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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

If you want to survive high level melee without cheesing it with maiming strike builds lifestrike and therefore channelling is a requisite, otherwise you will end up dying since you can't rely on cover or positioning as much as a ranged weapon user can. Removing this would make melee nearly useless in high level content outside of EB and hysteria, although even EB benefits from lifestrike greatly.

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Edited by Gurpgork

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53 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Oberon is not anywhere near immortal, even with Phoenix Renewal. Iron Renewal helps, but his low base armor and requirement for high power to get the most out of his abilities can make it restrictive for some folk to have durability mods in the first place. I would absolutely agree, that both Rhino and Oberon are in better places personally, having had small boosts to their stats or abilities, but enemies also got boosts at those same times. Arcanes have existed since before Nidus existed, but I would agree that Eidolons are a far better way to get them that the more exclusive and puzzle oriented Trials. Life strike is equivalent to Adaptation in that it is a conditional mod, but yeah, you can make without it if you have some other manner of reliable life restore - like say a quick twitchy finger ready to use Magus Elevate or Repair geared Tenno for example - healing abilities like Oberon; or Vazarin focus.

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1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Three years ago, I probably would have agreed with you on this. But today, there are so many ways, new and old, to be functionally immortal in this game. Rhino and Oberon are ten times the tanks they used to be, Umbral mods and Adaptation exist now, Nidus is a thing, and healing Arcanes are more abundant and easier to get than they've ever been. Not to mention that the old invisibility juggernauts are just as good as they've always been. There's even the new Diakyu mod that gives Nikanas lifesteal. 

Life Strike is indisputably effective, but it's definitely not mandatory anymore. 

Nidus is certainly nigh unkillable in you play him right but rhino and oberon can struggle to keep up with burst damage, though you are right they are both way better than they used to be, especially rhino who struggled to keep up after they removed his invincibility(a change I was worried about at the time but ended up really liking). That said damage mitigation mods only go so far and in the long run you need to have that consistent heal, which is simply easiest to obtain in melee from lifestrike. The arcanes however are pretty damn good at making up for this, but grace for example is a tough one to obtain for the average player without a good group of friends or decent PUG. 

I agree there are decent alternatives, but for me, in melee I feel like nothing has yet to replace lifestrike, that is of course unless we are stuck with toggle channel forever, in which case it's a giant pain in my behind to use :sad:

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On 2019-06-17 at 11:09 PM, dirtysmile said:

I'm quite happy with the regular melee, but channeling still feels like a waste of time and mod space. I don't think anyone is realistically using it that much so I would suggest it be removed.

I don't see why people wouldn't channel even without lifestrike. It's actually a decent damage boost for little cost. Now channel BLOCKING on the other hand is bollocks which is yet another strike against auto block.

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Not related to melee mechanics but can you please make it so that melee Exalted Weapons stance gives mod capacity the same way normal melee weapon does! It really kills any build variety not having them.

Thanks.

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So, here I am back again after however long it was since I last clued in on this thread.

Status Update: Melee still feels horrid and awkward. After all this time I still don't like it in the slightest. If you're going to do things like this in parts, then don't durdle around doing other things in the meantime 'until you get around to it'. Don't do Railjack if it doesn't include finishing this mess you started and left here. Give us a legacy option. Let us choose. Something.

Or at least reply to the damn thread you started so people could give feedback, acknowledge people's discontent in SOME WAY WHATSOEVER. Don't let this be like Focus where it's someone's oh-so-previous brainbaby and they refuse to hear any words against it, because we all know where that's gotten us. Spoilers in case you're not following along at home, Operators are still ass.

This isn't a thing that's going to go away if you ignore it long enough, stop pretending it is. Operators were one thing, but it's a lot easier to ignore that than it is melee being changed out from under you. People are going to keep on complaining. At least SAY SOMETHING back to us.

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Posted (edited)

1) It might be my imagination but I feel like auto-parrying is causing weird behavior. I'm not even sure if it's auto-parrying... In some situations though, I press "e" to perform a simple melee attack and my Warframe starts performing a charge attack instead, even though I'm not holding down the e-button. It's like the game sometimes doesn't recognize that I'm not holding e down at all. Could it also be that auto-parrying prevents us from performing melee-combos? I would really love to see further investigations there or experiments with auto-block on/off as it really feels a bit wonky.
But again, I can't tell for sure whether auto-block is causing these issues or not.

2) Many melee weapons/stances still do not allow walking/moving while combo'ing. Is this feature coming in melee 3.0 for every weapons or will this remain as is because the full-body movement/animation?

3) Let's say you're using a scanner. Now once you switch to melee and try to go back to scanner by pressing RMB, you end up switching to primary/secondary instead of the scanner.
It's been quite annoying so far so improvements there will be highly appreciated.

€dit: 4) Aim Gliding + having a Sniper equipped forces us to scope in while gliding which is...annoying.

Edited by DynHamid
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1 hour ago, DynHamid said:

1) It might be my imagination but I feel like auto-parrying is causing weird behavior. I'm not even sure if it's auto-parrying... In some situations though, I press "e" to perform a simple melee attack and my Warframe starts performing a charge attack instead, even though I'm not holding down the e-button. It's like the game sometimes doesn't recognize that I'm not holding e down at all. Could it also be that auto-parrying prevents us from performing melee-combos? I would really love to see further investigations there or experiments with auto-block on/off as it really feels a bit wonky.
But again, I can't tell for sure whether auto-block is causing these issues or not.

Charge attacks in general were broken with the new system. Previously, if I had to do a melee only sortie, I'd have either equipped a scanner (so that I could still use the superior quick melee moveset) or taken my Redeemer along (if defending a fixed point against ranged enemies, such as mobile defence). Now, it seems like half the time the redeemer refuses to fire when I hold down the melee button. I just swing once and that's it.

The solution, as with seemingly a lot of DE's "additions", is to find some way to ensure that I never encounter it - in this case, Mesa (though this doesn't work if I'm faced with nullicancer).

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Melee 3.0, according to the Wukong Primal Fury update, is putting a greater emphasis on right-click, or just 'aim' in general.

This isn't a bad thing in and of itself. I still like the new system overall, just with one major exception - Auto-block, and in the process, the lack of Manual block on that key. If manual block isn't restored, then Melee 3.0 will have a system wherin one of the major inputs into the whole system is shared with the option to put away your melee weapon. Of which there are three others (reload, switch weapons and firing).

It's also added a slight bit more emphasis on aerial combat with actual air combos, despite the fact you cannot aim glide with melee anymore, meaning you cannot use one of the most important aerial mobility features, specifically the one that lets you stay in the air long enough to actually use an air combo.

 

At this point, it's evident that Manual Block needs to make a comeback, not for the benefits of the block itself (which there were few, all of which are admittedly handled by Autoblock) but for the added control options.

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Posted (edited)

Yea, the Iron Staff combos are to a better direction (main issue with them is just clunky momentum and lack of melee sprint and how a combo matches the input, the inputs themselves are basically the way to go for Warframe) in terms of input, EXCEPT autoparry and RMB switch are still active disruptions to this. RMB should *not* switch to a gun, left-click and reload are more than enough for that if you want to keep instant switch. Manual block is vital for getting the combo inputs to work with melee weapons that aren't protected from switch, and even then it's extremely important for getting combo inputs to work RIGHT, since in the current system it sometimes stops registering your RMB hold anyway.

So yea, put manual block back in, autoparry and RMB switch out. It's necessary in order to get the (improved or not) combo inputs to work properly.

Edited by vaarnaaarne
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Does anyone else think it's comically sad that the most DE had said about the first stage of the melee rework, released months ago, is with the release of wukong? Months and instead of at the very least communicating that they hear the exact issues we have been bringing up, they chose to flat out avoid talking about it in any capacity. Then the very first thing we hear after all these months is "wukong 4 will use upcoming melee rework mechanics". No talk about the dozens of issues, just a little FYI at best. 

That's all they had to say... come on DE... You are better than this, get back to behaving like it.

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3 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

Does anyone else think it's comically sad that the most DE had said about the first stage of the melee rework, released months ago, is with the release of wukong? Months and instead of at the very least communicating that they hear the exact issues we have been bringing up, they chose to flat out avoid talking about it in any capacity. Then the very first thing we hear after all these months is "wukong 4 will use upcoming melee rework mechanics". No talk about the dozens of issues, just a little FYI at best. 

That's all they had to say... come on DE... You are better than this, get back to behaving like it.

That's because the current melee system is an abominable dumpster fire and there is no way in which it can be realistically addressed other than just rolling back the entire thing and then re-implementing instant weapon switch and possibly directed slam attacks (the only good parts of this entire system).

They're still hoping that we won't notice that they've broken melee, even though the problems get shoved right back into our faces every single mission.

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hello...here i am again sending more feedback on the upcoming melee 3.o 

so here's more suggestions from me: 

-in case you have no plans of removing autoblock (even though i hate it) can you remove melee velocity cancel on auto block? it really destroys the momentum and since we can switch fast to our primary to glide there's no need for melee glide now...you can't access it on command and it just stops you mid air waiting for you to get killed

-add a parry button and parry animation...similar to mortal kombat for example...since again you seem to have no plans to remove autoblock(it's horrible btw) can you remove channeling completely and add a pure parry move instead? and replace all channeling mods with parry mods...like for example, life strike:

on parry gain 20% life steal for x seconds 

or arcanes like exodia brave: on parry kill: get 5 energy per seconds for x seconds

-slam attacks are broken please fix, like i said again and again slam attacks now are so unusable and broken, where's the new slam attack style before this melee update? what happened to it? 

-instead of autoblock can you add a crouch block and step backwards block? similar to mortal kombat...give us a way for us to block on command, just make sure to add a way to step backwards while melee 

-get inspired by other fighting games...this is an advice...watch other melee fighting games and see what makes them unique and how can we implement some of their mechanics in warframe...i've already gave you some ideas borrowing from mortal kombat fighting style 

thanks...please be careful...melee is my favorite part of this game after warframes...

DON'T. MESS.THIS.UP

-

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4 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

That's because the current melee system is an abominable dumpster fire and there is no way in which it can be realistically addressed other than just rolling back the entire thing and then re-implementing instant weapon switch and possibly directed slam attacks (the only good parts of this entire system).

They're still hoping that we won't notice that they've broken melee, even though the problems get shoved right back into our faces every single mission.

autoblock

the removal of quick melee

how broken slam attacks are now

channeling is still irrelevant 

the death of so many "while blocking" mods

so many issues...it drives me crazy that they spent months not addressing these issues or replying...or even fixing some small issues...and when they show up all they say is "hey btw melee 3.o is coming"

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4 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

That's because the current melee system is an abominable dumpster fire and there is no way in which it can be realistically addressed other than just rolling back the entire thing and then re-implementing instant weapon switch and possibly directed slam attacks (the only good parts of this entire system).

They're still hoping that we won't notice that they've broken melee, even though the problems get shoved right back into our faces every single mission.

I still hold out hope that they are just scrambling to work out the new system while undoing most of the changes in the first wave, you know since they went down as well as watering can trying to put out a forest fire, but a little part of me is starting to think you are right that they are hoping we forget. The unpinning of the feedback thread(which has continued to sit on the first page anyway) was the most worrying sign apart from the deafening silence.

Surely somewhere in there the team that made melee 2.0 such an amazing step up must still exist, 90% of me believes at least.

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Well, at this point I don't care about provide feedback anymore. 

Is like talking to a deaf wall.

There's a lot of brilliant feedback on this thread  and smart solutions by many people who care about the game, yet I feel you are ignoring it DE.

At least it would be a basic respectful thing to show some acknowledge from you part, DE.

And that autoblocking idea... damn. 

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Simply put, please make block and aim two seperate keys. I have been playing this game since about early 2017, so having my weapons switch automatically because of blocking reflexes is a bit annoying. Also, Aim Gliding with melee out can be much more useful to just close gaps, as it lets you observe your surroundings and figure out where your going more efficiently than when your tunnel visioned and zoomed in with a gun.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)hellahym said:

Well, at this point I don't care about provide feedback anymore. 

Is like talking to a deaf wall.

There's a lot of brilliant feedback on this thread  and smart solutions by many people who care about the game, yet I feel you are ignoring it DE.

At least it would be a basic respectful thing to show some acknowledge from you part, DE.

And that autoblocking idea... 

I'm honestly scared they'll ruin melee even more with unwanted changes

 

If melee becomes trash...

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I'm honestly scared they'll ruin melee even more with unwanted changes

 

If melee becomes trash...

Join the club, we have tea and biscuits, the tea will be spilt though as our hands are shaking from nerves due to the fears of DE continuing down this path with melee.

But for real I check back daily to see if any progress or announcement has been made about melee, each time fearing the worst.

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Posted (edited)
hace 21 horas, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk dijo:

I'm honestly scared they'll ruin melee even more with unwanted changes

 

If melee becomes trash...

Melee is one of my concerns. One.

Being myself a console player, I really want to apreciate the efforts from DE, but is hard because most of that work in fact doesn't improve almost anything.

I started playing Warframe almost 2 years ago and I was really enjoying the game, at the point that my PS4 became a Warframe-machine, but even if I don't belong to the "I don't have more stuff to do" club, my enjoyment is far less because of many changes.

When I started, all the interface was intuitive, fast and clean. Every function was easy to see and understand with information on point.

Then the cursor came. Besides the poor implementation, full of bugs, they work on solving issues.

But the core problem was a real reduction of functionallity that still persist: your navigation is still slower than it was.

Even with DE effort, we still have a system inferior to the previous one. 

Then, the UI overhaul. Form over function. Many menues are now less intuitive. 

They look prettier, but when you need to actually take a deep look for some simple things to understand wtf are you looking at and what it does... being a regular player all this time... yup, it doesn't speak well of your design choices.

Is more evident thanks to the fact that when I was a new player, a simple look was enough to navigate through every menu knowing what to do. It was a no brainer.

Yet, ok, interface wise was a lot of work from DE to end with a less funtional UI, no problem, I can deal with it since gameplay wise Warframe still was the same.

Or that's what I would like to say. 

Fishing was a pleasure and scanning was ok. But they worked on the fishing interface too. Now selecting my spear and my bait is a chore. Not to mention if I face a situation where I need to defend myself. 

Any attack you made now pulls you out of "fishing mode", so you need to re equip your spear, re equip your bait, re select the proper spear... and pray to not be attacked again.

Now, at this point, mention the melee changes is pointless: we all know and suffer the same problems.

My point is, as a player, that is not a ploblem of DE being lazy. They're  not.

They care, I'm sure. I think is the lack of real direction the one to blame here. And i mean "direction" not as a path to take, but as a real "get a new project director".

I feel they are working hard but they are failing on working on the right things.

They are constantly working on things nobody ask about meanwhile we have bugs and unrefined mechanics that are somentimes in the game even for years.

Is understandable that new content must be produced to keep the game alive and expand the player base. I wish they continue that way.

But when you have game modes in coma, frames lacking proper reworks, old bugs, etc... and you neglect those to put your workforce on more energy costumization colors or nerfing stuff without understanding why people overuse it in first place, MOAR PARTICLES or pointless stuff like that... you are wasting your resources sometimes to even make things worse.

Other problem is the fact that, for what I see or what DE show me, just a bunch of the staff really play Warframe at the point of understand the game properly.

I know that to do that, you need a time that devs rarely have. But is the better feedback a dev can get. 

Idk man. I like Warframe a lot, but DE is making it hard for me for the wrong reasons.

They're not EA or Todd Howard. Imo they just a bunch of nice guys, their baby have become bigger with the years and now that this kid need some guidance, they are like those parents who kill themselves working but never talks with the damn kids. 

Edit: Sorry for my english. I never study it, or games where my teachers we could say. 

 

Edited by (PS4)hellahym
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WOW !... So... Long time no play. I'm a melee player, and the idea of being able to use guns without switching is nice and all, but these aim glide / RMB combo zooms are just unbearable.

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Honestly, the impression I get from Warframe a lot lately is... things being someone's 'baby' so to speak.

Operators and Focus were someone's baby, and they can't bear to see it changed, so it isn't. The previous rework to it didn't help much at all, I mean hell, Zenurik is even more broken now than it was before, since it's more energy faster and for your entire team, it's just fiddlier to use.

New Melee strikes me as someone's baby. They thought of how they wanted it to be, and really like the idea, and refuse to listen to people saying it's bad. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but that's the impression I'm getting. The cries of 'Just give it time, you'll get used to it' gave me the feeling of someone desperately trying to convince people it's great when those people are actively telling them they don't like it.

Well it's been how long now? Months. People may have gotten used to it, but they still don't like it. I won't ever like it. YES, I know there's changes coming down the pipe, maybe they'll fix it, maybe they won't, but at least SAY SOMETHING. We had teases and such showing off melee 2.999999 for ages, where's any of that for 3.0? Wukong? All I've heard on him is that he still suffers from the fact that there's no block button anymore.

Don't let your attachment to an idea blind you to how people actually feel on it. Again.

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Posted (edited)

A very easy improvement, would be to shorten/streamline the stance combos.  

I'm going to use "Tempo Royale" as an example:

Instead of requiring 3 strikes for "Bold Respite" Just let it work immediately from the start, if we're moving backwards while attacking. 

Instead of requiring the first 3 attacks for "resplendent calma" shorten it to working if you pause after the first strike. 

instead of requiring 2 strikes to get into "august mesto" let us jump straight in, if we're already "blocking" (or pressing RMB)

202d02f6dd.jpg  e9dc5889d5.jpg

 

Many of the melee stances could be vastly improved by removing the first initial attack requirements. We can already use the normal basic attacks if we wanted to. So let us just get into the more complicated abilities from the start, based on our combat need. To balance this, just give us bonus damage based on how many different combos we've been chaining together, to encourage us to use different attacks instead of spamming the same old ones. 

 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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On 2019-06-21 at 2:42 AM, vaarnaaarne said:

Yea, the Iron Staff combos are to a better direction (main issue with them is just clunky momentum and lack of melee sprint and how a combo matches the input, the inputs themselves are basically the way to go for Warframe) in terms of input, EXCEPT autoparry and RMB switch are still active disruptions to this. RMB should *not* switch to a gun, left-click and reload are more than enough for that if you want to keep instant switch. Manual block is vital for getting the combo inputs to work with melee weapons that aren't protected from switch, and even then it's extremely important for getting combo inputs to work RIGHT, since in the current system it sometimes stops registering your RMB hold anyway.

So yea, put manual block back in, autoparry and RMB switch out. It's necessary in order to get the (improved or not) combo inputs to work properly.

Isn't it sad that they thought giving up on blocking completely and waste 3 buttons to switch faster is a good mechanic?

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