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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)

Just here to remind DE that the old 'system' was better, the new 'system' blows, and it isn't even a system, but enforced keybindings.

I hate enforced keybindings.

There have been plenty of explanations why and it has been long enough that I don't need to repeat my reasons.

The only good thing is aimed ground slam.

Let

us

toggle

back

old

"system".

Please.

Thank you, love you long time.

Edited by JujuHex
Forma
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16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Nice slippery slope, tell that to DMC5. Because like it or not, that game has great graphics and still uses teleport animations because they fit the gameplay. This is because it's a fast-paced, reactionary action game, unlike Assassins Creed, which is largely a stealth game - at most a stealth/action hybrid. Warframe hasn't been a stealth game for years.

Trying to convince me that auto-block is terrible is pointless, as I already agree with you. I've said before that auto-block is the element of 2.99 I don't like. That doesn't change the fact that in every other respect, this is a neutral or beneficial change. It's not like you've managed to disprove that having all stance combos and gun active simultaneously provides fewer options than only one or the other.

Ask DE to bring back manual block, as I do.

Petition to bring back manual block. Quick switch and manual block are not mutually exclusive.

First of all, The graphics is not an issue, just the cheesy animation, fine you like it? do you, 
Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you that autoblock is garbage, point blank it is, what I was doing is stating that we have "less depth" not more. Less choices, less gameplay and overall less functions. 
Finally, I don't need to ask anything, I am not the only one being affected by these changes and I know I am not the last by a long shot. people will keep speaking about it and the increasing decline in playerbase has grown since the update. I need to do nothing as all you have suggested is futile to me at this point. I have been on this thread since early pages. I stopped playing warframe since the after trying the update only to come to this thread, Jest at me if you like, the price of rice will remain the same.

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14 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

 

I disagree.  I don't see this as "depth of gameplay."  What I see is a shallow attempt to encourage people who used guns to pull out the Melee now and then because "hey, no holster speed!"  These changes do not improve melee.  Maybe they improve gunplay, I don't know.  As someone who loved the melee in this game before, I see this as a smear in our faces.

precisely what I said in earlier pages, nothing more than a supplement to gunplay is what it is now. 

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16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's not like you've managed to disprove that having all stance combos and gun active simultaneously provides fewer options than only one or the other.

Ask DE to bring back manual block, as I do.

 

One or the other? how about I only have the choice of using melee ONLY just to utilize block glide. I CAN'T take a sniper with me or ALL right mouse button functions for melee will be gone. I have ZERO exclusivity for melee when I take a ranged weapon along. If I take a ranged weapon with me I have ZERO purpose for melee as it become USELESS without it's vital functions.

Ask DE? As do you? please, look around. From page 1.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

First of all, The graphics is not an issue, just the cheesy animation, fine you like it? do you, 

Animation is graphics.

5 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you that autoblock is garbage, point blank it is, what I was doing is stating that we have "less depth" not more. Less choices, less gameplay and overall less functions. 

Autoblock is bad. I'm well aware.

5 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

Finally, I don't need to ask anything, I am not the only one being affected by these changes and I know I am not the last by a long shot. people will keep speaking about it and the increasing decline in playerbase has grown since the update. I need to do nothing as all you have suggested is futile to me at this point. I have been on this thread since early pages. I stopped playing warframe since the after trying the update only to come to this thread, Jest at me if you like, the price of rice will remain the same.

Warframe has not had a particular decline in players. The growth has slowed down, yes, but this can most accurately be attributed to last years content issues, as a similar trend can be seen in late 2016 to 2017 with the infamous 'the Wait Within'. That's also no excuse not to give feedback laser-focused at the most pressing issues, which mesns they're more likely to be fixed.

 

Edited by Loza03
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5 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

One or the other? how about I only have the choice of using melee ONLY just to utilize block glide. I CAN'T take a sniper with me or ALL right mouse button functions for melee will be gone. I have ZERO exclusivity for melee when I take a ranged weapon along. If I take a ranged weapon with me I have ZERO purpose for melee as it become USELESS without it's vital functions.

So, yes, sounds like an issue with lacking manual block. Because block is tied to that button. No mode exclusivity is the whole point. And most people get along fine without block glide, it's just for aerial self-defence and for sniper rifles. A vital function it is not. If an enemy isn't successfully hitting you and you're not using a sniper rifle - a situation that is reasonably common due to how manoeuvres and dodging attacks work - aim-gliding with guns out is mechanically identical to block-glide. The absence of it is causing more significant problems - interrupting attacks and interrupting movement, mostly.

5 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

Ask DE? As do you? please, look around. From page 1.

 I have. So many of these posts are complaining about things which either are entirely subjective, don't exist (like the inability to aimglide with a datamass) or are the active improvements. Clearly, sifting through all that, manual block or lack thereof is the main complaint as it causes the majority of most of these issues. So, fixing that problem will fix most of Melee's issues. So it should be the main topic of feedback, because enough people have said it that DE has already reported that they're looking to give melee back some of its old feel, which may well involve block, since that's such a topic of discussion.

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13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Animation is graphics.

 

Excuse me but, no it isn't.

Animation = movement.

Graphics  = art.

Animation is how you move your art assets.

2 different thingies, mate.

 

13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

So it should be the main topic of feedback,

 

Excuse me again sir/maam, you can 'suggest' what others should give feedback on, but you can't command them. As long as people follow forum rules, they can give feedback on whatever they feel like. As realistic or outlandish, as correct or incorrect as it may be.

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27 minutes ago, JujuHex said:

Excuse me but, no it isn't.

Animation = movement.

Graphics  = art.

Animation is how you move your art assets.

2 different thingies, mate.

I know. I also know that the distinction doesn't matter in this situation, because neither of those things are gameplay.

31 minutes ago, JujuHex said:

Excuse me again sir/maam, you can 'suggest' what others should give feedback on, but you can't command them. As long as people follow forum rules, they can give feedback on whatever they feel like. As realistic or outlandish, as correct or incorrect as it may be.

By this point, you're right, it has devolved into that. In the context of the beginning of the debate though, it was more "this is a necessary evil to achieve the goal of the rework". And now we're here.

I still stand by Autoblock being the biggest problem, as it is the root cause behind many of the complaints given.

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I haven't commented in this thread in a while, but I strongly dislike how weapon switching works while having gear items active (i.e. the scanner, fishing rod, etc.).  I don't know when this was changed, but it definitely happened after the release of the melee rework.  I used to be able to melee while using gear and then go back to the gear item I was using by hitting aim.  Now the weapon switch unequips the gear item and makes me use my gun instead.  I have no desire to hotkey every single piece of gear I use regularly just so that I can quickly go back to it when this happens.  If you're going to take away quick attack, then at the very least give us a convenient alternative for clearing enemies that interrupt open world activities.  It's honestly mindboggling to me that melee functionality would be reduced even further with no constructive changes being made whatsoever.

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It's just another example of how the execution of everything in 2.9 is so clearly ramshackle and sloppy. The fact that you start gliding uncontrollably when you get shot while jumping says everything about how little thought or effort was actually put into these changes, and the fact that it's still that way half a year later and not just a funny anecdote about an obvious oversight that was corrected after release says everything about how little thought or effort we should expect to see from here on out.

Instead of rewriting any of the melee backend, they just removed a few commands and wired others together with no regard for the consequences. That's it, no forethought, no actual game design. The targeted slam is the only actual new functionality that was added, it's also the first thing they ever showed regarding Melee 3.0 nearly fifteen months ago.

The reason there's so many issues with autoblock isn't because the concept of passive damage reduction with melee equipped is faulty or because so many people just love holding right click, but because several functions of different mods and weapons (and even basic game functions like gliding with no zoom) are bound to block and not one moment of effort was expended to make them remain functional. Melee and gear interactions are annoying for the same reasons - they didn't get rid of "sword alone" like they said, they made it the only choice in a way that doesn't play nice with most equipped items. People brought up almost every issue that's been said in this thread before 2.9's release, but DE at this point are openly not listening to our feedback (see: the augment patch) so it's not surprising that those portents fell on deaf ears.

Last stream Steve said that they were only "cracking the surface" on melee changes, and I'd believe it - I sincerely don't think that there's any active work going on for melee on any regular basis. It's why they bounce or ignore questions on the subject, why they're vague when they have to say something, why not a single employee will even acknowledge any of the issues that have been endlessly restated here over the last half year. Core gameplay improvements are and will always be a non-priority so long as expansions and pretty baubles bring in more fast cash. It's like a city building amphitheaters and theme parks to chase tourist dollars, meanwhile the streets turn to the potholes and the water system rots. I've let several coupons go by that I might not have, but I don't feel comfortable giving this company my money right now.

Nothing would make me happier than being wrong. If the next devstream shows a comprehensive overview of what's being worked on to correct the current issues and make improvements to the "ninja" part of their "space ninja" game, I'll be hooting and hollering louder than anyone. But I know in my heart that, during the usual concept art and deluxe skin white noise, Reb will broach the subject (bless her for always trying) and the rest of the room will exchange awkward, silent glances before stammering a bit and quickly changing the subject. 

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If I may interject with a somewhat random suggestion for full 3.0 implementation...

It would be exceedingly nice to have an "unarmed" melee weapon when no melee is equipped, similar to Garuda's Talons are for her, but unmoddable, perhaps with base impact damage equal to the frame's base armor. Not meant to be at all a powerful weapon, but something that functions, at a basic level, for the tutorial segments before getting a melee, and to allow for melee-based actions such as blocking (perhaps with only a 1% damage reduction due to your arms still getting hit, just blocking your vitals instead) and movement tech such as directional slamming and slide-attacking. This is easy to implement too, as in a form it already exists, the "unarmed" weapon was used during the Hallowed Nightmares event, among other occurances. It would also allow stealth attacking without a silenced gun or melee weapon.

It would, in theory, also allow those challenge-hearted to enter a mission fully unarmed aside from their own fists and Warframe abilities.

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On 2019-07-29 at 11:27 PM, Vethalon said:

The whole problem with people missing certain quickmelees could be easily fixed by introducing a new stance for every melee. (One could also just remove the stance and put 1-2 forma into the weapon to offset the lost points, it's not like melee weapons need a lot of forma right now).

Not even that. Polearm melee with no stance is utterly terrible. It's nothing like the old flowing quick melee attacks. As a future change - sure, I'd be OK with that.

On 2019-08-09 at 4:20 AM, Loza03 said:

Again: Gameplay. Comes. First. Animation isn't a part of the gameplay. Part of the appeal, yes, graphics always have been appealing, but it actively did slow down gameplay when using melee. Quick melee still had uncancellable animations, which bogged the pace. It still does with gun switching.

A big part of Melee 3.0's goal is to remove as much of the divide between melee and gun combat as possible. Not having draw animations is the best way to do that. Sped-up animations look janky too, remember.

Melee 2.whatever has actually increased the divide between melee and other (note that this is not just gun combat, it's explicitly ruining more than that). You can't alt-fire after melee, your gun won't auto-reload from empty if you swing and you lose syndicate procs if you swing.

Swinging breaks mining, fishing and scanning, requiring yet more inputs to get your original tool back. Requiring the player to do more crap to get back to where they were is the complete polar opposite of "removing the divide".

Autoblock destroys fluidity of motion and response, and breaks some niche playstyles such as those involving Guardian Derision or the Vaykor Sydon.

Aim switch ruins the ability of dedicated melee players to fine-tune their aerial moves without nauseating FoV changes, it also completely #*!%s over exalted melee.

And you know what? We already had very smooth flow between melee and gunplay before. Quick melee was perfectly effective. I never once felt constrained when I popped off a Corinth airburst while in the middle of Lesioning a bunch of close enemies.

I can't do that any more.

Choosing a Sanctigris (for example) over the Tigris Prime was something worth real consideration because of the syndicate proc charging and activating when you had the gun out - so even if you were slashing away, the XP from your squadmates would make your gun explode periodically, giving you a burst of extra damage, a useful proc (veil, perrin and arbiters procs are also very nice to have) and a quick heal.

Not any more.

This is also completely ignoring the many and varied problems with stance melee animations. Problems which have been completely and consistently ignored for a full 8 months after this abomination was hurled at us. Problems which were pointed out long before any of these melee changes were released.

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55 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

-snip-

You literally admitted you didn't care very much anymore on another thread, and that was after running around in circles of you reiterating the same arguments which I'd already disproven over and over.

I'm not having that argument with you again.

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I like the new melee system, I love that every melee weapon can do a targeted ground slam now, which is awesome. Fly up high in the sky and ground slam enemies from hundreds of meters away like a GOD. The effects look great, too.

I very rarely used manual blocking in the old system. Usually the gun was stronger than the melee weapon I was carrying so there was no reason to switch away from it, and if it was the other way around I rarely switched back to my gun. Auto block means I can get the benefits of blocking without putting the gun away completely, and switch between shooting and melee easily. It took me a little while to adjust from using 'quick melee' but I'm used to it now. It seems like having a toggle option for auto or manual blocking, and another one for fast melee switching could solve a lot of issues people have with combos. I know that some control schemes have made it difficult to do certain combos now, but personally I can't think of a time where I needed a specific combo to deal with a situation, nor did I ever commit any combos to memory except for the spin2win one with Galatine (it was pretty funny seeing 4 people do this forever all around Hydron before they added the spin limit). Usually I just choose a stance with a good primary combo and if it feels good then I go with it.

The only thing I've had an issue with is how aiming your primary without a secondary weapon equipped will drop an objective you are carrying (power cells, mobile defense objectives) - but I've made a thread about that already.

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On 2019-08-14 at 12:20 PM, Loza03 said:

You literally admitted you didn't care very much anymore on another thread, and that was after running around in circles of you reiterating the same arguments which I'd already disproven over and over.

I'm not having that argument with you again.

You have yet to disprove any argument. Ignoring points does not make them go away.

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It's a mess, DE knows it's a mess, and yet who knows when it will be fixed? Along with the UI changes they put out whatever they're in the mood to and if it's half-baked so be it. The permanent beta excuse got tired long ago. It would be nice to see them execute things in a finished, tested state with only minor polishing required instead of what we've been getting.

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Posted (edited)

I haven't played in a minute got on and I have to say not liking the new aim instead of block button. It ruins my mobility use to be able to run with melee out and be able to glide easily all over the place but know I keep switching to my primary way too much and not to be able to keep melee out like we use to messes with my combos. Not saying its terrible the new format since a lot of people are enjoying it, just suggest an option to have it the old way let it be the users choice on picking the controller play styles 

Edited by (PS4)DaringPanda

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earlier in this thread i heard some people talking about a stealth nerf of sort involving melee and movement. Could someone fill me in if they know what it was? It was way before melee 2.9 so not this year

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On 2019-08-19 at 1:34 AM, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

earlier in this thread i heard some people talking about a stealth nerf of sort involving melee and movement. Could someone fill me in if they know what it was? It was way before melee 2.9 so not this year

Basically, with the Chimera update a large number of melee weapons (or more accurately, melee weapon moves) lost all momentum (which is to say, all your movement except slide was locked during them). This was never listed in patch notes, or even acknowledged afterwards. A similar thing had happened months prior, and back then it was apparently a bug.

Melee 2.9 simply expanded this to cover almost every single stance.

So right now, melee is less mobile than using guns.

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Mid-combo slam / knockdown attacks rag-doll enemies across the room (and definitely out of melee range). It should be self-explanatory that knocking enemies out of your melee combo is not beneficial...

Slams and ragdolling needs to be scaled back, big time.

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Posted (edited)

Just adding my +1 to the pile. Autoblocking is terrible because it takes control away from us. Please let us longpress F to lock melee mode like before.

It's bad enough that if Melee 3.0 is ready tomorrow I'd want you to roll it back today.

Edited by Druufus
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-08-20 at 2:37 PM, Lefract said:

Mid-combo slam / knockdown attacks rag-doll enemies across the room (and definitely out of melee range). It should be self-explanatory that knocking enemies out of your melee combo is not beneficial...

Slams and ragdolling needs to be scaled back, big time.

My personal suggestion to ragdolling all over the place or up to the friggin' roof isn't so much that you'd necessarily need to reel it in, you just need a wide-arc "air finisher" that specifically hits ragdolled enemies even remotely in your vicinity (at, say, 70 degree elevation so nearest standing enemies would be caught in as well) with 50% defenses no-sell like a ground finisher would.

Otherwise, yea, slams that can throw enemies out of your attack range are just bad for melee and should be scaled back to the values where the enemies will stay within swings.

Edited by vaarnaaarne

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