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Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Guest
Posted (edited)

Block Combo continues to cry its soul away...

Luckily the weapons I use nowadays don't rely on it anymore.

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, -Bv-shaofutzer said:

Dear DE!

I saw your hotfix today, but that still didn't fix a problem of mine,

as you can see in this picture, I have a venka prime equped, but the weapon is currently not there, because im in my orbiter. However the radiation visual effect of the venka IS still floating under my hand, while the weapon is not there.

tCGzNSr.jpg

UPDATE:

valkyr prime talons display in a very WEIRD way in arsenal:

sRmhNQR.jpg

 

Edited by CMSRadiatioN

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The main problem of new melee battle system is that is a not updating, it's not ****** better - it's different. Just different. Step to side of DMC battle system and this is bad as possible. We not have manual block now. We not have comfortable combo system. We not have now normal animation of changing weapon between main\secondary and melee and that is step out of realism. We not have one button for attack and need to choosing between melee and shoot. Do you understand that? WE NEED CHOOSING NOW. This is oppositely that you tryed to do. And everyone who choosing melee feel bad, uncomfortable. I can't play that way. I can't play new event because i can't use new control system without pain. It feels broken now. My lovely game is ****** broken.

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I'm having serious issues with my controller. When I press B it will unholster the melee weapon and swing once in one motion, but after that I can't use the button anymore. No more swings from my weapon and it's pretty damn frustrating. Defaulted my controller settings and even checked to see if the key bindings were different. Nothing worked.

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Posted (edited)

The visual upgrades and the changes to the slam attacks ("death from above") are amazing, no complaints in regards to either of them on my end. 🙂 

Gun & Blade Flow:
Amazing work overall. On paper, the instant gun/blade switching and the combo resume "ups the tempo" during the fights, no need to pause and wait for holstering. 🙂 However, I'm missing the quick attacks from the old system (a little). A tap of the melee button puts my frame into full melee mode and I start doing combos-- some of which include "motion locks," paired with fancy acrobatics. I often find myself jumping over targets, because my muscle memory is still "wired" for the quick melee.

I'll give it some time and try to adjust to the changes.

Edited by Aldrr
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I've always found weapon switching to be way too slow for the fast paced combat in Warframe. With the quick switch (quick melee to melee/zoom to primary) this problem was solved.

However this renders the weapon switch button useless as it's switching animation is still as long as before. If I want to quick switch to primary I can just tap zoom real quick and I'm on rifle instantly.

There are two solutions:

- get rid of weapon switching animation

- show the animation but don't make it block using the weapon. As soon as the weapon is used, the animation is to be aborted (I would prefer this solution)

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Posted (edited)

There are some flaws in the implementation, but overall seems excellent:

- Melee and gunplay really do flow really well in the new system, effortlessly switching between shooting and slashing makes the combat feel a lot more dynamic. Now, some of this was already there with quick melee, but having access to the full potential of the melee weapon is a really nice addition. 

- I really appreciate the removal of the weapon switch delay and the need to press a key to switch to melee:

- The weapon switch delay was way to burdensome which causes many people to simply use quick melee because it is instant.

- Also greatly appreciate the removal of the switch to melee key, which significantly improves the flow in 2 ways. It decreases the delay in response time from when I want an action to happen to the action happening, as not pressing a button is inherently faster than pressing a button. It is also less restrictive on other controls, as needing to press the melee switch key means that finger cannot be somewhere else pressing another key which practically disables the key that finger was used for during the duration of that keypress.

- Auto blocking is also appreciated. Going into melee is inherently risky, so having damage reduction at least in the direction you're attacking is a good mitigation of some of that risk.

Now for some flaws to point out and suggestions:

- The new melee system fails to consider if you're carrying an item (Datamass, Power Cells, etc). Picking them up causes you to switch to secondary as usual. The problem happens when sometimes the game remembers your primary weapon and returns you to primary when you shoot causing you to drop the item.

- Aim glide could be contextual. If you have a melee weapon out, the game could let you glide in melee mode without pulling out your ranged weapons to allow for continued blocking. Shooting to bring out your ranged weapon is explicit enough I would think, whereas trying to aim glide might not mean someone wants to pull out their ranged weapon.

I greatly appreciate this addition and look forward to the complete implementation of the new system. When I started playing the game I did experiment with melee weapon stances and combos, they were fun. As I got further into the game however, I figured out that switching between them was way too slow and ended up just using quick melee where the melee attacks are instant and reliable; it hits immediately when I want to hit. This new implementation of the melee system allows me to enjoy the full breadth and depth of melee weapons again, as it conforms to the typical pacing of Warframe, fast and fluid.

Edited by veloSylraptor

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Alright, I'm reposting this as feedback but I originally posted this idea in general discussion. As a volt main and big fan of running through low level content swinging my orthos around like a blender, I'm sad that the entire quick melee system is gone. However, I'm not one to complain without a suggestion in mind, and in this case I have two. 

1. Create a stance mod that can be applied to any weapon that replaces the combos of that weapon with their old quick melee animations. This limits options in combat, but is entirely elective and gives a way to customize your load out on a per weapon basis. It would also come with the downside of preventing guaranteed procs that stances usually have, balancing out the benefit of unlimited quick attacks.

2. Use the old quick melee animations when attacking during a sprint. This could work similarly to slide attacks and aerial attacks, simply hold the sprint button instead of slide or jump when attacking. This just provides an additional contextual option in combat. I think it would improve the flow and look of melee combat, as it would entirely prevent the issue of losing momentum and being stuck in a slow combo while just trying to finish off an enemy or reposition yourself. (Bonus points if you let us cancel these combo animations DE pls.) Other benefits of this include the potential for separate damage balancing for sprinting attacks, plus it would act as an easy universal gap closer. All in all, I would much prefer this solution. 

I'm loving a lot of the changes, and if issues like this and the block glide concerns get ironed out this melee 3.0 will be perfect for me. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes finally melee 2.999999999999 feels so good!! but it also comes with flaws though. IMPOV, can we please cannot change to guns when using exalted weapons (exalted blade, talons, desert wind, etc) especially the ones that drains energy not including ivara because it does not drain energy when not firing. Yeah it's feels fluid because the name of this phase (flow) but it makes the warframe feels less badass or feels less rage mode. Imbalanced maybe? I know this feature isn't totally removed because mesa still cant change weapons. Also sometimes it is easy to forget about having exalted active because not really have a clear indicator. Just imagine that...

"OMG I have enough energy to summon my exalted blade!" 

*summons exalted blade with the badass summoning through the hand"

*presses button on mouse* pew pew pew with lato

*presses melee button* "my exalted blade will slice all of you puny muahahaha"

then pew pew pew with lato

Geddit? sorry for my bad justification but yeah it makes badass moment just disappears and then reappears over and over again aka not constant badass moment. Especially valkyr's when firing and melee makes me fatigue because of the screen tint changes. 🙂

Edited by Zed1419

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Posted (edited)

I don't really understand the complaints about auto blocking. Personally, I think that's one of the good things (maybe the only good thing) about this update. Manual blocking was clunky and unreliable, would constantly get cancelled as you jumped around, etc. It felt awkward to use to me. I think automatic blocking much better fits the fast pace of the game.

As far as I understand it, the complaints are just 1. about captura scenes, and 2. about losing energy while channeling. The former has already been resolved by allowing manual blocking when no guns are equipped. The latter is a problem, but I feel like it's a problem with the channeling system rather than the autoblocking system. Channeling is terrible in general and nobody seriously uses it outside of Life Strike, and that's why they're planning to rework it entirely with Melee 3.0. Channeling shouldn't make your energy disappear while you're blocking hits or slicing through a group of enemies. It's just silly, and that's where the problem is - not with autoblocking.

My main issue with this update is just the slow, sluggish, snail-pace melee combos that I have to use now instead of quick melee.

Edited by SteveCutler
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I want an old control scheme back. Quick melee and then go right back to weapon was awesome, why the f**k i need to push fire button to switch back and that it immediately fires it doesn't helps at all. It lacks style and it's not fluent. You can't melee channel with 1 mouse button, toggle is not a bad thing about it, but if you're used for 4 years on 1 mouse button to channel it, it kind of makes you angry 'cause it either fires weapon or uses melee if you switched on melee with fire weapon input. Give back block button and go somewhere with auto block. Aiming for ground is kind of cool, did not really tried it. New effects are kind of MEH, don't like them but i would get used to them.

Conclusion: Control scheme is now FUBAR for older players. For new players it might be good because they will be learning with it from the start and not after they've been using old scheme for 4 years.

Fix: Make an option to change back to old scheme for those who want. Call it Legacy or something and new one New Way or something.

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I am becoming increasingly irritated by the way while playing melee, I keep finding myself standing with my gun in my hand. previously when playing with a melee weapon, press F to select, and that's it, melee all day. Now it's impossible to stay like this, when jumping, rolling, all sorts of actions, re-equip your rifle/whatever.

This isn't 'flow', it's the opposite, it's breaking up actions with intrusions.

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Bringing this here from another thread: 

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  • -d1m0n-
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Please add "Hold to melee channel" keybinding ASAP (for PC mouse and keyboard). I used channeling in melee for a fraction of second every few seconds on my lifestrike excalibur build. Now that is totally unusable - not only you have to click twice as much as before, but also you completely lose track of channeling being on or off at any given moment. Channeling visual effects are completely overshadowed by other effects in the heat of battle. Before I knew that if i hold the button channeling is on, if i don't then it is off. Now it is a mess. Anyone please feel free to try Excalibur lifestrike build on any endgame content and see for yourself.

So one more time - please add "Hold to melee channel" keybinding ASAP.

Thank you!

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Posted (edited)

Further testing. Dispatch Overdrive works if channeling is toggled on. The exodia based on channeling seem to work whether channeling is toggled on or not. Using a primary or secondary toggles channeling off, so have to toggle it back on constantly if using other than melee.

Channeling as a toggle only is a bad idea. Auto blocking is a bad idea.

New melee is just plain bad. Less immersive, dumbed down and buggy. Revert manual blocking and its prior radius. Revert channeling from a toggle.

As others post, WHY NOT JUST INCREASE THE HOLSTER SPEED?

Edited by Buttaface
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HEADS UP FELLOW MELEE ONLY PLAYERS!!

Melee block button fix.

Step one: REMOVE all primary and secondary weapons.

Step two: enjoy

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Posted (edited)

My feelings about the update:

I use KBM controls, and my setup from melee 2.0 is 'E' and mouse wheel were both bound to melee AND quick melee. What I could do is run around and spin the mouse wheel for quick melee, and then use the E key for combo timing and charge attacks/throws. That distinction between charge attacks and quick attacks worked very well for me, and affects my discussion points.

1. I was most excited about the new targeted slam, but so far it is kind of awkward because you have to aim down at a certain angle regardless of your altitude. If you aim too high, you do the mid-air attack in front of you and get no benefit from slam radius, or you aim too low and unintentionally slam attack, killing your momentum. I feel that charge attack timing could solve the issue.

While in the air: tap melee for aerial attack, 1-2 sec hold melee for slam, 2-3 sec hold for shoot or throw (glaives and gunblades can still slam, sigma & octanis can throw or slam). Charging gives you time to aim your slam (e.g float briefly and turn around in mid air to change slam direction). If slam attack isn't based on aiming angle you don't need to worry about accidentally doing it wrong because you were aiming 1 degree too high or low. It also means you can do a slam attack while aiming up e.g up at an enemy on a stair case, or do an aerial attack while aiming down. As it is now, you need to look away from enemies to slam attack them unless they are way below you.


2. Auto blocking. After the changes, a lot of people have mentioned that you can't block while running backwards. I tried this myself just now, and I can see this isn't the case. Once you do a melee attack your weapon stays out until you aim or shoot again, and you will auto block attacks from enemies you are pointing the reticle at. It takes some getting used to but I can see how it works, and now I actually block stuff with ease instead of having to equip my melee weapon specifically to block. It just feels weird at first not having to press a button to block.

Where the new blocking system gets awkward:

- You need to have done a melee attack to bring out your melee weapon. If you never use the melee you will never auto block, even with a melee weapon equipped. As long as you are not shooting, reloading or charging a shot, you should auto block.

- If you are aim gliding and you do an aerial melee attack, you have to shoot or aim your gun to bring it back out. Usually you will be shooting at things below you, which means if you try to aim glide then aerial melee > shoot > aerial melee, you can accidentally slam attack and kill your momentum, because you will be shooting things below you, but need to aim up again to aerial melee.

- Some combos still rely on the redundant block button, which is now replaced by tapping the aim button (based on what I've read). This makes doing some combos really vertigo inducing especially if you have something with high% zoom like sniper rifles.

- You CAN technically glide block with your melee weapon, but you have to intiate your aim glide with the gun, then do a melee aerial attack without letting go of the aim glide button. If your finger slips just a little bit or if your mouse/controller is a bit dodgy, you will aim your gun again for a brief second and need to do another aerial attack to bring out your melee weapon while gliding.

- There is no indication anywhere that channeling is active, which means you might be unintentionally losing energy for each auto block.

Make auto blocking optional, keep the dedicated block button in.

Allow dedicated blocking even with a gun equipped.

 


3. Parry. Still kind of awkward since it relies on melee channeling, and there is no clear hud indicator to show that channeling is active.
It might be better as a riposte/counter to melee attacks e.g after auto-blocking enemy melee, have a small window for bonus damage on your next melee attack. The current parry system is less effective than spam attacking, and most enemies will just continue to shoot you in the face even when you stand right in front of them.

Large projectiles should be able to be parried into enemies. This includes bombard rockets, and stuff like opticor shots. There could be a parry mod which increase the damage of attacks parried into enemies, but based on the damage of your own weapon.

I believe parrying should not depend on channeling, and should either be built into auto blocking or based on good timing with the block button.
 

4. Channeling still does not feel useful, and the mods that exist for it are rarely useful on a weapon. It might make more sense if channeling was based on warframe mods e.g efficiency, strength, duration etc. I think you mentioned replacing it with a kind of 'devil trigger' type system? If so, the warframe stats suit that idea pretty well. AFAIK the only channeling mod that people use regularly is life strike (life strike would be a great aura).

I believe that existing channeling mods should be refunded into endo.

Edited by TheMostFrench
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(Copied from the general feedback megathread, since I posted yesterday on 3/8/2019 without knowing there was a specific one for "improved" melee).

I maintain my earlier position that in all aspects except for the addition of diagonal slam attacks and the visual/sound FX improvements; the new melee is a clumsy, half-self-performed downgrade over the earlier system. We can't melee exclusively, we can't get melee out without swinging it first, and despite today's earlier hotfix, blocking is now a clumsy toggle that stays continuously active unless you hit RMB again, as opposed to being held like it was before. All stance combos have been turned janky and awkward, we're forced into using our melee weapons in synch with our guns when I'd really prefer to aim and use them separately, and to add insult to injury the shooting of this "improved" system interrupts even exalted melee weapons. Nothing destroys the satisfying feeling of rampage Hysteria used to have more than the fact that if don't tap melee often enough, I resume randomly shooting my Aksomati. Restore the old separation of primary, secondary, and melee weapons; and if you really want the system to feel "more streamlined", than make toggling between weapon types with F key faster-acting than it was before (with tapping just cycling through all three) and give quick-melee attacks  better range, animations, and synchronization with shooting instead of removing melee mode altogether.

If you were able to patch the years-old delay before sprinting truly began when using left shift, then you can certainly manage to reprogram a faster toggle; instead of gutting the entire melee system to hand us an awkward, uninteresting, forcibly-fused-with-our-gunplay mess. I practically expect DE to announce the removal of the combo counter and its bonuses at this point. Quit treating the player base like we're all Devil May Cry players, let alone actually the sort of players who enjoy that franchise. When I heard of improvements to melee with a third system, I expected stat improvements to useless weapons like Fang Prime, and the development of stances that were more brutal and controlled in their animations as opposed to the usual overt flourish; I did not seek to have patched in, or even remotely desire, the removal of everything that actually made melee enjoyable. 

To this end, I took to Captura, with only various melee weapons equipped, to visualize my utter lack of desire to keep the supposedly "IMPROVED" system in-game.

7IvY3sN.jpg1gv9pTA.jpg6mGt2PF.jpgwXuLFz7.jpg75kmAQl.jpg

I can understand the intent to try and make the system more fluid, but the forced and permanent integration of melee as a side thought to ranged weapons has done the exact opposite of that; as has removing our ability to switch between all three weapon types and both utilize or pose with our melee exclusively. Not only have these changes taken the fun out of melee, they have ruined the capacity for most Captura with melee weapons.

 

Very important in spite all this criticism: I still highly value the fact you take the fact to interact with your playerbase and consider their feedback. It is my hope that you will see the not-insubstantial numbers of players that, like me, that consider this change to be awkward and unsatisfying; and restore melee to its old state, but with improved toggling speed so that it will be more "fluid" in exactly the same way that the forced integration of melee with ranged weapons is not. I highly value all your hard work as developers, artists, programmers, animators, and writers; but this is not the direction to go with melee changes. I can hardly tell what's going on anymore; the weird linking of slicing and shooting is giving me motion sickness; exalted melees know longer work properly and both flicker in seizure-inducing fashion if you RMB while also sometimes glitching out altogether; and worst of all, I can't simply equip melee all by its lonesome and hold it in my hands. This feels like a rubbish IoS game where the melee is auto-performed by the phone. The delightful feeling of actual being a "space ninja" has been reduced to "space thug with guns as the primary implement".

You are an incredible development team and I do hope you guys are still getting rest, but this just ISN'T the right change.

 

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I've had more time to talk with other players, and I think I have a better grasp of how the people around me are receiving it.

For players who actively use both guns and melee (as seems to be intended by DE), this update is great. Instant swaps and the control scheme mean the action never stops. Skilled players never have to stop killing.

But, there is a subset of players who primarily want to use one or the other, and this update isn't great for them. These players also seem to have a large overlap with players who WANT clunky animation delays and more committed combat states for the sake of "realism" and the visual aesthetic.

These are cornercases, but they are loud cornercases.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Sliv said:

Isn't it already doing it ?

 

Maybe I'm just really bad or smth but I can't seem to pull this off.

But if other people can do it then I guess its no big deal.

There are two more issues I'd like to point out though

1. Switching between your guns while holding your melee takes just as long as before, where you have to go through the animation of sheathing your melee and then unholstering your secondary/primary.

2. And I know I said this before but there's a huge delay between firing from a bow and attacking with melee.

Spoiler

The first clip shows how long it takes for me to switch from my secondary to my primary after pulling out my melee, as well as the delay between shooting a bow and using a melee. The second clip shows how long it takes to melee after a gun for comparison if the delay in the first clip doesn't seem as noticeable to others. I understand using the second fastest hitscan in the game probably doesn't look like the best comparison but trust me when I say it the fire rate doesn't make that big of a difference in comparison to a bow.

https://gyazo.com/407aebfe2ae908bce26b817eb9f36c8d

https://gyazo.com/0482e091bac60076d3274c1427f479ce

 

If the you guys don't notice the bow delay maybe its just a me thing. But I definitely think the time it takes to whip out my bow after meleeing with my grakatas is something worth pointing out.

DISLCAIMER: NO GRINEER WERE HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THESE CLIPS

Edited by StormRyder007

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Posted (edited)

First impressions, in all honesty I'm still 'getting used to' the changes.

Channeling weapons

  • could we have an icon to show it's active, it's not always easy to tell
  • Can you stop it from turning off when we swap to a gun or use an ability etc.  IE make the toggle an on/off switch because as it stands now it's an on switch with an auto disable when you do anything else.

Slam attacks

  • I kind of want a slider to adjust the angle where it sees something as a slam attack
  • Would like some sort of visual cue, maybe change the pointer shape, to say that we're in the 'slam attack' angle. 
  • Could maybe have a little help with hitting the targets, similar to how glaives work with their little bit of auto tracking. 
  • It doesn't always go where I think it's going to go

Weapon switching and auto blocking

  • I like the faster switching, just wish the pistol/rifle switching got a buff to... not going to waste a mod slot on weapon swap speed mods when we have this rework.
  • I miss blocking manually, especially when aim gliding.. I keep doing it 'automatically' and end up swapping weapons....
  • I kind of wish we had an option for an improved version of the old melee system (call it legacy mode), where we kept the old system but it had faster switching when we pressed the button to swap weapons.  Many of us assigned a mouse side button (I know I did) to swap weapons quicker.  
  • I haven't tested fully but feel auto blocking affects mods like adaptation, hunter adrenaline and rage negatively.  While this new system is more fluid we've lost access to an element of control that can impact certain builds.  For example rage/hunter adrenaline builds where we need to take damage for energy and we'd just stand there taking damage without blocking.
Edited by LSG501
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Posted (edited)

Now that phase one has been implemented, I am having an issue with Glaive weapons;

After throwing the Glaive/Falcor/Serata/Orvius,  I am not able to explode the Glaive  in air and have it return as I was able to do prior to Melee 3.0 Phase 1.
I have tried different methods such as alt fire, and pressing the melee button while its in air and yet this does not seem to work. However the only method I have found to work thus far is duel wielding my glaive with a 1handed side arm.

 

Update: after messing around in the settings I learned that my keybindings had gotten messed up. after reverting my keys to default, everything seems to be working fine now.

Edited by Ghastly.Hollows
Solved issue.

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Having given mostly negative feedback for nightwave recently, I probably better speak up when I have positive things to say too ..

There are clearly some bugs and interface issues, but I am really enjoying melee 2.nines so far. 

Combos are now accessible without a slow weapon swap. Stances now matter all the time. 

Life strike is much more accessible. (Please don't nerf it too much going forward ..) 

Archwing dismount is much less clunky. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 2 heures, StormRyder007 a dit :

Maybe I'm just really bad or smth but I can't seem to pull this off. 

You just need to release ctrl ("hold to crouch" key for me) just after hitting E (melee key).

Once crouch is released, your attack will follow the camera. At this point, you can even let go of your keyboard until the attack is complete 😉

Edited by Sliv
orthographe

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, veloSylraptor said:

Aim glide could be contextual. If you have a melee weapon out, the game could let you glide in melee mode without pulling out your ranged weapons to allow for continued blocking. Shooting to bring out your ranged weapon is explicit enough I would think, whereas trying to aim glide might not mean someone wants to pull out their ranged weapon

but that would make it impossible to quick scope/shoot while jumping and carrying a melee weapon.

Solution: decouple gliding and scoping by enabling glide through holding jump.

 

 

Also: whats the difference now between "switch gun" and "switch weapon" button?

Edited by supernils

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4 hours ago, Sarulas said:

1. Create a stance mod that can be applied to any weapon that replaces the combos of that weapon with their old quick melee animations.

I have a better idea: give back the old quick-melee animations if you melee while SPRINTING.

A lot of the complaints about melee stances since Chimera have been that the root motion changes cause you to lock-in-place; this is more palatable if you also give players a “quick cycling melee loop for a full-speed run” and frankly, the only people who are missing quick melee right now seem to be players who relied on these loops (polearm and nunchaku come to mind). Nobody seems to mind the loss of quick melee on bullet dance gunblades, for instance.

So, if sprinting, you get the old full-speed run quick-melee, and if walking/standing, you get the existing stance combos. For weapons/stances where the quick melee is overridden by the main combo (e.g. Tempo Royale) have sprint-melee not do anything.

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