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As of mainline update 24.4.1 - Ivara can no longer bullet jump while being in prowl when playing solo/host mode only. DE can we please have the bug/feature come back?

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3 hours ago, lexandritte said:

Coptering is a bad example because bullet jumping and Parkour 2.0 is the direct result of people finding the bug, exploitng the S#&$ out of it, having fun, enjoyable game and DE going "ok since you like to go fast we can make a better way to do it". 

-_- the way you described makes it the PERFECT example. It's almost an identical situation to the current issue with Ivara:

Everyone exploits it and gets used it (both Ivara and coptering)
The fix is a result of people finding and using the bug (both Ivara and coptering)
Having fun and using it to the point of it becoming the normal (both Ivara and coptering)

DE also didn't say that. They took a look at both examples and said: "Ok, this is broken and a bug, lets fix that".

 

Both examples are basically the EXACT same situation. Both are bugs that where unintended that players got so used to and found fun and it became the norm as how to play and DE fixed both bugs. I really, really don't see the big deal with the fix seriously. If you miss the bug so much, then just honestly leave the game dude.
That's what people did when the melee change came and they couldn't live without coptering. But otherwise, stop complaining and saying this is a different situation cause it's not. It's not nerfing Ivara cause nerfing involves moving her from one powerful INTENDED state to a lower powered INTENDED state. Ivara has just been fixed because she was moved from a broken UNINTENDED state to an INTENDED state. That is the definition of a fix, get over it.

You all need to get used to this properly fixed Ivara cause that's the way she was intended...

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You could bullet jump with her before this? Didn't know that. Even when playing solo I'd played with the mind of 'Dont bullet jump'. With Zenurik, a good build and energy management, where you find a little spot to hunker down out of sight, for a void dash recharge/energy pad, her Invisibility is effectively endless. The more limited Movement abilities with max Stealth and still achieving your objectives is a nice challenge to me. Its thematic of the 'patient hunter', which is what she is.

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As far as "lol that's not what it was intended for, just because it perfectly fits their story, image and playstyle, smh just get over it it's a bug", from /ANYBODY/, consider the following:

Trinity's blessing was designed to heal all warframes within its range.
People are currently using it to heal eidolon lures out on the plains, among other things.
Clearly that's a bug that needs to be removed.

Volt's shield is meant to add /some/ damage to your shots, while being small enough that it doesn't make you utterly impervious to all enemy shots.
People are not only stacking them on each other to add obscene amounts of damage, they're casting them all around themselves and their group, even with range totally minimised, and being totally immune to all shots.
That is therefore a bug.

What's that, everybody uses them like that, because those are their features? No, they're clearly bugs.

In the same way that 'parkour is meant to break stealth' on Ivara's prowl, yet there she goes jumping and double jumping and rolling. 
She can't slide without breaking stealth... but she can slide on her line without breaking stealth. Why? 
Is it because without those things, she'd be so incredibly inconvenienced compared to other frames?
If parkour broke her stealth, you wouldn't be able to jump on or off her line without breaking stealth.

If parkour breaks her stealth, nobody would play her, because she'd only be able to walk places. Even crouching and moving without breaking stealth would be questionable.
Instead, she's allowed those things because A. it makes it possible to have fun while playing her and B. it suits her.

A stationary horizontal jump is useless, it'd be faster just to walk, jump and roll in that direction. A stationary vertical jump however is just incredibly practical.
It means that, in some rooms, you can stop, look pretty much directly up, and get somewhere, instead of needing to use 2, 3, 4 or 5 zipwire arrows just because of how narrow the room is, or how sheer the angle is to get up to where you want to go.

Even if you're built for maximum energy and efficiency, you still chew through energy when you have to use lots of arrows.
It also limits the way you use your weapons - If you want to stay in stealth, you lose a weapon slot. On most guns, that means forfeiting a considerable amount of firepower. 


What remains as a possibility for removing it, after all this time, and all the times they FIXED this feature after breaking it, is that DE are getting complaints from non-Ivara players/those without Ivara that it makes her 'too good' at spy vaults, and that they're finally listening to them.
Spy vaults.
Her main purpose.
The purpose she was made for.
The thing you have to do to get her, that she is the best at.
That she was given an augment for, because its her thing.


Meanwhile, people are looking at the amalgam mods and finding that, hang on, they can enable her to move OBSCENELY fast in prowl.
You know, the thing she's not supposed to do. She's not even the only frame that can set up those absurdities.
Has that been fixed? 



Who knows. Maybe DE are just tired of fixing Ivara's prowl whenever they break it and finally just decided to leave it as an 'intentional' nerf.
Admitting as much would be irritating, but understandable.
Nobody wants to continuously have to fix something that just keeps breaking for no apparent reason.

Rather than trying to lay it off as "parkour should break stealth" when that clearly doesn't happen with most of what she does and what she's supposed to do, almost as if it were just to insult everybody.

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As for coptering being in anywhere near the same league, compare how far a totally stationary bullet jump can get you, to being able to cross half the plains of eidolon in a single go.
Then just drop that idea entirely.

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An actually decent idea would be DE just adding it in as a part of the infiltrator augment.
No other changes to the mod, no increase to the drain, just make it so that you /have/ to have the augment taking up a spot to be able to use the feature.

That would at least be acceptable for everything that's been said and done over the years and now.

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3 hours ago, symonia said:

Even if you're built for maximum energy and efficiency, you still chew through energy when you have to use lots of arrows

In actual practice the energy usage from spamming arrows is practically negligible.  In my experience the only things that have really chewed through my energy was taking damage while in Prowl.  For example, arc traps or Vampire effect Nightmare missions.  

3 hours ago, symonia said:

It also limits the way you use your weapons - If you want to stay in stealth, you lose a weapon slot. On most guns, that means forfeiting a considerable amount of firepower. 

This is actually a non-factor unless you go negative power strength.  With at least 100% PS, all headshot while in Prowl receive a damage boost that completely nullifies the potential damage lost of mod slot from adding silence mod.  Anything over 100% PS and having that silence mod is actually increasing damage over what the weapon would normally have without that mod.  The above quoted statement is only true if the build has negative power strength. 

I just wanted to address some of the possible misconceptions in the above statements.  Over the 3 years of playing Ivara almost exclusively have given me a better understanding of how the stats and her powers really work.  

4 hours ago, symonia said:

Rather than trying to lay it off as "parkour should break stealth" when that clearly doesn't happen with most of what she does and what she's supposed to do, almost as if it were just to insult everybody.

I will agree that the response given as reasoning for the "fix" was complete bull!@$%@#.  

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11 hours ago, Arniox said:

-_- the way you described makes it the PERFECT example. It's almost an identical situation to the current issue with Ivara:

Everyone exploits it and gets used it (both Ivara and coptering)
The fix is a result of people finding and using the bug (both Ivara and coptering)
Having fun and using it to the point of it becoming the normal (both Ivara and coptering)

DE also didn't say that. They took a look at both examples and said: "Ok, this is broken and a bug, lets fix that".

 

Both examples are basically the EXACT same situation. Both are bugs that where unintended that players got so used to and found fun and it became the norm as how to play and DE fixed both bugs. I really, really don't see the big deal with the fix seriously. If you miss the bug so much, then just honestly leave the game dude.
That's what people did when the melee change came and they couldn't live without coptering. But otherwise, stop complaining and saying this is a different situation cause it's not. It's not nerfing Ivara cause nerfing involves moving her from one powerful INTENDED state to a lower powered INTENDED state. Ivara has just been fixed because she was moved from a broken UNINTENDED state to an INTENDED state. That is the definition of a fix, get over it.

You all need to get used to this properly fixed Ivara cause that's the way she was intended...

She was in the "unintended" state for two freaking years. I wouldn't have any issues if they fixed it within first month or so, but at this point this is how everyone who plays Ivara learned to play Ivara. 

Regarding coptering, Steve said outright in one of the documentaries that coptering was what pushed Parkour 2.0. Players wanted to go fast, they gave them official way to go fast. Players wanted to stealth bullet jump? "Bug" stayed for two years. And only got "fixed" when a big mainline update involving a lot of movement tech got dropped and overwrote something in her code again.

Speaking of "intended design", what if next thing they would "fix" are Volt shields boosting Operator damage? Or Adarzas boosting Operator damage? Or void jumping at Eidolon head counting as headshot, even though you are not using your amp? 

They kept Ivaras sleep arrow working as tranqualiser even though it surely wasn't intended, just using the same "sleep" code. Even balanced it to fit. 

 

"Bullet jumping stealth is not intended because you are supposed to be stealthy" is boolsheet because you can still double jump, wall dash, ground slam with Jat Kittag, combat roll without breaking Prowl. So clearly it's "Not intended" not for stealthy lore reasons. 

 

I'll say it again - only time I bullet jump stealthed is when I need to fooking bullet jump stealthed. Spy vaults where I need to go through lasers and decloaking now trips the alarms, and fooking sawgaws and other animals who now freak out when I try to get to a vantage point. 

 

This is not a fix, it's nerf, because in the game that's all about "going as fast as you can" Ivara now plays cumbersome while doing what's she's supposed to do - be stealthy. 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

She was in the "unintended" state for two freaking years. I wouldn't have any issues if they fixed it within first month or so, but at this point this is how everyone who plays Ivara learned to play Ivara. 

This is the problem I have with the "Fix" myself.  

14 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

"Bullet jumping stealth is not intended because you are supposed to be stealthy" is boolsheet because you can still double jump, wall dash, ground slam with Jat Kittag, combat roll without breaking Prowl. So clearly it's "Not intended" not for stealthy lore reasons.

As a long time Ivara user who knew that she could still parkour while in Prowl without bulletjumping, I found this reason given for the change to just be insulting. @[DE]Bear Sorry but it is.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-03-08 at 10:37 PM, [DE]Bear said:

the initial intent is that Parkour should break invisibility granted by Prowl.

Let me get this right:

Dodge-roll - not parkour.

Wall jumping - not parkour.

Double jump - not parkour.

Putting out a bit more force with your thighs - 10/10 Best Parkour Ever.

I feel a necessity to point out that Ivara was able to do a cloaked bullet jump ONLY form a stand-still position. So pretty much the only condition to break Prowl was to hold *crouch*+*directional key*. And it was fine.

You've made this warframe while referencing to a Tree Frog. The frog that pretty much excels at bullet jumps from stand-still position.

You want to hinder her mobility - remove wall jumping, that would make sense. Jump - cling to a wall - hold still - jump - cling again. Logical.

Tell the guy who decided it was a "bug" that he should look into the frame origins from time to time. And no - not "Ivar the Boneless" part of origins, thank you in advance.

EDIT: Ok, I'm not the smartest person. Ivar was a remarkable archer, yet was very weak physically (fragile bones, obviously), which fits with Ivara's abilities and her relatively small healthpool. Apologies.

Edited by Morelle
Correcting an incorrect statement
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12 hours ago, Arniox said:

Ivara has just been fixed because she was moved from a broken UNINTENDED state to an INTENDED state

Sometimes the definition of "INTENDED" itself can be discussed and debated. Especially in this case, where this "bug" was allowing her to have better vertical mobility. It was not helpful or fast in terms of horizontal maneuvering - dodge-roll makes the job faster. Also she still has Dashwire as a vertical mobility tool, but using it instead of stand-still BJ... ok, nevermind... Bullet Jump is just an unnecessary complication.

12 hours ago, Arniox said:

You all need to get used to this properly fixed Ivara

If you're not with us - do not interfere, brother.

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1 hour ago, lexandritte said:

Spy vaults where I need to go through lasers and decloaking now trips the alarms

Couldn't go past that - there's no vault in the whole game that REQUIRES you to bullet jump.

Your intentions are just yet your arguments are bringing the case down.

1 hour ago, lexandritte said:

the game that's all about "going as fast as you can"

I honestly hope your girlfriend never hears this from you.

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51 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is the problem I have with the "Fix" myself.  

Look at this from a different perspective: "Fixed after two years" - PRIME CONFIRMED!

Also it never felt like a bug - it made sense. When I first discovered it I was like "Wait, what the..." and then I figured out that the deal is not with the jump itself but with the "friction" you get from dragging your stealthy buttocks over the floor - disrupts the cloak and all that. As for the gliding during the flight - I dunno, going too fast maybe, so wind blows the skirt up and all that? XD

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Morelle said:

Look at this from a different perspective: "Fixed after two years" - PRIME CONFIRMED!

That is exactly what I was thinking as soon as the change happened.  Edit: Also the gliding in flight thing is a weak excuse too as you can recast prowl right after leaving the ground.  😄 

Now on to something just as important.  WHAT the Hell is going on with her skirt?

uuDe5Py.jpg

I had previously missed this as I was using my White color scheme during the last updates.  Don't wait two years to fix this DE.  

Edited by DatDarkOne

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That is exactly what I was thinking as soon as the change happened.  Edit: Also the gliding in flight thing is a weak excuse too as you can recast prowl right after leaving the ground.  😄 

Now on to something just as important.  WHAT the Hell is going on with her skirt?

uuDe5Py.jpg

I had previously missed this as I was using my White color scheme during the last updates.  Don't wait two years to fix this DE.  

They're aware of it. [DE]Bear has replied in the other Ivara bug thread. A fix will come later, for now patience sister.

I'll admit, I was greatly enjoying the Ivara eye-candy that the other bug thread sparked from my huntress sisters, yours too.

Edited by BlindStalker

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21 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You left out option 3.  

JNJCy5u.jpg

And before you say something like I don't know what I'm talking about...…..

Zt90c06.jpg

Well there you have it folks...

I am not a main ivara, but i think i left out by saying something you think is stupid...

whatever man, i am just full of this "main" frame thing

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Morelle said:

If you're not with us - do not interfere, brother.

😂

Alright, sure. 

If DE adds it back as a feature, then I'm all for it. But they've stated numerous times, no matter how long ago that it's a bug and not intended... 

Edited by Arniox

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So many people saying this ruins the frame, or wrecks her style, or whatever.

It doesn't.

What it DOES do is force you to use the frame the way she was intended.  If you need to bullet jump across a gap...dashwire.  Bullet up to a ledge above, 45 degree dashwire.  Use her skills people, Ivara is still an excellent solo frame.

Ivara is also, with silenced weapons, a great frame for a lot of high end party content as well.  Between reviving players w/o worry while invis, running around with a fully silenced sortie level weapon killing everything, or just being in a small group of friends doing the sortie spy mission while they sit back and play with various enemies...etc and so on, she's still a very capable frame.  She just requires you to play her as intended now.

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29 minutes ago, Arniox said:

But they've stated numerous times, no matter how long ago that it's a bug and not intended... 

Ok, cool - that's why some people are trying to make them reconsider the approach. Re-think the concept a little and such.

What I'm doing here is trying to offer logical reasons for the "bug" to be turned into a "feature". Also for some mockery along the way, obviously. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cerlinad said:

Bullet up to a ledge above

Ok, that's just a fine piece right there.

@[DE]Bear can we allow (while cloaked) bullet jumps exclusively from a still position and exclusively upwards? With a really small angle, 10-15 degrees from axis or something. Would be fantastic. She does have a tiny pinch of frog in her, after all.

12 minutes ago, Cerlinad said:

Ivara is also, with silenced weapons, a great frame for a lot of high end party content as well.

Easy there, Columbus 😃

We all know she's a walking cheese, especially with the introduction of [Sharpshooter]

She can solo Spy, Exterminate, Rescue, Assassination, Kuva Flood, Capture, etc. without a SINGLE energy cookie. And if your aim is good and dodging is on point - you don't even need to cheese anymore 'cause she's the beast.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-03-11 at 8:14 PM, Arniox said:

Eh idk. She's extremely solo based. 

Although tbh if this game wants to cater to everyone, an almost completely solo frame is really good to have. 

If they rework her at all, they should keep the power of solo but allow her to also do just as well in public. 

I didn't mean "rework". That's a word that I don't want to use with Ivara. But quality of life buffs would be more of what I hope for her. Again, that's going into a different discussion and I'll save those ideas later, for when her prime is coming up.

I don't want to take away her solo capability, I want to see her solo capability better enhanced. Because I'm concerned she's starting to age and she's having trouble keeping up with more difficult situations or newer content. Ivara's still capable, I just want her capability to be future guarded against things. And she performs as is in groups, relatively alright.

On 2019-03-12 at 4:32 AM, Arniox said:

I've had no trouble with Ivara and I always played her with the original intention. Cancelled prowl manually when I needed to jump or parkour and then reactivate when I'm not. I find it almost amusing that so many people MASSIVELY relied on a bug... 

It was of great convenience when it was around. If you watch VoidForged's video with him fighting against Lephantis at sortie level you can obviously tell the advantage of being able to bullet jump from standstill was rather important to getting back on to dashwires without being seen. And when you're playing solo and you're the only target, it's best not to get seen on more difficult missions. But Lepantis is a horribly buggy boss that really does need to be fixed, since he can bug out and sometimes see through stealth. 

Was it convenient ? Definitely. Was it loved by most Ivara players? Probably. Would I like to get the bug turned into a feature? Yes of course I would. Whether DE says yes is another matter. I'm not holding my breath though. I can learn to deal with it on dashwires or using my operator to void dash to relocate her if I really need to. But I really would like DE to really think about giving back this bug, but as an actual full feature that works with clients too. 

16 hours ago, symonia said:

Spy vaults.
Her main purpose.
The purpose she was made for.

To be fair, I can't think of a spy vault where Ivara can't do because she desperately relies on bullet jumping to the path or where it's not possible to actually throw up a dashwire. If there is one, please post a picture of the spy vault and I'm sure there is a route in which she can handle it, with or without dashwires. She hasn't lost the ability to do spy vaults, it just might require using a different route or remembering where the camera is.

 

16 hours ago, symonia said:

Meanwhile, people are looking at the amalgam mods and finding that, hang on, they can enable her to move OBSCENELY fast in prowl.
You know, the thing she's not supposed to do. She's not even the only frame that can set up those absurdities.
Has that been fixed? 

I'm not really sure if Amalgam bullet diffusion helps much to be honest. Not just Ivara. Like what that mod does is that it will increase the dodge speed yes, but you actually don't travel as far as you normally would, without the mod (you actually stop short 2m of where you normally would without the mod). It has a noticeable effect on prowl, but I'm not really sure it's one that helps her. It's hard for me to say, cause I've only tried testing it a bit recently and I'm only sort of noticing a small difference. It's going to be a while before it registers an opinion on me. Arcane consequence has a much greater impact on Ivara than amalgam barrel diffusion. I made a video thread somewhere else if anyone wants to bother looking for it.

16 hours ago, symonia said:

Rather than trying to lay it off as "parkour should break stealth" when that clearly doesn't happen with most of what she does and what she's supposed to do, almost as if it were just to insult everybody.

Agreed.

 

5 hours ago, lexandritte said:

Or Adarzas boosting Operator damage?

Actually that was changed. Adarzas can't buff operator damage anymore.

in Hotfix 22.13.3: " Adarza Kavat’s Cat’s Eye Critical Chance Buff no longer apply to Operators. "

5 hours ago, lexandritte said:

"Bullet jumping stealth is not intended because you are supposed to be stealthy" is boolsheet because you can still double jump, wall dash, ground slam with Jat Kittag, combat roll without breaking Prowl. So clearly it's "Not intended" not for stealthy lore reasons. 

Agreed too.

5 hours ago, lexandritte said:

She was in the "unintended" state for two freaking years. I wouldn't have any issues if they fixed it within first month or so, but at this point this is how everyone who plays Ivara learned to play Ivara. 

Big agree too. 612+ days is a long time to leave a "bug" around.

2 hours ago, Cerlinad said:

So many people saying this ruins the frame, or wrecks her style, or whatever.

It doesn't.

What it DOES do is force you to use the frame the way she was intended.  If you need to bullet jump across a gap...dashwire.  Bullet up to a ledge above, 45 degree dashwire.  Use her skills people, Ivara is still an excellent solo frame.

Ivara is also, with silenced weapons, a great frame for a lot of high end party content as well.  Between reviving players w/o worry while invis, running around with a fully silenced sortie level weapon killing everything, or just being in a small group of friends doing the sortie spy mission while they sit back and play with various enemies...etc and so on, she's still a very capable frame.  She just requires you to play her as intended now.

Also agreed.

 

Edited by BlindStalker
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6 hours ago, Morelle said:
7 hours ago, lexandritte said:

 

Couldn't go past that - there's no vault in the whole game that REQUIRES you to bullet jump.

Your intentions are just yet your arguments are bringing the case down.

Grineer sealab spy vault with elevator, it's all about climbing up. You can do it without bullet jumping, but then again you can do it without Ivara. I prefer to use Ivara and when I use Ivara I prefer to bullet jump. 

 

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6 hours ago, Morelle said:
7 hours ago, lexandritte said:

 

I honestly hope your girlfriend never hears this from you.

Going fast doesn't mean finishing quick.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

Grineer sealab spy vault with elevator, it's all about climbing up.

Plenty of platforms and caves in the walls there, since you're into details.

Plus it's the easiest spy mission ever, but it's an interesting puzzle to solve.

9 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

Going fast doesn't mean finishing quick

Thanks for the enlightenment.

EDIT: let's just not flood in here, ok? It can still be a decent thread.

Edited by Morelle

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My point was more that TECHNICALLY I don't need to use Prowl BJ.

Technically I can slowly walk in Prowl through "intended" solution. 

Technically I can dashwires to climb on an angle. 

Technically I can use operator void dashing.

Technically I can do spy missions as a pink Rhino.

Technically I can solve all Corpus spy missions by taking out everything in the vault with Saryn Miasma or an Ignis. 

Technically I can do not do any spy missions or preservation and spend hours in region chat discussing gender politics, but it doesn't mean that I am technically having any fun playing the game. Which I technically otherwise enjoy and would technically like to keep enjoying and technically throwing money at the platinum shop. 

 

Technically.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, lexandritte said:

Grineer sealab spy vault with elevator, it's all about climbing up. You can do it without bullet jumping, but then again you can do it without Ivara. I prefer to use Ivara and when I use Ivara I prefer to bullet jump. 

 

 

7 hours ago, lexandritte said:

Technically I can slowly walk in Prowl through "intended" solution. 

Is it this grineer spy vault? This is the only one with an elevator that I'm aware of. I use 2 dashwires and go right through lasers as the intended solution.  Note, I didn't make this video for this specific response, I actually made it as a general reminder to everyone that Ivara isn't as hindered in spy as everyone makes her out to be.

Yes, I know you can also bullet jump up twice and go through the tunnel to the left at the top level to finally reach the console and that potentially this can be done to avoid the sentry drones. But you can also go through the lasers with Ivara and her augment. And Ivara doesn't need operator void dash to get up there (she doesn't for any spy puzzle). I personally only use operator void dash for combat critical situations (or if I'm absolutely lazy with moving her to a better position). Spy doesn't count as combat critical situations to me. There's more than one route on spy puzzles (on most of them anyways, Kuva fortress spy is just sadly boring because it's one of the few that lacks variety that I've found).

Do you really consider that an inferior way of doing the spy vault with Ivara? Is using 2 dashwires that bad to you? That you're not willing to use Ivara's utility arrows with the rest of her kit? Ivara plays differently than other frames. To be expected given how her invisibility works. But other frames have weird quirks about them that are only specific to them.

I'm not trying to be pretentious, I'm genuinely wondering if using dashwires is really that problematic to you.

 

 

Edited by BlindStalker
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