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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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On 2019-07-15 at 1:54 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Well sucks for you, but DE had to prepare for tennocon... which many people actually did enjoy (so I wouldn't call any of this rubbish). And now they're getting back on track with things, so you're still gonna have to wait a while. 🙂

It would be really beneficial for all of us to be patient, if we really want the devs to do a good job on melee. So please if you want melee to improve, be nice and be patient.

Call me toxic sh*t, but you not gold hunter

Please Simple : Add toggle block On/Off that simple . Patient  for half years ? A simple solution ? Problems with using items from gear wheel . What the f*ck ?

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I wrote this in a General Discussion thread, but wanted it seen in a Feedback thread instead:

 

Quick Melee had (compared to combos, at least for how I play(ed)):
Precision - you knew the exact pattern that repeated quickly and where the path of the weapon would go, being able to time and aim slashes. Due to the old polearm quick melee slashes being diagonals, you could hit aerial and crawling targets without jumping and whiffing all over the place, or relying on slams or finding the exact move in a combo that strikes in the area you want to hit, and time it so the combo strikes that place at that time.

Power - because combos are often slow, flashy, and take control of movement, you get locked into attack patterns that completely miss enemies, attacking at a slower rate, and leaving yourself open to enemies from all sides. Because of all of that, despite lacking in multipliers and forced status procs, the reliable, focused, accuracy of directing all of your blows to land exactly where you want them, made quick melee stronger.

Fluidity - since quick melee did not root you in place, you could swiftly move across a battlefield, slashing through the hordes. The fluidity was even better for quickly choosing to shoot an enemy and then, when out of ammo, automatically reload after dealing with something with a melee slash or two. Even more fluid, was the ability to use gear wheel tools like the Simaris Scanner or fishing and mining, and defend yourself with melee for tiny random skirmishes, without needing to go back to the gear wheel after every single attack, to return to the task at hand.

There's more... but yeah, bring Quick Melee back, PLEASE.

 

Additionally:

If "Quick Melee" doesn't come back, in favor of just adding new combos (which would only superficially address the issues of Melee 2.7): if those new combos take control of my movement, lock me into attack patterns, root me, fling me past enemies I'm currently engaged with, fling me over cliffs, or ragdoll enemies out of my range... I will only use combos "by accident"... and will dread every second that I don't have precise, powerful, fluid control of my actions. Just a head's-up for the devs.

 

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On 2019-08-23 at 6:30 PM, GUNN4EVER said:

bring quick melee back.

Ding Ding..  This is your wake up alarm to remind you -- DE -- that this thread is not going away any time soon and that some of us would like to have quick melee...  You know, instead of a clapped out Devil May Cry Fighting mechanic that takes away from out personal want for control. If we wanted that we'd go back to Final Fantasy whatever with crappy menu driven systems...

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after playing quite a bit on the new system, its clear to me that there are 2 things that i cant get used to and have to be adressed.

1: is the aim button swapping weapons to primary. the autoswapping is something we can get used to, and many might even like it allot. but as for meleecombo's that use block being broken has to be fixed. i can only imagin how bad is must feel if your favorite stance is now unusable, or atleast no fun to play anymore. as it is right now im just avoiding any stances with a blockcombo or just use it as a noncombo stance.

2: autoblock. this dumbed down style of blocking is just horrible. getting interupted nonstop while trying to combo is horrible. sometimes i just prefer to trade the dmg taken in order to get my combo in, but autoblock prefents this chooice. also not being able to skillfully block knockdown, but instead having this automated on percentage of blockchance feels horribly unrewarding. it was the most rewarding feeling when you learned what you could block in order for it to prevent you from being knocked down and executing it propperly. 

although there are other changes i dont really like, it took me some getting used to and its very playable and in no way takes away from the smooth feel of the game itself. 

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Greetings Tenno!

In brief, we owe you an update on Melee changes. Last Devstream had one remark about something maybe making it into Gauss’s Mainline, but this is no longer the case. You can see the clip here: as stated by Steve on Devstream #130.

We wanted to give you some insight into our process and why this decision was made.

The melee “beast” is a large one to tackle, and while we could add in some minor changes, the knock-on effects to other aspects of melee (such as Stances, blocking, Mods, Augments) may cause more issues than improvements. Frankly, we need to look at the system more holistically and make decisions based on thorough testing, and re-works of the varying components involved.

Those reworks are not going to make it into the system before our up and coming mainline update, and while we would have loved for these changes to make it sooner rather than later, we simply need more time to implement these changes to the expansive collection of melee systems in place.

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope you enjoy all that the Mainline Update has to offer when it reaches you at supersonic speeds!
 

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13 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

Those reworks are not going to make it into the system before our up and coming mainline update

Which mainline do you mean? Im sure its not the one we'll have this week.

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25 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

The melee “beast” is a large one to tackle, and while we could add in some minor changes, the knock-on effects to other aspects of melee (such as Stances, blocking, Mods, Augments) may cause more issues than improvements. Frankly, we need to look at the system more holistically and make decisions based on thorough testing, and re-works of the varying components involved.

Yea, it was a good excuse a year (literally) ago.

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Nothing new then tbh it was vague when steve mentioned it but that vagueness isn't coming anyways now do yeah nothing new 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greetings Tenno!

In brief, we owe you an update on Melee changes. Last Devstream had one remark about something maybe making it into Gauss’s Mainline, but this is no longer the case. You can see the clip here: as stated by Steve on Devstream #130.

We wanted to give you some insight into our process and why this decision was made.

The melee “beast” is a large one to tackle, and while we could add in some minor changes, the knock-on effects to other aspects of melee (such as Stances, blocking, Mods, Augments) may cause more issues than improvements. Frankly, we need to look at the system more holistically and make decisions based on thorough testing, and re-works of the varying components involved.

Those reworks are not going to make it into the system before our up and coming mainline update, and while we would have loved for these changes to make it sooner rather than later, we simply need more time to implement these changes to the expansive collection of melee systems in place.

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope you enjoy all that the Mainline Update has to offer when it reaches you at supersonic speeds!
 

Thank you for acknowledging that player concerns exist, and thank you for being cautious about addressing them. Warframe is hellaciously complex, and is definitely the sort of project where going back to change underlying systems is drastically harder than moving forward and layering more on top.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb [DE]Bear:

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

Can we tune back the ragdoll effects on slam attacks there? Ragdolling is nice and fun until you realize that you need to kill the enemy that you just knocked out of your range, Volnus and Arca Titron have suffered quite a bit from that because they used to not ragdoll enemies with their slams.

On the same front can we have knockdown immunity back on heavy weapons? They used to just ignore knockdowns to compensate for longer swing animations. Chimera update broke that and it wasnt fixed since. Autoblock is far worse than that because it still interrupts your swing.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes.

Thank you for being the only developer to finally make an appearance to say this.

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If you not going to remove Autoblock, reconsider adding a toggle under Options to disable it and add back a manual block via Aim button.

Please & thanks.

:community:

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3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greetings Tenno!

In brief, we owe you an update on Melee changes. Last Devstream had one remark about something maybe making it into Gauss’s Mainline, but this is no longer the case. You can see the clip here: as stated by Steve on Devstream #130.

 

Good to hear an update, even if its not news; it at least works as a heads-up.

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I dont care how much time it will take, or when will it come out, all im asking for, is dont nerf my girl Valkyr. Pls

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10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

On one hand, I really do appreciate this, because there has been a lot of detailed feedback regarding the updates to melee, and I'm very glad to see DE take it into account, but on the other... are there any specifics to this? For sure, autoblock hasn't been well-received, and there may need to be a change in the design of Melee 3.0 stances given the feedback Wukong's Iron Staff has received, but would amending those features really be that holistic a process? It sounds like the devs are reconsidering the entire design of the update while it is still being midway delivered, which doesn't sound ideal when the biggest pain point with Melee 2.99999 so far is mostly just that we've been stuck in this transitional state for so long.

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12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greetings Tenno!

In brief, we owe you an update on Melee changes. Last Devstream had one remark about something maybe making it into Gauss’s Mainline, but this is no longer the case. You can see the clip here: as stated by Steve on Devstream #130.

We wanted to give you some insight into our process and why this decision was made.

The melee “beast” is a large one to tackle, and while we could add in some minor changes, the knock-on effects to other aspects of melee (such as Stances, blocking, Mods, Augments) may cause more issues than improvements. Frankly, we need to look at the system more holistically and make decisions based on thorough testing, and re-works of the varying components involved.

Those reworks are not going to make it into the system before our up and coming mainline update, and while we would have loved for these changes to make it sooner rather than later, we simply need more time to implement these changes to the expansive collection of melee systems in place.

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope you enjoy all that the Mainline Update has to offer when it reaches you at supersonic speeds!
 

Absolutely. Take as much time as you need.

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While I am glad to see that DE is taking notice of how disruptive the changes to melee (to date) have been, I am still marveling at how we got to this point from a simple request to speed up the animation time for holstering/weapon swaps

...Because that's, essentially, how we got here.

@[DE]Bear It's fairly clear that there are some intents as it relates to melee that DE has and I would greatly appreciate some transparency regarding what those actually are.

Is it still that DMC style of gameplay?

Do you want block removed?

Why not just roll it all back to the previous style and add these different styles in as toggle-able options instead?

I would really appreciate some transparency from DE relating to intent and vision on this subject at this point.

 

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lets be real, we're not seeying any new melee content until next year... every stream its the same vague "there is something" and that's it.... 
I just hope when this "meme" of melee 2.9999999 finally comes out its really good... 

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Posted (edited)

Let's take a small step back, and consider a little thing...

How hard would it really be to implement rollback to melee 2.0 (while at it, rollback the chimera momentum stealth nerf too and give all melee free movement back)... But keep the current weapon switch speed (and directional air slam)?

I understand that it does take a lot of time to rework the combos or make entirely new functions like whatever at least was supposed to become of channeling. But I am a little skeptical in regards to how much work it would take to address the single biggest issue facing melee right now, RMB and autoblock. At least to me it doesn't look like a big deal to correct, even if its negative impact to gameplay is massive. Or at the very least, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be hard to acknowledge this and say what to do about it and how long that'll take.

Going over melee 3.0 in phases was a good idea, it would allow for fast adjustments and removal of concepts that do not work. But right now it's hard to call it a phased release in actuality because it has been a good while in phase 1, or even the last minor tweaks.

 

What the players that use melee primarily want and need the most right now are:

1) Communication

2) Transparency

3) Addressing the matter of RMB and Autoblock, and Quick Melee

Edited by vaarnaaarne
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The problem with the phased release, was that they're not using it like expected, to make adjustments based on feedback along the way... it's been months as an implemented (broken) part of the core gameplay... with only hints that things are being looked at in the background, while we're left to "deal with" the state the game's in currently.

While I understand some people who like the combos have limited issues with the system, for others, their entire play-style was gutted. This killed the fun for some people, for months. These problems didn't even need testing to expect... months before they implemented certain "features" of melee 3.0, we pointed out why they'd be bad, and to re-think them... but they bullishly ran ahead with their plans. Now we're using them, and the expectations came to pass... I'm glad they realize that it really did kill fun, and there are issues, and they're looking at how to fix them "properly" (which means salvage as much of their planned system as possible, while addressing the concerns, without a complete rollback.)

It does feel like the Railjack/Empyrean and Planes of Duviri expansion stuff is taking center stage now, as priorities to them, and the way the "team" that was supposedly working on melee was mentioned by Steve, it seems like a very small team (or even, dare I say, 1 person? - or one person is bottlenecking it, as leader of that team, as they look at many options, and haven't decided how they want to address it...)

The title of a recent General Discussion thread may be hyperbolic (expecting Melee 3.0 in 3019), it does seem, as a player who watches the streams, and tries to keep up-to-date with current developments in one of the 2 biggest issues relating to my fun in the game, both of which are making me play far less than before, it seems (this is my perception, and posts like DEbear's recent update help) that we won't see Melee changes that make the game fun again, until long into 2020, perhaps after next Tennocon, at the earliest... that's my perception... and it saddens me that this game is no longer fun to play right now, and the future is so bleak.

I still play with a friend to help him out... and I "have to play" to get the Nightwave stuff... but if those things weren't factors, I would be playing other games. I've finished Nightwave, so now I have a break where I can play those other games, and I'm relieved and optimistic about my time gaming... until Intermission starts... *sigh*

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15 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greetings Tenno!

In brief, we owe you an update on Melee changes. Last Devstream had one remark about something maybe making it into Gauss’s Mainline, but this is no longer the case. You can see the clip here: as stated by Steve on Devstream #130.

We wanted to give you some insight into our process and why this decision was made.

The melee “beast” is a large one to tackle, and while we could add in some minor changes, the knock-on effects to other aspects of melee (such as Stances, blocking, Mods, Augments) may cause more issues than improvements. Frankly, we need to look at the system more holistically and make decisions based on thorough testing, and re-works of the varying components involved.

Those reworks are not going to make it into the system before our up and coming mainline update, and while we would have loved for these changes to make it sooner rather than later, we simply need more time to implement these changes to the expansive collection of melee systems in place.

What we can say with certainty is that your concerns have been heard, and they are at the forefront of our minds when we consider alterations. The changes to quick-melee, how channeling and blocking are affected all the way to how Valkyr’s power set has felt the knock-on effects of blocking changes. As we are sure you can understand, this transition will be much more complicated than the transition from Melee 1.0 to 2.0, and we want it to be the best that it can be.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope you enjoy all that the Mainline Update has to offer when it reaches you at supersonic speeds!
 

You guys could have at least reverted the "minor changes" that negatively affected the Melee system once you realized you need a crapton more time. Melee was more functional before the "minor changes". Own up to your mistakes and revert them rather than leaving this mangled mess that is Melee 2.(9) in existence, I highly doubt anyone would mind losing auto-blocking and getting quick melee back until the full Melee 3.0 is completed.

As it stands though, those words mean nothing. Just a cute little excuse. You guys have a track record of releasing the first stage of something and then never fully completing it. So why should we trust that you'll ever complete Melee 3.0? Either stop promising that you'll do things when you have no idea if you're capable of it, or hold onto your promises and start releasing Melee 3.0 on a per weapon type basis, like you said you would. Cause it's getting embarrassing how many promises you make and hardly ever deliver on. I fear for Railjack, since it will also apparently release in "stages", so, if the first stage has mixed reception, will you ever complete it, or just throw it in the bin?

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