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As of mainline update 24.4.1 - Ivara can no longer bullet jump while being in prowl when playing solo/host mode only. DE can we please have the bug/feature come back?

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17 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

This is an intentional change, it was missing from the patch notes, however.

The patch notes have been updated to reflect the change, but the initial intent is that Parkour should break invisibility granted by Prowl.

Sorry folks 😞

-Bear

Parkour 'should' break prowl.
That's it folks, if you can't /walk/ to your destination, you don't get to stealth as ivara. Only walking.

Just remove the person that made the decision and fix the bug.
Ivara doing a completely stationary VERTICAL bullet jump is just there for scaling walls, in a way that is PRECISELY in her design description.
It's not a bug it's a FEATURE.

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16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

As a master Spy-hacker I have to ask: in what vault would you ever need to bullet jump AND be invisible at the same time?

'as a master spy-hacker'? Clearly not using Ivara for them all, so definitely not a master at it.

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I'm not fond of the idea of this being a needed change to Ivara's kit, not just because of how bad it feels to play (especially for any long time Ivara players) and how it compares to other stealth frames, but it now makes it so that Ivara is able to give allies a better stealth than she herself can use. If I shoot an ally, they can get a stealth that doesn't hamper their speed or maneuverability... that I myself cannot use. I can stand in it, but I can't hit myself with my own arrow.

I suspect the logic here is because Prowl is tied to energy pool, rather than duration like Loki's invis or even a stealth arrow, but that really doesn't feel all that great alongside other warframes. I understand that Prowl has its own bonuses - pickpocketing, headshot bonus, the Infiltrate mod - but with this change, the kit now feels somewhat incomplete. I honestly wish now that I had someway that I COULD shoot myself with my own arrow, essentially choosing between "utility" stealth (Prowl) and "mobile" stealth (Arrow), but this is obviously a pipe dream.

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

As a master Spy-hacker I have to ask: in what vault would you ever need to bullet jump AND be invisible at the same time?

16 hours ago, xRufus7x said:

Especially since you can just stroll through lasers.

I'm not going to try to speak for other people, but a key part of this, especially in terms of running spy vaults quickly, is the fact that the Infiltrate mod only applies to Prowl. That is one case where it would be useful to bullet jump in stealth and bullet jumps breaking Prowl stops Infiltrates functionality. This gets especially tricky in later rooms with lots of lasers that you would want to be Prowling to not trip (like Lua vaults, which involve quite a lot of parkour) or be seen by (like Kuva spy, which bullet jumping is more useful on due to how dense and multilevel those rooms are).

If the intention is to choose between parkour and stealth, this is potentially interesting gameplay, it just really should have been addressed sooner rather than letting players get used to having a tool for more than a year just to remove it.

5 hours ago, Finchy said:

If parkour and going fast SHOULD break prowl it should just do so briefly instead of having to re enable it every time

1 hour ago, DeejayPwny said:

I think this gets the both of best world IMO. Devs want it to limit mobility, so let it just be a pure toggle that turns back on after a brief delay.

This seems like the best compromise between what players have been used to and the dev intentions, at least in terms of quality of life/efficiency, though I do also wonder if it's not as useful as, with recasting manually, I can at least get Prowl back while still airborne, before hitting the ground.

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On 2019-03-08 at 12:37 PM, [DE]Bear said:

This is an intentional change, it was missing from the patch notes, however.

The patch notes have been updated to reflect the change, but the initial intent is that Parkour should break invisibility granted by Prowl.

Sorry folks 😞

-Bear

2f3505.jpg

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, WedgeMcCloud said:

I'm not going to try to speak for other people, but a key part of this, especially in terms of running spy vaults quickly, is the fact that the Infiltrate mod only applies to Prowl. That is one case where it would be useful to bullet jump in stealth and bullet jumps breaking Prowl stops Infiltrates functionality. This gets especially tricky in later rooms with lots of lasers that you would want to be Prowling to not trip (like Lua vaults, which involve quite a lot of parkour) or be seen by (like Kuva spy, which bullet jumping is more useful on due to how dense and multilevel those rooms are).

Dashwire is your friend here.  Unlike a few of you, I was playing Ivara before she had this ability to bulletjump while in Prowl.  So while I do hate the change, it's not really bothering me playing her.  

1 hour ago, WedgeMcCloud said:

If the intention is to choose between parkour and stealth, this is potentially interesting gameplay, it just really should have been addressed sooner rather than letting players get used to having a tool for more than a year just to remove it.

This I can agree with.  

That said, I must correct a few people on some things.  Mainly that Ivara can still Parkour while staying in Prowl.  She always could.  She can Walk run, double jump, aimglide, air backflip without leaving Prowl.  What she can't do is stay in Prowl while sliding or initiating a bulletjump anymore.  Parkour was never just bulletjumping by itself.  Please don't confuse the two as it spreads misinformation.   The very misinformation I have been trying to correct for the last 3 years. 

Edited by DatDarkOne
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19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

This is an intentional change, it was missing from the patch notes, however.

The patch notes have been updated to reflect the change, but the initial intent is that Parkour should break invisibility granted by Prowl.

Sorry folks 😞

-Bear

That's it? No motivation, no "We did this because things were unbalanced", just a "We want to ruin the game for solo players after they took up to 2 years to build their game around this frame". I say W.. T... F? You do realize this means Ivara has no advantage over other frames anymore, right? Her exalted weapon is a total joke, nobody is going to wait for you to spin your web of dashlines or stand still in your invis bubble. The only usability Ivara had was as a solo frame, and with this change, she essentially becomes inferior to Loki even for that. Great going!

 

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41 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

What she can't do is stay in Prowl while sliding or initiating a bulletjump anymore.  Parkour was never just bulletjumping by itself.  Please don't confuse the two as it spreads misinformation.

I was more using it to mean the stated dev intention, as it was how Bear used the term.

All in all, it doesn't entirely ruin the kit as a whole - dashwires and sound arrows get a chance to be used more strategically - it just makes things slower, which was already more than a bit of a caveat for Ivara.

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Why was something in since her release changed now?  What was game breaking about it?  Why did it take so long to change something "unintended"?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jellycake said:

Bit of an over reaction. I always use Ivara for Spy just fine. In fact quicker than every player in a public mission and I hardly even used the bullet jump as it didn't seem necessary and was a small unneeded risk if you mess up the input.

Might have been a little, but there are spy vaults where bullet jumping was nice. Tried Ivara again last night and set a few alarms off out of habit to finishing these vaults quicker (I level weapons up in spy since it's pretty quick solo).  Sure you can use the zip line, but meh never found that useful. I don't see the "mess up the input" part. If you stopped moving completely, looked where you wanted to go, crouch, and space without hitting w, a, s, d then you never would have broken prowl. It wasn't to move faster through the level itself, was just used to reach higher areas in the vault area.

Also just to give some examples where I actually used bullet jumping in spy vaults since I remember someone asking where it would be used. I'm going to use the names on this post https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=587545211 since i don't actually know the names or if these are the official names.

You can see on the Grineer spy vault "4-1 The Oubliette", bullet jumping right at the beginning. "4-6. Cables, Cables Everywhere!" also had a bullet jump up from the beginning so you didn't have to go around and waste time.

On the Corpus tilesets. "5-6 The Tower" just saved some time bullet jumping when you go through the vent in the elevator and jumping to the top of that center tower. 

On Uranus tilesets. "6-2 The Flood" made it pretty quick also.

While it wasn't needed, it sure made some vaults easier. 

Edited by --Brandt--
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Moscatinka said:

Her exalted weapon is a total joke,

Really Dude?  Come on man.  I understand that you're upset, but that statement is just a bold lie.  

5 minutes ago, YogsZach said:

Why was something in since her release changed now

It was not part of her when she released. It didn't come up until about 1 and half later.  

I want it to be changed back just a much as the rest of you.  But making these statements with false information is not going to convince DE to change it, it will do the opposite.  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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Guess I'll just go back to actually completing spy missions and try out that tranq gun now that's it's got 3 darts... Rip Ivara.

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4 hours ago, symonia said:

'as a master spy-hacker'? Clearly not using Ivara for them all, so definitely not a master at it.

Well I hope you're having a good day in Opposite Land (or would that be, I hope you're having a terrible day in opposite land?)

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while i'll miss the ability, at least it's consistent across game modes now. that said, I wish they would remove the movement speed penalty (and nerf the speed boost on the augment alongside that change). wouldn't affect me much, but it'd be nice QoL.

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Ivara's my most-used frame. I knew of the bullet jump from standing still, but I've never felt the need to use it. Just for my play personally, its removal doesn't bother me at all.

That said, by the time I found out this existed, I'd already figured out how I could play her effectively without it. If someone had taught me about the bullet jump thing back when I was new, things might have turned out differently -- but right now I don't have any problems with Ivara that bullet jumping will solve. I bridge most gaps with jump + aim glide + roll, roll around Link-in-OOT style when I get impatient crossing a room, and strategically break prowl when necessary. If I screw up and get noticed, I sleep arrow everything nearby and take them out, and wall climbing has more utility than some of my friends give it credit for.

1 hour ago, --Brandt-- said:

While it wasn't needed, it sure made some vaults easier. 

In spy missions, my brother plays Loki and I play Ivara. He'll get to a vault sometimes where he has to go vertical and strategically fall around some lasers or take vents, but I get to walk in through the front door. Similarly, I'll get to a vault sometimes and it's one where he can bullet jump past half of it, but I have to wall climb or use the vents. The number of vaults we find convenient vs inconvenient is about the same, and I think that Ivara vs Loki "convenience balance" is a good thing.

2 minutes ago, Kherae said:

while i'll miss the ability, at least it's consistent across game modes now. that said, I wish they would remove the movement speed penalty (and nerf the speed boost on the augment alongside that change). wouldn't affect me much, but it'd be nice QoL.

I'd be happy if the augment only addressed lasers and the movement speed boost was adjusted in prowl by default. Before getting the augment, the lasers force you to learn certain paths through the vaults. Taking lasers out of the equation for me was a "score, now I get to learn faster ways through here" kind of moment. I don't feel like the movement speed is justified the same way though.

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movement speed boost is affected by strength. I would rather keep that to a degree.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Kherae said:

movement speed boost is affected by strength. I would rather keep that to a degree.

This is something that a vast majority don't realize when they play Ivara.  This is mostly due to them building her with negative power strength as they would Loki and just never notice it.  This is the very reason my Tenchu Assassin general purpose Ivara build has 200 power strength.  

Some might say why have PS that high unless you're using Artemis.  The answer is simple.  Power Strength effects every ability she has except for Quiver.  Since I don't just use one ability, but all of them it makes sense. Especially when using Infiltrate augment as a speed boost.  😄  

 

Edited by DatDarkOne

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the only corrupted mod my ivara uses is a rank 4 fleeting expertise, and that's with primed continuity. With good reason. =^.^=

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21 minutes ago, Kherae said:

movement speed boost is affected by strength. I would rather keep that to a degree.

If Infiltrate's movement speed bonus was moved into baseline Prowl, that scaling would likely be moved with it.

My personal preference, though, would instead be to have the movement speed increase on Infiltrate replaced with ability to sprint and bullet jump in stealth. The movement speed increase is not particularly fantastic in my opinion, even with high ability strength, as the increase works on the 25% increase to the reduced Prowl speed. It would require something like 240% ability strength to start to surpass her movement speed outside of Prowl. It currently only provides a pure movement increase along Dashwires, which gets to be hilariously fast, but if I'm going to be using Dashwires with a high ability strength build, I'm probably going to be using Empowered Quiver instead.

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While tweaking her prowl movement speed penalty could be an improvement over what we have now, honestly it doesn't do much for me compared to getting bullet jumps back.  Parkour is one the most exciting things in this game and and it feels more stealthy to me than running around  real fast.

I'm adapting, and Ivara is still my favorite stealth frame, but she's lost a step. 

DE please develop the bug into a feature.

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1 hour ago, WedgeMcCloud said:

If Infiltrate's movement speed bonus was moved into baseline Prowl, that scaling would likely be moved with it.

My personal preference, though, would instead be to have the movement speed increase on Infiltrate replaced with ability to sprint and bullet jump in stealth. The movement speed increase is not particularly fantastic in my opinion, even with high ability strength, as the increase works on the 25% increase to the reduced Prowl speed. It would require something like 240% ability strength to start to surpass her movement speed outside of Prowl. It currently only provides a pure movement increase along Dashwires, which gets to be hilariously fast, but if I'm going to be using Dashwires with a high ability strength build, I'm probably going to be using Empowered Quiver instead.

I do like that idea...bullet jump and sprint in infiltrate...

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I suppose the real question now is which other frames will lose core aspects of their kit due to obvious mistakes in coding, only to have it denied as being intentional, when there's no possible reason for it to be intentional other than sheer callousness and loathing of the community and the players that use that frame, let alone like it.

Well, I suppose there is the possiblity that non-ivara players were getting upset that ivara, the frame designed for all things stealth, is the best stealth frame. That could make sense.
It's certainly not uncommon for ivara players to do spy vaults quickly and flawlessly rather than leave it to players that try to yolo them and ruin things for everybody, and people still manage to get salty about that.

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one of the major issues for it, is that in some areas you just have to do the stationary vertical bullet jump to get up there - you COULD use your zipwire arrow, but there's always the chance it will decide to bullet jump you off of that, so bullet jump breaking stealth /automatically destroys a significant amount of your kit's viability/.

Besides which, there were numerous times when a patch, hotfix, update etc would break this aspect of prowl, and then they'd fix it, because of course they'd fix it, it's a bug, it's not meant to happen.

To try to say it's intentional now is just ridiculous.

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Posted (edited)

Hell, if there was some actual reason that doesn't break logic like "parkour should break stealth" does, when it defies how so much of the movement mechanics work in this game that /don't/ break the stealth -
some sort of actual, considered reason, like balance (with proper points behind it), then it wouldn't be such an infuriating, incensing insult.

 

Edited by symonia
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On 2019-03-08 at 9:05 PM, BlindStalker said:

Ivara was released back in Dec 03, 2015

Really? 

#*!% me that is way longer than expected... It feels like yesterday wtf... 

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