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AnoDarkrai

Patch 24.4.0 - Mesa's Peacemaker not working anymore as intended

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Honestly it seems unfair to be taking away the ability to use arcanes with ANY exalted ability including Mesas peacemaker. I know many people who have dumped hundreds of thousands of plat into builds involving exaulted abilities that depend on the arcanes. Taking away that customization is basically taking away the ability to do any hardcore farming. A majority of warframes now are completely useless since they depended on arcanes to even survive while using their exaulted abilities, or our big dps frames which mesa isnt even the biggest dps frame. This is just a very lazy way of addressing a much  larger issue that damage output in warframe is broken. Arcanes pairing with exaulted abilities are not the issue at all, the damage system is. Revert the arcanes back to pair with exaulted abilities and focus on the damage system if you want to actually solve any problems. Honestly it seems unfair to be taking away the ability to use arcanes with ANY exalted ability including Mesas peacemaker. I know many people who have dumped hundreds of thousands of plat into builds involving exaulted abilities that depend on the arcanes. Taking away that customization is basically taking away the ability to do any hardcore farming. A majority of warframes now are completely useless since they depended on arcanes to even survive while using their exaulted abilities, or our big dps frames which mesa isnt even the biggest dps frame. This is just a very lazy way of addressing a much  larger issue that damage output in warframe is broken. Arcanes pairing with exaulted abilities are not the issue at all, the damage system is. Revert the arcanes back to pair with exaulted abilities and focus on the damage system if you want to actually solve any problems. 

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il y a 41 minutes, [DE]Bear a dit :

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

Problem is that your team cant decide on a whim what is a bug and what is not and decide to whoever heart's content. It was fixed before this mainline and the mainline broke the thing you fixed in the past and to be honest, all bugs should be adressed as quickly as it can.. and since your new slogan for the year is making everything less clunky, needing to "shoot" before to get a buff use the buff, rinse and repeat is super clumsy and not efficient at all. I think people are being angry because they are passionate about the game they like and they dont like seeing unwarranted nerfs 

Also  the point of getting arcanes in general to make your build more powerful without making it more clumsy

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50 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

I've played a LOT of Mesa, second only to Volt by my recollection. In long-term content (hours-long Survivals and Defenses) even with a Pair of Arcane Velocities and ~8 Forma between my {Base}Mesa and Peacemakers, I couldn't keep up with some of my teammates using various other Warframes and builds that didn't have exalted weapons at all. Exalted weapons are improved by the Arcanes that pertain to them, but I've never really encountered a situation where they could overtake the other Tenno in the team, assuming they were similar in skill and equipment level. I genuinely don't see any reason to nerf Warframe Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons. In any situation where one can trash a large group of enemies, a number of other options can do the same just as effectively.

Aside, some of us farmed Eidolons explicitly to earn Arcanes to make this combination work. Others spent Platinum buying Arcanes for the same purpose. I fall into both categories, depending on the Arcane. And as mentioned above it takes Mesa, one of my favorite Warframes and my go-to for tough content, and reduces her capability significantly. All other frames with Exalted Weapons, particularly Excalibur Umbra, Titania and even Baruuk are getting dropped down a peg as well. A lot of the frames I really like to play are getting nerfed here. I feel that this change (which hasn't hit me on PS4 yet) will invalidate the time, energy, and Platinum I put toward getting these Arcanes and building these Warframes with intent to use them together. As a player/consumer, that's not a feeling I want to have.

I've played Warframe almost exclusively for the last year. It's one of the best games I've ever played, and I've been gaming for decades. I've come to expect better than this from you guys at DE, and you haven't really let me down. Don't start now, please. I don't want a reason to be bitter at Warframe and DE, especially not one this avoidable. I'm not pulling some "fix or I leave" threat, but pulling the legs out from under some significant time investment is likely to nudge me towards doing something else with my spare time, feeling that whatever I'm grinding for or buying today may just be invalidated next week anyway.

DE's better than this, and I know it. Don't prove me wrong. Please.

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25 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure.

That is something i have kept telling people. Programming, patching, changing, tweaking, there is alot going on in a game studio with a game like this. Despite all efforts, especialy massive updates, tend to ship with problems that are unpredictable or unintentional.

I can only imagen the intense stress the devs have to deal on a daily basis when stuff like this happens. Mad respect to all of you for putting it up with all that to give us a great game and experience.

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hace 4 minutos, MunsuLight dijo:

Problem is that your team cant decide on a whim what is a bug and what is not and decide to whoever heart's content. It was fixed before this mainline and the mainline broke the thing you fixed in the past and to be honest, all bugs should be adressed as quickly as it can.. and since your new slogan for the year is making everything less clunky, needing to "shoot" before to get a buff use the buff, rinse and repeat is super clumsy and not efficient at all. I think people are being angry because they are passionate about the game they like and they dont like seeing unwarranted nerfs 

Also  the point of getting arcanes in general to make your build more powerful without making it more clumsy

I was thinking this. This doesn't nerf Peacemaker power level AT ALL, only makes it clunky to use.

I would find it more comprehensible if they just outright remove arcanes working with exalted weapons (something I don't agree though) if they wanted to fix exalted weapons being "over the top".

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Hey @[DE]Bear, thanks for the update, and glad to hear you guys are looking into the issue.

I think all anyone's looking for at this point is just a return to the Hotfix 22.13.4 status quo.  There didn't seem to be any real issues with arcane implementation/effects concerning exalted weapons/abilities prior to Update 24.4.0.  As others have said, I don't think having exceptions to certain arcanes is the way to go (e.g this arcane works on literally everything except this frame) because that just introduces confusion about what works and what doesn't, and limits player choice.  I'm of the same opinion that arcanes should work on all exalted weapons/abilities.

23 minutes ago, SethSoul said:

I would also like to add Growing power isn't getting proced from exalted as well. Not sure if it was said but just to make sure it's known. 
 

EDIT: not sure what to classify Garuda as but nothing works for her as well. Arcane strike and Fury are not procing and Growing power isn't as well. 

Yeah, Garuda's a bit of a strange case.  According to the wiki, Garuda's Talons are an exalted weapon, but it's not one that's tied to any of Garuda's abilities, and you only get to use it when you don't have another melee weapon equipped, which leads one to believe that it's just a melee weapon and not a true exalted weapon (e.g. Valkyr's Talons via Hysteria).  And yet, it's still affected by the whole arcane problem.

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Of course things happen and mistakes can be made.

But you fail to understand that all the fuzz around this issue comes from your dishonesty. That's right, we are not implying, it's the truth, period.

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On the vein of mesa's peacemaker issues:

apart from this "nice" stealth nerf, thanks for kicking titania in the face some more after her rework hotfix, could you guys give a look to why a lot of units and all vehicles in plains and vallis aren't targettable at all with Peacemaker?! nowere is made mention that a lot of npcs are suddenly invulnerable to exalted weapons.

I find it stupid that a weapon that we aim manually and is more or less on par with our conventional arsenal keeps getting hit with stupid bugs/nerfs.

So far i can confirm issues with the following units:

- all vehicles in landscapes don't trigger peacemaker's autofire, nor is possible in any way to shoot them manually

- Kuva guardians: invulnerable even when deprived of their polearm

- active turrets on orokin/derelict tilesets

- any enemy unit below a certain distance from Mesa / Mesa Prime

- on start peacemaker shoots the currently wielded weapon for a pair of shots before actually switching to the Regulators - issue appearing when playing as guest whenever there's a bit of latency with the host

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58 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

Please, do not think about this tread as a feedback. There is few point (already in this tread) that just a logic.

1. Velocity is not a big deal. In low level you don't need it, in high level you may prefer some survivability. There is proofs up here, and i can say by myself -- with a Mesa in party, will arcane work, or not, nothing will changed for anything, but Mesa's users happiness. She will kill anything she see, before anybody else.

2. There is literally few arcanes what are actually used. It is a true magic we have any reason to use another.

3. This is just inconsistent, for many reasons. "You need to achive critical, from any sourses, but not the actual gun you shoot".

4. Arcanes is already a part of economy. Bad argument, but all your state "oh, we diside to wait for few years and now, then Mesa PA is over we nerf it" not better.

5. There is no balance in WF. Yeah, you can say Mesa is OP, but most of Exalted frames are far away from meta. That's not a "happy coincidence" now. It was in a day exalted weapon started work with arcanes. It is wonderfull ppl have one more reason to use Titania, Excalibur, Wukong or Valkyr. Even if it from some point it a step away from a guideline.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).

- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

I appreciate the transparency, but let me be clear on one thing: Arcanes were fully functional with Exalted Weapons (certain ones if not all) well before Shrine of the Eidolon u22.13.4. I remember distinctly going for 666 Executioner kills with my Valkyr by using Arcane Fury and Arcane Energize during the Rathuum event to secure my clan their gold trophy. I also remember distinctly farming for Arcane Strike and Arcane Phantasm during LoR and LoR Nightmare because it had an interaction with Excalibur’s Exalted Blade. These Arcane interactions with Exalted Weaponry have been in the game well before the present PC Mainline update, and saying otherwise that the Mainline somehow exposed the “unintended” interaction between Mesa’s Peacemakers and Arcane Velocity is extremely disingenuous. 

We were and still are under the premise that such an interaction is intended. Using the Mainline update as a means to relay an unexpected bug or feature with the nature of Arcanes with Exalted Weaponry disenfranchises the integrity in the history of the patchnotes given to us to review and abide by, and the lack of knowledge of the development processes of what has been intended and what is not in Warframe’s game development.

As a playerbase, we are a very passionate bunch. I’ve been playing this game close to 4 years now, and some of my friends and my cousin who brought me into this game have been playing for 5-6. This game is like our Holy Bible, but we also include and never forget the teachings of the Old Testament (Stamina, Charged Attacks / Melee 1.0, 4 Revives per Frame a day, etc.). With passion we are also knowledgeable of Warframe’s past and know what and how we can do better for its longevity. We are always learning, always trying, always discussing this game’s development and its future. We should do well to be better as a community, both from a developmental perspective and as players from the playerbase, to be as informative as possible and not do anything that could quite literally impede Warframe’s excellence and whatever has made it into the platform with, what could be, a myriad if not iridescent array of options that makes it great.

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15 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

I find it stupid that a weapon that we aim manually and is more or less on par with our conventional arsenal keeps getting hit with stupid bugs/nerfs.

So far i can confirm issues with the following units:

- all vehicles in landscapes don't trigger peacemaker's autofire, nor is possible in any way to shoot them manually

- Kuva guardians: invulnerable even when deprived of their polearm

- active turrets on orokin/derelict tilesets

- any enemy unit below a certain distance from Mesa / Mesa Prime

- on start peacemaker shoots the currently wielded weapon for a pair of shots before actually switching to the Regulators - issue appearing when playing as guest whenever there's a bit of latency with the host

You're still missing: The Stalker, Capture Targets, Nullifiers, The Wolf of Saturn Six and some gimmicky bosses like Lephantis. There might be more I can't remember.

Also, I wouldn't call it an issue. I'm willing to bet DE knows full well that Peacemaker has those limitations and that they are intentional. And while I can agree that shooting down enemy ships like flies sounds OP, there are a variety of weapons available to any frame (Rubico, Lanka, Opticor, etc.) that are capable of that already.

With that said, I don't understand why a Mesa nerf is acceptable/necessary at this point, when the real nuke frames like Saryn and Volt are untouched. If anything this only reduces Mesa's viability and pushes even more people towards the aforementioned frames.

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Good,now i hate DE. How about giving back money for Mesa prime, formas for her and her weapon and for arcanes? cause i wont use her without this juicy arcane speed. 

why the hell its even needed to be nerfed? and what the point of arcanes , i thought they are for “making u even stronger”, no?? w/e. 

Nice decisions. Have fun there in ur office. 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

When the problem was first brought up, we initially saw it contained to a single Arcane + Ability. Given the level of Peacemaker and its already strong position, the change seemed warranted.

I mean, making a seemingly OP character less OP, but Still OP, isn't needed. Especially when required balances to the character has been done already. Having more DPS with mesa wasn't breaking the game, she was one-shotting the crowd and still is. Having more DPS was only making it possible certain tanky enemies to be killed 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds and that was enough to be satisfied by the hard earned arcane build of this frame.

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A fair response Bear,

I don't think anyone reasonable is going to be mad this takes some time to work through and whatever the outcome I hope it's a move towards consistency and would even urge a look at the non-exalted "weapons" of the game while Melee is under construction. We really need some standardization. A player should know by reading a mod if it's going to work with a specific ability or weapon. They shouldn't need to read the wiki or go into the Simularum to double check everything.

  • Condition Overload didn't work with Zeni Disc now it does?
  • Blood Rush doesn't work on Exalted weapons but the Gladiator set Bonus does?

Interactions just feel so random these days we can't tell what's intentional and what's not.

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If an arcane says " provides a chance, whenever the player achieves a Critical Hit, to increase Fire Rate on Secondaries for a short time." It should provide said buff to ALL SECONDARY WEAPONS. If exalted WEAPONS where separated from abilities, if we can MOD THEM WITH WEAPON MODS, then why shouldn't the arcanes work too?

Peacemakers are an ability AND secondary weapons since we can mod them with mods for secondary weapons. I don not follow the logic here of what works with what, when there's no exclusion note anywhere in-game. This should be addressed to all exalted weapons for consistency. Please DE, stop fixing things that aren't broken in the first place! Modding should be all about personalization, restrictions are necessary, we get that, but they should be consistent.

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There's absolutely a fair discussion to be had regarding re-balancing Mesa, but it is worth noting that a lot of her power comes from Peacemakers fundamental mechanic: Its an Aim-bot. Its easy to use, and is good in a lot of content which makes her pretty popular (Its also worth noting that for pretty much every piece of content except the index, there is a better choice than Mesa for strict min/maxing).

Due to how the game scales enemies and the large variety of enemy levels that exists in Warframe's relevant content, there is not really any sweet spot of power level for Peacemaker (or any wide-clearing ability). It will either clear everything fast enough, or it will not. We have seen many AoE frames been nerfed into irrelevancy for this exact same reason before, which just reduced viable builds and made things less fun.

Currently, even without AV she is way beyond the point of struggling to clear even armoured lvl 100 sorties. Realistically, not having AV would do nothing for general game balance. Its effect would remove her damage scaling for extremely high levels (beyond sortie levels), and makes her feel less smooth to play. The former is fairly pointless to balance since Mesa lacks the scaling and utility to effectively contribute in a run that wants to hit enemy level cap, unlike frames like Saryn and Octavia. The latter is just a nerf to enjoyment and quality of life, which is undesirable no matter how you look at it. 

So, I definitely think that there is a room for re-balancing Mesa, but I don't think its possible to do it fairly without reworking her kit (Which I would honestly love to see a proper rework of, because her 1 is one of the worst skills in game and her 2 and 3 are getting very dated and her 4 is admittedly a massive balance nuisance). Just making AV not work with Peacemaker might seem like a simple nudge in the right direction (its "just" a 50% DPS loss), but in reality it won't stop Mesa from stomping all over the star chart in the slightest, and it will just make her feel worse to play. 

So please: Reconsider this nerf. If you absolutely have to nerf her with the same magnitude, halve the base damage of the Regulators instead so I can keep the high rate of fire. 

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57 минут назад, Lokime сказал:

If an arcane says " provides a chance, whenever the player achieves a Critical Hit, to increase Fire Rate on Secondaries for a short time." It should provide said buff to ALL SECONDARY WEAPONS. If exalted WEAPONS where separated from abilities, if we can MOD THEM WITH WEAPON MODS, then why shouldn't the arcanes work too?

Peacemakers are an ability AND secondary weapons since we can mod them with mods for secondary weapons. I don not follow the logic here of what works with what, when there's no exclusion note anywhere in-game. This should be addressed to all exalted weapons for consistency. Please DE, stop fixing things that aren't broken in the first place! Modding should be all about personalization, restrictions are necessary, we get that, but they should be consistent.

And, of course, this should work for EVERY critical hit (as intended). We can now observe a bug being turned into a feature.

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Warframe is a game about quick killing tons of mobs (even in endgame), so DE, why are you trying to deny it? 

Arcane Velocity had one application...

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TL;DR: I feel 'X arcane makes X broken therefore no more X's can use arcanes is a terrible way of looking/fixing this, here is some of my points as to why.

-Pistol arcane working for a pistol Ex.weapon makes sense. Same goes for Exodia stick working for an Ex.blade. Why!? I don't really know besides it was my first guess and I assume the same for most other people.

-Arcanes,exodias,ect being made more clear, not only in UI but in usage as well was needed and I am happy to see it being worked on, good on you. I feel the best (not easiest) would be to let them work, and refine problem children as you can.

-'Bug into feature' as it may or may not be, never feels good, regardless of where the theoretical line may be.

-You already have the tools through the enemies you use to negate or curb potentially OP Warframe abilities.

-If this is a side-effect of 'only kit-guns and zaws are viable at the top cause numbers' then the issue should be solved through maybe a new potato that adds an arcane slot to a 'normie' weapon. It is potential revenue for DE through another primo resource. Rare, but also farmable and buyable, this resource would breathe life into favorites that got left behind because 'numbers'. It would also make the prospect of 'kit-primarys' less daunting or scary. If say a Tigris Prime becomes ungodly broken through arcanes, those should be worked on a case by case basis. I understand that is more work, but it is some of the refinement this game needs. Little more TLC, even at the cost of potentially less guns/frames for a year or two (Im well aware there are only so many hands on deck).

-Special arcanes for Ex.weapons maybe counter intuitive and yet more power creep. You already had a vehicle for this and it made the choice of 'do I take tanky arcanes or synergistic ones or raw passive dmg gains' a legit one.

-My final point is this - Warframe the game does not need nerfs. Warframe the game needs refinement, clarity, synergy, diversity and fluidity between the already gigantic amount of systems at play. I am thoroughly enjoying watching it come together. Amalgam/Melee/Railjack anyone? I wish you all the best. Thank you!

 

Ok, worst TL;DR, I know. I don't choose to do this often, but when I do, I choose Dos Equis. But I also clear my afternoon, so laundry will have to wait and this is gonna get long. The following is an account of one players dealings with this change and how I have struggled to justify it. Even as much as I love to play 'Devil's Advocate', I struggle. I will do my best to not be too biased and try to not miss the trees for the forest here. But to do that, please allow me to give a little background on what 'type' of Warframe player I am (because this game takes in ALL KINDS), or to stroke my ego. You decide.

I am what they call a 'Try-Hard' 'Min-Max' 'Weeb' but that last one doesn't matter as much. TBH, you can skip the rest of this paragraph, this is the 'stroke' I spoke of. With almost 3 decades of gaming under my belt about 15-20 years of that has been pseudo-competitive. That's to say when I do something and spend my time on it, I do my best to do what I and others have found to be 'right' or 'best' or 'fastest' ect. I take that 'right' and push it and do my best to max it out, all the time remixing it a bit in search of a better right. Fighters/Shooters/RPG/ISO'Turn based, I try hard and usually don't do too bad if I say so myself. Last cool thing I did IMO, was holding the world record parse for DH tanks on Mythic MOTHER for 3 weeks in Battle for Azeroths first mythic raid tier. Breaking my own record on week 2 left me drained and shaking. A mixture of laughter, tears, bad breathing and a touch of fear because that high was something else.

With that being said, this mindset is what brought me to this forum. It was out of a selfish want for my 'right' build, that only just recently came to light and has taken a butt-ton of time to farm for, to become a reality...again. That's the things, if the amalgam mods were out about a month ago and I didn't take a break to play WOW, or this 'bug into feature' wasn't a thing I might have gotten to see this beautiful piece of work in action. What I loved most about it was this head-cannon I started thinking about, like you guys had this grand plan for all these systems you have to fully compliment one another. Maybe not marry all of them together, but the fact that it started to feel like every system had something nice to say or even add to another system felt amazing and very PathOExile like.

What build? This build.

It looks pretty cookie cutter right? Right, you wouldn't be wrong for thinking that. If there is any beauty to be found in my build it comes from the synergy with the other systems. Let me explain.

QUICK TL;DR BUILD NOTES: Naramon (Finishers), Magus Elevate (Oh S#&$ Heal), Exodia Might (LS), Arcane Ultimatum (Tanky), Arcane Fury (DPS), Pax Bolt (Proc before Ex.B use),  Amalgam Serration/Barrel Diffusion (melee needs to move fast, reason to use bring a gun finally), Miter (has my eye on it for a Amalgam stat stick syndicate proc, armor and heal, bonus that it pops bubbles with augment)

-Movement: Simple and doesn't have to do with arcanes but does have to do with synergy of systems so all I will say is 'Praise the Amalgam Mods and Melee 2.999ect. Forever thank them for making this simple weeb want to bring guns to a typical mission'. Amalgam Serration/Barrel Diffusion FTW!

-Lack of STR? WTF?: This is the hole that Pax bolt fills greatly. 30%STR and EFF on headshot. Sidearm now has a use for weebs.

-Ok. How far can it go before it dies and what does this have to do with arcanes? Im not sure, was hopping to test that. The thought was, inside or outside of ex.blade I had the option to trigger an Exodia Might (Lifesteal) and Arcane Ultimatum (Bonus Armor) proc by using my 2 (Radial Howl) or by using my Operator (Naramon) to open them up for finishers. Giving me an excuse outside of mobility or cheese or Eidolons  to use the Operator feels great (now lets just make Operator junk happen on the players side so bad hosts don't make your transference take 3 secs to activate and swap, I hear you are working on that ^_^).

But now, the way I envision it is having to hit 4 not because I want to avoid animation locks from a nullifier but because I have to refresh my armor and other buffs and could use a little lifesteal no doubt. I know I am running the risk of not even wanting to bother with ex.blade. Being able to synergize my Ex.B with my exodia felt great and saved a mod slot. With the added fluidity that came with melee 2.9 and the inability to work with arcanes makes Ex.B a relic and a massive step back in terms of power fantasy and build synergy.

Why even bother with the animation to whip it out when the zaw and slash dash will do just fine in 90% of content. Arcanes are strong and make Ex weapons feel SUPER weak when they can't use them. No I don't care how ridicules that sounds. Yes, they are strong on their own, but there is better ways to reel them in IE: smart mob composition. Don't let everything melt to PK/EB/DP/Insert Ex weapon here. Swapping in and out of EX all the time to keep buffs up, even though I can imagine a world where it is super viable in some situations, feels like garbage at the moment. 

To close the build out I just want to say, isn't the synergy obvious at this point? Wouldn't a DE designer somewhere give a simple nod as to say "heh, he gets it". I should be championing the thought, design and foresight that went on in the background when creating these system ties (and I still plan to do so with my youtube debut...I think, have other things I want to address just not sure what to pick), but instead I sit here writing and re-writing and researching and debating with myself for hours as to why this would ever be a good thing for clarity, synergy, hell...fun? Through my experience with you guys in and out of game, I feel you mean well and soooooooo many times I have given you a simple nod with a giant smile reveling in a new understanding of your systems and how they can work with one another and I say to myself "heh, they get it". Please try to understand just how big of a step back this feels like. I really wish I could convey the 'clunk' this change introduces. I hope I managed at least a fraction of that frustration and the shooting in the foot I see this doing to yourself.

You are selling (IMHO) the best power fantasy on the market. 2019-2020 I see as the time where all the Venn-diagrams of systems at play here truly overlap and come the closest they ever have been to truly becoming one. Farming multiple things/reps/goals in one task 'two/three/four birds one stone', huge catalog to grind or not grind for, Mastery Rank, Nightwave, Relics, Vaulting, Barrow, Movement system, Primary, Secondary, Melee, Tenno, Focus, Archwing/Arch weapons, Arcanes/Exodia ect. You already have diverse modes/enemies/roles of play further encouraging 'bring the right tool for the job' in turn potentially encouraging deeper dives into that huge catalog. You have already accomplished so much. Hell, I legit can even see a place for K-drives and would love nothing more than to workshop that any time. I can already see these coming together beautifully, working with one another, feeding into one another.

 This game came out of the rough. Never have I ever been more happy to be wrong. I passed you guys up at first even being at the height of my cyborg ninja fanboying, and not until the hype generated through plains did I give another look. Maybe I was 'right' when I first passed up 'yet another Free2Play' in the flood of Free2Play. But your team has come so ******* far. You, DE, after 6+years of coming out of that rough are on the cusp of becoming the brightest diamond in the industry (and if you haven't noticed, the industry needs your image, bad). You have hit diamond status in my book and are so close to polished diamond status that it somehow convinced me that spending my day like this was the 'right' thing to do.

I know how arm chair dev I sound with what I have and am about to say in closing, but at least it's the end of my soapbox right? If I had to decide what the focus of 2019-2020 were to be, It would be a focus on refinement and polish.

New lighting and textures; Great, looks awesome, careful breaking the game and bringing open worlds to a crawl please. Because if im honest, I love that it has breathe taking "oh S#&$ that look good" moments, but if it slogs in a fight in a game about fast space ninjas...I no longer care about that perfect sunshaft or skybox or trees or bushes or dirt or whatever.

Clarity; The ui overhaul is great, but this is very much so a 'wiki' game. I am all for that but I think I am in the minority there. Your game, your world should do everything it can do to convey the rules and pieces to its players. If an Arcane says "...for pistols" it should work for even the "special pistol". Arcane Arachne is a prime example of bad clarity, bonus dmg on what? Go to the wiki to find out. Careful with your wording or lack there of.

Refinement; Garbage arcanes and all things that seemingly see no use can legit be done away with or reworked. Mods packs? No. A new resource to buy and farm that is very much so inclusive in regards to retired equipment that simply 'can't take an exodia/arcane' making your catalog pop by giving them said slot...yes. The problem cases that bubble to the top, that's where the refinement comes in. Refinement for the case of saving all the hard work from becoming 'the dead' content.

Synergy; Synergy not only with builds but with the systems in which those builds play in. Archwing is just a touch of Z.O.E away from being one of the best transitions in game and one hell of a tool for many jobs. But what about synergy with builds? Check my build, what a beauty am I right? You made it, not me...I just thought you knew that until this arcane bug into feature change.

Diversity; I love that my Chroma has his place, my Loki has his place, my Limbo has his place. Excali gets taken to anything else I can without making people hate me for bringing the wrong tool for the job. It's in the pursuit of build diversity that I feel my 'arcane slot potato' is inevitable. Choice is nice, and one of the best parts of Warframe for most people (if they want to admit it or not) is you don't have to 'be good' or 'right' to have fun and get loot and no one is the wiser...for the most part. You can come in doing 50% of the output of someone else doing the same thing but min/maxed and even solo it's fine as long as S#&$ keeps dying and loot keeps dropping. Play the game you want the way you want...for the most part...friends don't let friends bring an Excali that only uses melee to his first Eidolon hunt...or maybe that's exactly what they do...either way, screw you Supakuka, I wont forgive you.

Fluidity; Ever hear the phrase 'BS is the glue that keeps the world together'? It's kinda the same thing for the game and it's systems except it's not all BS (loadtimes are BS). The best part of TennoCon 2018 was when I saw people fluidly go from a new vehicle type and its menu, to a defense mission/FTL'esc resource/environmental management (put dem fires out...NOW), in the 'calm' between waves jump onto a turret to help make the next wave much thinner/non-existent, all the while hommie 3 is arching out in the wild helping make a hole for hommie 4 to intrude in tandem with hommie 1 at the helm. You can see versions of the same thing in the Plains or hell even round 10-15-20 of Hydron as Archguns sart getting whipped out cause reasons. Or when your UI is just smart, going to mod screen from arsenal for quick upgrading, changing loadout at the nav screen, smart stuff like that.

You get it, you guys made it and this post is officially my March 13th 2019 @ _ @

Even if never read by DE staff, personally I wouldn't feel it was a waste of time, I just hope it wasn't unreadable for those who tried.

For anyone that made it this far, I am so sorry. I am not a writer and I did my best. Thank you for your time.

For any of the DE team, FYI I love your game. Thank you for...making it? Sure that works, thanks for making it ^ - ^

 

 

 

 

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That's convenient since Mesa Prime Access is about to end, excellent timing for a nerf.

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9 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker

From what I know last time is that only pistols will trigger Arcane Velocity and the effect will benefit Peacemaker but Peacemaker cannot trigger the Arcane as Regulators are not considered weapon in the pistol slot. That is why I never use Arcane Velocity on Mesa.

Now I get to know somewhere down the line Peacemaker can actually triggered Arcane Velocity but this is not possible again after this mainline. Hmm... interesting.

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il y a 24 minutes, kyori a dit :

From what I know last time is that only pistols will trigger Arcane Velocity and the effect will benefit Peacemaker but Peacemaker cannot trigger the Arcane as Regulators are not considered weapon in the pistol slot. That is why I never use Arcane Velocity on Mesa.

Now I get to know somewhere down the line Peacemaker can actually triggered Arcane Velocity but this is not possible again after this mainline. Hmm... interesting.

As the description in the wiki says : "Arcane Velocity is an Arcane Enhancement that provides a chance, whenever the player achieves a critical Hit, to increase Fire Rate on Secondaries for a short time."

Wich means every critical hit can proc the Arcane, but the benefit would go to the secondaries, and it worked with peacemaker since the last update.

My opinion is to keep the arcane working with peacemaker as well, it's a part of the game to maximize the capacity of the frame, some uses Arcane velocity to shoot +100 bullets per second with a Mesa, others uses Arcane guardian ou energize to get infinite energy of being invincible.

Mesa can enter a room and clean it in seconds because that's her job, she is a DPS frame and like others DPS, she deals a lot of damage, Nova can also clean an entire room but she is pretty squishy, Trinity can heal the entire squad in a second or give infinite energy, and so on ... every frame has their pro and cons ... Mesa can clean an entire room but in high levels missions, she can die by a single melee hit, she can't escape nullifier's bubbles as quickly as others frames and her 4 don't go trough walls.

Some people complains about Mesa doing her job, I don't see the point, I won't complains if I enter a room full of corpses being dead by a Saryn or if a Chroma can stand still as I'm down, cleaning the floor ...

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9 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

But, you, keep, doing, it. (Ruining fun.)

Just look at how your reworks have been received by the community for every, buffs are generally well received, and nerfs cause a fuss, you can say you listen to us and take it seriously all you want, but that seems to only be in the cases there is overwhelming outcry, and often, not even then, (Hema, Vacuum, Moderation).

Warframe is a power fantasy game, it's a MMO shooter Dynasty Warriors, there have rarely been any situations in this game where nerfs are actually justified in PVE (In fact I can't think of any since I started - PoE) but there have been so many nerfs, I've lost so many fun and useful options to my gameplay, and it feels terrible every time, it's really starting to wear on my soul.

I get it you're trying to make things "balanced" because people complain about x or y thing being too strong, but spoiler alert, this game will never be well balanced, power fantasy games don't lend themselves to being balanced, but that's okay, you need to just focus on having every Warframe, every weapon, having one really cool thing that it's good at doing, you don't really need true balance in a PVE power fantasy game, what you need is uniqueness and differentiation, everything should have something unique that makes it good at something, somewhere. The only time nerfs are truly called for is if a frame or weapon is extremely too good in almost every mission type/enemy type and crowding out other frames usefulness, again, since I've been playing that's never actually been a thing.

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il y a 9 minutes, Sylonus a dit :

But, you, keep, doing, it. (Ruining fun.)

Just look at how your reworks have been received by the community for every, buffs are generally well received, and nerfs cause a fuss, you can say you listen to us and take it seriously all you want, but that seems to only be in the cases there is overwhelming outcry, and often, not even then, (Hema, Vacuum, Moderation).

Warframe is a power fantasy game, it's a MMO shooter Dynasty Warriors, there have rarely been any situations in this game where nerfs are actually justified in PVE (In fact I can't think of any since I started - PoE) but there have been so many nerfs, I've lost so many fun and useful options to my gameplay, and it feels terrible every time, it's really starting to wear on my soul.

I get it you're trying to make things "balanced" because people complain about x or y thing being too strong, but spoiler alert, this game will never be well balanced, power fantasy games don't lend themselves to being balanced, but that's okay, you need to just focus on having every Warframe, every weapon, having one really cool thing that it's good at doing, you don't really need true balance in a PVE power fantasy game, what you need is uniqueness and differentiation, everything should have something unique that makes it good at something, somewhere. The only time nerfs are truly called for is if a frame or weapon is extremely too good in almost every mission type/enemy type and crowding out other frames usefulness, again, since I've been playing that's never actually been a thing.

And I'd like to add ...

When people put 8 formas for frame + weapon, max several primed mods, buy arcanes with platinum, took hours and hours of testing to see wich mod is a better option for them, even to win a little efficiency, those people deserves to have a powerful frame.

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