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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)

Hey DE, thanks for this thread! I'll transfer my suggestions from the workshop thread along with keeping this post updated...

Most important things that needs addressing right now:

1. Give us an option in the settings menu to disable the forced weapon swapping from equipped melee to primary/secondary when aimgliding/right-clicking. Switching weapons on left-click/firing is already adequate for most players.

  • What we have now is highly problematic because we can no longer block and have damage reduction while aimgliding (since right-clicking takes away your melee weapon). Being able to block at all times is crucial for Warframes like Excalibur ☹️

2. Also give us an option in the settings menu to allow for channeling to be held or toggled.

  • Right now it's difficult for seasoned players to get used to the new forced toggle, and it also makes parrying and brief channeling (such as for Life Strike) much less intuitive.

Other things to consider changing:

1. Increase the melee stance combo resume time window (when weaving in some gunplay) to match with the melee hit combo counter time of 3 seconds.

  • If a major goal of this rework is to encourage interplay and synergy, it seems natural and still balanced to allow resuming a stance combo within 3 seconds of quickly swapping to shooting, being the same as the base melee combo counter time. The current melee stance resume time window of about 1 second is really not enough to be productive or satisfying with the melee-gun interplay... 😕

2. Keep the phase 1 improvements but also bring back the option to equip and put away melee weapons if we hold down "F".

  • Not having the ability to draw your melee weapon without taking a big swing seems silly, and most people would like having the option to sheath and unsheath melee weapons as before. We want to be able to see those beautiful weapon draw and sheathing animations again when we hold down "F" 😄

3. Bring back the "Quick Melee" combos, but only trigger them if the melee button is spammed while sprinting forward. When spammed but just running forward, use the equipped weapon stance's regular combos.

  • The quick melee combo should make a return because it's a key component to some beloved playstyles, and to those who preferred the faster and shorter combos of quick melee. If it's brought back in this way where it doesn't interfere with the stance combos, then it's a win-win for everybody.

4. Give us an option in the settings menu to toggle autoblocking on or off (default setting being on). If autoblocking is set to off, the block key can be manually bound by the player.

  • Although autoblocking is a good idea for most players in general, there's also reasons to keep manual blocking as an option for advanced players who enjoy the additional depth of gameplay and/or for certain builds like Rage and Hunter Adrenaline where you want to take more damage, while still being able to carry primaries and secondaries. The bandaid solution we have now with enabling manual blocking only if we have no primaries and secondaries equipped doesn't work for most people, and is an unpolished compromise until a true setting toggle is implemented.

5. Add a melee reticle slam indicator when your Warframe is in the air, which lights up to communicate whether a ground slam will be initiated if the melee button is pressed when the camera pointed at a certain angle.

  • It would be very useful to know exactly where the angle threshold is that separates an air attack from a ground slam, whenever you are in the air.

 

Overall, I applaud DE's awesome vision in terms of what they are trying to accomplish with streamlining melee and encouraging melee-gun interplay, and there has been some great changes so far like the fast & directional ground slams, the ability instantly swap and fire, and the ability to instantly execute stance combos. However, these changes don't have to shed everything we loved about the old system too with the suggestions mentioned above 😊

Hopefully this feedback is considered! Thanks again for the support 🤗

Edited by KitMellow
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Posted (edited)
Quote
  • Manual blocking/parry has been added when players wield only a Melee weapon in a mission (i.e NO Secondary or Primary equipped). This is possible because in this specific state, the keybindings are free to allow this manual blocking. We do not plan on adding it to any other state yet. The default keybind for this is RMB/Right Mouse Button, as it was in the past. 

I was excited when I first read this until i actually tried it..... You can manual block but the game still auto blocks for you....

Please remove channelled blocking or disable autoblock due to the reasons in my previous post:

8 hours ago, TrigrH said:

Over 6000hrs clocked on steam and the first day I didn't feel like playing after trying the new melee system.

For a lot of players melee is there primary mode of play, certain frames synergise with melee much more than others, and many including myself love the rage + life strike playstyle.

Forcing an autoblock and making channelling a toggle results in this playstyle almost impossible to play. (Channelled blocking drains all your energy when you are simply trying to heal yourself.)

I don't understand why these two changes were made? As far as I can tell the core of the new melee system seems solid, but I cant use the system without the control over blocking and channelling which was such a core element to my gameplay.

Atleast for know please give us a solution?

Thanks.

 

Edited by TrigrH
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Posted (edited)

Just my two cents on the concept, because I haven't actually gotten to try it out yet, but...

 I am really not digging the upcoming changes to blocking and channeling.

As a switch user, alt fire is bound to my right stick.

This will make it impractical for me to both aim and use channeling at the same time while slashing; I can already see myself twirling in circles because I pressed the right trigger too hard to hit Channel while slashing, slipping to the left or right, and ending up missing most of my hits as I try to readjust my aim.

Blocking being automatic also sounds very very bad for me; Auto blocking via the aiming reticle means that, the moment I'm not able to perfectly tell where an enemy is shooting from, I'm going to be taking cheap shots from out of nowhere until I can figure out where they are and readjust my aim specifically to them.

On top of that, it now makes it complicated to try to figure out how I'm going to aim Glide with my melee weapon out.

How will that even work for Switch users, let alone controller users in general?

To me, these changes sound more like un-asked-for and unnecessary burdens, ones that the players will have to spend time away from playing and having fun to "re-learn".

Sometimes keeping the basics untouched is a good thing. We're used to this style by now; it's going to be frustrating for many to be forced to give up manual blocking and aim-gliding, not to mention switching channeling to a stick...

 

Edit; apparently I'm not the only one that feels this way, but wow, now there's evidence of this messing with otherwise-solid melee play styles.

Please, devs, rethink your changes to blocking and channeling.

Some of us rely on those things being under our full control.

This doesn't feel ninja-smooth...

Edited by (NSW)Smashbrolink
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We really need an option to disable right click switch and instead use it for "manual block" (heck, not even that, just having RMB use aim glide and combo input is enough). It's just too disorienting to zoom when you try and use RMB, and melee aim glide is still something that would be useful to have (ie, if you use toggle aim and use melee for a snappier aim glide).

The new system really would need redone melee inputs and structure (ie, two melee attack buttons), it is handy to be able to switch at extreme speeds but the combo system is not made with this in mind.

 

Also melee still needs unrestricted sprinting back.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

We really need an option to disable right click switch and instead use it for "manual block" (heck, not even that, just having RMB use aim glide and combo input is enough). It's just too disorienting to zoom when you try and use RMB, and melee aim glide is still something that would be useful to have (ie, if you use toggle aim and use melee for a snappier aim glide).

The new system really would need redone melee inputs and structure (ie, two melee attack buttons), it is handy to be able to switch at extreme speeds but the combo system is not made with this in mind.

 

Also melee still needs unrestricted sprinting back.

Agreed; I also feel that removing quick melee is a big no-no as far as combat flow is concerned.

Some people... okay, MOST people... love being able to run past enemies while slashing wildly, when they're in a hurry and don't want to use ammo but want to either briefly stun or even directly kill their foes, without losing their forward momentum.

This new system doesn't smooth the flow, it stutters and basically removes it.

It also just piles on the necessity of having to rework a whole bunch of combo/stance mods, that I'd bet my bottom dollar the devs would rather not HAVE to re-code, just to keep the game running without bugs/nerfs to the playstyles of its gamers.

 

If they just stopped messing with blocking and channeling, and stopped trying to force-feed us "smoother" swapping which messes up the aforementioned points, these changes, like Melee slams and better-looking combos, wouldn't be so bad.

I get the feeling this is going to make a lot of players stop playing, if they force it forward instead of giving us options...

Edited by (NSW)Smashbrolink
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Dear DE. Hear me

My take/solution on this is gonna be as following.

Solution for Current Melee 2.9

E and LMB will switch what RMB will do which mean,

E + RMB = Blocking

LMB + RMB = Aiming

And i add another solution for those who want the "Quick Melee"

Add UI at bottom of Weapon name, something like a bar that will fill within 1.5 second when player are committed to certain action (e.g Shooting or Meleeing) and once player are committed to respective action within 1.5 second. They will switch to respective action automatically. So action like "Quick Melee" and even "Quick Shoot" will be viable. But action like Charge attack will make full switch to Melee mode and holding down Fire (LMB) will full switch to Shooting mode.

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My only complaint is that this new system completely removed the attack pattern that the nunchaku when using Quick Melee. It was my favorite aspect about them.

In fact, I think it was the only melee attack that didn't make you do forward steps/move forward at all. is it possible to squeeze it back in? Please lol

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Posted (edited)

Here's an idea for aim gliding; let us pick what button does it, and if it goes on a button that's already taken, make it a "hold/tap to glide" feature, again with us deciding which we'd like to have it do INDEPENDENT of other toggles.

This could also be useful for Melee/quick melee; with your gun out, tap the melee button for quick strikes with your melee weapon, or hold briefly after the first quick slash to transition into the second hit of a full Melee combo, then staying in full melee mode until you swap back to gunplay.

Which, btw, could ALSO remain bound to the current holster key, only made swifter, to also allow one to switch to Melee or gunplay just as it does now by holding it.

As for quick-swapping to gun mode, why not make it more intuitive by letting us double-tap the block button, when in Melee mode?

Or heck, give us a toggle to let us choose whether double-tapping or press-then-continue-to-hold either block or channel will swap back to gun play when in Melee mode, in addition to the standard holster button?

That way there's two ways to do it; one slow [holster button held to swap modes as usual], and two fast, double-tap or press-then-hold block/channel for gun, & press-&-hold melee button to smooth-swap to second hit of full Melee mode combos?

Everyone wins.

 

Edited by (NSW)Smashbrolink

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As a veteran player, I hate the new melee system. It is so fluid it feels broken and hokey. I liked manually holding F to equip my weapon. I liked blocking myself, and I liked channeling. The new effects are beautiful. The directional ground slam is neat. Everything else is garbage. I vote for it to be changed back to Melee 2.0 but retain the ground slam and effect changes. This new system is just not fun, and ruins melee for me.

 

Oh and get rid of that stupid thing you did with crouch a while back. It broke stationary bullet jumping for me. If I want to sprint i'll stop crouching and press the sprint key.

P.S: thanks for removing my favorite thing about Glaives; now I can't detonate them anymore.

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Changes seem solid, I'm going to miss getting primary wep procs from fast melee, but hey.

I'm also spending a whole lotta time running back for data masses, but muscle memory should adapt.

 

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Return the old control, it is much more dynamic! the old control, it was possible to set up for themselves, to be comfortable! 

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After spending abit of time leveling my Tatsu I realized that basically, nothing really "changed" in the way of using melee, combo buttons are still present (right-mouse-button) only the blocking directly with right-click is gone and channeling moved on a way better method.

Gameplay wise, this is awesome, the mobility is improved a lot with the Death from Above slam mechanics, and the "alt-fire" to toggle on and off channeling can open a lot of possibilities such as "alternate melee combat style" (like a spear that could be thrown by alt-fire, or glaive close range or long range style, so many things possibles).

The only problem I saw for now is the autoblocking against melee mobs which is extremly annoying but that's probably already on the list of "things to fix" so I'm confident on that point.

Very good job on that phase 1, I'm excited to see what's next !

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Please reconsider quick melee 

when you say (Uninterrupted Combat ) we dont feel it that way 

e.g Polearms stance mods when i go for E+E+E+E there is a full 1-sec delay between the moment my warframe finish combo animation and the moment he returns to normal also the combo moved me forward and i didn't want that... that delay also means lower my dps + gives chance to my opponent a small window to hit me 

quick melee was 2 or 3 quick hits that keep repeat as long as you got for E+E+E+E+E+E+E+E....etc and you dps determined by weapons attack speed 

if i want to perform combo i would press and hold F to to switch to full melee mode but no one do that .. ppl use stance mods just for mod capacity bcos melee combos are hard to perform and to memorise all of them 

you can add a new stance mod (global stance mod ) that will make any melee perform quick hits without any combo 

or please find any way to get back quick melee 

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Hi everyone, I post this instead of a friend of mine, who started playing warframe last week and since can't post in the forums yet.
But he seems to have a solution to the problems that have occured with the patch an thus I decided to post his stuff for him.

___________________________________________


Hi everyone (and hopefully the DE^^), here is Illgore and I have a few things to share about the patch and how DE could easily solve all problems and still have his intentions unfold.


There are a few probems as the forum is already aware of, but no one seems to have nailed the cause of the problem imho:

"Dive (RMB) is still bound with Zoom together to a single key"

This is something that favors ranged weapons and thus causes an imbalance between ranged & melee combat flow.


The solution is simpler than you (& DE) might think:


1)
Bind (the RMB-)"DIVE" to "holding jump" key as in many other games and most probems are solved.


2)
"RMB" should always be "Zoom" and should enable quick shots at distance targets for melee (this is the sole moment when a melee build shoots at something, when it is to far away and thus you need to zoom in anyway).
It should reequip the melee weapon if it was selected before RMB usage. Further it shouldn't break melee combos. And we need to change the RMB combos so that they don't cause unwanted inputs errors.


3)
revert "E" to Quick Melee / Melee Channeling

4)
revert "F" to again equip melee when holding it


You wanted more fluid input/output results? Here you go.
- It would enable autoblocking while diving with a melee weapon.
- melee focused builds could switch quick to ranged and back (with RMB Zoom), equaling the flexibility of ranged focused builds
- Dive has the "option" to Zoom or not with a ranged weapon


I see the good intentions of melee 3.0, but it just needs some refinement to shine. Thx for your time to read this and I hope I can draw some attention to my suggestion.

BTW, thx @DE for this great game 😃 I wish I had discovered it a few years ago and not last week^^.

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First someone whined about people posting about it in general discussion, then in the general update thread, so I'm only gonna post this one more time. And then probably a few more because if I get in my COMPLAIN GROOVE.

New melee weapon swapping honestly feels horrible, like we've gone back to melee 1.0 where quick melee was the only melee. Melee weapons no longer have the same set of buttons available to them as other weapons, since those buttons got carved out and given back to guns. Melee is inherently stripped down with this update, which I'm not fond of. Auto blocking is weird and uninteractive especially with how readily the game will now switch you back to guns, and the concession to M1 Melee people is a poorly-applied bandaid that the system was clearly not designed for. I hate having to swing my melee at nothing to get it out, and I hate having to aim and lurch my screen forward to switch back to guns, I hate not being able to block and glide, I hate having to manually put my sword away when I just want to get off my archwing.

There's a lot I hate. I like the new aimed slam, I like the new effects, but the whole weapon swapping thing just really has NOT hit the mark for me in the absolute slightest.

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I want quick melee, manual blocking, and the ability to manually swap to my melee weapon to come back, post-haste. The melee system was one that did not need refining. I hate how magically my gun turns into my sword and vice-versa. I like the old system better and it was imo far superior and felt better. The fluidity gimmick is dumb and really hurts the flow of weapons in general. 3 weapons, and being able to select between each of them, not this press "E" then instantly fire my gun. Please reconsider this change and this system before making further mistakes like this DE.

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with this new system you can semi zoren copter lol. or at least feel like what it is with garuda on her 1. when doing the thermite event (i 4got what its called) when im in flight mode archwing, all i have to do is aim a little it far and then blam! slam attack from miles away. i think this happens with all the melee weapons tho, but in case it aint, im using an ohma 😄

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10 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

First someone whined about people posting about it in general discussion, then in the general update thread, so I'm only gonna post this one more time. And then probably a few more because if I get in my COMPLAIN GROOVE.

New melee weapon swapping honestly feels horrible, like we've gone back to melee 1.0 where quick melee was the only melee. Melee weapons no longer have the same set of buttons available to them as other weapons, since those buttons got carved out and given back to guns. Melee is inherently stripped down with this update, which I'm not fond of. Auto blocking is weird and uninteractive especially with how readily the game will now switch you back to guns, and the concession to M1 Melee people is a poorly-applied bandaid that the system was clearly not designed for. I hate having to swing my melee at nothing to get it out, and I hate having to aim and lurch my screen forward to switch back to guns, I hate not being able to block and glide, I hate having to manually put my sword away when I just want to get off my archwing.

There's a lot I hate. I like the new aimed slam, I like the new effects, but the whole weapon swapping thing just really has NOT hit the mark for me in the absolute slightest.

I 100% agree. Keep the slam and effects, revert the entire swapping mechanic to Melee 2.0. It felt better, looked better, and was easier to understand. This new method of melee looks like something hastily put together in an indie Early Access game; no swapping animations and immersion-breaking methods of weapon swapping.

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Posted (edited)

The only problem I have with this so far is the fact that gliding automatically switches me back to guns.  It's a bit annoying zooming in when I don't intend to shoot anything as it makes it harder to see where I'm trying to land.

Other than that, I like it.  Until this update, I only ever took out my guns when I absolutely had to because I didn't feel like switching back and forth just to shoot that one enemy I can't reach.  Now I just shoot it and go right back to punching things.  I'm loving the aimed slams too.

Edited by ChromaUmbra
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Posted (edited)

I usually play full melee and lots of pvp for fun, because of the new update the slamming is a LOT nicer but the auto block makes certain times... wonky to say the least. For example I was dashing through the air towards a guy when suddenly the auto block turned on and now I was air sliding way past him through the air and into nothingness before I die... Granted it was funny just imagining what he saw and what happened but when this happens 5 times within a 3 second period... yea can get slightly annoying. The blocking with gun and sword for sword combos is also really annoying but you can take that off in the options menu, the auto block on the other hand... cannot be taken off, I would like the auto block a LOT if it only worked on the ground but that may be too far for programing standards when in a fast paced game like this. What I recommend? Change the auto block option a bit, keep the slam, change the gun and sword combo a bit so it works better and... make the nikana OP!! I'm joken bout the last one but the others are pretty basic and I expect the dev team already is on it or knows about it. Also while your at it can you make slamming not the pinnacle of pvp combat?

Edited by Xavian-Cat
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One thing that could be great is to add back the fact that holding 'switch weapon' button makes you into full melee mode (manually block with right click and attack with left click) and simply use 'switch weapon' button to go back to current gun-melee. That may satisfy people that like to play full melee and as the same please people that like the new melee system.

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Now, I'm in the minority here (I use arrow keys and custom bindings), but this new melee update has kinda messed with how I play with melee. Before, when you could toggle your melee, and it replaced primary fire with the melee when you did it (atleast it's how I customized it), it made the melee combos involving blocking and movement and everything much easier. Now, with the recent changes, it's essentially all quick melee, and with how I start to run out of buttons, it makes melee very awkward to use, especially with blocking combos.

I get where you're going with the changes entirely and I do like it on that aspect, but I'd still like the option to toggle melee fully like it was before on the side too, for us that have more "niche" control schemes. Other than that, the effects and the feel of the melee in general have improved a lot!

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In the interest of balance, let's start with what I like:

- Switching between guns and melee is indeed smooth.

Now, for what I don't like:

-That switching between guns and melee is smooth doesn't matter to me, because I don't do it, nor have I ever intentionally channelled anything. I use guns and abilities, with a quick melee thrown in here and there to either dispatch a swarm or top off health from healing return. Or I would, if you hadn't taken away the ability to not have quick melee lock me into a combo I don't want to be in. I don't want to either get planted to the ground in some flashy animation series, or go careening into the void like some kind of deranged fidget spinner.

- The old combo-less quick melee was great for my "melee is not a focus, but it's there when I need it and it's fast and reliable" use case. The current system is not. And before anyone says it: Playing without a stance is not an option. First, the attacks are not the same as the combo-less quick melee with a stance equipped, and secondly having a stance equipped is tied to mod capacity. This could potentially be solved with a "disable combos" toggle. Yes I know, another toggle. I hate suggesting it as much as developers hate seeing it, sorry about that but in this case it would solve 95% of my problems with the system.

- Automatic blocking isn't always a good thing. There are times when you actually want to be able to choose to take the hits, like a rage / hunter adrenaline build.

- Holstering / sheathing animations being instant takes away value from the holsters I and others paid plat for, but that one is *way* below the lack of combo-less quick melee for me on the list of priorities.

TLDR; Some minor annoyances and a major one. Please let us quick melee users have a way to not be locked into combos again.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think enough has been said already on the topic :D. 

With much respect, please, reconsider some of the new changes. Target air slam is good, animation and effects are good, sounds are good. 

Controls are not crisp enough, no manual blocking is taking away from the game. Channel toggle only is hurting some of the folks.

'Spin to win'ers lose nothing. Those who like to have quick melee in their builds lose a lot. 

Edited by YazMatazO
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