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Patch 24.4.0 - Mesa's Peacemaker not working anymore as intended

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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

There are a lot of vectors here to investigate, but the main point of our looking at this issue is specific to the cases of Arcanes interacting with Exalted Weapons across the board. No one here is out to ruin fun, but as you can probably tell, the change made to Peacemaker - as well as other Exalted weapons - was a bit more far-reaching than initially thought. We do listen to you, and we do take constructive criticism seriously.

You took thing away without giving any replacement for it. What to use now, arcane guardians for 1200 armor? Aren't arcanes supposed to be high tier powerful things? So basically Mesa now left without useful arcanes, as Mesa is about peacemaker, and arcanes normal weapons aren't making sense on her - why playing her at all if using other weapons.

Let's see it. Peacemaker can't:

- Target bosses, except for small bosses

- Shoot targets that are a lot higher or lower

- Kill nullifiers

- Efficiently kill some mobs that must be hit to a specific point

- Kill enemies from far distance (limited by 50m)

So overall peacemaker is, basically, mobs cleaner, and not most efficient one, since, say, saryn just does it way faster and way more efficient. 

And after all you say that it was too strong to nerf it that much?

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il y a 11 minutes, Lysithea.Nya a dit :

You took thing away without giving any replacement for it. What to use now, arcane guardians for 1200 armor? Aren't arcanes supposed to be high tier powerful things? So basically Mesa now left without useful arcanes, as Mesa is about peacemaker, and arcanes normal weapons aren't making sense on her - why playing her at all if using other weapons.

Let's see it. Peacemaker can't:

- Target bosses, except for small bosses

- Shoot targets that are a lot higher or lower

- Kill nullifiers

- Efficiently kill some mobs that must be hit to a specific point

- Kill enemies from far distance (limited by 50m)

So overall peacemaker is, basically, mobs cleaner, and not most efficient one, since, say, saryn just does it way faster and way more efficient. 

And after all you say that it was too strong to nerf it that much?

+ She can't kill somebody behind an obstacle with her peacemaker

+ She can't move or she can but slowly with 1 mod while she uses peacemaker

+ She can only kill mobs into the ring

And her Peacemaker is used over time, it's not a instant ability

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i really hope you'll find a way to revert this DE cause it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to nerf exalted weapons/arcane procs interactions after finally implementing it one year ago.

And i do not speak only for Mesa here although Mesa is probaly my fav frame and i moslty main it right now.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

An "acceptable unintentional nerf". Really?! This makes the dev team seems as if they operate on whims. Like you guys don't properly balance stuff, you just do things randomly and go "well, lets give it a go". Not only have you detracted a significant purpose from the arcane system, but have cheated people who used platinum to purchase said arcanes or gave up their time and effort to farm them, with the expectation that they'd do a certain thing. All of this out of a whim, with no previous notification. Its appaling that the best response that can be mustered is "we'll look into it", when issues similar to this have gone under the radar for long periods of time after an initial response.

DE has a tendency to think "balance = nerf", cheating players of off systems and purchases they've made. If the changes aren't reversed, it'd be quite a bad statement on how systems are looked at and managed by the dev team.

Also, its as if there's an alergic reaction to buffing stuff. All balances come in the form of nerfs (resources gain, wf abilities, arcanes, etc), instead of buffing enemy ai or difficulty. Maybe a good look at how balancing is managed in the game is also warranted, so players don't do less, but rather doing things becomes more challenging. 

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One thing I want to add and consistently add to this discussion is this: As a playerbase, we. should. never. compromise. when. an. impractical. nerf. happens. Never justify a nerf to something in order to regain something. That is just our desperation to plead for leniency whenever something that was functionally practical (and wasn’t op) gets removed in-game. There’s absolutely no rhyme or reason we should step down from our position for build diversity and options that we should find a caveat to make something else less effective just to regain our lost option(s). 

It doesn’t balance the game nor does it retain our experiential rite of passage in climbing the echelons to improve our builds. It’ll only leave a bitter after-taste of “some functionalities that are a shadow of what it used to be.” We don’t want that and we shouldn’t plead for that as players of Warframe. We play the game that we love, and we have every right to trust our senses on what should rightfully and pragmatically be in the game and still be in the game without unexpected nerfs or removals.

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You guys are so afraid of letting people progress through the game and get stronger that it's amazing to see. Warframe is a power fantasy game, has always been, that's why people play it, because you start with weak weapons and powers and you get stronger the more you play.

Getting arcanes (by yourself) means you have to complete some story quests to have access to eidolons, which means you have to spend quite some time playing to get there. Let's not even factor in the time (and luck) required to get 20 arcane velocity to have two full sets. If you didn't spend all that time, you bought it, which means you're spending plat. In both cases players are investing in the game. Part of the endgame (something a lot of people complain the game lacks) is about optimizing builds and pushing them as far as they can go.

Isn't the whole concept of arcanes to be a rare piece of gear that pushes our equipment further than what is normally capable? Shoudn't you be incentivising people to farm for them so that they spend time playing the game? Reducing the amount of good arcanes only means that people will go "should I go looking for arcanes?" and be met with "nah, they barely work with any good wf/weapon, and DE can nerf them at any moment" so why bother fighting eidolons for weeks/months (because that's what would take to farm 20 arcanes of the one you want) if you will keep removing their whole point for existing in the game? Pushing our frames and weapons further.

Stop being afraid of power, embrace it, let people work to get those top tier builds, make it a part of the game instead of always running away from it. This is a PvE game.
And plese, stop ignoring the fact that people need to play for -hundreds/thousands of hours- to get to the point of optimizing builds and looking for top tier content. No new player will go looking for arcanes which means that it's not an easy button for them, it's a very mid to late game content and it demands a heavy investment of both time and money.

Doing this out of nowhere just disregards all that, and that's not nice.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

I get that you are implying that we are somehow being dishonest here, so let me make sure this part is clear.

- Some change introduced with Mainline (still undetermined) caused the issue with Arcane Velocity being proc'd on Peacemaker.
- Initially, the change seemed contained to Peacemaker and that was deemed an acceptable if unintentional 'nerf' (as posted).
- Report surface that a larger problem is occurring with Arcanes across the board and their interaction with Exalted Weapons.
- Internal testing confirms this is so and so the issue is reopened and a wider discussion is had about Arcanes and Exalted Weapons.
- Dev is testing the results of individual Arcanes and abilities in an effort to better make things more consistent, based on the feedback on this thread and other locations.

Given the size of our updates, some things do slip through that cracks, that is sure. There is a lot of process behind this (including triage) and as stated, some changes need to be reverted for the greater good, or perhaps even wide-sweeping reform may be required to fix the previously undiscovered issue. We are currently in the stage of assessment. There is a concern, and we are responding to it.

I really appreciate the candor here. Thanks for the update. But, from a design perspective, a decision has to be made whether exalted weapons will trigger arcanes. Once that decision is made DE needs to stick to it. This game is opaque enough without adding additional layers of obfuscation. No player should have to wonder whether a particular arcane works with a particular exalted weapon. 

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14 minutes ago, KosmicKerman said:

I really appreciate the candor here. Thanks for the update. But, from a design perspective, a decision has to be made whether exalted weapons will trigger arcanes. Once that decision is made DE needs to stick to it. This game is opaque enough without adding additional layers of obfuscation. No player should have to wonder whether a particular arcane works with a particular exalted weapon. 

Where you put the slider on complexity is entirely subjective.  Furthermore, the way DE does things gives a level of granularity to not have to re-balance the entire game because some new widget was added that made a few things stupidly OP.    DE does not have to decide if exalted arcane or not.  The game won't fall apart if they don't.  There user base won't  leave.    I know it is fun dream about ideal and clean systems that are completely understandable by people with an IQ of 70 but complex enough to challenge sheldon...but come on, they don't exist.   Personally, I like to dig and see if somebody else found something I missed or people came together to see if something interesting is possible.   These bugs made features are the spice of life in games like this...and actually quite glad when they show up.    

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Okay, so I have an update for you all:

This is a copy of what is going into the patch notes later today...

Quote

Arcane Change/Fix:
As often happens with Mainline - unexpected bugs popup. In the case of last week's 24.4.0 Mainline Update, we quickly received reports that Arcane Velocity was not working on Mesa's Regulators. Considering Mesa's popularity, it's no coincidence that this was noticed right away. We want to go into detail about what happened between Thursday and now, what's being fixed, and what next steps are:

From Thursday to today:
1) Between Thursday and now - we've had issues internally on intention, which are typically the hardest to communicate when we're also trying to diagnose a bug. As of now, players know we may intend to keep Arcane Velocity from working while Mesa is in Peacemaker
2) Between Thursday and now, many other prior-functioning Arcane + Abilities broke as well, leading to further confusion on intention.

What's being fixed:
Today we found the bug that caused this issue - a single fix intended to let Dispatch Overdrive work on Garuda's Talons indirectly broke many Arcane + Warfame Ability functionalities.

1) We have Restored Arcanes not triggering from Exalted weapons across the board by reverting the change made in Update 24.4.0:
Dispatch Overdrive now applies to Garuda’s Talons when equipped.

Next steps:
While players have restored functionality now (i.e Mesa + Arcane Velocity), it won't be a true solution if you don't know the dev teams intention. We unintentionally broke some arcane interactions and let it ride when we shouldn't have. We're fixing that today! We do think there are some balance issues remaining but it is not our intention to use side-effects to solve.

Balance is a conversation that we constantly have, and we see you having as well. For some people the answer is don't nerf things, buff everything else. This is the path of least resistance for us, as most of the player base is happy when we buff, and angry when we nerf. However this has a few side effects that impact the game as a whole. First, with more damage, the time to kill on enemies is lowered and the value of Crowd Control declines even more (Vauban?!). Higher max damage also means that players with the latest bells and whistles can easily kill bosses in an instant, and overcome any challenge with ease. The more your play, the easier the game gets!

So far we have been kicking the can down the road, accepting power creep and its consequences on the game - and often this game is a 'kill all the things' based game. We've mostly done nerfs on things that could be automated, required no player interaction or removed options from the game by making all other choices bad. We will continue to wrestle with this, but the most important part is when and if we decide major balance changes are needed, we will let you know and it will be the result of a lot of consideration. Design changes like this need to be more tempered and considered.

Thanks for hanging in there through all this confusion. Six years in and we are still learning how to do this.

TL;DR - We found the issue that caused the initial problem, and it is being reverted so that Arcanes will indeed work with Exalted weapons - including Mesa's Peacemakers. However that does not mean that down the road, there will be another look at balance but for now, the change is getting removed with the intent of reviewing Arcanes down the road and trying to decide on uniformity. It's all in the spirit of evolving development.

Thank you all for your patience, and feedback.

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