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AnoDarkrai

Patch 24.4.0 - Mesa's Peacemaker not working anymore as intended

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8 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

I will relay this back to the team. Thank you for the feedback.

 

2 hours ago, Kherae said:

reading that response from Bear really disappointed me...and so do all the people who think it's only mesa. no exalted weapons trigger arcanes, now. sure, they still benefit, but...look at how long the arcanes last, and how long changing into and out of exalted abilities takes...it's just...bad design.

What Kherae said seems to be true.  Was messing around with Excalibur's exalted blade and couldn't get it to proc arcane ultimatum, I can't get Ivara's Artemis bow to proc arcane rage anymore. You have to now turn off your exalted weapon, proc the arcane with normal weapons and then turn it back on, every single time you want the arcane to proc. Every exalted weapon user who uses arcanes to buff their weapon got affected by this change.

I agree with Kherae, this feels really awful to constantly be switching on and off your exalted weapon in the middle of the battle to proc your arcane. Please DE, don't nerf everybody across the board, reconsider this change and give it back to everybody including Mesa.

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😞 I was wondering why suddenly Titania's razorwing wasn't proccing Arcane Velocity anymore.

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10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

With Peacemaker might be a point, but what about all the other exalted abilities? If I'm being honest you could remove Wukong from the roster at this point since there are even less reasons to play him now, if the problem is Peacemaker why not just nerf its fire rate?

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10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

And that enhances the game, how?

All you've done is add a perfectly good arcane to the pile of arcanes no one cares about because they're outclassed by two or three top choices. If this is your feeble attempt at tuning down an ability's power level, you're only screwing over the players that have invested time, resources, and money to make the ability powerful by forcing exceptions and inconsistency into the game's mechanics, and the game is worse off for it. You are literally reinforcing the meta and punishing build diversity.

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I am a Mesa main so I know I will be biased in this post. I feel like this change is unnecessary. Arcanes are supposed to give us that extra edge. Mesa's regulators already require line of sight to work, which is a step down compared to other warframes with lots of damage such as saryn or volt. 

There already is some balancing for Mesa's regulators by having certain enemies not being able to be targeted by the regulators. For example, capture targets and especially the new raknoids that drop the coolant for the event. 

I know we are able to proc arcane velocity with normal weapons, and then press 4 and go to work, but that is taking steps back at what DE is trying to achieve right now. DE is striving for seamless gun and melee interactions, but now the interaction between normal weapons and exalted weapons is going to be (in my opinion) clunky because of shooting a gun for crits, switching to regulators and firing for however long the arcane is active for, then switch back and redo the entire process all over again. Not to mention the energy inefficiency that will occur because you have to switch back and forth. 

What grinds my gears the most is it seems like this was a bug initially. It was not in the patch notes at all, and [DE]Bear had to confer with the team on what to do about this situation. Then they come out and say that this will stay because regulators are overpowered. So what would've happened if the recent update didn't break the exalted weapons activating arcanes? Would everything in the future be the same as the past? Or was there actually discussion on making this change in a more official capacity?

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So instead of deciding to do your job and fix your bug, you just go "meh" it's now a feature.
Nice job as always sweeping things under the rug.

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Seconded, this should have been fixed. Basically anyone who farmed an arcane velocity set for Mesa got the shaft on this unintentional bug turned nerf.

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2 hours ago, Devayoni said:

So instead of deciding to do your job and fix your bug, you just go "meh" it's now a feature.
Nice job as always sweeping things under the rug.

It does feel that the real reason is that they just don't want to fix it and now it is a feature.  They already admitted it was a mistake and not the result of any planning that created this. So now another arcane is pointless because of it.   And in turn more frames will have less variety in their builds. *slow clap*  Let's just hope that other industries don't start cutting corners and labeling errors as features.. like your doctor or the chap that built your car.  *shrugs*

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13 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

I see two problems here.

First: Becoming an incarnation of the "It's not a bug, it's a feature" meme. Seeing a bug in your game causing unintended changes in game mechanics, then deciding it's there to stay. I mean, come on. It's a joke guys, we don't actually want devs to start doing it. Also, it's almost like you didn't want to put the effort to nerf Peacemaker but were glad when the chance fell on your lap.

Second: What of the folks who put time and effort farming Velocity or even the ones who spent Platinum on it? Feels like kind of a middle-finger to them doesn't it?

With that said and the points made by other people, can we please reconsider this decision?

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I'm sure this has been brought up before and I haven't read the previous pages, but:

  • Fixed Arcanes working inconsistently on Exalted Abilities (Excalibur’s Exalted Blade, etc) or Weapon Abilities (Titania’s Razorwing, etc).

So which one is it? Was Arcanes working with Exalted Weapons a bug or not? Especially when you specifically referred to it as a 'fix' just a year ago.

Also, the butterflies from Razorwing can still proc Arcanes, but Dex Pixia can't. So where's the consistency with this 'bug'?

I'm trying my best to be constructive but I've got nothing. Seriously, make up your god damn mind. This honestly feels like they just cashed in on Mesa's PA so they're now comfortable with nerfing her and affecting all Exalted Weapons in the process. And I sure hope that ain't the case.

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Literally just bought 6 arcane velocities... then found this post... FML.

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Just wanted to point out that since the Mainline update that even procing Arcane Velocity by another pistol DOES NOT effect the fire rate of Mesa's Peacekeepers what so ever so if DE wants to make this bug now a feature of that Arcane's don't activate from exalted weapons but say that a Arcane proc will still enhance an exalted weapon at least make sure that the proc WILL actually work with the weapon or better yet just put it back the way it was as please

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Well this is absolutely ridiculous! 

So let me get this straight.. 

In the beginning velocity didn't work with PM and was considered a "bug". Then you (DE team) fixed it so it would work "as intented". And only now a YEAR later, right when Mesa Prime Access is conveniently coming to an end; it's bugged again, but NOW the bug is staying as a "bug made feature?!" Because PM is to strong with it? 

What kind of underhanded convoluted arbitrary crap is this?!

 tenor.gif

Not ok! Vary disappointed with this extremely shady change.

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On 2019-03-08 at 8:03 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey hey,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I don't have an answer for you just yet, but we are investigating what's going on here.

We'll keep you posted as soon as we find out more.

EDIT as of 3/12/19:

-Bear

Ok, but what about other exalted abilities? Are they over the top too? Excalibur's Exalted Blade can't trigger Arcane Fury anymore. Edited patch notes mention only Peacemaker.

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On 2019-03-08 at 5:03 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey hey,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I don't have an answer for you just yet, but we are investigating what's going on here.

We'll keep you posted as soon as we find out more.

EDIT as of 3/12/19:

-Bear

DE Bear: "Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this."
 

So it was a bug at first, changed a YEAR ago to work with PM as "intended" and only now convenienly bugged again right when Mesa Prime Access is ending, but now the bug is staying?! 

I call this a big BS Balance Update. Why are you guys from DE not nerfing Peacemaker as a whole instead of completely cutting down the diversity of building around a warframe?! This will just simply make her less diverse of choosing between the Arcanes. Right now the only option would be for her Avenger, Aegis Grace and Guardian. So basically like 95% of Warframes.
Wow, such customisation possibilities thank you DE!!! (sarcasm)

The biggest reason for this change I see is for the Money. It got changed back then to work this way. Guess what, Mesa Prime Access came out to purchase. Now as it has been sold out enough guess what nerfing that Warframe to make the next Prime Access a bit more 'viable' huh? So once again a bug became a feature. I honestly can not believe that this has been a bug in the first place. I just can not.

This will also make her feel way more cluncy to play with as you need now to constantly switching back and forth to make arcane velocity even viable. It's just not worth it anymore.

Isn't Mesa allready a niche pick as more and more enemies can't be targeted from peacemaker anyway (mostly the most important enemies). You also need to be in line of sight to be capable of doing damage as for comparison Volt and Saryn do not reguire this. 

I will honestly stay back from Mesa now and stick more into Saryn again as she seems the better warframe suiting to do it's job killing everything in a wide AOE rather than Mesa does plus she doesn't require a damn Arcane.

With all honest respect DE. This is just laziness from its finest. I was expecting more of you guys. This is just unhealthy. Make it work again and nerf peacemaker as a whole instead. 

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My take is that the the exalted weapons with arcanes take a lot of time or plat to balance and make one of our frames viable to do content that those of us have built up the resources and time ingame tend to do.  Removing the synergy is just is a slap in the face to the effort and resources we have put into the game since my feeling it makes those arcanes worthless since there is maybe one other frame without an exalted that I might consider using it on.  Really what is the point of arcanes if they are deactivated?  The place I typically use the ones specifically mentioned is on Titania and Mesa for the exalted weapons to counter tough opponents.  It will make index, plague star events, etc. so much more difficult and I contend it was not overpowered in context of what it was often used for; besides aren't we supposed to feel like powerful space ninjas not gimped weaklings?

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Bad move long term it make all but 3 arcanes (Grace,Guardian and Energise) worthless.

It also strange how all exalted weapons can no longer proc arcanes yet Titania Razorwings still can.

If this was a nerf to PM because "it cranks it too 11" does this mean frames like saryn, octavia, equinox etc are gonna be nerf be cause they can surpass the effectiveness of PM?

 

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I don't ever post here, but I'd also like to just jump in and voice my disappointment and my concern with how the design team is handling these balances. This is a pretty big bug that affects things other than Mesa's Peacemaker, and simply calling it a balance feature and sweeping it under the rug seems lazy and detrimental. 

If you want to make Peacemaker weaker, you should do it directly to the skill and not target an end-game item that sees 0 use elsewhere. As others have pointed out, nerfing the arcane means you're just further limiting the choices of arcanes we can use with Mesa. That said, I have a big objection to nerfing Peacemaker at all. Warframe to me has always been the game where min/maxing and getting end-game mods leads to insane synergies. This action takes that away and is a step towards blandness.

I hope the design team revisits this decision, because this isn't how you balance live games. I strongly suggest reverting this decision and make exalted weapons interact with arcanes normally, while evaluating how you want to go forward with skill balancing. With all these exceptions, you're making it impossible for a casual player to figure out what works and what doesn't without scouring every detail of your patch notes and the edits within those.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

This is extremely disheartening and frustrating. Previous patch notes (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/925435-shrine-of-the-eidolon-hotfix-22134/) described the interactions between Arcanes and exalted weapons as an intended feature, and it was for this specific reason that I traded for Arcane Velocity in the first place.

I have no other full Arcane sets as I do not have the time to farm nor the platinum to trade for any of the few useful arcanes such as energise, grace, or aegis, which are all much more expensive than velocity.

In what I consider a comparable situation, the research costs for the Hema were not reduced out of fairness to those who had already invested their time and effort into meeting the research requirements. 

Removing an intended niche use for an unpopular Arcane in this case does not seem in keeping with the spirit of respecting player's time and effort.

 

Please reconsider this decision.

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This change balances nothing. It is just a big middlefinger for all those min-maxers that put time or money into this. Money DE was gladly accepting during the Mesa access.

PM is still op, it is not like this nerf changes anything other than one Arcane more being useless. What was DE thinking?

 

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So ? Now we got like what ? 3 an actually useful arcanes ? Did too many casuals cried on DE's lap, that they dont have time to farm arcanes, so good old DE was like "Dont worry, we will make it useless so you don't need to farm it anymore"

 

clap clap DE.

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I'm so dissapointed by this, DE keeps nerfing things over and over for a sense of "balance" when this game couldn't be further from balanced if it was trying to be, all you keep doing is pulling the rug out from under people who spent platinum or time on this.

How can Steve be so adamant about "not wanting to invalidate people's time who farmed for the Hema" so not wanting to decrease the amount of mutagen samples required to research it. But at the same time be okay with all these nerfs, people who put many forma into frames, spent large amounts of plat on arcanes, all to have that taken away.

This is a much worse case of invalidating our time and work, in the case of the Hema people may feel like some of their past work went to waste, but in the case of nerfs, not only has their past work gone to waste, but they also lose some fun they had access to. This makes me not want to invest plat into anything ever again, heck, this makes me not want to log in.

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6 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

I'm so dissapointed by this, DE keeps nerfing things over and over for a sense of "balance" when this game couldn't be further from balanced if it was trying to be, all you keep doing is pulling the rug out from under people who spent platinum or time on this.

How can Steve be so adamant about "not wanting to invalidate people's time who farmed for the Hema" so not wanting to decrease the amount of mutagen samples required to research it. But at the same time be okay with all these nerfs, people who put many forma into frames, spent large amounts of plat on arcanes, all to have that taken away.

This is a much worse case of invalidating our time and work, in the case of the Hema people may feel like some of their past work went to waste, but in the case of nerfs, not only has their past work gone to waste, but they also lose some fun they had access to. This makes me not want to invest plat into anything ever again, heck, this makes me not want to log in.

I couldn't agree more.

I was really looking forward for the 75% platinum discounts so badly for not only for my love towards certain Warframes such as Mesa but the way how the game developed as I saw good fortune behind the team.

But all I see now are Buffs for future Prime Access and Nerfs afterwards. Not only that but laziness in real balancing.

I am for certain I won't spend any more money into Warframe for a LONG time until they can proof me otherwise with passionate and real thinking behind the scene. Im really loosing interest into this game as somewhat bugs become features overtime is just ridiculous.

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21 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it. 

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

That's such a lame excuse. Don't let us caught you dropping some insane op mod on purpose in the future because that's a contradiction of your words.

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14 hours ago, Arniox said:

Why not just reduce the damage of peacemaker by 25% and allow arcane velocity to work + allow arcanes to work on other exalted weapons? That'll mean that it won't be as broken as you say, and will mean new players will have a goal to reach with wanting to boost mesas performance? 

First of all, don’t compromise on this matter. You should have every right to complain, and you should have every right to refute the removed interaction between Arcanes and Exalted Weapons. This interaction has been going on for years, only to be nerfed now? Really? Please, please, don’t sugarcoat this discrepancy of poor decisions with the hopes of compromise / band-aid solutions by nerfing something to regain something. We’ve learned that during the Innate Sentinel Vacuum / Universal Vacuum mod debacle.

As aforementioned, we’ve had Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons for 3+ years now and this word of this relation being removed in the mainline because certain actions “going up to 11, so it’s not necessary” is the reason? This is bull 💩:poop:💩 and you know it, DE. Ridiculous.

Some players that ran the Raids back then farmed extensively for some of these Arcanes. I know I tried my hand in coveting Arcane Fury, Strike, and Avenger as much as possible, and went on Trade overnight trying to buy what I can to make my sets. And we ALL knew HOW some of these Arcanes worked and WHERE they worked, there is no denying this fact. It truly expanded on the build diversity in our gameplay for the benefit of the playerbase, and it made what seemed like a monotone mod system in Warframe less monotonous with the use of some Arcanes.

@[DE]Bear I’ve read your post and quite frankly I’m extremely disappointed with this discussion you had with your peers. Please consider this as feedback on poor decisions with regards to manipulating the playerbase in their path on build diversity with the removed interaction between certain Arcanes and Exalted Weapon, amongst other things.

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