Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

AnoDarkrai

Patch 24.4.0 - Mesa's Peacemaker not working anymore as intended

Recommended Posts

On 2019-03-12 at 11:44 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

You have nerfed all exalted frames with this decision just because you want to nerf Mesa, I find that unacceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its quite funny because it looks like they arent going to answer anytime soon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curious as to how some exalted weapons can still trigger the weapon/attack related arcanes, Titanias Dex Pixia can still trigger Arcane Velocity while peacemakers can't. Khora's whipclaw can trigger Arcane strike when Excal and Valkyr can't. Didn't have time to test more interactions but would imagine it's gonna be wildly inconsistent as to what can and can't trigger arcanes now. So good job DE, stealth nerfing things that didn't need nerfing and creating inconsistencies that weren't there before while doing so really seems like great way to treat your community. 👍

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-03-12 at 4:44 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

We will be editing the patch notes to reflect this.
 

Dear DE,

Can you please listen up to your beloved Community once again, who helped on your 6+ years of journey for Warframe to become what we all know and love for today?

We have been going trough alot of time and changes. Not every change has been the greatest, but so has not every change been bad. But what I and most of us probably as well will not regret is the time we have invested with for this Game. All the patience and fun we had all together. The game has been growing into something real big, so did our love and motivation towards it.

After all this the DE we all know and love is the team behind the game who listens to their community. Who is developing their game with real patience and creativity. The team who gave us the feeling of being a big part of this game, of this creation. It is more as just a Job for you Guys and you know it even better than we do!

With all this being said, DE.

Please take another look into our opinions and feelings. Try to unterstand us. At the end all we want is Warframe to succeed with its biggest priority being fun to play with. Not even most triple A developers can do this successfully nowadays. But you guys and girls, DE, can.

For the Tenno.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, QuortaZ said:

Titanias Dex Pixia can still trigger Arcane Velocity while peacemakers can't. Khora's whipclaw can trigger Arcane strike when Excal and Valkyr can't.

It's actually not Titania's Dex Pixia that's triggering Arcane Velocity, it's actually her razorflies (razorwing butterflies) that are proccing the arcane. Someone in the reddit comments tested this.

I was wondering the situation about the "half-exalted" weapon users like Khora, Gara or Ash (and others, sorry I don't remember everybody). So they likely can still proc their weapon arcanes but 'full exalted' weapon users are basically still screwed out then.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey folks,

There are a lot of passionate feelings about this, and it warrants revisiting. Before we get too far into the next steps, I want to thank you all for your feedback and your thoughts. A reminder though; decisions we make on some things are not set in stone. When something seems right to do on a given day, down the road it may need to be reversed.

When the problem was first brought up, we initially saw it contained to a single Arcane + Ability. Given the level of Peacemaker and its already strong position, the change seemed warranted. However, this mainline update has had an effect on multiple Exalted weapons and builds and it is these inconsistencies that are causing us to look at this again to figure out what actually happened here.

I can’t give you an answer on what is going to happen going forward today, there are simply too many spinning plates, and looking into the effect of each Arcane on each Exalted weapon is going to take time to see what's broken. Be assured though that your concerns are heard, but we need to approach it correctly.

I will keep this thread posted with updates as I get them.

Thank you, and as a reminder, please keep the discussion civil.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-03-12 at 11:44 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11. While this change was not intended, after some internal back and forth we have made the decision to keep this change. We feel that the two combined makes the already top tier Peacemaker over the top. It still works with Peacemaker, Peacemaker simply cannot trigger it.

 

This is a disappointing change that takes away part of the player's ability to min-max their gear and makes a late game item mostly useless.  We know Mesa's peacemaker is strong enough without arcane velocity but it makes the game more fun if arcanes work consistently on exalted weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2019‎-‎03‎-‎12 at 11:44 AM, [DE]Bear said:

 

Peacemaker is already a strong ability and the use of Arcane Velocity simply turned that up to 11

Yeah. It did. Because the whole point of farming arcanes in the first place is to make things even better.
:facepalm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey @[DE]Bear, I understand where you guys come from but I just wanted to share some thoughts here: While it is true Arcane Velocity makes Peacemaker quite powerful, it's not amongst the worst offenders nor I believe it to be the issue at hand. In fact, this interaction alone is what gives value (and not just economically) to this Arcane -- how many will now use it? How many Arcanes out of the available pool are actually used and why?

Warframe has many issues you guys try to take when able, but sometimes this kind of changes seem to fall on a backburner that never again gets touched. A good example of this was Chroma's "nerf", where Rebb assured us he'd get a revisit at some point in the future (the wording made everyone think when Prime comes) and there he is, nothing changed about him. On this case, while Peacemaker itself is not receiving any changes, it gets a bit less fun.

Now there's another topic at hand, which is: Is Arcane Velocity the issue here? Is it Peacemaker? Or is it perhaps the dated damage and resistance/armor system that has been in dire need of a look up (and Steve seems to have started to look at)? Do we have enough high end content to use these "over the top" builds? What we have is enough, do these have issues on the power/level scale (do the higher level enemies die too fast, is there any downside to them not dying too fast)?

I think answering those questions will show that Arcane Velocity + Peacemaker doesn't really warrant a change, for it feels great to play not just because of power but also because of a properly executed fantasy, and perhaps we should focus our attention elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey folks,

There are a lot of passionate feelings about this, and it warrants revisiting. Before we get too far into the next steps, I want to thank you all for your feedback and your thoughts. A reminder though; decisions we make on some things are not set in stone. When something seems right to do on a given day, down the road it may need to be reversed.

When the problem was first brought up, we initially saw it contained to a single Arcane + Ability. Given the level of Peacemaker and its already strong position, the change seemed warranted. However, this mainline update has had an effect on multiple Exalted weapons and builds and it is these inconsistencies that are causing us to look at this again to figure out what actually happened here.

I can’t give you an answer on what is going to happen going forward today, there are simply too many spinning plates, and looking into the effect of each Arcane on each Exalted weapon is going to take time to see what's broken. Be assured though that your concerns are heard, but we need to approach it correctly.

I will keep this thread posted with updates as I get them.

Thank you, and as a reminder, please keep the discussion civil.
 

Thanks for the update. It is good to know that there is still ongoing discussion about this issue/change. IMO, we should avoid these exceptions if at all possible. They make a game that already has a lot of complex interactions all that much more complex and less intuitive. I said the same thing about all the mods that did not work on exalted weapons before we were able to mod them separately and will say it again now. It is not a good experience to have to check the wiki every time I want to know if a specific weapon/power works with a mod/arcane. This stuff should be kept as simple as possible, especially as the game continues to grow in size and complexity. Attempting to put out these fires one at a time is not the correct way to handle the power creep that has been introduced into the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nickstarship said:

 

Remember This Fix on February 22nd Omegalul

He addressed that.

23 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

 A reminder though; decisions we make on some things are not set in stone. When something seems right to do on a given day, down the road it may need to be reversed. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked this answer. From a player who has been a warframe player for a long time, from my perspective. This "it'll take a while to figure out the arcanes for each exalted weapon" might mean 1 week or 1 year or even more to fix what wasn't broken in the first place. Till then, am out! Have fun everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hey folks,

There are a lot of passionate feelings about this, and it warrants revisiting. Before we get too far into the next steps, I want to thank you all for your feedback and your thoughts. A reminder though; decisions we make on some things are not set in stone. When something seems right to do on a given day, down the road it may need to be reversed.

When the problem was first brought up, we initially saw it contained to a single Arcane + Ability. Given the level of Peacemaker and its already strong position, the change seemed warranted. However, this mainline update has had an effect on multiple Exalted weapons and builds and it is these inconsistencies that are causing us to look at this again to figure out what actually happened here.

I can’t give you an answer on what is going to happen going forward today, there are simply too many spinning plates, and looking into the effect of each Arcane on each Exalted weapon is going to take time to see what's broken. Be assured though that your concerns are heard, but we need to approach it correctly.

I will keep this thread posted with updates as I get them.

Thank you, and as a reminder, please keep the discussion civil.
 

Thank you Bear for the open dialogue and updates on this thread. We appreciate hearing from you.

I stand with others that I feel arcanes should work for all exalted weapon users (including Mesa). I would prefer to see changes reverted back to pre mainline 24.4.0. But I will also patiently wait for later updates to this thread. Thank you again Bear for keeping an open discussion on this topic and for updating us on it as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Now there's another topic at hand, which is: Is Arcane Velocity the issue here? Is it Peacemaker? Or is it perhaps the dated damage and resistance/armor system that has been in dire need of a look up (and Steve seems to have started to look at)? Do we have enough high end content to use these "over the top" builds? What we have is enough, do these have issues on the power/level scale (do the higher level enemies die too fast, is there any downside to them not dying too fast)?

2

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

Yes, by making  changes without telling, then saying it was unintentional, theen saying it was too strong, theeen saying it was intentional from the beginning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope DE will learn at some point that it's almost always better to buff enemies than to nerf frames, directly or by denying them build flexibility.

The worst part of arcane related nerfs is the investment many players made.

DE profits from platinum purchases made in order to buy arcanes - it's not a direct plat sink but it's close to it because it's a useful upgrade most buyers want to keep.

Many voices pointed out Mesa is not dramatically weaker without arcanes affecting Pacemeker but taking them away at this point is a jerk move.

You would not dare nerf Mesa when her Prime Access was released. You did not make her first power useful but you also did not destroy the rest of her kit. Holidays were not ruined.

I don't know if there's a way how to tone down Mesa without destroying her ultimate but if Pacemaker damage and range would ever be touched I expect her 1 to be turned into some new power, even great augment is not enough because it would have to be godly to compensate for a slot taken.

If you take a candy from a baby too many times it will lose trust - players will hesitate to make big purchases in fear of nerfs and "it was never intended" line will stop being funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

Thank you for popping back into the thread, Bear. As you've said there are a lot of vectors to consider but I feel one of them might not be known or considered enough: there just simply aren't better or equal alternatives to Velocity that aren't the standard of Grace, Energize, Guardian. This might be a good springboard for reworking arcanes as a whole to be, well, more because there is a precedent for that: arcane helmets. I realize that's a stretch but we'll use Mag's Arcane Coil helmet here as an example: +25% ability range, -5% shield, it locks an arcane slot to use it but it easily competes with the standard for arcanes, personally I would be hard pressed to choose between 25% range and Energize. I'm not saying this is the solution but it one that allows both customization and min/maxers to have something to chew on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Boboberto said:

Yes, by making  changes without telling, then saying it was unintentional, theen saying it was too strong, theeen saying it was intentional from the beginning. 

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also like to add Growing power isn't getting proced from exalted as well. Not sure if it was said but just to make sure it's known. 
 

EDIT: not sure what to classify Garuda as but nothing works for her as well. Arcane strike and Fury are not procing and Growing power isn't as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

When DE actually plays his own game can make any nonsense change ❤️

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

I am totally fine with every point you made except the second one.

 

You should NEVER grab a bug that was, since it is a bug, unintentional, and turn it into an official nerf. No one, and I mean it, no one likes that. That's similar to giving a bowl full of candies but then dropping half of them on the floor, now they're all dirty, and calling it a feature.

 

If it was unintentional, until further assessment, in my honest opinion, it should be removed. In the future, perhaps, discuss it and plan for a properly thought out nerf or buff or change to a specific gear.

 

Sorry if we're all so exalted (pun intended) here, but this isn't the first time DE has done something like this, and the "we're working on that" messages resulted in 1+ year waits before anything was done or fixed properly. I do believe DE will fix this, one way or the other, the problem I am facing now is how long. And if you do fix, how will it change my entire build and how it will make me drop titania completely for another warframe, since I rely ALOT on arcane velocity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

Thanks, that is all we needed to know. A concise timeline, instead of having to piece together random conflitant informations via "Latest Staff Replies". 

Nerfing an interaction -that was harmless and almost no one complained about and, dare I say, the only use of those arcanes- on the fly, without notice, because after several years a bug made you suddenly aware about it, just leaves a bad taste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it odd that this is happening just as Mesa Prime's access is about to end. Coincidence?

There is no logical reason I can think of to limit the viability of certain Arcanes, forcing player to toggle in and out of an Exalted state just to utilize Arcanes they could trigger with the said Exalted "weapons".

I put "weapons" in quotes because apparently Exalted stuff doesn't count as actual weaponry.
This is just a giant middle finger to any players that spent the money / time to earn and max these Arcanes because they wanted to improve their already powerful frames. That's as close to an end game as we can get right now, and you go and do this?

Superbly disappointed.
Arcanes need to either not work on all Exalted weapons for consistency, or they need to work properly and be able to be triggered by Exalted items of the correct type. Cherry-picking stuff like this especially when there are more overpowered Warframes than Mesa is just beyond comprehension.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...