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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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On 2019-06-27 at 4:18 AM, Maka.Bones said:

A very easy improvement, would be to shorten/streamline the stance combos.  

I'm going to use "Tempo Royale" as an example:

Instead of requiring 3 strikes for "Bold Respite" Just let it work immediately from the start, if we're moving backwards while attacking. 

Instead of requiring the first 3 attacks for "resplendent calma" shorten it to working if you pause after the first strike. 

instead of requiring 2 strikes to get into "august mesto" let us jump straight in, if we're already "blocking" (or pressing RMB)

202d02f6dd.jpg  e9dc5889d5.jpg

 

Many of the melee stances could be vastly improved by removing the first initial attack requirements. We can already use the normal basic attacks if we wanted to. So let us just get into the more complicated abilities from the start, based on our combat need. To balance this, just give us bonus damage based on how many different combos we've been chaining together, to encourage us to use different attacks instead of spamming the same old ones. 

  

The problem isn't when the combos proper start, it's the inputs, albeit judging by Iron Staff they're going to fix those.

Bonus damage based on combos used isn't really a good idea because this game's core loop IS about spam so the combos need to be differentiated by function (on the most basic level: Stay put and blend, or go forward fast and blend).

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22 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

The problem isn't when the combos proper start, it's the inputs, albeit judging by Iron Staff they're going to fix those.

Bonus damage based on combos used isn't really a good idea because this game's core loop IS about spam so the combos need to be differentiated by function (on the most basic level: Stay put and blend, or go forward fast and blend).

Seconded, I always try out every combo when a stance comes out, but I never use pause combos because at high attack speed with fast moving combat they just slow you down, it's not that combos aren't doable they just aren't well suited to the speed of warframe at the moment

 

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1 minute ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

Seconded, I always try out every combo when a stance comes out, but I never use pause combos because at high attack speed with fast moving combat they just slow you down, it's not that combos aren't doable they just aren't well suited to the speed of warframe at the moment

 

the iron staff combos are better actually...except once again...RmB combo  is ruined....they're better because i can see myself using them...where before they were too complicated for me to care about...i love complicated melee combos, but in a game that requires you to do everything so fast

i guess all we can do now as players is to stop the feedback and wait...no rants, nothing...just let us accept the fact that melee 2.9 was not successful and wait and see their responses 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

The problem isn't when the combos proper start, it's the inputs, albeit judging by Iron Staff they're going to fix those.

Bonus damage based on combos used isn't really a good idea because this game's core loop IS about spam so the combos need to be differentiated by function (on the most basic level: Stay put and blend, or go forward fast and blend).

You don't want to knock down an armored target, and use a finisher on them? I would

Simple combos with some basic utility concepts would still be good. Like a gap-closer, a block, a stagger, a knockdown, a finisher, and then your basic damage combo

Edited by Maka.Bones

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I'm talking on a very simple level, the level that every stance needs to be fundamentally viable. And those are the basic DPS spam. A finisher-opening stun combo can be there too, but nothing can ignore the fundamental need for being able to blend everything around you, and being able to move fast while blending everything around you. Considering the inputs shown in Iron Staff, should be doable and might address the stances that are simply too half-baked to be functional.

The problem with a bonus to damage based on variety of combos used is because if it requires X number of hits to land you will always have the problem of inconsistent enemy saturation (especially for specific types of enemy!). It's simply incompatible with the model of gameplay, you aren't fighting a single opponent, you're fighting hundreds of opponents, so your considerations and requirements for gameplay are fundamentally affected by it. It's why something like a launcher-driven air combo would never work in Warframe, and why combos need to be built around their spam functions, because it's all about kills per second.

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1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I'm talking on a very simple level, the level that every stance needs to be fundamentally viable. And those are the basic DPS spam. A finisher-opening stun combo can be there too, but nothing can ignore the fundamental need for being able to blend everything around you, and being able to move fast while blending everything around you. Considering the inputs shown in Iron Staff, should be doable and might address the stances that are simply too half-baked to be functional.

The problem with a bonus to damage based on variety of combos used is because if it requires X number of hits to land you will always have the problem of inconsistent enemy saturation (especially for specific types of enemy!). It's simply incompatible with the model of gameplay, you aren't fighting a single opponent, you're fighting hundreds of opponents, so your considerations and requirements for gameplay are fundamentally affected by it. It's why something like a launcher-driven air combo would never work in Warframe, and why combos need to be built around their spam functions, because it's all about kills per second.

you're talking as if spin-2-win didn't already exist lol..

The only reason melee stances need a revamp, is so we can be more involved than simply just blending everything or spamming the same attacks over and over. Otherwise, it would just be the same melee system that archwing has. 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

the iron staff combos are better actually...except once again...RmB combo  is ruined....they're better because i can see myself using them...where before they were too complicated for me to care about...i love complicated melee combos, but in a game that requires you to do everything so fast

i guess all we can do now as players is to stop the feedback and wait...no rants, nothing...just let us accept the fact that melee 2.9 was not successful and wait and see their responses 

I was checking out the new wukong ult, that's definitely a step in the right direction, I feel like it would be easier on them if full melee mode came back and they simply had a second attack button to switch it up, but if they really want to avoid another button at least there are no pause combos in wukongs stance. :thumbup:

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DE... in a recent interview you were asked to talk about the melee changes. And all you had to talk about was the stupid thing none of us asked for and talked more about cinematic finishers...

DE! We don't care about that right now! What we want is for you to address all these issues that we have been telling you about for months! We don't want you to stick your head in the sand and ignore it and work on something so trivial! Address the problems we keep bringing up then go back to that. 

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On 2019-06-28 at 9:08 PM, Maka.Bones said:

you're talking as if spin-2-win didn't already exist lol..

The only reason melee stances need a revamp, is so we can be more involved than simply just blending everything or spamming the same attacks over and over. Otherwise, it would just be the same melee system that archwing has. 

I try to pretend it doesn't, since in my opinion Maiming Strike is the worst thing to ever happen to melee and I refuse to use it purely out of protest.

Anyway, the fact doesn't change that in Warframe your damage output is extremely high relative to enemies, which severely lowers functionality of combo effects that depend on a full chain. Even if you use a stance with a finisher combo (there's actually nothing wrong with having these, issue is more that...), you only see it work rarely and even rarer you actually need it (in fact it could be argued this is literally never). The core gameplay of Warframe is just not very compatible with a more complicated melee system, so what combos should do is first and foremost is shift your momentum and mix fluidly (which at the very least requires improving the inputs which Iron Staff does; many stances and entire weapon types have other fundamental issues though, such as base range that is incompatible with Warframe meta). Melee is about movement and range, because you by necessity have to have DPS on the level that Warframe's gameplay assumes so the primary concern is APPLYING that DPS to as many mooks per swing as possible.

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6 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I try to pretend it doesn't, since in my opinion Maiming Strike is the worst thing to ever happen to melee and I refuse to use it purely out of protest.

Anyway, the fact doesn't change that in Warframe your damage output is extremely high relative to enemies, which severely lowers functionality of combo effects that depend on a full chain. Even if you use a stance with a finisher combo (there's actually nothing wrong with having these, issue is more that...), you only see it work rarely and even rarer you actually need it (in fact it could be argued this is literally never). The core gameplay of Warframe is just not very compatible with a more complicated melee system, so what combos should do is first and foremost is shift your momentum and mix fluidly (which at the very least requires improving the inputs which Iron Staff does; many stances and entire weapon types have other fundamental issues though, such as base range that is incompatible with Warframe meta). Melee is about movement and range, because you by necessity have to have DPS on the level that Warframe's gameplay assumes so the primary concern is APPLYING that DPS to as many mooks per swing as possible.

And yet, maiming strike is literally what you've been asking for. It literally makes your warframe into a blender for your enemies. 

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What i'd love to see is a melee system that can work similar to the combat style in force unleashed. In the sense that you can chain multiple different attacks together, while using your powers in tandem for better effects/combos. You have attacks for gap-closing, for deflecting/counter, for stabbing, for slashing, or for slamming, or for knocking people down or finishing them off. Atm there's no way of actually aiming your attacks up or down, or at an enemy's head unless you have the stance for it, and you go through 3-4 other attacks to reach the *one* strike you wanted. That seems excessively unnecessary and burdensome/clumsy. We just need a clean way to get multiple different versatile strikes, that we can control and chain together from one enemy to another (while keeping whatever damage bonus we've built up)

 

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3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

What i'd love to see is a melee system that can work similar to the combat style in force unleashed. In the sense that you can chain multiple different attacks together, while using your powers in tandem for better effects/combos. You have attacks for gap-closing, for deflecting/counter, for stabbing, for slashing, or for slamming, or for knocking people down or finishing them off. Atm there's no way of actually aiming your attacks up or down, or at an enemy's head unless you have the stance for it, and you go through 3-4 other attacks to reach the *one* strike you wanted. That seems excessively unnecessary and burdensome/clumsy. We just need a clean way to get multiple different versatile strikes, that we can control and chain together from one enemy to another (while keeping whatever damage bonus we've built up)

 

i think wukong's staff new combos got close to this style of combat...

because all the new combos that the staff has are interruptible...so it's so easy to go from mode to mode...and mix and chain combos together 

you can skip each combo with another one...

i'd like to see a new melee mod that benefits from this mixing in some way

this is the best thing about melee 3.0 so far 

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Please just put it back to the way it was in 2.0. Work on the combos and some other things but please please give me back the game I used to love SOO MUCH!!

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

i think wukong's staff new combos got close to this style of combat...

because all the new combos that the staff has are interruptible...so it's so easy to go from mode to mode...and mix and chain combos together 

you can skip each combo with another one...

i'd like to see a new melee mod that benefits from this mixing in some way

this is the best thing about melee 3.0 so far 

But can you jump on people, while impaling them, or pick them up and throw them at another person? Or chain a finisher, with a power/ability, or a shot?

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I have been playing this game for several years, its one of my favorites. i have just over 1100 hours put into this game. but i feel like a cant enjoy the game anymore due to this melee 3.0. just my opinion but i would really like to see the option in game play settings to possibly change between the old and new play style, because im sure im not alone.

 i would like to be able to aim glide with my melee out so that i can see where im going lol. if you have a sniper and attempt to aim glide your just zooming into a wall 300 yards out and have no idea where where your actually at in the air.

I would like to be able to block on my own... every time i try to due to muscle memory i just pull out my primary and take all hits to the face instead.

channeling is now an annoyance... pressing the scroll wheel down... come on...

maybe these new controls work for some people, but im sure they dont for some people aswell, especially people like me and many others that have played this game for years. this is why im asking for atleast the option to swap between the old and new format of melee. i hope someone at DE sees this and atleast considers the option. im sure a large portion of the veterans would appriciate it.

i honestly just want to enjoy the gameplay again.
"if it aint broke dont fix it"... just offer an alternative lol

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, xXZeplynXx said:

I have been playing this game for several years, its one of my favorites. i have just over 1100 hours put into this game. but i feel like a cant enjoy the game anymore due to this melee 3.0. just my opinion but i would really like to see the option in game play settings to possibly change between the old and new play style, because im sure im not alone.

 i would like to be able to aim glide with my melee out so that i can see where im going lol. if you have a sniper and attempt to aim glide your just zooming into a wall 300 yards out and have no idea where where your actually at in the air.

I would like to be able to block on my own... every time i try to due to muscle memory i just pull out my primary and take all hits to the face instead.

channeling is now an annoyance... pressing the scroll wheel down... come on...

maybe these new controls work for some people, but im sure they dont for some people aswell, especially people like me and many others that have played this game for years. this is why im asking for atleast the option to swap between the old and new format of melee. i hope someone at DE sees this and atleast considers the option. im sure a large portion of the veterans would appriciate it.

i honestly just want to enjoy the gameplay again.
"if it aint broke dont fix it"... just offer an alternative lol

Ditto.

I do love the new freedom of versatility with melee, and I love having no lag time between primary and melee attacks, but I also miss being able to choose when I block, and I'm sure other players who like to mostly melee also enjoyed having more control over it.

 

Though btw @xXZeplynXx you already aim glide with your melee, if you pressed E first it'll keep the melee out

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-06-30 at 5:37 PM, Maka.Bones said:

And yet, maiming strike is literally what you've been asking for. It literally makes your warframe into a blender for your enemies. 

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm talking about the requirements that melee has to meet because of the way DPS and meta are in this game, and how it needs to be taken into account. I am not talking about repeating the same combo, I'm talking about what need to be the fundamentals between different combos (which is first and foremost their movement speed). There is a general problem with people talking about hypothetical melee models in that they rarely take into account that these models would need to exist within Warframe, where for instance a Force Unleashed type model would not work at all because it is fundamentally at odds with the DPS-driven meta (that video takes 30 seconds, in Warframe you should aim to kill that size of group in 3 seconds, whether melee or not).

The problem with Maiming Strike is that it's simply a broken mechanic. Reduction of melee into slides only is terrible.

As for what I've literally asked for, I think having two melee attack buttons would be a good starting point. But that's not happening so it's a moot point.

Edited by vaarnaaarne
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm talking about the requirements that melee has to meet because of the way DPS and meta are in this game, and how it needs to be taken into account. I am not talking about repeating the same combo, I'm talking about what need to be the fundamentals between different combos (which is first and foremost their movement speed). There is a general problem with people talking about hypothetical melee models in that they rarely take into account that these models would need to exist within Warframe, where for instance a Force Unleashed type model would not work at all because it is fundamentally at odds with the DPS-driven meta (that video takes 30 seconds, in Warframe you should aim to kill that size of group in 3 seconds, whether melee or not).

The problem with Maiming Strike is that it's simply a broken mechanic. Reduction of melee into slides only is terrible.

As for what I've literally asked for, I think having two melee attack buttons would be a good starting point. But that's not happening so it's a moot point.

First of all, the guy was taking his time killing those enemies... he was moving slow.

Secondly:

I think that "meta" may be more of a problem, than the melee system. I think the expectation or drive to kill that many enemies within "3 seconds" is unrealistic and not very fun. It's not very engaging, and frankly you would't be able to see anything let alone be able to aim where the enemy is. The only way you'd be able to kill that many within 5 seconds, is if you "spin-2-win" around the area... and even that might take you 10 seconds. Not to mention that it's probably not very feasible/practical to develop based on human & keybinding limitations.

My point is that, sometimes that's simply not fun... Just because it's the "meta" doesn't mean it's the most fun... often times it's not; it's just the meta out of convenience or impatience. So F*** the meta. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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I agree, the meta is a problem, but there's only so much that can be expected to be done about it because you'd have to basically scrap the entire mod system and start from the ground up (which I'd prefer, but it's not going to happen). But because the meta is what it is, you have to work within it. So yes, that means that you need to expect that it takes 1 swing per several kills. If you don't, you end up simply being gimped and that's not fun either. If guns stay the way they are, having to do a full combo per enemy (or even per enemy group) would make you basically unviable.

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6 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I agree, the meta is a problem, but there's only so much that can be expected to be done about it because you'd have to basically scrap the entire mod system and start from the ground up (which I'd prefer, but it's not going to happen). But because the meta is what it is, you have to work within it. So yes, that means that you need to expect that it takes 1 swing per several kills. If you don't, you end up simply being gimped and that's not fun either. If guns stay the way they are, having to do a full combo per enemy (or even per enemy group) would make you basically unviable.

They could also change enemy progression & improve rewards per kill, and core mission/combat dynamics for higher level progression. 

It wouldn't be as big of an issue if melee killed less EPS, if they also didn't oneshot you at higher levels. 

That wouldn't require mod changes

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21 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Not as simple as that, since melee EPS has to compete with guns EPS.

I think you have it the other way around

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Random feedbacks :

In its current state I find melee quite tedious.

-For the sake of fluidity I feel like more actions should interrupt combos instantly like jumping, rolling or shooting since depending on the stance and weapon attack speed, starting a combo often result in undesired "self cc" which is very noticeable and frustrating for instance in the case of lower level ennemies that die early in the combo or "missed targets" (explained in third point).

-Even though I know that we have full loadouts at our disposal which include guns, I also find quite frustrating and unintuitive the lack of vertical range when trying to fight a flying ennemy (which is significantly worst in a staircase / slope). I understand that it would not make sense for certain weapons with short range like daggers, but I feel like using range mods on staves, polearms, whips etc should make it easier than it currently is to hit a flying target. The option of having a specific combo that would be more effective against flying ennemies would also probably be acceptable so we can adapt our gameplay depending on the situation.

-I don't understand the forced forward movements on melee combos when not pressing any directional keys. My favorite melee weapon used to be the Hirudo with still ~50% usage on my account. It was already a quite frustrating weapon to use due to its very short range but at least via the former quick melee system and actual control over our position, it was usable. Now a couple of melee taps put me in a forced moving capoeira that has a fairly high chance of actually missing the target by passing it so that I can enjoy waiting for the combo annimation to end just so I can try again. It feels terrible.

 

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Attention to everyone on this thread, it is obvious that DE will not be making any change of direction to the current setup of melee. Get used to having auto block and less key bindings and an aim button that just kicks you out of melee instead of blocking and teleporting weapons instead of just faster weapon swaps and single press weapon switch key binding (in place of hold). GGWP Warframe now has cancer.

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On 2019-06-30 at 8:41 PM, xXZeplynXx said:

I have been playing this game for several years, its one of my favorites. i have just over 1100 hours put into this game. but i feel like a cant enjoy the game anymore due to this melee 3.0. just my opinion but i would really like to see the option in game play settings to possibly change between the old and new play style, because im sure im not alone.

 i would like to be able to aim glide with my melee out so that i can see where im going lol. if you have a sniper and attempt to aim glide your just zooming into a wall 300 yards out and have no idea where where your actually at in the air.

I would like to be able to block on my own... every time i try to due to muscle memory i just pull out my primary and take all hits to the face instead.

channeling is now an annoyance... pressing the scroll wheel down... come on...

maybe these new controls work for some people, but im sure they dont for some people aswell, especially people like me and many others that have played this game for years. this is why im asking for atleast the option to swap between the old and new format of melee. i hope someone at DE sees this and atleast considers the option. im sure a large portion of the veterans would appriciate it.

i honestly just want to enjoy the gameplay again.
"if it aint broke dont fix it"... just offer an alternative lol

by far you are not the only one. I'm afraid it seems like it's over however. Game over man. Game over.

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