Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

18 hours ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Currently, I found less enjoyment with melee these days because there are less buttons to use for attacking now. I WAS excited for 3.0 cause I was under the impression they were going to add a heavy attack button so we can block, light attack and heavy attack. These changes prioritize streamlining over fun (a statement that should NEVER be associated with a gameplay mechanic that attracted people like me to the game).

What they should do is:

-bring back dedicated melee mode,

-make it so you can cycle between primary, secondary and melee without having to hold the switch button,

-increase the holster speed up to the point that the switch is instant

-allow us to manually block again and then improve the blocking system to make it more interesting 

-add a heavy attack button and bind it to the reload button (the button is able to interact and reload but does nothing when in melee mode so that should not be a problem)

-provide a secondary fire button that gives weapons certain gimmicks (such as throwing the wolf sledgehammer, using soul swarm with the tatsu, etc.)

These changes themselves will be just as quick as the current changes while improving on the fun factor for using melee rather than making it feel like a second feature to a shooter game (and believe me, I have had it with shooter games, otherwise I would not be playing this game)

Perfectly and succinctly summed up what I was hoping for better than I did, the light and heavy attack was exactly what I was expecting so they could improve the flow of combos by removing pause combos. +1

More controls that are better defined are preferable to this weird "streamlining".

[Nichivo]

Can we maybe get some way to regain lost control on PC?

I would rather be able to decide when I block. The game does a real poor job of only blocking key high damage attacks, while ignoring low damage attacks I could have chosen to soak. It completely messes up the flow of melee, and feels like it was designed for a console. I had block on mouse2. Mastering when to block was also rewarding. The new system, game tries to play for me and does a real poor job.

I'd also like to be able to channel on mouse1 like before, and it not be a toggle, as I only need it for certain attacks. Mastering split second channeling was rewarding. This new system is not rewarding, it is not effective either. Was it just over simplified for consoles?

I do not need the game to decide what is the best action at the moment. Much as I dislike toggles, can we get one in options to disable the game deciding how I play?

I can no longer aim glide with my melee weapon out, or leap into the air and melee osprey, who thought some of these changes would be fun? 

  

 

 

[Vanrythzx]

please give us the holster back, fûcking hate this change, it's so sh!t i don't even play anymore and certainly wont play in the future anymore. just give players like me the option to switch it back to how it was, like you do with other stuff too, it shouldn't be too difficult, everything else is pretty neat but this change is absolute dogsh!t for me. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Vanrythzx

[Maxim_M_Payne]

8 hours ago, Nichivo said:

I do not need the game to decide what is the best action at the moment

Exactly what I've reiterated time and time again over dozens of pages. Players should have their own control of their own actions, as well as a choice in how they fight the majority of foes; and this should be the rule without exception. Melee 2.9 has so far accomplished only making things more awkward to control; and removed that personal choice from the player's reach.

We're not having fun with this, development team. The whole DE crew works hard, but please just read this thread. 

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

I tried a couple of times to get used to the new system now but it's so unbelievable awkward and unfun for me, what I missed in my first comment was another big problem; channeling.

In melee mode I used to have it bound to E and attack to mouse 1 while switch to melee was bound to C, this flowed so smoothly for me and while I can get these binds very similar the toggle channel adds an extra layer of awkwardness to these changes as it requires a second press to disable, which in a big fight can kill you by ruining the flow.

I saw someone mention this before but why in melee 2.9 were the bits that weren't broken 'fixed', the basic control system was fine, it was combos and fixed animations like the slam which needed the improvement.

Speaking of which, to avoid being too critical, the aim-able slam is a great improvement, it would be right at home in the old melee mode, adding a new layer to movement options. 👍

[LucielaFox]

Just my whole thoughts about it.

[Slayer116]

After playing around a bunch i have went from kinda enjoying it to practically hating it because of particular things that make it annoying. 

Lets start with what was changed

1. Manual block turns to auto block.

2. Manual aim glide to aim glide on auto block?

3. You have to swing your melee to pull your melee out as opposed to holding a button to pull it out.

4. Combos are easier?

5. Channel might have gotten something but i forget.

6. Aiming a gun will take you out of melee.

7. Down slams are now slant slams.

 

These changes were introduced a while ago. I feel kinda like the cons out weigh the pros to go further into detail i will describe below.

We had a auto block mod which was made pretty much useless i also enjoyed the manual for personal taste.

Aim glide had some fun to it on melee appealing like view and guns have it so why wouldn't melee? Also the Exodia Contagion used aim glide to work apparently which makes it unfunctional in its current state and has not been fixed yet? (those arcanes were not exactly easy to obtain if i recall 10 arcanes would equal around 100 cetus wisps?)

I used to hold F to bring a weapon out but now i tap E to bring it out and attack at the same time which does not look as appealing if i just wanted to bring it out... However i did not enjoy holding F and i had synced my mouse 1 button to melee when melee is out which i like quite a lot.

I feel like combos are easier but i can't say by how much or if its 2 much i don't have much to say although i remember hearing about animations forcing the player to stop so they could swing in a stationary position which sounded a bit tedious not sure if this was already fixed or if people just went silent about it.

I don't use channel usually however i do have it synced as a toggle to Z which makes it nice if i ever want to use it.

Aiming guns while in melee takes you out this can be both a blessing and a curse, however i don't see much point in holster mods if there isn't really any need for them?

Down slams are not down slams anymore you fling yourself across the air somehow using the mass of your melee weapon not only did people not really use the old version at times but this one makes it harder to know where you are gonna hit and just simply does not look appealing.

This last problem has to do with switching to guns while a exalted weapon is out what happens is if you activate for example exalted blade on excalibur and switch guns you have your gun like normal but you also have your energy draining even though it isn't exactly active.

 

I tried to enjoy the changes i really did but i can't sorry if any of this is feedback is taken in a negative way i just don't like it. I have a pretty big 5000 hours into the game i love it a lot got excitement for future things know you wanted to freshen melee up but i didn't see many problems with the old system. Keep up the great work! -Slayer116

Edited June 1, 2019 by Slayer116

[SilviaS12]

DE give us a petition to sign. Turn around and find another route, we're going the wrong way.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

you wanted change for the sake of change, Honestly you need to fix the new problems that you've created with this awful melee update...and then you can start talking about the second phase, or should i say the first phase of changing melee because what you did so far is nothing more than garbage!

i don't want to be in air and have my momentum interrupted because of auto block

i don't want to keep activating and deactivating channeling when i do combos or when i switch in and out of weapons

i want to block when i want to 

you degraded slam attacks from being partly good, to being utterly useless, they're disorienting, weapons like arca titron are completely dead because it's own perk (the 1000% slam damage) doesn't work properly anymore 

so many mods and weapon abilities that are now obsolete all because auto block

 

and so many more issues 

i'm finding it really hard to play warframe right now, but looks like you're helping me quit the game for a while...

 

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

Has anyone tried to message rebecca or danielle to ask about if the feedback is being used for the rest of the phases or why the thread is no longer pinned. Usually my experience with DE showed that they usually take feedback seriously but they haven't even addressed it in the recent streams. I joined the game because I liked the melee combat. Now though I feel that they are letting the gun mode invade melee mode rather than add on to melee. 

If they wanted to streamline the weapon swap they could have easily done it by removing the hold button to switch to melee (something that always seemed odd) and just make it swap between all 3 weapons by tapping and then removing holster speed and making it instant.

[vaarnaaarne]

We really should come up with a straightforward, concise set of bullet points regarding all the things wrong with phase 1, and things that are wrong with melee in general, and what should be done to fix each of them. Something everyone could just quote in agreement while voicing their feedback on how bad phase 1 is and how desperately we need fixes to it.

 

At the very least, we could keep the message cohesive and keep the thread from ever vanishing.

Edited June 4, 2019 by vaarnaaarne

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

On 2019-06-04 at 2:49 PM, vaarnaaarne said:

We really should come up with a straightforward, concise set of bullet points regarding all the things wrong with phase 1, and things that are wrong with melee in general, and what should be done to fix each of them. Something everyone could just quote in agreement while voicing their feedback on how bad phase 1 is and how desperately we need fixes to it.

 

At the very least, we could keep the message cohesive and keep the thread from ever vanishing.

Perhaps the reason why they un pinned the thread is that people were not giving feedback the way they wanted it. Maybe if a new thread is created where you have to post feedback with examples and reasoning for why this is the wrong way to charge melee. 

It feels as though they focused on streamlining the system so much that they forget that by letting the gun controls invade melee mode, they have severally limited all the creative possibilities to add to melee.

Things like an aim glide that doesn't zoom in so you can see where you are going, or a heavy attack button so it's not just mashing one button or a secondary attack like being able to throw a hammer and call it back like in the god of war ps4 game. 

So much potential lost by sacrificing buttons for melee in exchange for streamlining when the results could have been done as well by removing holster speed and making it that you don't have to hold the switch button to enter melee mode. 

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Perhaps the reason why they un pinned the thread is that people were not giving feedback the way they wanted it. Maybe if a new thread is created where you have to post feedback with examples and reasoning for why this is the wrong way to charge melee.

That's almost certainly correct, but I imagine not in the way you pictured it. The feedback they wanted was a massive round of back-slapping and cries of "this is great, change nothing". The feedback they got pointed out critical flaws in the new system which are inherent (read: cannot be simply patched out) and highlighted massive oversights in their development and testing (if they even do that) processes. Some of these problems, incidentally, were pointed out months ago at the initial preview before melee 2.whatever even launched. Their approach so far has been to bury their head in the sand and ignore everything.

This complete absence of planning for or consideration about the consequences of game mechanic changes is also manifested in the sudden end of Nightwave and the resulting complete absence of nitain despite the multitude of both new and old items which need it as crafting material (for reference, I much prefer the nightwave token method of acquiring alertium to the old style as you can actually work towards it; the problem comes when this system is completely absent from the game). Here's one thread as an example, many more exist.

 

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

Yesterday, I saw game-play reveal of star wars jedi fallen order. The thoughtful combat actually looks cool and I think would be good inspiration for melee 3.0 rather than DMC 5

 

[Amoral_Support]

I love the focus on movement, fluidity and blending play styles. Being able to combo through a crowd of enemies and seemlessly switch to my guns to shoot at distant enemies feels great and less restrictive.

I feel like channeling is such an open design space for introducing new build variations. Having channeling mods that can do double duty when 'on' or 'off' would be really cool. For example an amalgam mod combining Organ Shatter with True Punishment (call it Amalgam Organ Punishment lol). If you wanted to get really weird you could have a channeling mod that reduces your damage output when off and and gives you a beefy Damage Resistance boost when on. A mod that stores charges when blocking and then releases a radial explosion when channeled! 

[vaarnaaarne]

On 2019-06-09 at 8:35 PM, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Yesterday, I saw game-play reveal of star wars jedi fallen order. The thoughtful combat actually looks cool and I think would be good inspiration for melee 3.0 rather than DMC 5

 

Far too slow, completely antithetical to the *necessities* for melee in the meta of Warframe. You'd have to change EVERYTHING about the game for that kind of system to fit in instead of simply rendering melee unviable. It's the same reason why DMC is not what you should look at as the goal for Melee 3.0: It's 100% at odds with what you NEED in Warframe's game meta. Melee *cannot* focus on a single target (if you do, your DPS is a failure because you have to kill within first few hits if not the first), EVER, in Warframe, and it cannot be moving away EVER. You must hit as many enemies every swing as possible, and kill as many of them as fast as possible, and you must *never* not be swinging as fast as possible. These are the *necessities* that must guide Melee 3.0: It must be fast, it must be wide, it must have controls adjusted for the speed it must reach, and it must move like a maglev battering ram on crack. Because melee will *always* have to stack up against how guns do DPS in Warframe, no exceptions.

Unless the way guns, enemies, and the entire Mod system is changed vastly, a change in combat like this simply renders melee useless.

 

EDIT: That's really what we need to keep our focus on: What sort of things does melee need within the context of Warframe's gameplay, not how melee is in some other game that has a fundamentally different gameplay from Warframe.

Edited June 10, 2019 by vaarnaaarne

[Ham_Grenabe]

Absolutely. The Star Wars combat works there (although the enemies are so slow to act in that teaser it looks practically turn-based) but Warframe is...or has become, at least...about moving relentlessly forward at all times, and not spending time on individual targets. 

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

3 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Far too slow, completely antithetical to the *necessities* for melee in the meta of Warframe. You'd have to change EVERYTHING about the game for that kind of system to fit in instead of simply rendering melee unviable. It's the same reason why DMC is not what you should look at as the goal for Melee 3.0: It's 100% at odds with what you NEED in Warframe's game meta. Melee *cannot* focus on a single target (if you do, your DPS is a failure because you have to kill within first few hits if not the first), EVER, in Warframe, and it cannot be moving away EVER. You must hit as many enemies every swing as possible, and kill as many of them as fast as possible, and you must *never* not be swinging as fast as possible. These are the *necessities* that must guide Melee 3.0: It must be fast, it must be wide, it must have controls adjusted for the speed it must reach, and it must move like a maglev battering ram on crack. Because melee will *always* have to stack up against how guns do DPS in Warframe, no exceptions.

Unless the way guns, enemies, and the entire Mod system is changed vastly, a change in combat like this simply renders melee useless.

 

EDIT: That's really what we need to keep our focus on: What sort of things does melee need within the context of Warframe's gameplay, not how melee is in some other game that has a fundamentally different gameplay from Warframe.

Yeah you do have a point. I just want them to focus less on trying to streamline the system and try to be creative to freshen up the melee system. My main reason for being so excited for 3.0 was that I thought they were going to add a heavy attack button and improve stances to be more mobile and less clunky. Also a lock on target would not hurt to make it easier to not just swing around and miss your target.

I would also like if they could hire someone to significantly improve the enemy AI so difficulty is just new enemy types and enemies just being more strategic rather then a bunch of one-shot enemies with high armor and health (I would even be accepting of a damage nerf on our behalf if it meant that the AI was smarter and less bullet sponge like with insane damage output). 

I get the whole hit fast and move on strat, but that tends to get stall after a lot of that and results in having enemies hitting harder and tanking more damage. They should freshen up melee and make it more detailed rather than taking out the depth (although melee did not have that much depth to begin with). If it takes longer to kill enemies in exchange for having a good time, then so be it. Games are fun first, meta second.

[vaarnaaarne]

I agree that ideally we'd have two melee attack buttons, and at least two stance combo loops for each of them (well, assuming we get functioning RMB combo input back because it was the one that works the best for Warframe's speed) that you can fluidly switch between. This would at least make you able to adapt your attack rush on the fly to every situation. And a keyword here is combo LOOP, it needs to be basically non-stop and smooth so every step can be a switch to a different loop. A good example, since they're set of weapons and stances that are completely at odds with what you NEED in Warframe, is if Fists or Sparring had several forward moving, wide area attacks that can take care of regular enemies, and then a RMB+heavy attack that locks you down in place for ORAORAORAORAORA or Kenshiro Kick but will guarantee that the lv 100 Bombard and everything around it is going to be dead meat in a blink (also pro-tip for best Fists and Sparring deluxe skin for DE: "Invisible" Fist or Sparring weapons).

That's basically where the current problems of melee can be condensed at: You essentially have to stick to a single cookie cutter combo (well if you aren't using spin2win meme strike, but IMO meme strike should just be nuked from existence because it's always been THE cancer on melee), and you have to have the minimum amount of range and mobility. Currently the mobility problem is made worse by the lock on movement on almost every melee combo. But having two attack buttons and a combo input (and combo) design made to be responsive to the amount of speed you have to build up for your DPS is what makes the hopefully re-mobile and up-ranged (since the biggest issue for most melee weapons is that their range is just non-viable) melee something you can actively engage in as you adapt your combo characteristics to whatever you are doing that second.

 

And you can't ignore the meta, because you have to adhere to the meta in order to have fun. It's just an unfortunate fact that has to be acknowledged. Being underpowered and ill-fitting is not fun.

Oh yes, and more giblets. More melee weapons need to bisect stuff and hammers and sharp sticks need giblets of their own style, because more ultraviolence is always better.

[DeadVoid118]

The current melee system seems like a step forward and a step back. Melee is jarring to movement. I believe the melee system should be disconnected somewhat from movement. Let interesting combos take place without overriding your keyboard and preventing you from walking where you want to, just like how you run around with a gun. Sure, some things are okay to have affect movement, like the ground slam and certain combos. However, the base combo shouldn't do this. If I just want to hit something in front of me, I shouldn't have to pause and let the animation take my feet over.

I do like the instant transition from gun to melee and back. However, I would like to know which gun I have equipped when I'm using my melee so I'm not trying to go from melee to sniper and find myself using a shotgun.

[SilviaS12]

On 2019-05-28 at 1:38 PM, Vanrythzx said:

please give us the holster back, fûcking hate this change, it's so sh!t i don't even play anymore and certainly wont play in the future anymore. just give players like me the option to switch it back to how it was, like you do with other stuff too, it shouldn't be too difficult, everything else is pretty neat but this change is absolute dogsh!t for me. 

I feel the very same! Ever since the night of the red text in game and a forced relog to facilitate a new update. I haven't played since. Logged in a few times to try my best but the new setup is just an epic fail. I can adapt to it no problem but it is not as efficient or cool as previous setup. Unbearable at best. I've said it many times that many more melee players will continue to emerge when they notice the changes and it's not going to stop. Warframe will die or get severely hurt if this new melee isn't fixed with some of the original functions.

[vaarnaaarne]

12 hours ago, Keylan118 said:

The current melee system seems like a step forward and a step back. Melee is jarring to movement. I believe the melee system should be disconnected somewhat from movement. Let interesting combos take place without overriding your keyboard and preventing you from walking where you want to, just like how you run around with a gun. Sure, some things are okay to have affect movement, like the ground slam and certain combos. However, the base combo shouldn't do this. If I just want to hit something in front of me, I shouldn't have to pause and let the animation take my feet over.

It USED to be like this, until last Autumn when it was stealth-changed without any explanation. I keep bringing this up because it's possibly the single worst thing done to melee, it's the step backwards BEFORE the other step backwards that was phase 1 which completely ruined RMB combo inputs.

[Kefirno]

Autoswitch to melee instead of quick melee is absolute trash. See:

Quick melee was essential element of combat allowing to quickly deal with small annoyances without pressing a dedicated "equip this thing" button before performing every action.

At least add "use quick melee button to equip melee" checkbox to options.

[vaarnaaarne]

Yea auto-switch only seems alright until you realize the only thing it changes from the way changing weapons used to work like is that there's no draw animations between melee and everything else so it's just instant switch. If you had old system with instant switch, it would change literally nothing and would retain all of the "utility" of quickswitch without causing crippling problems for melee.

[Akura-archangel]

Today I tried to play with only melee weapon - Furax. Well..........it's unplayable. Painful. I try to make some combos with pushing block buttons, but my Saryn try to block every f...n bullet! I can't do more then 2-3 strikes. And Furax is speed enough weapon. And what about some hammers? Or big swords? This weapon maded not for beautiful to hang in the back. This for battle! I want to CAN just changing my weapon to some Jat Kittag and comfortable beat my enemies by their faces, with pleasure. Now I always feel uncomfortable when mission end. I feel that I lost something. I feel that something was stealed from me. DE, you had good beautiful and variable melee system. Now it's not. I see very little people who use melee now. Your experiment just cutted that element from the game.