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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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I do not enjoy playing Warframe anymore with the new melee system:sad:. I do not like to play because i am sad to lose something that made Warframe so much fun.:sadcry:

puppy GIF

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I popped in to play the event and then left again, I only played the event cause I saw it would be gun only and I wouldn't get messed up by automatically trying melee mode like I have done every time I have played since the changes. The old melee system was so much fun I could literally play for hours using mostly melee and a tiny bit of firearms, but toggling channel, autoblock and autoswitch have drained all that fun out. I've gone over in detail several times in this thread so I won't do so again, I just want to say I'm one of the many people still waiting for something to be done. Tennocon is over now, I don't see a good excuse for silence anymore. 
 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Pyroxene1 said:

I do not enjoy playing Warframe anymore with the new melee system:sad:. I do not like to play because i am sad to lose something that made Warframe so much fun.:sadcry:

puppy GIF

tryed other weapons>? The hammer is fun to use i think!

Edited by (PS4)santospizarro

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Don't know if this has been stated before, but Valkyr, who I main, has been busted pretty bad by this rework. Her Hysteria now disables itself whenever you press any gun-related button, which is really annoying. Also the augment "Hysterical Assault" just straight up no longer works, and I loved to use that mod.

Keep in mind I am on xbone, so it may be a different story on PC, but I've been dealing with this for a while now and it's eating at my nerves when i'm in high-tier play.

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On 2019-08-06 at 2:49 AM, Loza03 said:

Agreed. In so far as I can tell, this is the part that both detractors and proponents of the new system like me agree on, for the most. Autoblock and the associated lack of control is the worst.

Have you heard of the phrase 'necessary evil'? I don't think any dev that uses the teleport or similar thinks it's artistically superior to drawing the weapons manually, but these choices are always done for gameplay reasons. Adding more animations takes more time which discourages mid-combat switching, which is antithetical to the intent of 3.0.

it wasn't necessary though, animations could have been faster in any case. It didn't hinder me in any way before and now it just feels like incomplete programming or simply unfinished/unpolished.

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On 2019-08-08 at 2:19 AM, SilviaS12 said:

it wasn't necessary though, animations could have been faster in any case. It didn't hinder me in any way before and now it just feels like incomplete programming or simply unfinished/unpolished.

It did hinder me, so in that respect, it's a neutral shift. Faster animations are still slower than no animations.

Some extremely polished games use teleport switching specifically because of that. DMC5 for example. That game has tons of graphical polish but gameplay - as it always should, comes first. DE wants a smooth transition and teleport switching is the best way to achieve that.

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8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It did hinder me, so in that respect, it's a neutral shift. Faster animations are still slower than no animations.

Some extremely polished games use teleport switching specifically because of that. DMC5 for example. That game has tons of graphical polish but gameplay - as it always should, comes first. DE wants a smooth transition and teleport switching is the best way to achieve that.

Well, clearly DE is the the one playing the game, not the players... I don't play DMC or Nier Automata more than once. Looks like Warframe is just that now for players like myself. By all means they should continue to change the gameplay for how they want it and not how the players want it. For me the animation was a part of the gameplay, it made it more realistic. It is becoming more comparable to an android hack and slash game.

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1 minute ago, SilviaS12 said:

Well, clearly DE is the the one playing the game, not the players... I don't play DMC or Nier Automata more than once. Looks like Warframe is just that now for players like myself. By all means they should continue to change the gameplay for how they want it and not how the players want it. For me the animation was a part of the gameplay, it made it more realistic. It is becoming more comparable to an android hack and slash game.

Again: Gameplay. Comes. First. Animation isn't a part of the gameplay. Part of the appeal, yes, graphics always have been appealing, but it actively did slow down gameplay when using melee. Quick melee still had uncancellable animations, which bogged the pace. It still does with gun switching.

A big part of Melee 3.0's goal is to remove as much of the divide between melee and gun combat as possible. Not having draw animations is the best way to do that. Sped-up animations look janky too, remember.

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14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

A big part of Melee 3.0's goal is to remove as much of the divide between melee and gun combat as possible. Not having draw animations is the best way to do that. Sped-up animations look janky too, remember.

The first big change they made already broke how parkour works with melee. And if you're using melee, parkour is your gap closing/bullet dodging/mid-air attacking tool. Without RMB to control the characters bullet jumping, midair somersaulting, etc, Melee is reduced to standing still pressing LMB. Which is all DE seems to think it is anyways.

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3 minutes ago, Ofeban said:

The first big change they made already broke how parkour works with melee. And if you're using melee, parkour is your gap closing/bullet dodging/mid-air attacking tool. Without RMB to control the characters bullet jumping, midair somersaulting, etc, Melee is reduced to standing still pressing LMB. Which is all DE seems to think it is anyways.

Yeah, I know, I brought this up in several previous comments.

Autoblock and all the associated bells and whistles is terrible, the only element of Melee 2.99 I don't like.

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14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Again: Gameplay. Comes. First. Animation isn't a part of the gameplay. Part of the appeal, yes, graphics always have been appealing, but it actively did slow down gameplay when using melee. Quick melee still had uncancellable animations, which bogged the pace. It still does with gun switching.

A big part of Melee 3.0's goal is to remove as much of the divide between melee and gun combat as possible. Not having draw animations is the best way to do that. Sped-up animations look janky too, remember.

Surely if they just sped up sheathing, holstering and switching animations that would achieve a more comfortable middleground, at least that's my two cents.

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Just now, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

Surely if they just sped up sheathing, holstering and switching animations that would achieve a more comfortable middleground, at least that's my two cents.

Not really. It'd still delay the inputs using the new system, which even if only for a short time, makes control feel a lot worse, especially for an attempt to break down the barrier between using melee and using guns. If there was a comfortable middleground, wouldn't something like DMC5 have taken it? I mean, that game animated the hair blowing in the wind from one of the characters bird friend dynamically. They cared about the graphical appearance of that game a lot.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Not really. It'd still delay the inputs using the new system, which even if only for a short time, makes control feel a lot worse, especially for an attempt to break down the barrier between using melee and using guns. If there was a comfortable middleground, wouldn't something like DMC5 have taken it? I mean, that game animated the hair blowing in the wind from one of the characters bird friend dynamically. They cared about the graphical appearance of that game a lot.

I mean I used melee the majority of the time but I still regularly switched to firearms, despite everything I never felt like the animations were too long before. I often would jump high up, take a shot or two and switch to melee before hitting the ground, but maybe it was faster for me cause I bound melee mode to a separate key instead of the annoying "hold down switch to enter melee mode". So yeah I still stand by faster animations would be a good middleground, perhaps having a separate key by default would also help, but seems DE is trying to cut down on the amount of keys we use so I guess they wouldn't agree to that. 

Also how necessary is it to break down the barrier between gun and melee, before it was like we had 3 weapons to use, now it feels to me like primary and secondary with melee tacked on to those two instead of it's own thing.

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40 minutes ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

I mean I used melee the majority of the time but I still regularly switched to firearms, despite everything I never felt like the animations were too long before. I often would jump high up, take a shot or two and switch to melee before hitting the ground, but maybe it was faster for me cause I bound melee mode to a separate key instead of the annoying "hold down switch to enter melee mode". So yeah I still stand by faster animations would be a good middleground, perhaps having a separate key by default would also help, but seems DE is trying to cut down on the amount of keys we use so I guess they wouldn't agree to that. 

It probably was faster for you, but the new system makes the switch faster still and without custom keybinding.

45 minutes ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

Also how necessary is it to break down the barrier between gun and melee, before it was like we had 3 weapons to use, now it feels to me like primary and secondary with melee tacked on to those two instead of it's own thing.

The new system adds more depth, depth being defined as the number of functionally distinct choices a players has at any time.

Before in gun mode you'd have two options with most weapons, being firing the gun and quick melee. And in melee mode, you'd have three-ish, depending on stance (Some stances had four combos, but others only two). Switching between them is impractical in most combat situations - even the one you've described since you are still vulnerable for several seconds

Now, with all stance options and gunplay available instantly or near-instantly, we do lose the option of quick melee, but have at all times the gun plus the melee stance attacks - meaning 4-ish. With 3.0 in full, that will rise to 5 on average as 3.0 stances will all have 4 combos.

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Well, four combos if RMB switch is removed. Otherwise the RMB switch will simply disrupt the RMB combos so badly they are practically unuseable because of the annoyance and disorientation factor, leaving us with two combos.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Again: Gameplay. Comes. First. Animation isn't a part of the gameplay. Part of the appeal, yes, graphics always have been appealing, but it actively did slow down gameplay when using melee. Quick melee still had uncancellable animations, which bogged the pace. It still does with gun switching.

A big part of Melee 3.0's goal is to remove as much of the divide between melee and gun combat as possible. Not having draw animations is the best way to do that. Sped-up animations look janky too, remember.

if this is the case and animation means nothing they may as well use java and make minecraft block graphics. For me animation is a part of the game play. Especially when you have to time what you want to do and think ahead what you intend to do.  Assassin's Creed captures this very well, and Warframe did have it to some extent but not anymore.  "sped-up" animations not remove them entirely. also it was never janky for me, but it surely is now ten fold ESPECIALLY with polearms and dual daggers or dual swords.

Edited by SilviaS12

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9 hours ago, Ofeban said:

The first big change they made already broke how parkour works with melee. And if you're using melee, parkour is your gap closing/bullet dodging/mid-air attacking tool. Without RMB to control the characters bullet jumping, midair somersaulting, etc, Melee is reduced to standing still pressing LMB. Which is all DE seems to think it is anyways.

Exactly.

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5 hours ago, YourFriendlyNoggin said:

I mean I used melee the majority of the time but I still regularly switched to firearms, despite everything I never felt like the animations were too long before. I often would jump high up, take a shot or two and switch to melee before hitting the ground, but maybe it was faster for me cause I bound melee mode to a separate key instead of the annoying "hold down switch to enter melee mode". So yeah I still stand by faster animations would be a good middleground, perhaps having a separate key by default would also help, but seems DE is trying to cut down on the amount of keys we use so I guess they wouldn't agree to that. 

Also how necessary is it to break down the barrier between gun and melee, before it was like we had 3 weapons to use, now it feels to me like primary and secondary with melee tacked on to those two instead of it's own thing.

This is my exact sentiment. Been saying this for a while now. Feels like melee has no place in the game and only there for show and tell.

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4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It probably was faster for you, but the new system makes the switch faster still and without custom keybinding.

The new system adds more depth, depth being defined as the number of functionally distinct choices a players has at any time.

Before in gun mode you'd have two options with most weapons, being firing the gun and quick melee. And in melee mode, you'd have three-ish, depending on stance (Some stances had four combos, but others only two). Switching between them is impractical in most combat situations - even the one you've described since you are still vulnerable for several seconds

Now, with all stance options and gunplay available instantly or near-instantly, we do lose the option of quick melee, but have at all times the gun plus the melee stance attacks - meaning 4-ish. With 3.0 in full, that will rise to 5 on average as 3.0 stances will all have 4 combos.

adds more depth? "as the number of funtionally distinct choices a player has at any time"? 
you say this as if it is more depth, as if we have more choices, which is far from reality, we have a very shallow and narrow gameplay now, way less choices of what a player can decide to do and actually do. We can't block glide if we choose to carry ranged with melee along with all other melee functions, only melee attack and that horrid auto block. If I choose my sniper with my melee I am always gliding in a scope too zoomed in, this is beyond irritating. What I actually "want" to do I cannot choose and what I "can" do is what I never "want" furthermore I have so much less to choose to do that I did before.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The new system adds more depth, depth being defined as the number of functionally distinct choices a players has at any time.

Before in gun mode you'd have two options with most weapons, being firing the gun and quick melee. And in melee mode, you'd have three-ish, depending on stance (Some stances had four combos, but others only two). Switching between them is impractical in most combat situations - even the one you've described since you are still vulnerable for several seconds

Now, with all stance options and gunplay available instantly or near-instantly, we do lose the option of quick melee, but have at all times the gun plus the melee stance attacks - meaning 4-ish. With 3.0 in full, that will rise to 5 on average as 3.0 stances will all have 4 combos.

I haven't gained choices with this melee switch.  I lost more than has been offered.  Here is what I could no longer do:

1. I can't manually block anymore, unless I go Melee only.

2. I cannot effectively stay alive with Life Strike.  Toggled Channeling results in lost time activating/deactivating, and is a severe energy drain because of Auto-Block.

3. I can't carry anything like a Datamass or Powercell effectively with Melee,  because if I try to blockglide to cover distance - such as crossing a gap - I am forced to switch to my Primary, which drops whatever I was carrying.

4. I cannot stay in melee mode when performing combos that require the "aim" button to be pressed.  After finishing such a combo, the gun is forced back out.

5. I cannot use the old Quick Melee unless I remove stances, despite its original effectiveness for certain situations without locking me into stance movements.

But the gun and blade pops out quicker.  Yay?  If people are so concerned about the delay in switching from melee to gun and back again, why is there no outcry against reload animations?  Weapon depending, those take up far more time than a weapon switch.  Casting animations for powers?  Those are still a thing that takes time.  Why have those not been completely removed in favor of "streamlining" the action?

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8 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

if this is the case and animation means nothing they may as well use java and make minecraft block graphics. For me animation is a part of the game play. Especially when you have to time what you want to do and think ahead what you intend to do.  Assassin's Creed captures this very well, and Warframe did have it to some extent but not anymore.  "sped-up" animations not remove them entirely. also it was never janky for me, but it surely is now ten fold ESPECIALLY with polearms and dual daggers or dual swords.

Nice slippery slope, tell that to DMC5. Because like it or not, that game has great graphics and still uses teleport animations because they fit the gameplay. This is because it's a fast-paced, reactionary action game, unlike Assassins Creed, which is largely a stealth game - at most a stealth/action hybrid. Warframe hasn't been a stealth game for years.

8 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

adds more depth? "as the number of funtionally distinct choices a player has at any time"? 
you say this as if it is more depth, as if we have more choices, which is far from reality, we have a very shallow and narrow gameplay now, way less choices of what a player can decide to do and actually do. We can't block glide if we choose to carry ranged with melee along with all other melee functions, only melee attack and that horrid auto block. If I choose my sniper with my melee I am always gliding in a scope too zoomed in, this is beyond irritating. What I actually "want" to do I cannot choose and what I "can" do is what I never "want" furthermore I have so much less to choose to do that I did before.

Trying to convince me that auto-block is terrible is pointless, as I already agree with you. I've said before that auto-block is the element of 2.99 I don't like. That doesn't change the fact that in every other respect, this is a neutral or beneficial change. It's not like you've managed to disprove that having all stance combos and gun active simultaneously provides fewer options than only one or the other.

Ask DE to bring back manual block, as I do.

5 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

1. I can't manually block anymore, unless I go Melee only.

Petition to bring back manual block. Quick switch and manual block are not mutually exclusive.

5 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

2. I cannot effectively stay alive with Life Strike.  Toggled Channeling results in lost time activating/deactivating, and is a severe energy drain because of Auto-Block.

Channeling activates just as fast and responsive as it ever did and it's also far from your only option for staying alive. It's also a dead system walking anyway.

5 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

3. I can't carry anything like a Datamass or Powercell effectively with Melee,  because if I try to blockglide to cover distance - such as crossing a gap - I am forced to switch to my Primary, which drops whatever I was carrying.

Yes you can. They literally fixed this months ago. If you can't, it's probably a bug, so report it as such.

5 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

4. I cannot stay in melee mode when performing combos that require the "aim" button to be pressed.  After finishing such a combo, the gun is forced back out.

Yes you can. I do that all the time. And it's an incredibly minor point in the extremely vast majority of situations anyway considering the whole 'there's no barrier between melee and gunplay use', since being in gun mode

And also: ask for manual block back.

6 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

5. I cannot use the old Quick Melee unless I remove stances, despite its original effectiveness for certain situations without locking me into stance movements.

Like moving and shooting at the same time, which melee 3.0 is going to fix, as demonstrated in the Wukong rework. 

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

But the gun and blade pops out quicker.  Yay?  If people are so concerned about the delay in switching from melee to gun and back again, why is there no outcry against reload animations?  Weapon depending, those take up far more time than a weapon switch.  Casting animations for powers?  Those are still a thing that takes time.  Why have those not been completely removed in favor of "streamlining" the action?

Because those thing don't affect the depth of the game.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Channeling activates just as fast and responsive as it ever did and it's also far from your only option for staying alive. It's also a dead system walking anyway.

I see you are someone who never used Life Strike, or did on rare occasion.  I have said this before, but Channeling has never been useful as an on/off system.  The energy drain is too severe.  Those who did use it know it is for quick, hard-hitting strikes.  Like the Gunblade on FFVIII.  You activate it for the hit to maximize damage, then let it go.  The way actions are bound on a controller, Channeling cannot be used in this way anymore.

As for there being other ways to stay alive  -  they are not as effective or do not provide the same level of independence.

Healing Return is ineffective for most weapons.  Only heals on a hit when the target is already affected by status, and not on a kill-strike.  Suited for fast strike, low damage weapons with high status chance.  In a game mode where kills matter, such as Survival, this will not do the job well until higher levels, when you take more damage than it heals anyway.

Using consumables.  Sure, I will dump my resources in those just to pound them down whenever I am taking damage in an area that I am not going to be in the same place for very long.  Efficient.  Sure.

Healing ability frames.  Many of these abilities do not heal as quickly as a power-hit-Life Strike.  In many cases you are restricted by casting time, and aim.  But aside from that, I should not be forced to limit myself to heal-frame gameplay.  For years, I made my way as a solo player.  So for me to have to restrict myself to heal-frame gameplay is absurd when there are a multitude of frames I do enjoy playing as who can't heal.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Because those thing don't affect the depth of the game.

I disagree.  I don't see this as "depth of gameplay."  What I see is a shallow attempt to encourage people who used guns to pull out the Melee now and then because "hey, no holster speed!"  These changes do not improve melee.  Maybe they improve gunplay, I don't know.  As someone who loved the melee in this game before, I see this as a smear in our faces.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

I see you are someone who never used Life Strike, or did on rare occasion.  I have said this before, but Channeling has never been useful as an on/off system.  The energy drain is too severe.  Those who did use it know it is for quick, hard-hitting strikes.  Like the Gunblade on FFVIII.  You activate it for the hit to maximize damage, then let it go.  The way actions are bound on a controller, Channeling cannot be used in this way anymore.

As for there being other ways to stay alive  -  they are not as effective or do not provide the same level of independence.

Healing Return is ineffective for most weapons.  Only heals on a hit when the target is already affected by status, and not on a kill-strike.  Suited for fast strike, low damage weapons with high status chance.  In a game mode where kills matter, such as Survival, this will not do the job well until higher levels, when you take more damage than it heals anyway.

Using consumables.  Sure, I will dump my resources in those just to pound them down whenever I am taking damage in an area that I am not going to be in the same place for very long.  Efficient.  Sure.

Healing ability frames.  Many of these abilities do not heal as quickly as a power-hit-Life Strike.  In many cases you are restricted by casting time, and aim.  But aside from that, I should not be forced to limit myself to heal-frame gameplay.  For years, I made my way as a solo player.  So for me to have to restrict myself to heal-frame gameplay is absurd when there are a multitude of frames I do enjoy playing as who can't heal.

And your Operator? Free healing on demand, can also have access to powerful CC, damage buffs, armour stripping and energy restoration on top of healing you? 

And again, Channeling's a dead system walking. It's being replaced anyway.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

I disagree.  I don't see this as "depth of gameplay."  What I see is a shallow attempt to encourage people who used guns to pull out the Melee now and then because "hey, no holster speed!"  These changes do not improve melee.  Maybe they improve gunplay, I don't know.  As someone who loved the melee in this game before, I see this as a smear in our faces.

They improve the combat system as a whole. The only thing that's worse about melee is auto-block. Directional slam, access to the full range of combat options, and in the future, stances that don't restrict movement as much are all upgrades.

Campaign to be rid of auto-block. Not against the system as a whole.

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Posted (edited)

I've given the new melee system plenty of time to "get used to it" now... and it's only getting more and more annoying to use.

It feels gutted and painful to use. The things I enjoyed about using Melee are gone.
I did not use spin-to-win, and that's left perfectly in tact, strangely enough, despite this being one of the things they intended to address (likely with the removal of the combo counter, but we have yet to see anything about that.)

Primarily the loss of Quick-melee on Polearm (This is what got me to play this game at all). (I HATE using guns. I hate "shooters" in general, the only reason I gave Warframe a try was because I could use melee as my primary method of attack. A dual-bladed polearm is the signature weapon of characters in a book I'm writing, so it was fun to play with one used in the manner I would find fun.) Swiftly cutting through hordes with an attack that allowed me to stay in constant movement, and didn't take over control of my position, even with a weak attack that had no combo multipliers, felt BETTER than this mess of slash-slash-root-slash-slash-root-fling-way-over-there-past-enemies-fling-you-over-a-cliff that we have now. I have not found a single stance that I like. I do not expect the new stances to be any better if Wukong's combos are any indication of the future.

I can no longer chase after fleeing capture targets while meleeing. Every time I'm rooted, they escape my range.

My groundslams used to knock pesky heavy enemies down for melee finishers to pre-empt their ground-punch-knock-back attacks. Now, they get ragdolled away, and they get back on their feet and shoot me from a distance again, long before I can track them all down, get back in range of melee (right on top of them for ground finishers) and overall, gives the enemies an advantage against me, as if they get a free surprise attack as I try to find where they all got flung.

When Mining/Fishing/Scanning, I no longer have an easy self-defense option that lets me get back to work, always having to go back to my gear wheel to resume my main activity. I can't even break crates and junk as I pass by, which is a constant pass-time of mine. Seriously, I thought this was fixed at one point.

When jumping down at enemies, to quickly land and attack with my normal melee (because I don't want to ground slam and ragdoll the enemies away), and the enemies shoot at me, I suddenly go into this blockglide that keeps me in harm's way much longer than a simple drop and attack would, and has many times caused me to overshoot landing sites and sent me careening over ledges into the abyss. The loss of control is maddening.

That seems to be a hallmark of this update: loss of control. They wanted to simplify and blend guns and melee to the point where "just use the attack button, we'll choose what you actually attack with" is the overall feeling I get, and it predominantly chooses or defaults to guns. Did I mention I HATE using guns? I used my guns situationally, for strategic purposes where melee wasn't feasible (very very rarely.)

 

There is no defending this. There is no "getting used to" this. There are no acceptable alternatives to what we had to turn to now, just with different buttons. They're just GONE. All the strategies and tactics I used with melee are GONE.

So, if the plan was to just ignore this thread, and all the posts about this while people just "got used to it", and stopped complaining as this became the new normal... sorry: not happening.

 

Edited by (PS4)AyinDygra
Clarified a sentence.
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I think the new system is really good, had no trouble about this. Maybe just replace quick melee with every stance on the standard E smash combo. Another problem is the ragdoll instead of a knockdown on slam attack on the ground, i think slams should knockdown enemies.Just change the melee combo counter and fix maiming strike fast.

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