongation.
  • The hard work and dedication you all have as a company to improving the game. This issue, and it's mounting number of problems to both fun and game mechanics, is the single topic I have ever seen DE be slow to respond to. Barring 2.9 and the continuing exasperation of players in this thread, you all typically are swift to patch and refine things. I still hold hope you will finally address everything criticized here, and work with rather than against player feedback; as you always have as a studio.

 

TL;DR: You guys at Digital Extremes have done done great things again and again, and proven friendly and approachable; and no one doubts the kind of effort that you guys all put in to improve Warframe.

With that said, the changes you've made to combat are not working out, and we hope that you will revert what were poor decisions while keeping what were genuine improvements. Don't exhaust yourselves, crunch is the enemy of quality work the world over; but please try to fix the things that have gone awry.

Please restore a dedicated melee mode and keep weapons non-glued-to-each-other. 

Please let us control our own block again, and make it a hold-and-release again; rather than an awkward toggle as it currently was "fixed" back into, which only really works for aim.

Please, please, please do not implement unnecessary finisher cinematics. If your goal is to make combat faster and more fun, this works in direct counterpoint to that objective.

Please allow us all the simple satisfaction of being able to whip out our melee weapons again, and have them stay out no matter what; unless, of course, we choose to switch back to ranged. We should still have that choice, and I don't know why it was taken away.

Please make weapon trails more translucent again and non-continuous; and change the new elemental effects to still use the weapon energy color, but actually look like that element. The current confetti storm of particles and bubbles is distracting and unappealing, not pretty.

Please make slam attacks actually be slams that knock down things again; as opposed to launches that catapult foes far beyond the reach of what was formerly an easy follow-up attack. I miss impaling downed foes with Galatine, or punching them til they exploded with Ankyros.

 

And finally:

Please remember that I, and many other players, still appreciate you all; but that so far this is not the good way to take things, DE. We are justifiably a bit frustrated that the team has implemented changes that have so far done anything but make combat more enjoyable; and indeed several have so far made it less fun than it used to be.

You guys are great, and we all know you are definitely hard-working; but please fix the issues you caused and make some indication that you still listen.

 

Patiently awaiting the day my Venka work right again,

-Maxim

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I check this thread periodically to see if there has been any response to the feedback posted by me and many other dissatisfied players, but it appears that 40 pages of people mostly saying the same few things over and over isn't sufficient to get the point across.  Or, more unfortunately, it is sufficient, but DE just doesn't care.  Melee isn't fun anymore, and having to make "gun-less" loadouts just to get some of the old functionality back is both tedious and maddening.  Adding insult to injury, I still see "Spin To Win" everywhere.  I know it's probably confirmation bias on my part, but It actually feels like there are more people using Maiming Strike builds now than before the rework (I wish I could see the stats on that).  I guess the future of melee is slide attack macros.  Maybe DE can officially add those in as part of Melee 3.0.

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hace 50 minutos, am0rtized dijo:

I check this thread periodically to see if there has been any response to the feedback posted by me and many other dissatisfied players, but it appears that 40 pages of people mostly saying the same few things over and over isn't sufficient to get the point across.  Or, more unfortunately, it is sufficient, but DE just doesn't care.  Melee isn't fun anymore, and having to make "gun-less" loadouts just to get some of the old functionality back is both tedious and maddening.  Adding insult to injury, I still see "Spin To Win" everywhere.  I know it's probably confirmation bias on my part, but It actually feels like there are more people using Maiming Strike builds now than before the rework (I wish I could see the stats on that).  I guess the future of melee is slide attack macros.  Maybe DE can officially add those in as part of Melee 3.0.

Well, I started to use spin to win simply because DE remove my quick melee, and with that the ability of using melee and mantain my momentum is gone.

And I hate spin to win.

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Posted (edited)

Please DE, do not cave in, your changes are almost perfect, this is merely phase 1.

What most people here are complaining is meaningless, the new melee system is much, much better than the last one.

 

We don't need Quick melee, quick melee was inferior to dedicated melee in all aspects, much weaker in damage, lack of dedicated combos prevented you from depending on forced slash procs, multihits and damage multipliers. Making status melee weapons simply not work. For people that complain about lack of mobility or(they are unskilled and can't control combos that have movement) they should learn that you can cancel certain melee animations with roll, increasing your survivability and granting you a large boost in speed. So no lack of quick melee does not reduce your mobility.

Changing modes was also extremely clunky and one way to an early grave due to waiting 2-4 seconds on holtering animations.

These people are wrong, they don't want to properly learn the melee system. All their problems can be easily circunvented by simply educating their button presses.

THey are having problems with block combos because instead of using the command properly they pick the easy way out and hold block before they even press a button, this can be easily fixed on player side by just starting your combo before you hold block, this will prevent you from changing weapons to your guns.Or they could simply execute the combo properly and only hold block before the button that actually asks for the command. To illustrate Press E, Hold Block during the first attack animation and continue pressing E. There, a new Lazy way for your lazy needs. one that doesn't change your weapons

The auto block also works properly, you can easily do everything you did before by simply not spamming E as if your life depended on it. Defense glide is not really needed because aim glide already makes enemy miss their shots.(and no Maxim_M_Payne auto block doesn't remove you from your sniper reticle, what happened here is that you are probably using knockdown prevention mods, as they also use blocking animations when they proc, as someone who plays mostly on snipers and other single target wepons I can definitely say that the auto block is a non issue)

The changes to Exalted weapons DID NOT cause any problems to DPS rather they actually increase it. By using Status secondaries you can increase the damage on Exalted Weapons massively through status procs. Pox and Zakti became almost mandatory on status or hybrid weapons due the the amount of status effects these weapons can deliver in one shot.

The new Opaque effects now make it easier to discern the path and range of our melee weapons, making it easier to land headshots with it, this was also a large improvement.

Although any changes that lenghen the animations might hurt the flow of the game this is the one complaint I can agree with.

Otherwise please I ask that you don't really revert any of the changes. Melee is currently great, more fun that i've ever had in this game. Specially when making use of melee forced staggers to stop enemies in place for a beautiful close range headshot.

If anything the only thing that really need fixing is the bugs, I did notice a few visual bugs, but they are not that big of a problem. The real problem lies on slams, when enemies can get launched(which is ok), but during the launch the ragdoll effect breaks and the enemies start flying around ricocheting on walls like a pinball machine. THis is a serious bug becuse the enemies get tosed outside our screen, not only do we lose damage when it happens, it also prevents us from using ground finishers and sometimes allow enemies to recover off screen and start shooting again, defeating the purpose of using ragdolls as quick CC to stop enemies from shooting and using melee safely.

 

Edited by DreadWarlock
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auto-block kills me more than it helps me, since it both disrupts combos and when you're channeling it consumes energy (even in hysteria, which gets no benefit from blocking whatsoever).  ragdoll force on melee attacks has gotten too excessive. not having manual melee aim glide sucks, but AUTOBLOCK IN THE AIR TRIGGERING AIM GLIDE SUCKS WORSE! Why? the dozens of times it triggers and I land out of bounds, losing any buffs I have active at the worst possible times. Out of the melee changes, I only see the aimable slams as a good thing, the rest is horrible. If they wanted faster weapon switching, they could have reduced the holster time significantly, that would have done the job without making melee a pain to use. Also, there's a reason people used quick melee: a lot of stances are badly made, and they also slow you down significantly, making you look and feel clumsy. Need I also mention brutal tide and those like it? Unusable.

My problems are summarized as a loss of overall control, flow, and flexibility...and by extension, enjoyment.

DreadWarlock: Go back and re-read the 41 pages again. there's plenty of reasons for many of us to be upset. Especially with a lack of DE response on their own feedback thread.

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Posted (edited)

 

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Please DE, do not cave in, your changes are almost perfect, this is merely phase 1.

What most people here are complaining is meaningless, the new melee system is much, much better than the last one.

This doesn't mean it's fine to disregard the opininon and experience of every other loyal player because you personally didn't see all the issues with the changes.

What most people here are complaining about are the sacrifices made, which aren't really compensated for what we actually got in return. Realistically speaking, what we got were mostly tradeoffs.

The reason why we are here is so that we can hopefully better steer the direction of the phase 2 changes going forward.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

We don't need Quick melee, quick melee was inferior to dedicated melee in all aspects, much weaker in damage, lack of dedicated combos prevented you from depending on forced slash procs, multihits and damage multipliers. Making status melee weapons simply not work. For people that complain about lack of mobility or(they are unskilled and can't control combos that have movement) they should learn that you can cancel certain melee animations with roll, increasing your survivability and granting you a large boost in speed. So no lack of quick melee does not reduce your mobility.

But why should everything be black or white? Certain quick melee combos were core to gameplay styles, actually being more efficient, useful, faster and more fun than a lot of the dedicated combos. If quick melee combos were added back across the weapon classes, only triggered if you were holding the sprint & forward button while spamming the melee button, then everyone benefits without any loss.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Changing modes was also extremely clunky and one way to an early grave due to waiting 2-4 seconds on holtering animations.

The issue of not having proper switching modes as an option is that there are still some older weapon mechanics that haven't been addressed. Glaives for example require a proper melee mode in order to function. Right now, if you have a glaive + secondary equipped, there is actually no way to switch to the glaive's melee mode, because your melee button is tied to Glaive throw and quick melee, and holding the switch weapon button doesn't switch the glaive into melee mode. The glaive throw mechanic also behaves differently when used with a secondary as opposed to full melee mode, so unless they streamlined and consolidated glaives somehow, what we have now is downright illogical and broken.

Aside from this, as an option of choice I don't see any downsides of adding back in the ability to switch into your melee mode manually by holding the switch weapon button, whether it's for filmaking/animation/captura purposes, or for functional purposes.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

The auto block also works properly, you can easily do everything you did before by simply not spamming E as if your life depended on it.

Auto block is not desirable for all cases, if you are running a Rage/Hunter Adrenaline build and are in melee mode, whether it's Exalted or not, you want to be able to intentionally take more damage at times. This is only one of the issues, there's always frequent annoyances of auto-blocking animations interrupting your mobility, actions, and melee combos on top of it all.

The only way to solve this is to give players a choice by implementing an option in the Controls Settings as Auto Blocking on or off, just like how the "Melee Auto Targeting" can be turned on or off.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Defense glide is not really needed because aim glide already makes enemy miss their shots.

Tell this to every Excalibur main out there, I'm sure you know the reason why Grineer are so dangerous is because of their hitscan weapons in addition to the scaling.

In any case, there's absolutely no reason to remove blocking while aimgliding like what they've done. The only way we can resemble aimgliding while blocking now is to perform a lengthy air attack animation during a glide while losing height before gliding again, which basically defeats the purpose of gliding to begin with.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

The new Opaque effects now make it easier to discern the path and range of our melee weapons, making it easier to land headshots with it, this was also a large improvement.

Again, this does not apply to all weapons. Certain weapons like Fist weapons, Sparring weapons and especially Nunchakus, now all have excessive and garish effects that are much less cleaner, are less sensible, and are much less functional than the old opaque weapon trails. The new effects on these weapons are actually harder to tell the range of them, and exactly where you are in a combo at any given time.

22 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Otherwise please I ask that you don't really revert any of the changes. Melee is currently great, more fun that i've ever had in this game. Specially when making use of melee forced staggers to stop enemies in place for a beautiful close range headshot.

Even the last aspect you mentioned could be improved. If they wanted more gun and melee interplay, they could have further extended the 1 second window of which you can melee, shoot, and resume meleeing from where left off in the combo to 2 or 3 seconds, so that there's better to the flow to the gameplay and more options.

The last point I'll make is absolutely criminal: In 2 months, they still have not addressed the most basic of all feedback which is to allow melee channeling to be pressed/held instead of toggled as an option in the settings...

Why has this not been done? The forced toggle right now makes using mods like Life Strike extremely awkward/clunky for most people, and makes it difficult to tell if you are still channeling at times. Compounded by the fact that channeling drains so much energy on every hit, and the forced autoblock during channeling draining even more energy. What this all this means is that channeling is even more dead than it was before the phase 1 changes.

Edited by KitMellow
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

Please DE, do not cave in, your changes are almost perfect

I must objectively disagree. I have not enjoyed combat, either melee or as a whole, since Buried Debts. I have listed the numerous reasons for this time and time again; but it seems I will list them again. I am afraid my patience extends only to the development team, and not to your individual insistence that they continue to ignore genuine problems in their so-called "improvement". THREE AND A HALF MONTHS such issues have gone ignored; so let's recap one more time, in what is undoubtedly far from the last exhausting case of having to rephrase myself over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

  • Automatic block interrupts scopes and reloading and attempts to block things that don't even do damage, like the vomit of Infested Nausea Crawlers. It will get stunned in a defense loop against multiple firing opponents; trying to block them all, and that keeps the player from firing gunblades. It is condescending, irritating, unwarranted, and a profoundly frustrating example of designing a game to play itself; so that the player funnels more money to the developer, without actually experiencing or doing anything.
  • The lack of a dedicated melee slot is also unsatisfying, and taking it out removed any illusion of impact from all weapons in the melee category. Nothing feels like my Warframe is genuinely holding it anymore, and my brain is no longer fooled so that I experience any sensation of actual collision. Compounding this flaw is the fact it forces a predominantly ranged play-style, rather than allowing the player to choose how they play, which results in even more frustration. Forcing gun-play is just as bad as forcing melee. All players should be equally effective in their combat and given a choice in how they decided to kill legions of foes. Buried Debts took that choice away, and with it, my enjoyment. I am, quite simply, never going to approve of this narrowing of options and dumbing-down of combat.
  • I can understand the removal of channeling, but the detonation of throwing weapons should have remained controlled by Mouse1. Attempting to tap E with the right timing mid-flight; so as to explode the Wolf Sledge, Glaive, or any similar melee, quite simply no longer works, nine times out of ten.
  • DE now intends to make finishers, which are already tediously prolonged, into outright cinematics that will affect every single foe. This includes mere nuisances like the lowly Butcher; and it will accomplish nothing but making combat slower and even less satisfying. If trying to be stealthy during a mission, I absolutely do NOT desire an entire 8-second ballet show to affect my opponent; I want a quick, clean, and brutal instant assassination. 
  • The removal of hold-and-release RMB was disastrous. Replaced by a clumsy Mouse2 toggle that only works if you keep hitting E; now RMB switches to guns, compounding the issue of forcing one play-style in favor of another. Being forced into using a gun is frankly almost a mercy, as melee has become so janky that it is no longer fun; and as I have stated so many times before, no amount of anime influence or awkward attempts to ape over-choreographed action films will change the fact that melee stopped being fun with Buried Debts, and still isn't any better or more satisfying of an "upgrade" now. IT. WAS. BETTER. BEFORE. 
On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

What most people here are complaining is meaningless

Ninety percent of my combat in-game, prior to the February of this incredibly disappointing year, was melee. Melee combat is what first made me decide to keep Warframe on my Steam account, and the sensations it used to bring are what sold me on the premise. IT WAS FUN. Emphasis upon the "was". I'm no longer a space ninja, I'm a space "12-year-old in Call of Duty"; and that original magic that won me over to the lore's premise is dead.

You have the audacity to call my complaints meaningless? Every single complaint I have made previously, and that I restate yet again now, relates to the core of my game-play, and to the very combat system that I used to love so dearly. I've seen it all brutally gutted in favor of alleged "streamlining"; and I'd be lying if I said that the condescension of players like you doesn't frustrate me just as equally as DE's silence about addressing any of the aforementioned issues does. If you came here to tell me to be quiet, and to pretend and lie that I have been enjoying myself for the past quarter of a year, then why did you post to this thread at all?

On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

Changing modes was also extremely clunky and one way to an early grave due to waiting 2-4 seconds on holtering animations.

An issue that was easily resolved by the far more rational choice to inherently increase holster speeds across the board; and to give replacement bonuses to all the mods that currently speed Holstering up. The very existence of those mods proves that DE is more than capable of making this far simpler change to core game mechanics; and I can tell you from personal experience that even just the Speed Holster Aura makes switching to a weapon take less than a second.

You want clunky? Clunky is switching to a rifle when you hit RMB, even when you are also pressing E simultaneously; especially when muscle-memory tells you that you should be beginning the Resplendent Calma combo of Tempo Royale. Clunky is having the simple, satisfying choice to do your own blocking for yourself taken out of your hands and put in the hands of an AI; an AI which quite frankly couldn't spill water out of a boot if there were instructions on the heel. Clunky is the removal of controls from your hands, and lessening the amount of the game you actually play. Clunky is the only thing that describes the past three and a half months, and I will not be silent about this mess.

On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

These people are wrong, they don't want to properly learn the melee system. All their problems can be easily circunvented by simply educating their button presses.

That is a long-winded way of stating what you really mean: "I think that you are all idiots, and your opinions should be disregarded because I don't like them." Your hostility contributes nothing and exacerbates the issue.

On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

no Maxim_M_Payne auto block doesn't remove you from your sniper reticle, what happened here is that you are probably using knockdown prevention mods

Want to know a secret? I've never, ever, ever used any auto-performance mods on anything. Not once did I ever install Parry, Reflex Guard, or Sure Footed, because having the game perform itself for me makes it cease to be a game and turns everything boring, much like automatic blocking. I still don't use those mods; so kindly do not tell me that I didn't experience the bug, when I very definitely experienced the bug. Your denial of problems does not remove them from existence.

On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

The changes to Exalted weapons DID NOT cause any problems to DPS rather they actually increase it. By using Status secondaries you can increase the damage on Exalted Weapons massively through status procs. Pox and Zakti became almost mandatory on status or hybrid weapons due the the amount of status effects these weapons can deliver in one shot.

You ignore the core issue: that wielding Exalted Weapons was far more fun than using the normal weapons; and it is the exact opposite of fun to have my former bestial rampage as Valkyr interrupted. Especially when it halts in order to fire an indescribably lame, plain old pistol. I want to claw everything to death again, until I no longer have Energy; or nothing is still alive. A berserker that isn't utterly consumed by rage doesn't feel like a berserker, and everything that made me fall in love with Valkyr has been neutered out of her gameplay experience. Good to know my time spent farming her even cooler Prime was put to complete waste.

And again, this is an example of forcing game-play without choices. Moddable Exalted Weapons were more than deadly enough already, and I didn't need alteration to what was working perfectly fine. An 80% critical chance with 1000+ damage of all three physical types upon my claws was just fine and dandy. I miss relentless mauling foes with them, and it's abundantly clear you came to this thread to presume you know better than me, and what I should enjoy about combat. Spoiler alert: it isn't any of this.

On 2019-05-22 at 8:47 PM, DreadWarlock said:

The new Opaque effects now make it easier to discern the path and range of our melee weapons, making it easier to land headshots with it, this was also a large improvement.

The retina-searing trails most assuredly do not aid in any of these things. Ever since Buried Debts, every single weapon swing has been so blazingly over-saturated that it obscures my screen, so, in fact, it is now far harder than ever to hack and slash with the freedom and accuracy players used to have. The weapons glowed plenty bright before, and already had a clearly obvious trail. But, for some inconceivable reason, DE decided for us that all those weapon effects should now resemble a trailing slice of the sun itself. A game that used to cause no visual issues for me now causing me eye strain in less than half an hour is usually a very, very good indicator that things are overdone. This didn't make anything prettier, it made it painful.

But more than anything else:

19 hours ago, KitMellow said:

This doesn't mean it's fine to disregard the opininon and experience of every other loyal player because you personally didn't see all the issues with the changes.

20 hours ago, Kherae said:

Go back and re-read the 41 pages again. there's plenty of reasons for many of us to be upset. Especially with a lack of DE response on their own feedback thread.

I wholeheartedly concur. Actually do some reading of the earlier pages, or try playing a melee-focused Warframe for a while. We are not having fun, and we aren't gonna grit out teeth and pretend that this is enjoyable for us in any fashion. Don't even dare to claim you know what we should do.

Finally, there's still the core issue at the root of all of this:

20 hours ago, Kherae said:

My problems are summarized as a loss of overall control, flow, and flexibility...and by extension, enjoyment.

Ultimately, "2.9" has streamlined nothing, while increasing the frustration of virtually every aspect of combat that used to be genuinely satisfying. Is it so unreasonable of us to demand simple answers about genuine problems that continue to go unaddressed?

There's only so many ways that one person can express that this isn't fun. I am frankly angry, frustrated, and quite tired of reiterating that basic statement; over and over, time and time again.

 

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne
More formal.
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Oh my gerd! HELP! DE made a new mod that makes blocking relevant but you can't actually use block! [Amalgam javalok magazine warp] parrying with shield reflects +6000% damage. I NEED THAT BLOCK!!!

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I don't normally post in forms, so I'll keep this short.
The new Melee is fine, however I do agree with people saying they need to change up the combo set up, or if possible, maybe an option to switch between the new and last melee style, or something that would feel close to how the last melee style worked. I guess sort of like with Archwing, I don't really know any better in-game example.

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On 2019-05-23 at 3:47 AM, DreadWarlock said:

Please DE, do not cave in, your changes are almost perfect, this is merely phase 1.

What most people here are complaining is meaningless, the new melee system is much, much better than the last one.

You could have made a comment stating what you liked about these changes without attacking other peoples opinions like most other people in this thread, but you instead started by calling DE to disregard most of the people who have problems with this new system, myself included. Did you make this comment specifically to antagonise people or something?

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3 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

You could have made a comment stating what you liked about these changes without attacking other peoples opinions like most other people in this thread, but you instead started by calling DE to disregard most of the people who have problems with this new system, myself included. Did you make this comment specifically to antagonise people or something?

It looked more like the entire post was sarcasm to me.

And what better time to be reminded of how utterly obnoxious this current nerfed melee system is than with a new release. A whole bunch of new enemies, each of which needs to be scanned to fill up the codex... except that swinging your sword puts the scanner away and you need to explicitly pull it out again. It's extremely annoying even when I've had the scanner mapped to the V key for years now for ease of access. I can't imagine how frustrating this would be if you needed to use the gear wheel for it.

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You know, DE...  I used to have so much respect for you.  Across the 5-ish years I have played this game, between things you have done that I have or have not liked, I have stuck by because of your willingness to listen to your community.

But this....  this is just awful.  When the melee changes came out, I tried it.  There were some mechanics I was able to adapt to, but overall what you have done is destroyed melee gameplay.  And I speak as someone who mained Melee.  Check my profile if you doubt. 

Gunplay is not what attracted me to Warframe.  I dislike shooters unless I can find ways to compensate for my lousy firing skills.  I got through Mass Effect because of the powers mechanics.  While Warframe powers offer some alternative, it was the Melee that reached out to me.

I have since stopped playing Warframe.  I barely made it through the Wolf of Saturn Six, and the only reason I stayed was to get through all the reward levels.  Once I hit 30, I stopped playing.  And the only reason I keep visiting the boards here, is to see if there has been any response from you - the developers - on this issue that many people are voicing concerns over.

But nothing.  No addressing it in the forums.  No mention of it at all in any Devstreams or Prime Times I have seen in the first month since this release, so I gave up watching.

Why have you changed your business strategy?  Why do you dismiss the players who mained Melee for so many years, in favor of those who probably still don't use it over favored gunplay?  What have we done that has caused you to blatantly ignore us and our concerns?

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I completely agree that melee at this moment is not at a good spot and has  many issues, already listed,

Reading through this thread i came to a simple conclusion,:

It would be interesting if they actually implemented a PTS server like TheDivision2 has done. so we can actually test ,  give proper solid feedback before some specific changes go live; ( warfame reworks,melee etc) - so not necessarily any new content.

They could reset it every week and limit mission types to simulacrum and 1 mission type of each / sortie. (of course no rewards whatsoever for the real server and no trading, 

Let me be clear that this would be amazing and since no rewards or trades would be there, the only players doing that would be the ones that actually want to give extensive feedback

I really hope this is viable and at least brought to discussion by DE

Also PTS server feedback would be limited to PTS users

Regarding the actual melee system:

  • While i love the idea of melee and pistol , i still miss the old system since it was solid but i don´t think reverting to that is an option

Thank you all who took the time to read.

especially my old PS4 friends,  you are not forgotten.....  its just that : PC is sooo much better. and no we are not beta testers for you guys. 😃

have a great day!

 

 

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@[DE]Steve@[DE]Grineeer@[DE]Rebecca

Hey guys - any thoughts on this thread? We'd love to have a discussion about it.. We love you and we know you're busy but this seems like a big deal. It's a ninja game, melee means a lot to us.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

You could have made a comment stating what you liked about these changes without attacking other peoples opinions like most other people in this thread, but you instead started by calling DE to disregard most of the people who have problems with this new system, myself included. Did you make this comment specifically to antagonise people or something?

I could have respected your comment if most of the cited problems pretty much didn't exist, you guys are playing Warframe, and the vast majority are complaining about non-issues, the problem with this is that DE does listen, so yes you can be damn sure that I'll need to attack certain points the people's argument here, to show the other side of things. The devs already nerfed things that didn't really need changes, just like this new melee version could be.

If I can contribute to stopping that, then regardless of how futile it might be, I will at least try and show that not everyone agrees to the points presented here.

This here is a case of you guys not adapting to the changes. As someone who plays a freaking lot of melee, as someone who uses even Daggers and one-handed Swords at higher levels, where the majority of players only use polearms and whips because they have more range. And I still manage to kill more or compete at the same level with weapons with smaller range. I can only see these changes as a massive buff to the melee system overrall. Seriously, the animations are a hell lot more fluid, having the freedom to switch weapons in less than a second, allows me to go in and out of melee with little problems. Being able to aim and cancel some animation lockdowns to make use of my forced impact procs which would normally send people out of my melee range, and just kill the guy with a headshot. There's really not a single "problem" with the new melee system. Rather than a problem it's just unfinished, I feel like there's more to be done.

Like I said in my comment, every single one of the problems you cited,(aside from the bugs which is clearly not a case of the new system being bad, but because bugs will always exist and need to be fied) they are not problems with the system. The commands and they way to use them changed, but you didn't change how you use your melee, and that's the real problem here.

But sure I could've used someone's whose argument is clearly ridiculous instead of someone trying to be respectul like you, and for this I apologize. I mean just look at this guy:

 

7 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

It looked more like the entire post was sarcasm to me.

And what better time to be reminded of how utterly obnoxious this current nerfed melee system is than with a new release. A whole bunch of new enemies, each of which needs to be scanned to fill up the codex... except that swinging your sword puts the scanner away and you need to explicitly pull it out again. It's extremely annoying even when I've had the scanner mapped to the V key for years now for ease of access. I can't imagine how frustrating this would be if you needed to use the gear wheel for it.

Sure, Nerfed melee system. The new melee alows us to buff melee at any given time with more status procs by the use of Condition Overload, but now the melee system is nerfed. sure...

You know that sentinels exist right? Moreover, one of them does all the scans in your stead.

You could simply run a stealth frame if you really wanted to do your scans uninterrupted, or bring a Helios, and if you really cared for doing scans while in melee, you could simply bring a Heliocor and let this beautiful hammer scan your enemies while turning your enemies into a fine paste in the process, but no you have to nitpick at a non-issue just because you want to be against the new melee system.

I am by no means a DE white knight, if there are some problems with some of the new systems or additions to the game, I will complain, more importanly I will give suggestions on what I think was badly implemented. Which is why I agreed with the other players here on the finisher changes. IF they get too cinematic it would break the flow of combat which could either leave you vulnerable or it would simply take unnecessary time. THis can be an issue, but the inability some people are having with guard combos, is a non issue. This is lack of coordination on player side and not a real problem with the removal of block.

Aim Glide block was lost?  Well that's not really a problem because Aim glide itself already makes enemy miss their shots, so blocking or not you are not getting hit for a couple of seconds anyway, the only thing that was lost is that aim glide block looked cool, period. Change in the channeling system, well I didn't see anyone complaining about this here, but I'll still give my comments on it. Having less buttons to keep pressed while you attack will lower the difficulty in properly executing combos like delay combos ehie channeling(which was not really an issue, but the toggle still feels more confortable to use)

 

Edited by DreadWarlock

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hello i play warframe on the ps4 and i love the game however i have some issues with the melee revisit. 1 the auto blocking makes fights more difficult then usual for example when using hirudo and weapons with life strike mods while trying to attack enemies to quickly regain health i would be stopped by my character abruptly blocking while being hit by the enemy im trying to beat up to get health and would die, with weapons with lifestrike the auto blocking would eat up a lot of energy and it ran out a few times as it tried to get close enough to attack. 2 the switching to guns when hitting L2, when using valkyr i have been killed in mid air because the only way to glide is with the L2 button however that switches to the gun even when using hysteria which takes her out of her immortality status, also when you do not have a secondary weapon equipped and you pick something up like the object in mobile defense if you aim glide you drop it (this is very minor but when you dont notice youve dropped it until you get to the objective multiple times it gets annoying). 3 setting melee channeling to R3, this is mainly an issue for archwings because R3 is my descent button so i cant channel at all. i have life strike on titanias diwata which really helped with her survivability but it is now useless 

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apparently this thread is being hidden and removed from sticky. oh well...

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8 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Sure, Nerfed melee system. The new melee alows us to buff melee at any given time with more status procs by the use of Condition Overload, but now the melee system is nerfed. sure...

Nothing stopped me from inflicting status procs before. Evidently you've never seen the need to move around while fighting, otherwise you'd immediately see what the nerfs are.

8 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

You know that sentinels exist right? Moreover, one of them does all the scans in your stead.

Yes, but it doesn't have the status proc cancelling ability. It's also not as tanky as Wyrm Prime.

8 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

You could simply run a stealth frame if you really wanted to do your scans uninterrupted, or bring a Helios, and if you really cared for doing scans while in melee, you could simply bring a Heliocor and let this beautiful hammer scan your enemies while turning your enemies into a fine paste in the process, but no you have to nitpick at a non-issue just because you want to be against the new melee system.

Except that the Heliocor is complete crap as an actual weapon when compared to the Lesion or Tonbo. Especially when we're forced to use stance melee. Stealth frames are also not very effective at defence-type missions, nor would they do particularly well against the new boss. It also does not solve the problem of having to remove the enemies once scanned.

Also note that NONE of this was a problem with the old melee system. It is now. More problems = worse than less problems. That should be obvious.

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Posted (edited)

It really needs to be stressed that a lot of the changes lack important changes required for them to work, ie the zoom switch *cannot* truly work without a revision of combo inputs. Similarly, we still haven't gotten even acknowledgement much less recompense for the elimination of sprinting during melee which is about as drastic a nerf as guns being only useable standing still and aiming.

Conversely, obvious problems from 2.0 like Maiming Strike haven't been addressed at all, and have actually only been made worse.

Edited by vaarnaaarne
improved form
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

I could have respected your comment if most of the cited problems pretty much didn't exist, you guys are playing Warframe, and the vast majority are complaining about non-issues, the problem with this is that DE does listen, so yes you can be damn sure that I'll need to attack certain points the people's argument here, to show the other side of things. The devs already nerfed things that didn't really need changes, just like this new melee version could be.

Where are your standards though? Knowing how to iterate and taking in the majority feedback of your audience is how you improve your game. You can't be ignorant... if everything was a "non-issue" then what's the purpose of melee 3.0? Most people are asking for options and simple fixes that could be easily implemented without shedding the features we gained, that's all. And DE has yet to show that they have listened to feedback here (correct me if I am wrong), whether that is on the devstreams, or anywhere in the forums. I don't think what we are asking is unreasonable, or that any compromise of any kind can't be made.

13 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Like I said in my comment, every single one of the problems you cited,(aside from the bugs which is clearly not a case of the new system being bad, but because bugs will always exist and need to be fied) they are not problems with the system. The commands and they way to use them changed, but you didn't change how you use your melee, and that's the real problem here.

Are you saying the complete removal of quick melee didn't change how anything about how we used melee? How the vague and clunky forced channeling toggle doesn't make us apprehensive about using it for short bursts, breaking up the flow of combat, because it uses up so much energy expecially if it autoblocks in between? This is an accessibility issue to begin with, made worse by the current channeling system in the game.

13 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

the inability some people are having with guard combos, is a non issue. This is lack of coordination on player side and not a real problem with the removal of block.

Aim Glide block was lost?  Well that's not really a problem because Aim glide itself already makes enemy miss their shots, so blocking or not you are not getting hit for a couple of seconds anyway, the only thing that was lost is that aim glide block looked cool, period. Change in the channeling system, well I didn't see anyone complaining about this here, but I'll still give my comments on it. Having less buttons to keep pressed while you attack will lower the difficulty in properly executing combos like delay combos ehie channeling(which was not really an issue, but the toggle still feels more confortable to use)

I have a reason to doubt that you have read all the posts in 41 pages of this thread, especially the constructive ones. You should have understood at least to some degree why they are real problems if you did.

Rather than being completely dismissive to feedback suggesting inconvienient workarounds that shouldn't even be required, please acknowledge that you aren't the only person playing this game. Try to have the maturity to understand that people have complaints to geniune problems and they are passionate about them at least being addressed, otherwise we wouldn't be spending our time posting here. Being selfish is not how you make a better experience for everyone.

Edited by KitMellow
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The melee changes made me take a break from this game. I came back to try and retrain myself with the new system, but really to no avail. The new system still somehow feels more clunky. The lack of dedicated block for gliding, the lack of a click to channel (the only button forces a toggle), the inability to draw your melee weapon without swinging it ruining momentum and making air swaps incredibly awkward... I'm sure for something of this scale it wouldn't be feasible to be able to select old melee options as something in the menu, but gosh would I appreciate it right now. Some of my loadouts are built around melee; this makes them objectively worse.

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Well, after leaving the game for almost 2 years pause, and i was here since alpha, I leave the game because it was getting bored with nothing more to do after I got almost everything there was to get. One of the thing i loved the most was the melee 2.0.....now it's broken as hell... not even fun to use. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Popping in to also add that I don't like the melee changes. The visual upgrades are nice, but that's pretty much it. Having the ability to manually block removed is/was a horrible idea, especially since there are mods that only really worked with manual blocking (Guardian Derision, being one of them).

Plus, as others have said, the removal of quick melee makes things more frustrating/annoying than they should be, especially in regards to gear items. You can no longer just smash a resource crate/deposit without unequipping any gear item you had out.

Edited by Braken
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On 2019-05-24 at 11:57 PM, DoomFruit said:

It looked more like the entire post was sarcasm to me.

And what better time to be reminded of how utterly obnoxious this current nerfed melee system is than with a new release. A whole bunch of new enemies, each of which needs to be scanned to fill up the codex... except that swinging your sword puts the scanner away and you need to explicitly pull it out again. It's extremely annoying even when I've had the scanner mapped to the V key for years now for ease of access. I can't imagine how frustrating this would be if you needed to use the gear wheel for it.

Yeah, kinda hard to read sarcasm some of the time.

When DE launched this, I was hoping for a tiny roll-back or a toggle (remember the revamped archwing mechanics aka the "experimental" flight model). Now, I'd settle for them removing all melee. It's become that annoying to me that I will throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This melee change doesn't just alter combat or even just scanning. If you're mining / hunting or doing a lot of non-combat things... you hesitate to use a melee attack to open containers or harvest resources.

Been playing since 2013 and this melee update is more annoying to me than coptering, greedy pull or a ton of other things. This MAY improve 'melee combat flow'... but that's like taking one step forward and a dozen backwards. It makes it hard to enjoy many of the really good things DE has done. Unlike many other irritants that I've swallowed or just decided to get used to... this continually crops up like day-old vomit. I consciously avoid melee when I have a both primary / secondary equipped or doing any non-combat duties. AND I've use a macro for the first time in this game... and it's for slide-attack with Maiming Strike. This can't be what DE intended.

This update annoys melee mains, forces dedicated players to jump through additional hoops all for what? A specific style and auto-block? Who the heck asked for this? 

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