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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)

Please just let us use the old system if we want. A "legacy" setup or whatever. Quick melee was so much smoother and more effective on some weapons. I also had melee channel bound on left click and now obviously I can't do that. I also can't aim glide in melee. I honestly don't understand what the point of this change was. On the old system, if I wanted to use melee with combos, I press one key and that's it. If I want to use quick melee I press a different key. This worked perfectly fine, and it was satisfying to go full melee like a badass. 

Why would you take away quick melee? Sparring weapons are virtually unusable now with no quick melee.

Again, please give us the option of using the old system.

The only thing I like about it is the aimable ground slams.

Edited by doughboy12323
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dragonseth07 said:

For players who actively use both guns and melee (as seems to be intended by DE), this update is great. Instant swaps and the control scheme mean the action never stops. Skilled players never have to stop killing.

 
 
 

It is NOT great for polearm or staff users that actively use both guns and melee. Polearm and staff quick attack melee were extremely mobile and more useful than combos since you could control the speed and direction of the fighting with continuous precise movements that did not lock you into animations that cause you to either stop and not reach your target(or beyond it) or jump over them. And since, without animation locks, the only thing that slowed down attacks was attack speed you had a faster TTK over larger areas with quick attacks. All while easily able to fire your gun any time since it was still equipped.

It is NOT great for speed Volt melee with them either. Now, the melee animations cause Volt to stutter step and he can no longer sprint while using polearms or staves.

Edit: And apparently not for nunchaku and maybe some other weapons I haven't touched since maxing.

Edited by Ventricle8
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There’s some bug when I connect xbox and ps4 pad... 

If I connect them both, I can’t switch walk to run(press L3). I must disable ps4 confit in Steam or disconnect the Ps4 pad.

There are no respond when I press L3 and R3.

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I personally don't like the direction where these changes go, I don't mind the smoother transition between melee and gunplay but there are some things that feel way more awkward than comfortable

So 1st of, the fact that quick melee automatically equips melee is decent but has a bit clunky aspect to it, as before quick melee acted mostly as failsafe if we had to reload the gun, but now having to go back to gunplay manually is quite awkward

Another thing is the fact that we need more buttons to control melee weapons now before when we had this separate mode for melee we could simply map all actions for the same buttons all gun actions but now we need more buttons included  and it's not really comfortable to map it out and  honestly unnecessarily complicated, and this going to be a problem if the channeling going to remain, even if it'll change it's natural form what it is now to what it's planned to be in full 3.0

Next thing is that several exalted melees freak out with new system, the bug with Excals blade, or fact that when we put out Valkyrs claws  we lose immunity even if it still channels energy, these show that removing this separation of 2 types of combat has a negative impact on abilities that were build based on it.

 

Well what I would like to see isn't exactly just revert to 2 types of combat from the previous version but some sort of middle ground, with separation still in place but keeping much smoother way to switch between them like that we need more than just single quick melee strike to switch to the fully equipped melee weapon, but not much more, maybe like one full base combo or like holding quick melee button after 1st strike, so far I have a lot of concerns about current direction and for most of the time it rather than upgrade to 3.0 feels more like return to 1.0 with keeping stances

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28 minutes ago, Sliv said:

You just need to release ctrl ("hold to crouch" key for me) just after hitting E (melee key).

Once crouch is released, your attack while follow the camera. At this point, you can even let go of your keyboard until the attack is complete 😉

My. God.

You've made a maiming strike nikana, very, very happy.

One last thing I've noticed is that without a manual block we're essentially relying on auto parry to avoid knockdown, and while my power drift is reliable enough for me I can't speak for others. I'm sure most would agree that they'd rather not rely on chance to block ancient hooks, MOA stomps and eximus shockwaves. In fact I don't know if its possible to do this without aux mods.

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Posted (edited)

Alright I wished it was that easy but apparently it isn't (by the looks of your decisions and actions), however it's still fairly simple to understand. 

I'll start like this

You are getting things wrong because you just gutted the mobility of the last fluid weapon type we had, polearms................... You will see what I exactly mean later on. 

DE, @[DE]Danielle you have to understand that alot of people just want and wanted to exclusively use their melee weapons, this quick swapping thing did nothing for the core gameplay of melee, it actually just speaks volumes about its lack of efficiency by itself, it should not only be viable because you have the option now to quick swap to your busted primary and secondary weapons.
Melee needs to be good just by itself. 

The reason why most people have always opted to the exclusive use of quick melee is because most melee combos/stances are just too clunky and erratic to use, however that option is just dead now. The quick melee hits you used to perform were replaced by these clunky combos I refer to that no one likes to use, they just kill any pace and momentum you had due to their lack of good transitions between animations. 
In fact, it's also another reason why slide spamming became so popular (Maiming Strike), it's just much more fluid in general, no awkward pauses after finishing the animation unlike with most melee stances. 

Have a good look at Tempo Royale, more specifically August Mesto (Block key combo), that should be the golden standard for melee combos. 

So there you go
Melee combos/stances need to be good enough by themselves. Committing yourself on using them should be rewarded much better than just quick hitting melee. 

Fluidity>Range>Damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quick Swapping to your guns 

Edited by Aeron216
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After playing with the melee changes a bit more and really trying to give them a chance, I've now pretty much completely stopped using melee for two reasons:

1) Lack of a dedicated melee mode. Basically, I have to "re-enter" melee mode every time I used aim glide or just accidentally hit the RMB because I'm used to being able to block. The "use primary fire to attack" is a nice idea but it doesn't solve anything as I am constantly forced out of melee mode so I might as well just use a different key to melee attack. Imagine if jumping switched to your secondary weapon, that's how annoying this is. If I want to do a longer mission largely melee (for example, I liked doing arbitrations in melee and only took out drones with rifles), I am swapping in and out of melee mode 100 times or more unless I actively try to avoid using parcour. That cannot possibly be the intention here.

2) Autoblocking. As if the constant swapping in and out of melee mode was not bad enough, I am now also no longer in control about when blocking drains my energy (due to channeling) and I constantly have to turn channeling on and off to avoid that. Again, this takes away the decision I actually want to make (block or get hit) and forces me to mess with something that is unrelated (channelling on/off) as a workaround. Quite often, I don't actually want to block because the attack isn't going to deal much damage or I wanted to lose some life to get energy back via Rage anyway. Now, instead of reacting to the few attacks that are worth blocking, I am reacting to the numerous attacks that are not worth blocking, which feels more annoying than rewarding as it used to.

Either way, the lack of control over what happens has effectively ruined melee for me.

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Prior to phase 1, when dual wielding glaives and secondary weapons, you could reload your secondary while charging the power throw with the glaive. With phase 1, you are switched into melee mode while charging so you are unable to reload the secondary. 

I've been having an immense amount of fun with a Tron themed Nezha and orvius because of the fantastic feeling of fluidity. The reload interruption with the power throw, however, remains as the single interaction between the two which disrupts that flow. 

Thank you so much for the work you are doing with melee. It has truly revitalized Warframe for me.  

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I like the changes so far with some exceptions:

Aim gliding: I don´t bother too much about the block/auto block changes but I miss the ability to aimglide with melee. I use this quite a lot and have to switch to melee via "quick melee" every time I use aim glide. That´s a problem because I use lmb "primary fire" for my melee attacks usually not "quick melee".

Channel + auto block: Energy consumption is quite difficult to manage. I know channeling is suposed to be changed but can channel block be a normal block without energy cost meanwhile?

Alternative keybinding suggestion:

"secondary fire" in melee modus can be used for blocking and aimgliding

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I understand how these changes can be helpful to many players, but I miss my quick melee. That was the only way I ever used my melee weapon because I really don't like the flow of attacks when equipped alone. Now I have to deal with that problem all the time. All the other changes seem fine to me, but it'd be nice if we were at least given a choice between the new system and the old. That way, each player can fight however they choose. I understand that DE wants people to adapt, but after years of muscle memory with the old system, I have found myself struggling to relearn the new basics of fighting, so I hope they take this into consideration.

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I just did a melee-only run, and noticed an issue with the new manual blocking thing. Whenever I try to aim glide with only a melee weapon, I get locked into the aim glide permanently until I land - there's no way to turn it off!

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After a few hours of playing, I like the new system! The quick switching and aimed ground slams feel great, however I have noticed a few curbs that interrupt the flow and control.

First, when using only a primary and melee weapon to do missions that require you to hold an object, you can no longer use aim glide without dropping the object. Using rmb to aim glide forces you to change to primary, causing you to drop the object that you were holding. I would like to see the auto switching function restrict primary weapons while holding an object so that the object can not be dropped through aiming.

Second regarding channeling, I use life strike on all my weapons, and as such, can not afford to channel at all times due to energy issues. While the quick changing makes life strike more accessible, the toggle channel does not. It becomes quite difficult to determine if you are channeling or not. It was much easier to channel for just a single attack with the hold to activate channeling. I would like to see an option for toggle channel, similar to the ones we have for aiming and crouching. If not possible I would at least like to see a notification on the buff bar to notify the player as to weather they are actively channeling or not.

The last curb that I have noticed is when playing melee only. Because there is no firearm to switch to, the traditional 'manual' block takes its place, however if feels like a toggle block, and thus does not allow you to end aim gliding without attacking. I have seen several post regarding the removal of manual blocking, and assume that any solution that has to do with that will fix this more minor problem.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aeron216 said:

you have to understand that alot of people just want and wanted to exclusively use their melee weapons

Exactly, 100% in every regard. This is the shortest and most eloquent summation about everything wrong about the new system. I enjoyed using my guns on their own merit, and gunplay in Warframe is also fun; but I still prefer to use them and melee separately. I am now permanently linked with my guns; eliminating that playstyle, and with it the fun that melee had for me. This all sets a worrying trend of copying mechanics from poorly-thought-out Asian MMOs and mile-a-minute seizure-fests like "bullet hell" games. 

Everything introduced with Buried Debts other than directional ground slams has been the opposite of "streamlining" melee. It has removed my favorite playstyle entirely, broken 2/3 of all stances' combos, and eliminated the delightfully visceral feel of whaling on Grineer with a greatsword as I forgo my rifle entirely until I feel like using it again. On top of all this, Hysteria, Exalted Blade, Iron Staff, and Desert Wind now get interrupted by the "improved" mechanics and randomly stop channeling if you don't continuously hit whatever your melee bind is; destroying the entire purpose of using Exalted melee weapons. The whole fun was that they overrode our current weapons as a super-weapon until we could no longer sustain channeling, and that was also viscerally satisfying. Hysteria in particularly now has epilepsy-inducing flickers between its natural color correction and the game's normal graphics, and the most vital and fun part of Valkyr's play experience has been utterly ruined.

TL;DR: Bring the old system back, but make the former effect of mods like Speed Holster simply become the new inherent speed of weapon switching, so the toggling is quick and convenient. Remove the swap-speed mods altogether after making this change, then give us USABLE melee combat and refund any Endo/Credits spent on the now-irrelevant swap-speed mods. Actually heed the feedback of players that really do like using melee all on its lonesome, and NOT the players who always used melee as an afterthought and spammed slide attacks.

The above paragraph is, was, and will be the better solution to streamlining melee and making action faster; and at present there is no reason to equip a full set of weapons at all. I either have to equip ONLY melee if I want to fight with melee exclusively, or I bring only my guns; because melee no longer works with the mechanics that were actually fun, unless I have my melee weapon equipped, AND ONLY IT EQUIPPED on me.

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne
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I'm finding a warframe/weapon combo painful now. I love using Valkyr prime/Hirudo and I have the mod brutal tide on it. However now whenever I use quick melee and try to punch an enemy twice, I go into a ridiculous long chain punch/kick combo that sends me flying past them. This used to happen when I had the Hirudo equipped but I could bypass it by using quick melee. Now I can't as quick melee completes a weapon swap. Going to try Grim Fury and see if that works better. Other than that example seems to work fine. Not sure if I'm sold on it though.

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Channeling is toggle-only and under MMB - discourages tactial use of one/few attacks at the time in favor of just switching into channeling mode

Automatic blocking is intrusive and annoying - takes away player's choice and cripples use of sword & shield specific mods

Can't perform RMB combos without swapping to firearm right after - takes away player's choice

If equipped with only melee, manual blocking locks you into blocking/aim glide position - makes any precise maneuvers impossible if you run melee only

Groundslam VFX leaves elemental stain even if you triggered off elemental VFX on melee - inconsistent, making it non elemental cracks would fix this little issue

Why not give full combos and utilitiy of melee to gunplay just by allowing it instead of quick melee, and leave equipping melee by holding F as it was in Melee 2.0?

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the way blocking is implemented now is a problem. it is impossible to use charge attacks if facing a mob of enemies because the block will keep triggering over charge attacks even if melee button is held, plus the aim glide/block problems mentioned above.

i'd prefer if DE gave us the option of choosing which melee control scheme we like. while i don't know how they will change melee combos and channeling (i actually invested a fair bit in a stealth channeling build [enemies killed while channeling disappear, leaving no corpses behind to alert remaining enemies] and i like certain combos in certain stances e.g. vulpine mask and seismic palm that trigger finishers), i hope they give us a choice. if melee 3.0 dumbs melee down to just spamming e, then i don't want it. i'd rather tolerate the 1-2 second animation to swap weapons of the old system if i can keep tactical use of combos and channeling.

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Posted (edited)

Overall I'm enjoying the changes. I was a LMB melee mode player and after trying the new system with the toggle on I've actually decided on new key binds instead. Using mouse wheel down for melee attack in this new system has worked out well for me so far. Using aim for combos and the auto-blocking feels weird still, but I don't think that it's necessarily worse than the old way. Enemy slams are auto-blocked when holding a melee and sometimes we're sent airborne in a block-glide which is kind of strange to experience. These kinds of quirks are interesting to me.

The effects are crazy. After some more adjustments to graphics settings I'm at this place now where the game looks quite different amazing. It's a more visceral experience. The fissures in the event hit my frame rate a bit but everywhere else it's top knotch. I know a lot of people are having a tough time with this transition.

Maybe add another toggle in the options for the old block mechanics? If you're holding melee then RMB blocks and auto-blocking is disabled.
edit: I do feel for the quick meleers in the comments. I'm just not sure I want to go back to using a button to full switch to melee. I want to know what else is coming with the full melee 3 release. Quick melee wasn't exactly bad and a quick fire weapon would make that system a lot better. This seems like a big issue here so I'd like to see it explored further.

Edited by Slimspadey101
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Posted (edited)

Before I begin just a short disclaimer: These opinions I express are not solely my own but the opinions and suggestions of many players, including my friends in-game, we all wish DE can read these concerns as it deeply effects the core mechanics of gameplay as of update 2.4.4. Thank you. 😉

@[DE]Danielle

Current Issue(s) with Melee Update Phase 1.0(2.4.4.):

1. Freedom of Choice, and Options - Players no longer have more options to conduct in a particular style of combat, instead [Melee Weapon Switch] & [Ranged Weapon Switch] hotkeys have now been obsolete, due to [Melee Switch Key] being removed, and manual block being removed. These new mechanics are great, but they should be added in-addition to the current set of system in combat to enhance the gameplay, they would be more fluid as a result because the mechanics would work in tandem. Instead of the current system we suggest having more options instead, e.i. Block Option: [Manual - Set Hotkey] or [Aimed Auto], and Weapon Swap: [Melee & Ranged - Set 2 Hotkeys] or [Free-Form - Set 1 Hotkey]. This would allow for greater customization of the way we play this game, as blocking is essential to the gameplay and some players will feel having autoblock as catering to the "needy" and making gameplay "too easy".

2. Stances - As of update 2.4.4. there is no longer melee or ranged stance, however, this is not progressively connecting the movesets, e.i. when gliding, the default stance is currently ranged, this needs to change. The stance during air glide by the player should be determined by the weapon they currently have selected right before the player commenced the glide. As of current update, this desperately needs to change for glide attacks have no "flow" and destroys the synergy between ranged, and melee. When gliding and bullet-jumping, the current stance system turns melee into a secondary weapon, because we can never wield it.

3. Charged Attacks - The way charge attacks is being implemented also raises a lot of issues in terms of customization, referring to the above topic of Freedom of Choice. Many players feel the the way Charged Attacks should play needs to change back, but me and my friends think it is better if you give us more options. e.i. Charge Attack Option: [Hold - Set Hotkey] or [Toggled - Set Hotkey], this way we can have one or the other, giving more options is always encouraged and embraced by almost all gaming communities, and this would satisfy the majority of players, and will not truly effect the way DE envisions their game's style.

 

Positive Point(s) for the new mechanics introduced:

1. Effects - VFX, SFX are much more visceral and adds to immersion, kudos to [DE team] for making this game look so much more beautiful, and on par in terms of performance hit, my machine speaking personally, had barely noticeable drops in FPS. (GTX 1070)

2. Melee Mechanics - Aimed Slams are the perfect addition to melee combos, and adds flavor to the visceral combat and feel of Warframe's melee weapons., backstabs are also much more rewarding in terms of how it feels and sounds.

 

Closing Statement: I, Zycon and many of my friends would just like to express how much we appreciate DE for making this update, there are lots to be done, you have our gratitude for the efforts you all take in caring and reading our comments, and sharing them with your staff. Thank you kindly once again DE. 😄

Edited by ZyconXSC
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+1 to polearm stance issues (and any other weapon types). We used Quick Melee specifically to avoid the polearm stances because the animation locks that stop your movement do not belong in Warframe's combat system. We were already gladly giving up whatever multipliers and other statuses that the stance attacks gave us, and we all wish to continue to do so.

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Posted (edited)

We need either a revert or an option to toggle and use the old control scheme.

The aimable ground slams and graphic effects are the only potential upsides but the downsides make the game feel so much like riding a bike with triangle shaped wheels that I can't tell if I like it or not.

Not being able to glide without zoom by having the melee out as well as not being capable of blocking while gliding is a huge problem. Not being able to to just use the short noncombo of quick melee without the hard movement lock on animation is no good either.

I don't WANT to switch my weapons except when I tell the game specifically to do so. I don't want it on any kind of combined function with anything.

The game went from feeling smooth with a good flow to clunky and pretty much unplayable for people like me who mostly used the melee over gunplay anyway. 

Edit in: I think the worst part to me about this is that the INTENT was stated to make the game flow better but it does the exact opposite. Not to mention having a game I've spent a couple hundred bucks on by now become something I can no longer really enjoy the feel of.  

Edited by Sikelh
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Posted (edited)

the auto blocking is getting annoying in some cases, getting stuck in a corner being flung back by shield lancers, or the multi knockdowns in the profit taker. being knocked down once, then avoiding the other KD hits to jump out of the way was a lot better

ALSO 
with archgun out if you accidentally melee, your Archgun is gone and now on cooldown - really annoying.

Edited by Vesiga
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I generally just have one gripe with the new "gun and blade flow" system. As a player who like to melee with mb 1 and 2, i was pleased to see that the option to "melee with fire weapon input (hereafter MWFBI)" was added. However, there is just one tiny problem with this option. Every time I go MWFBI, mb 2 switches me back to primary. I can't use combos that include mb 2, or even glide while airborne, without being switched. Am I doing something wrong? Keybinds? Help would be greatly appreciated.

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I think my biggest complaint about Phase 1 is that it doesn't make a statement like "yes, we are trying to make melee more enjoyable and useful but we're doing it one step at a time". Instead of offering improvements to even basic things things like mobility or blocking, Phase 1 offers a stripped down version of a melee system that was already struggling to remain relevant. The result is that melee no longer feels like a weapon you're supposed to rely on. It feels like a support tool for ranged combat.

What happened to the stylish, interesting and more mechanically complex Melee 3.0 we saw a last year? It was a prototype and yet it already seemed to offer many of the basic improvements Sword Alone was in dire need of. Improvements like the ability to move seamlessly while attacking regardless of the direction. Or the addition of a heavy attack button that could have increased the depth of the system. Or the adjustments made to rolling that would have brought it one step closer to being actually useful in combat.

Seriously, what happened to all that?? Why is Phase 1 all about making melee less interesting and less complex? How is this supposed to be the starting point for a better melee system when it's entirely focused on making melee suit ranged combat? I simply cannot see it.

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I hate the fact i gotta quick melee to bring my melee weapon out why not let us keep the switch weapon button

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You made it easier for me to enter melee mode.  I appreciate that.  Especially as a zenistar user, not having to worry about stance to throw the disk is very helpful.

But why do you make it so hard for me to stay in melee mode?  Primary fire, glide, what used to be my channeling button, and what used to be my block button ALL now exit melee mode.  And this frustration is compounded by the fact that channeling is a toggle now.  Which doesn't always activate.  And turns off when you switch to gun and back.  And has only small glow effect that's easy to miss in all the spark-flying visual confusion of melee combat to indicate whether it's active.

Please, please, please give me an option to go back to legacy mode.  I would happily trade the time it takes to holster and draw in favor of actually being able to tell whether Life Strike is going to activate on the hit it needs to.

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