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BlindStalker

As of mainline update 24.4.1 - Ivara can no longer bullet jump while being in prowl when playing solo/host mode only. DE can we please have the bug/feature come back?

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I go through the elevator shaft itself, it's straight up (entrance is in the water puddle below). Technically can run up the wall, but bullet jump is the core of warframe movement system, it just feels smoother. 

I don't mind using dashwires, my problem with them is that they don't allow you to go straight up. In particular when doing animal conservation and trying to get up on the mushrooms to get the sawgaws - need to juggle between tranq rifle and casting dashwires back and forth, need to move away from mushroom to get a dashwire to go to mushroom top, by the time you run dashwire up sawgaw files over to another mushroom. Where's with bullet jump it's up, up, shoot, done. 

 

Can't operator dash cause Zenurik dash kills animals. 

 

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and an ivara player for 2 years, i knew it was a bug and i treated it as a bug and didnt use it, use ur frigin dash wires people! its eather u go fast and have no stealth or u go slow and have all of the stealth, this is to give u a reason to use loki and ash, witch r worse stealth frames... 

just because u guys abused a bug and they r finaly fixing bugs, doesnt mean u should keep it, its up to the devs, if it makes u quit using the frame, when u can roll and zipline everywhere, then thats ur problem.... i on the other hand will keep using her for spies 

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On 2019-03-12 at 10:02 PM, Arniox said:

But that's a different situation entirely. Bullet jumping is part of the core game play as it was originally intended for.

Whereas Ivara's situation was a bug and was never intended. It was not a part of play style and never was meant to be. People just got used to exploiting the bug and now complain when they fix it. 

 

 

On 2019-03-13 at 6:58 AM, lexandritte said:

Coptering is a bad example because bullet jumping and Parkour 2.0 is the direct result of people finding the bug, exploitng the S#&$ out of it, having fun, enjoyable game and DE going "ok since you like to go fast we can make a better way to do it". 

 

Ivara's "bug" has been around for two years. It might as well has been a feature at this point, because removing it is not "fixing" Ivara, it's just nerfing her, since every Ivara player learned to play her with prowl bullet jumping as a mobility tool.

Bullet jumping was added as part of Parkour 2.0 in 2015 as a direct response to the coptering "bug". Overall effect: Everyone got the ability to jump farther and faster, without having to rely on using certain melee weapons. Coptering had been around for several years before that, and was in itself a bug that was not intended by DE, they just embraced it and made it a general feature. It was never actually intended originally by DE. It was effectively a limited-to-certain-weapons bug. Had DE fixed it like I said, you'dve all complained about it, much like y'all did with spin-to-win. And much like we, the Ivara playing side of the playerbase, are in general (not everyone, true) complaining.

Ivara's stationary non-prowl-breaking-bullet jump may have been unintended by DE originally, but two years later it's been regarded as part of her kit and not a bug. Whichever way you look at it though, DE have now nerfed Ivara by "fixing" it to break prowl. There was no actual need to do so, being able to bullet jump from a stationary position without breaking stealth was NOT game breaking. It's a straight nerf.

As I said before, DE could have just officially made it a feature and saved dev work in "fixing" it (just by saying in a patch log that it's now officially a feature), without pissing off any members of the community, which they have now done. Reverting back to the "bug" would solve that issue.

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On 2019-03-14 at 9:55 AM, BlindStalker said:

Is it this grineer spy vault? This is the only one with an elevator that I'm aware of. I use 2 dashwires and go right through lasers as the intended solution.  Note, I didn't make this video for this specific response, I actually made it as a general reminder to everyone that Ivara isn't as hindered in spy as everyone makes her out to be.

...

Do you really consider that an inferior way of doing the spy vault with Ivara? Is using 2 dashwires that bad to you? That you're not willing to use Ivara's utility arrows with the rest of her kit? Ivara plays differently than other frames. To be expected given how her invisibility works. But other frames have weird quirks about them that are only specific to them.

I legitimately just screamed "WHAT" seeing this video. It never occurred to me that Infiltrate would work for moving through that laser "floor". I've had a lot of trouble wish using dashwires at that sort of angle, so I definitely need some practice to see what the limits are (though I have a feeling it has more to do with where I'm standing rather than the angle I'm firing at). Still, it's fantastic to see a solution that quick in action and all the different ways people solve vaults with the different parts of her kit.

I kind of feel bad for Noise Arrow...

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31 minutes ago, WedgeMcCloud said:

I kind of feel bad for Noise Arrow...

Noise arrow makes solo interception missions a breeze.  Just go into Prowl or cloak bubble as soon as the mission starts so he enemies never see you. Then use Noise arrow to move the enemies.  

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On 2019-03-14 at 9:05 AM, lexandritte said:

I go through the elevator shaft itself, it's straight up (entrance is in the water puddle below). Technically can run up the wall, but bullet jump is the core of warframe movement system, it just feels smoother.  

Oh I see you prefer the actual elevator shaft. I'm not really a fan of that route myself personally because of how much wall climbing there is to finally reach the top. I know the bullet jump would've helped you get a headstart at it though. The route I showed with the dashwires for that same vault was just to show another way that Ivara can do that vault. Do you think it's a route you would try? I only ask because we have to entertain the the idea that our huntress might not get back the bullet jump in prowl. I want it back as a feature as much as anyone. But knowing other routes for Ivara is also something I keep in mind too to help her for spy vault runs.

On 2019-03-14 at 9:05 AM, lexandritte said:

In particular when doing animal conservation and trying to get up on the mushrooms to get the sawgaws - need to juggle between tranq rifle and casting dashwires back and forth, need to move away from mushroom to get a dashwire to go to mushroom top, by the time you run dashwire up sawgaw files over to another mushroom. Where's with bullet jump it's up, up, shoot, done.  

Oh I see you've upgrade zenurik with some of the offensive attack waybounds. Well, my recommendation is actually to use other parts of Ivara's kit when hunting sawgaws. Combo navigator with the tranquilizer gun, and navigate the dart into the bird. The tranquilizer dart will permanently sleep the bird, it will never wake up until you capture it. So it will actually stay there permanently and give you plenty of time to dashwire up to it, or actually use void dash if you want. Technically you can do this same setup for other animals (not recommended for animals that take multiple shots like kubrodons, stovers, horrasque). But usually sleep arrows are easier in most cases. I also have a negative range Ivara for getting 3 perfect pobbler captures for testing. Video to show what I mean, it's a really good setup for sawgaws, imo.

 

4 hours ago, WedgeMcCloud said:

I legitimately just screamed "WHAT" seeing this video. It never occurred to me that Infiltrate would work for moving through that laser "floor". I've had a lot of trouble wish using dashwires at that sort of angle, so I definitely need some practice to see what the limits are (though I have a feeling it has more to do with where I'm standing rather than the angle I'm firing at). Still, it's fantastic to see a solution that quick in action and all the different ways people solve vaults with the different parts of her kit. 

I kind of feel bad for Noise Arrow...

You're welcome 🙂 . Somebody showed me that trick as well ages ago, figured I should've recorded. Ivara can easily bypass the entire laser floor with her augment. That grineer sealab has actually 3 different ways to solve it (not counting Ivara's augment + dashwires).

1. the elevator shaft entrance that lexandritte

2. shooting the water pipes to fill the area with water (which turns on sharkwing, and destroys the camera drones, it takes forever to fill the entire place with water, but it will fill it up and disable the laser floor at the top).

3. Sneaking by the drones and reaching the top where there is an entrance at the top to get to the console.

For dashwires: The path from Ivara's feet to the impact point must be clear to create a zipline. Any obstacles between her feet and the impact point will prevent the zipline from being formed. Ziplines will not form if the line to be created exceeds an angle of 40° from the horizon.

Dashwires can also be created while Ivara is in midair flight.

 

And what @DatDarkOne said for interception.

 

There are probably people who are much better at Ivara solo interception than me, cause I'm still unsure if approach it the correct way.  I know for a fact, people endurance run with Ivara on solo interception. Video from an arby interception I did a while back.

Example, Ivara and me messing around testing something on interception arbitration (I forgot what I was testing). Interception arbitration is really janky (and sometimes broken, so the setup is a bit fragile to do). But normal interception should still be fine.

Edit, you can also use the noise arrows to do certain riven challenges. Example, VoidForged demos this with a riven challenge, cling to wall and kill x amount of enemies.

 

 

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Ivara is outclassed by limbo and huras pooch. It's a combination of unlimited energy and cloaking (when needed) that lets you walk right past everything. This combination also gives you the time to explore alternate routes to get to the console.

[Does not apply to Lua spy, use hydroid for that]

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4 hours ago, TenDen said:

Ivara is outclassed by limbo and huras pooch. It's a combination of unlimited energy and cloaking (when needed) that lets you walk right past everything. This combination also gives you the time to explore alternate routes to get to the console.

[Does not apply to Lua spy, use hydroid for that]

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So I think I'm well overdue for posting here, considering certain previously posted content of mine.

This removal was quite simply the last saving grace of an already needlessly overburdened ability being pulled out from under us.

 

@DatDarkOne suggesting that we adapt is as misleading. The question is not whether we can adapt, the question is whether we should have to adapt when comparing the uses and functions of Prowl as compared to the greater population of Warframes as a whole.

The truth of the matter is that Prowl has more drawbacks than any other Warframe ability in the game and an augment that merely softens the impediment - hardly as grand a difference as, say, Mesa's Waltz going from 0 motion to what we have in Prowl tied to a far more impactful ability.

As a purely stealth ability, Prowl is the second worst of all inherent warframe stealths - including Ash, despite Smokescreen being a supplementary part of his kit rather than a core concept  - with the exception of Wukong's Cloud Walker.

Loosely in order of effectiveness versus cost:

  • Octavia has an ability that grants reliable stealth for significant durations with no impediment to movement, energy gain or additional limitations or drawbacks once activated.
  • Loki has an ability that grants reliable stealth for significant durations with no impediment to movement, energy gain or additional limitations or drawbacks once activated.
    • Also has a useful augment to silence all weapons though it is not necessary to remain effectively stealthed.
  • Ivara's Cloak Arrow grants reliable stealth in an area for a medium duration, but can be attached to targets to allow no impediment to movement, energy gain or additional limitations or drawbacks.
    • Note that even with Navigator, Ivara cannot turn around a Cloak Arrow and attach it to herself (from a lazy test I just ran, do correct me if I'm wrong).
  • Ash has an ability that grants reliable stealth for medium durations with no impediment to movement, energy gain or additional limitations or drawbacks once activated.
  • Ivara's Prowl grants persistent stealth for the duration of energy supplies but impedes movement, impedes energy gains and applies several further drawbacks to the player whilst active.
  • Wukong's Cloud Walker grants persistent stealth for the duration of energy supplies but alters movement, impedes energy gains and applies the drawback that the player can no longer attack in this state.

 

Energy Costs of all but the final two contenders in the above list allow for these stealth effects to go on indefinitely when built to do so:

  • Octavia: 18.75 energy for 36.9s stealth extended by up to 49.2 seconds by refreshing during single ability use
  • Loki: 12.5 energy for 29.52s stealth
  • Ivara (Cloak Arrow): 6.25 energy for 29.52s stealth
  • Ash: 8.75 energy for 19.68s stealth

These can all be compensated by the humble Energy Siphon alone. 0.6 energy per second. Something not permitted Prowl and Cloud Walker due to their channeled nature. Therefore, channeling can be considered a drawback of these Stealth abilities.

 

Additional Drawbacks:

Octavia (minus a trivial input to activate, ameliorated by the duration of the ability in addition to stealth buff), Loki and Ash have no drawbacks or impediments to their Stealth abilities. This leaves Ivara's two abilities and Cloud Walker:

  • Cloak Arrow: Is limited to an area, or to avoid this limitation must be shot at an ally as a projectile (not trivial). Cannot attach to self.
    • In consideration of the soft nature of Ivara and the existence of grenades/area hazards, being forced to stay in an area can be a death sentence.
    • Also susceptible to instant dispellation by Nullifying bubbles.
  • Cloud Walker: Increasing costs, slow (albeit free-ranged) movement and inability to attack make this a largely useless ability in general. However, it can serve as a stun/finisher enabler.
  • Prowl: Here we get to the laundry list. Let's begin.
    • ENERGY COSTS
      • Additional energy cost for the simple act of moving (base drain doubled)
      • Additional flat energy cost for each melee strike performed (base 2 per target)
      • Additional flat energy cost for every tick of damage including status proc DoTs and constant damage sources (base 10 per tick)
      • Channeled ability precludes most energy generation effects.
    • MOVEMENT IMPEDIMENTS
      • Significant slow to basic movement.speed.
      • Forbids the use of sprint, slide or bullet jump, all of which break the ability and force a new activation (including the on-cast energy cost)
    • WEAPON (or NOISE) LIMITATION
      • Unsilenced actions break the stealth of the ability temporarily, exposing Ivara but do not force a new activation to return to stealth.
    • BONUS DRAWBACK BECAUSE THEY COULD
      • The additional Pickpocket effect of Prowl can be rendered inconsistent with reduced Power Strength while bonus Strength confers zero benefits.

 

Lovely list, isn't it? And what additional benefits exist? Well, we get:

  • The World's Worst Extra Loot Ability - single target, takes time to activate during which Ivara must stay close to the target and target must stay alive, and as previously mentioned, can 'misfire' for the crime of a sub-100% Power Strength build.
  • A bonus to headshots. Which would be quite nice except it scales pretty terribly due to following the (1 + (x * Power Strength)) model from a mere 40% base bonus.
    • This means that the absolute least isn't reduced damage on headshots under 100%STR (mercifully) but also that the best this benefit offers is a 260% Damage Multiplier at ~400% Power Strength. 
      Not bad, by any means, but consider that Rhino would be granting 300% damage multiplier (100% + (50% * STR)) to all damage, for everyone, not just one person's headshots. And due to the energy concerns - that necessary inefficiency is going to wreak havoc on Ivara's ability to stay Prowled to make use of it.

 

Even if we discount Octavia's plethora of bonus buffs, those paltry (and self-defeating) 'benefits' do not account for the extremity of the drawbacks suffered during Prowl compared to other stealth abilities. The Augment is awful. You get speed back (which could have been baseline improvements) and ignore lasers (which you know how to circumvent due to acquiring Ivara from spies).

 

Ivara deserves better.

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49 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

@DatDarkOne suggesting that we adapt is as misleading.

Not misleading at all. I haven't recommended anyone do anything that I myself have not done.  I played Ivara for a full year plus before the "Bug" was even a thing.  And some of that time was before the Infiltrate Augment was added.  So I know (as have used without both very successfully) that it can be done. 

49 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ivara deserves better.

I agree she does deserve better,  but...….I have previously stated my intent in regards to this topic and the one that was mentioned in you post.  Here goes again.  
 

Quote

 

The only problem I see with doing any of that is the "Too OP must NERF NOW!" crowd that seems to be getting more attention from DE of late.  Taking that into account is one of if not the main reason I'm for not changing Ivara at all.  Due to the very likely forum reactions and possible resulting nerf into the ground of Ivara later aspects.  

Would I like to have some of her drawbacks removed.  Yes I would.  But as of right now, those are the only things holding back the nerf Ivara topics that do come up every now and then.  So I hope you can see the dilemma I have in regards to this topic.  

 

 So while it's inconvenient right now, I'm looking at the longer, bigger picture, as well as the knee jerk reactions of the "Forum Community".  

 

Spoiler

Edit: For those who think I might be reaching when I say that there will be "Must Nerf to OP" topics.  Just think on this.  How many other frames can solo over 90% of the game's content easily?  As well as do over 75-90% of riven challenges without any additional help.  And this is with all the drawbacks that she has.  

 

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1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Not misleading at all. I haven't recommended anyone do anything that I myself have not done.  I played Ivara for a full year plus before the "Bug" was even a thing.  And some of that time was before the Infiltrate Augment was added.  So I know (as have used without both very successfully) that it can be done. 

Yes, I took the liberty of checking your profile. While you have a greater percentage usage of our subject than I, bear in mind that in my case she's managed to outstrip, among other things, vast lazy Ember usage accumulated over the whole time she functioned in her low-level passive cleanup niche. I'm not speaking from inexperience either, we do have our respective glyphs for a reason!

As I said, while you may have adapted, it is not a question of what her players can or cannot do to react to this change, but whether they should have to. I'm sure there have been proponents of every reworked frame who adapted to the clunkiness of the erstwhile kits before those reworks came to pass.

It wasn't intended as a personal slight, just that it encourages the wrong perspective and the wrong questions; consider that a player could adapt to being Banished by Limbo by waiting and picking out similarly-rifted targets alone, but that doesn't mean they should have to, without having the ability to return themselves to the normal plane, does it?

Edit with regards to the 'OP please nerf' specifically:

It's not really intelligible what cries of this nature will or will not be heard, making it tough to use as a judgement in such matters. Ember was annihilated without remorse despite all statistical and arithmetical evidence proving her middling at best, while in the same breath Mesa's only limiting factor of immobility gets completely augmented away leaving her free to obliterate all opposition without so much as a line-of-sight concern.

You might as well throw darts over your shoulder to see what will or will not stick from balance arguments. So we lose nothing to campaign for whatever we can get.

 

 

It's worth noting as an addendum to my previous post that, of the three 'worst' stealth users I outlined, two of them are relatively resilient. Wukong, as we know, doesn't need the stealth because he can Defy ad infinitum, and Ash may not be a tank Warframe, but he has twice the base health of Ivara along with the ability to join in Bladestorm for some extended invulnerability time.

So if this change is intentional and retained - if Ivara must be among the worst and most cumbersome stealth-users, with no concessions to those egregious drawbacks - at the very least she should be brought up to where she doesn't have to be as reliant on a wholly substandard stealth to survive.

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There was this topic..

This ivara change, whether it happened or not, are still not very good. Sprint turns it off. Walking speed too slow. Slide/roll turns it off. And it gets far worst with Hobbled dragon key. It is mostly better to use Ash Prime smoke screen and go as fast as necessary... Prime... Will there be ivara prime soon?

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12 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Edit: For those who think I might be reaching when I say that there will be "Must Nerf to OP" topics.  Just think on this.  How many other frames can solo over 90% of the game's content easily?  As well as do over 75-90% of riven challenges without any additional help.  And this is with all the drawbacks that she has.  

 

Octavia, Limbo, Mesa, Loki, Trinity, Nidus, Saryn, Volt, Equinox, Gara, Frost. Harrow... (some of those were low hanging fruit while others are more complex setups). technically you can make any frame "soloable" so the list could go on (practically to everybody in some way). It depends on what tools you have at your disposal to further augment that frame's capability. And some of these frames can be built cheaply, especially if they have a prime variant (because that's just less forma to have to put in). Regardless, Ivara herself needs investment from the player to make her good at solo content as well (and Ivara has a slightly higher forma investment cost because of both frame and Artemis bow - and cause lacking a prime variant) and knowledge of some of the game mechanics, in order to also take advantage of her kit. If the player knows how to build the frame and building weapons (And then a bunch of other auxiliary support items or other things), then it opens up the doors for a lot of frames to perform well in solo content.

It's just that most cases, Ivara performs better in solo mode.

The riven challenges will vary greatly. Most are not difficult while others do require you play a certain type of warframe due to some weird restrictions. But they're not exclusive to Ivara either. She can perform most of the riven challenges, like other frames too.

So Ivara isn't OP, she's overly ridiculously balanced, or sometimes, overly handicapped at times. So other frames can do solo content well without even being restricted.

 

13 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So I think I'm well overdue for posting here

Oh you changed your name. No wonder I didn't recognize.

We're stuck with a few situations.

1. Rework of Ivara - which I feel like, a lot of Ivara mains are scared of or don't want at all.

2. Small quality of life buffs which ultimately don't make any functional changes to her kit, improves some basics - issue is how much of a QoL buff to ask for. 

3. Don't change anything - she's fine.

I feel like everyone is scared of option 1 because, well, unless the rework was headed by Pablo, then it's completely scary on how Ivara will be like when it's headed by a different team. Since there would be a fear that it would mess Ivara up even more and make her no longer capable of doing things that she was formerly able to do. So everybody picks option 3 most likely.

Option 2 was something I suggested in some other Ivara thread. They were aimed at being very minor buffs.

Ultimately I feel we're not uniform on what exactly we want best for Ivara. Some of us don't want her to change at all because of fears of DE messing her up completely and destroying her already semi-fragile setups. While some of us do want change, but it's uncertain how much change for her. I'm sort of uncertain how much change I want for her as well. But ultimately...

13 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ivara deserves better.

this is needed. I just don't know what I feel would be appropriate to change to ask for her.

8 hours ago, sam686 said:

Will there be ivara prime soon? 


December 2019 is the estimated time of arrival for her, assuming the schedule stays as is.

 

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2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Oh you changed your name. No wonder I didn't recognize.

Noticed you on my recent profile views, assumed you found that past stuff from searching out similar threads on Ivara and/or Prowl. Yes, it's me, hello.

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

We're stuck with a few situations.

1. Rework of Ivara - which I feel like, a lot of Ivara mains are scared of or don't want at all.

2. Small quality of life buffs which ultimately don't make any functional changes to her kit, improves some basics - issue is how much of a QoL buff to ask for. 

3. Don't change anything - she's fine.

As a whole, and on the surface, Ivara's kit is clearly solid enough not to need a rework outright. This is supported by the fact that we can solo well and operate around the drawbacks, so I don't think option 1 is the way forwards (with a possible exception).

Option 3, is of course, right out. Crippled frame that not only plays well solo but almost needs to for fear of anything outside that player's control and address putting them in a compromised and possibly fatal situation is not good.

 

So, option 2, going through her kit from the bottom up, let's begin.

Base Stats: On the squishy but high-energy side. Ivara is clearly meant to use her abilities (particularly stealth as it is available twice) to avoid damage. Being a soft target is implicitly a disincentive to get hit by hazards and crossfire. All else considered, this is fine as long as the kit follows this baseline.

Passive: I think the free Enemy Radar is fine and further pushes the idea of battlefield control (plus the theme). Knowing if there are enemies close is to be better aware of present dangers.

QuiverAs it stands, Cloak Arrows and (to a lesser extent) Sleep Arrows necessitate Range as a stat due to their poor base radii. In particular, this leads to unpleasant situations where companions aren't inside that smaller bubble. Some minor addition to the base radius would go a long way here. Additionally, can we please solve Kavats and Kubrows jumping out of Cloak Arrows and drawing crossfire onto Ivara in the process?

Noise Arrow needs some in-combat effect, current use is limited to solo stealth play. This could be as little as a (wider range than Sleep Arrows) brief interrupting 'distraction' - somewhat like the difference between Stagger and Knockdown relative to Noise vs. Sleep. It wouldn't feel quite as useless in a group setting (or when accidentally fired off due to a mis-cycling).

Dashwire Arrows need to be a lot more reliable in where they will or will not decide to attach themselves if they're to be useful in anything but slow-paced approaches.  Given our large open areas now, perhaps a little leniency on their maximum range over the current limit would be advisable?

Navigator: This ability is usually slated for removal in any judgements of Ivara's kit, and it's easy to see why, very situational as it is. I may be biased but I actually like the usefulness - Navigating sleep arrows across large Interception maps to stop captures at a distance, for example.

There are two things this ability needs: Finite drain scaling and not inversely scaling from Duration. There is already a cap on the damage multiplier you can get - and how long you can sit in one place not collecting energy while Navigating. There is no reason to have the drain increase constantly for no additional benefits, give Navigator a static energy drain per second. That multiplier scales up slower with better Duration, making it a counter-intuitive interaction (and undesirable as Duration is a valued stat in Quiver, Prowl, and Navigator's own energy costs. Make the multiplier scale up faster with high Duration, not slower.

Prowl: Since I've already detailed the many issues with Prowl I don't need to go into so much here. Core improvements to make:

  • Remove artificial extra energy costs (on-melee, on-damaged). As previously stated, getting hit is already its own disincentive because you're a soft target. The drain on-melee over other stealth users is just salt in the wound too - especially since this can trigger in Sleep Arrowed finishers multiple times depending on the weapon and facing.
  • Allow unsilenced weapons to be used without losing stealth outright, even if this is rolled onto the augment instead of baseline.
  • Allow all parkour as with other stealth-based Warframes. Those other Warframes can stealth indefinitely and move freely. Allowing Ivara to do the same is not an imbalance. You already soft-incentivise limited motion by easing the energy drain at a standstill and only allowing replenishment by dropping Prowl.
  • Consider either returning base movespeed to Ivara during Prowl or allowing walking only to enjoy the benefits of the smaller energy drain as well as standing still. Some incentive to not just bullet jump forever is retained with the latter.
  • Either remove Pickpocket failure chance or give additional Strength an equivalent benefit. That drawback for the sake of a drawback is ridiculous.

Artemis Bow: The only improvement I historically would have liked for Artemis Bow is to allow melee during its use, as every shot has a tangible cost, unlike other Exalteds which are on the channeled model and taking that swing/shot costs no different. Fortunately, we have this now with the new Melee! Artemis Bow is now perfectly fine.

 

Augments are a completely separate story, of course. Personally, I find Artemis Bow's augment the only salvageable one of the entire set, followed by Quiver's (possibly) - I acknowledge it must be difficult to decide on an augment for a cycling ability like that, but I think I'd rather have the PVP Quiver augment in PVE for wide-spray Cloak and Sleep utility, myself.

Navigator's Augment is next to useless especially due to the cost model of the ability as it stands. Limited punch-through limits its function. If this could grant unlimited punch-through as well as its current function, then with the change to a proper cost model this could be a very fun augment to play around. Yondu arrow, anyone?

Prowl's Augment is just in dire need of a rethink. It is useless, a 'band-aid' augment at best. Anyone who gets Ivara the traditional way knows how to avoid lasers by this point, and additional speed is just a weak softening of the clunkiness that we currently suffer. Perhaps this could get something better, like a Sharpshooter equivalent - as Prowl promotes headshots already, this encourages an active playstyle to keep energy topped up by consistently popping heads for an indefinite Prowl, which as previously stated, is nothing functionally unavailable to the other stealth 'frames.

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7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

QuiverAs it stands, Cloak Arrows and (to a lesser extent) Sleep Arrows necessitate Range as a stat due to their poor base radii. In particular, this leads to unpleasant situations where companions aren't inside that smaller bubble. Some minor addition to the base radius would go a long way here. Additionally, can we please solve Kavats and Kubrows jumping out of Cloak Arrows and drawing crossfire onto Ivara in the process?

Agreed. Increased base radius of cloak arrow would be greatly appreciated (that was one of the QoL buffs that I wanted). Using just base range 100% cloak arrow is a little too small for comfort, you actually need to crouch with a sentinel or be exactly in the centre of a base 100% range cloak arrow for it to just cover you. Pets are problematic, in reality, I need to genuinely move to a location where no enemy is around me completely and just cloak my pet separately.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Dashwire Arrows need to be a lot more reliable in where they will or will not decide to attach themselves if they're to be useful in anything but slow-paced approaches.  Given our large open areas now, perhaps a little leniency on their maximum range over the current limit would be advisable?

Agreed as well. Increasing the max limit from 100m to something higher is desired.Don't know how much range though. Like I'd eagerly accept 200m if possible. Increasing the angle at which we can deploy a dashwire is desirable to. Currently being at fixed 40 ° angle, I'd like to see this increased to 50 ° or more. I should know, I have legitimately tried to use dashwires as an actual combat utility while running Exploiter orb solo. There's a peak that is actually ideal to deploy dashwires that's just above exploiter orb during the 2nd phase of the fight, that can help create a sniping bridge for taking out coolant raknoids from far away. Issue is the peak is sculpted at various angles that getting a dashwire deployed can take several attempts before you get it at a proper angle. Is it more of a 'side' thing to do rather than actually required for the fight. I just do it as a fun excuse to make use of dashwires. 

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Navigator

To be honest, I think navigator actually needs a lot of tweaking. But also because the ability hinges on certain weapons existing to make it practical which locks Ivara into certain specific setups. I think a lot of people want to see this fine tuned and tweaked (because I keep seeing the occasional navigator feedback thread popping up here in there. Plus it's DE's old signature work from the days of when they worked on the game 'Dark Sector' so I would like to see them polish it up and tweak it).

Navigator plus quiver arrows is good synergy with her kit, so that's a positive and specific use case.

Flipping on the other side, using Navigator as Ivara's actual cannon is a deeply complicated and expensive set up that has practical usage in Eidolon hunting. Probably one of the best use case scenarios for Navigator. It's just overly expensive in it's energy consumption and energy pads is going to be a requirement. Yes I would like to see energy consumption be reduced or be less of an insane burden because holy crap with a proper navigator build, you can burn energy in mere seconds during an Eidolon hunt and completely miss timing your shot if you're not careful. I'm not very good with specialized navigator builds for eidolon hunting, and I've only done minor personal testing, so more experienced Ivara eidolon hunters would have to talk more on this subject. 

Having the multiplier scale off of high duration would make the build more complicated. It's already a difficult set up as is (My build isn't perfect, but it sort of shows how annoying this setup can be. The build is experimental, I have never actually used it outside of personal testing in solo settings)

Spoiler

Cramming narrow minded and primed continuity is maybe possible, but would complicate this. It might be possible though, I'm half awake and can't build in my head right now (Like I said, not a perfect setup and more with things that I was wanting to try and test). The strength mods have to stay, along with energy pool and some efficiency to balance it out. Umbral mods are only there to further increase strength and gladiator finesse I have no idea if it's damage bonus was actually applying or not. So that was a shot in the dark.

b53rST0.jpg

 

Sheesh I want her base energy pool to be increased. Come her prime, I really hope that's one of the stats that actually gets increased for Ivara. Even with primed flow, 743 energy is starting to feel too low for her.

The other tweaks that people have wanted with Navigator (and I'm going to lazily copy their posts, because I think it would help without currently hindering Ivara):

On 2019-02-11 at 8:14 PM, (PS4)Foxtrot573 said:

I want to see a UI and performance change to Ivara's Navigator ability. I want to see Navigator be altered to make it more universally serviceable with all non hitscan projectiles in tighter quarters and closer engagement ranges than what is allowed currently (speaking specifically towards Bows/Crossbows, and using a comparison in behavior between the Daikyu and a glaive as an even more specific example).

1) I would like to see some sort of reticle, preferably optimized for Navigator, with the desired effect being that a player can more reliably target and effectively hit enemies and their weakspots to get the most potential out of the ability. 

2) I would like the ability to slow down relatively fast moving projectiles (like bowshots from a Daikyu for instance) lower than it's exit velocity from the weapon. 

3) While in Navigator, I would like the map to track the position of the projectile's position in space, while still taking full advantage of Ivara's enemy radar passive.  

I would just be a bit cautious about 2, because it would desirable to still have a glaive move very fast, same with things like castanas. Basically keep the current speed of glaives/thrown secondaries. Charged lanka navigator shot is too ridiculously fast to realistically control (example of overly fast projectile), so that's something I'd like to see realistically slowed down to human speeds when navigator is activated on it.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Prowl

Everything yes please. I mean I can put up with all of Ivara has to deal with as well, but some leniency would be appreciated at this point. Heh, maybe I'm the one with Stockholm syndrome with Ivara.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Artemis Bow

Is it bad that I want it to get a damage buff? Not really fully serious, I could live without.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Augments

Coming back to noise arrow, because I feel DE never actually completed Quiver (because noise and sleep arrow are still without an augment), I had proposed this ages ago in feedback. As a sort of sister 'empowered quiver augment II'

 

Spoiler

Augment idea:

Noise Arrow: - Distracting ghost. Essentially when a noise arrow is fired, it will create a ghost specter at that location that will automatically draw the attention of enemies towards it. The ghost specter is invincible and will just expire after X amount of duration has passed. I have no idea what the base stats would be, but have it scale off of duration and maybe range as well.

Potentially allow it deploy up to 3 or 4 ghost specters (but it would have smaller base range as a result)

OR

Allow it to only deploy 1 ghost specter at a time (but give it a much larger base range in exchange).

A couple of things:

  • Yes I get it, it's borrowing heavily from mallet and decoy but that's not a bad thing to me. A lot of augment ideas borrow from existing concepts or mechanics that already exist in the game. They borrow from other warframes, other abilities or existing mechanics as their base concept. Example, Infiltrate borrows the idea of bypassing lasers from Limbo's rift ability, Ivara and Octavia's base ability to cloak allies is a borrowed concept from when Ash's smoke shadow augment was first introduced (way back in update 15), and Wukong's Enveloping Cloud augment ends up borrowing from those concepts too. Concentrated arrow is essentially a beefed up version of the Thunderbolt mod except for Artemis bow. The point I'm trying to get at is that it's fairly common to see augments borrow concepts from pre-existing mechanics and just slightly tweak them. But since it's a pre-existing concept that already exists in Warframe, in theory, it wouldn't be that hard for DE to code it up.
  • The usage of something as a "distracting decoy" would be practical for Ivara players, especially when they're playing on solo mode. The situations where I think this could prove to be practical would be like boss fights because ultimately, Ivara can't expose herself to draw enemy fire since of course she's squishy. But she needs something else to distract the boss and enemies during the fight to move it along in order to enter the various different phases. An example I draw upon would be from VoidForged's sortie fight with Ivara on lephantis, ultimately, he needed a specter in order to move the boss fight along, elsewise the approach does not work.

VoidForged ultimately uses a new loka specter to draw the aggro of Lephantis in order to keep the flow of battle going.

Spoiler

 

Here is also another example of another Tenno (Erin The) doing a Solo Lech Kril Sortie. Ultimately they also need a distraction to advance through Lech Kril's various phases, and they end up using their operator as bait. Which to me, I thought, was a pretty cool approach to doing that boss fight in a different way with Ivara.

Spoiler

 

Would ultimately also love to get this augment to work on a solo profit-taker boss fight too. Would go a long way in that fight (those homing rockets are just straight up annoying and it would be nice if this augment idea could work on those too, but at the very least, act as a distraction during that fight so that something else is targeted besides Ivara. Or just introduce a silent archgun mod too DE, it's really that phase that will ultimately get her killed too when playing solo. Yes I get it, cloak arrow, but I would perfer a silent archgun mod in practical combat as it would make life easier).

  • Moving away from solo boss fights, I would love to see this augment idea also have other practical usage on other mission types. Like mobile defense, defense, excavation ... basically anything that requires Ivara to protect a single static defense objective that ultimately is going to be a pain in the butt to do. Note, I'm writing this from a solo perspective again, so when there are only two targets, Ivara or the defense objective, it becomes very difficult to do this at higher levels. Yes, I get it, use a nuke/defense frame, blah, blah. The point is for the augment to try and give Ivara players another avenue or playstyle for them to play mission types outside of the usual suspects for her (and again, it's written from a solo perspective).  Sortie tier level of mobile def, excavation is where I would like to try and get the augment to still remain functional at. Yes, it's possible to do solo sortie mobile defense with Ivara, I'm only just offering this augment idea as another tool for her to utilize. Excavation solo sortie is ... not time efficient with Ivara, but well you'll get through it eventually. It would be nice if this augment could genuinely work for it too. (I was writing defense for like traditional defense).

 

Sleep Arrows: EDIT - Wrum suggested an idea for sleep arrows that I would totally be supportive of. I'll quote them here:

On 2019-02-12 at 2:25 PM, Wrum said:

for sleep arrow: 

night terrors - when enemies wake up they run away like with nekros terrify

I really like this suggestion and would totally be up for it. Maybe it could potentially also borrow from Nyx's old passive where enemies drop their guns while they panic and run away? Perhaps a little bit strong, but at the very least, what Wrum said. Enemies waking up and running away in panicky terror after sleep arrow wears off would be greatly appreciated!

was just an idea.

Agreed with your navigator augment idea, as long as the crit chance buff is kept on the augment. Because I honestly think, the crit chance is what allows Ivara to deal with navigator+glaive combo for eidolon hunting.

As for prowl's augment, I'll admit, it's just for easy convenience and not for having to go the long way around on some routes. Ivara being able to short cut a lot of routes is desirable. I'd want the ability to bypass lasers to be baked into her kit though, so that the prowl augment can be finally reworked at that point. Because, I'm almost certain, a large reason people use her, is for her augment on spies. Which I find to be funny. I just do it out of love for Ivara and lazy convenience. A 'sharpshooter' like change for prowl's augment (assuming that bypassing lasers got baked into her kit, heck it would be nice if she also got the speed buff scaling off of damage baked in as well), would be an interesting change. I might like that, rather than having to sacrifice another mod on rubico prime as is.

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11 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Regardless, Ivara herself needs investment from the player to make her good at solo content as well (and Ivara has a slightly higher forma investment cost because of both frame and Artemis bow - and cause lacking a prime variant) and knowledge of some of the game mechanics, in order to also take advantage of her kit.

I must correct you on this. Ivara doesn't need any extra investment to be good at solo content.  Remember, I'm the guy who bought her as soon as I unlocked the marketplace and played her completely solo while my starter frame Excal was still rank 4.  And did I again a second time on an Alt account when the Specters of the Rails changes to the Starchart came out.  It can all be done with just the regular mods you come across in game without needing any additional corrupted mods.

 

11 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

So other frames can do solo content well without even being restricted.

You might have missed the point I was making with my statement.  I wasn't referring to soloing some content.  I meant soloing it all using only that frame.  The list gets much smaller now doesn't it.  😄  

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9 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

To be honest, I think navigator actually needs a lot of tweaking. But also because the ability hinges on certain weapons existing to make it practical which locks Ivara into certain specific setups. I think a lot of people want to see this fine tuned and tweaked (because I keep seeing the occasional navigator feedback thread popping up here in there. Plus it's DE's old signature work from the days of when they worked on the game 'Dark Sector' so I would like to see them polish it up and tweak it).

Navigator plus quiver arrows is good synergy with her kit, so that's a positive and specific use case.

Flipping on the other side, using Navigator as Ivara's actual cannon is a deeply complicated and expensive set up that has practical usage in Eidolon hunting. Probably one of the best use case scenarios for Navigator. It's just overly expensive in it's energy consumption and energy pads is going to be a requirement. Yes I would like to see energy consumption be reduced or be less of an insane burden because holy crap with a proper navigator build, you can burn energy in mere seconds during an Eidolon hunt and completely miss timing your shot if you're not careful. I'm not very good with specialized navigator builds for eidolon hunting, and I've only done minor personal testing, so more experienced Ivara eidolon hunters would have to talk more on this subject. 

Having the multiplier scale off of high duration would make the build more complicated. It's already a difficult set up as is (My build isn't perfect, but it sort of shows how annoying this setup can be.)

  Hide contents

Cramming narrow minded and primed continuity is maybe possible, but would complicate this. It might be possible though, I'm half awake and can't build in my head right now (Like I said, not a perfect setup and more with things that I was wanting to try and test). The strength mods have to stay, along with energy pool and some efficiency to balance it out. Umbral mods are only there to further increase strength and gladiator finesse I have no idea if it's damage bonus was actually applying or not. So that was a shot in the dark.

b53rST0.jpg

 

Sheesh I want her base energy pool to be increased. Come her prime, I really hope that's one of the stats that actually gets increased for Ivara. Even with primed flow, 743 energy is starting to feel too low for her.

The other tweaks that people have wanted with Navigator (and I'm going to lazily copy their posts, because I think it would help without currently hindering Ivara):

I would just be a bit cautious about 2, because it would desirable to still have a glaive move very fast, same with things like castanas. Basically keep the current speed of glaives/thrown secondaries. Charged lanka navigator shot is too ridiculously fast to realistically control (example of overly fast projectile), so that's something I'd like to see realistically slowed down to human speeds when navigator is activated on it.

Agreed with your navigator augment idea, as long as the crit chance buff is kept on the augment. Because I honestly think, the crit chance is what allows Ivara to deal with navigator+glaive combo for eidolon hunting.

Ah, I knew I forgot to mention something about Navigator quality of life. A three-step speed would be lovely, with {aim} decreasing the step and {fire} increasing it, going from "faster" through "normal" to "slower", the latter useful for those projectiles with obscene 'normal' and for precision (e.g. landing navigated headshots better).

With regards to Duration, the only other cases I can think of offhand where a negative stat is outright beneficial is in the case of Molecular Prime - which as we all know originated as a bug - and Trinity's Energy Vampire which has the solution in killing the target to get the energy out at once. Having something in the base of Ivara's kit work at cross-purposes with the Duration stat doesn't make sense. Typically a dump-stat is neutral at best (Loki) or has other tradeoffs (Trinity and Nova to an extent, limiting and weakening other abilities in the kit).

 

It may cause some off-builds like that to become slightly less performant, I admit, but there are ways to mitigate the losses. It seems like that build could stand to dump Range instead of Duration and seek strength in other combinations (Growing Power and Augur Secrets instead of Transient Fortitude?); with a more comfortable energy economy on the ability too your efficiency and capacity are less demanding.

 

(Also yes, the augment would still gain the crit chance bonus per-hit - half the point was that the bonus would become more consistently usable when your punch-through wouldn't be at risk of faltering after the second target!)

10 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Is it bad that I want it to get a damage buff? Not really fully serious, I could live without.

Actually, I used to run Ivara as damage at the beginning of PoE for Eidolon hunting - Artemis Bow kitted out properly can be quite murderous if you can get positioned to hit the spread where it counts. Bit easier on Terry than the others, but surprisingly effective nonetheless.

There are some issues with crit and multishot still in the game, though, it's a bit of an oddity, in some cases the result seems to be 'averaged' out rather than for example, shots A+B critting, shot C normal-hitting, and shot D also critting each as their own separate calculation. Also seemed to affect Void Strike charge - each ABow shot takes one charge but the multiplier is split among the arrows for less overall benefit depending on your multishot count. Maybe I should have mentioned that for potential fixes that would help matters.

I can't remember if that odd behaviour was something that crept in as a bug sometime after PoE launch or it was just a late discovery of mine when testing things, though.

10 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Coming back to noise arrow, because I feel DE never actually completed Quiver (because noise and sleep arrow are still without an augment), I had proposed this ages ago in feedback. As a sort of sister 'empowered quiver augment II'

Certainly once there's a 'second round' of augments then cycled abilities like Quiver can be fully addressed, Can't fit too much text on one mod card, if nothing else. Quiver's PvE aug isn't the worst of the bunch at all, but it's hard for me to justify a build slot for its very situational use cases. The PvP augment I'd use happily. Spread-shooting any arrow but Noise would be fun. Wide-range sleep and cloak for a little extra energy, absolutely. Even dashwires could instantly spider out a nice triple path from that single starting point if the angle of spread was wide enough.

10 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

As for prowl's augment, I'll admit, it's just for easy convenience and not for having to go the long way around on some routes. Ivara being able to short cut a lot of routes is desirable. I'd want the ability to bypass lasers to be baked into her kit though, so that the prowl augment can be finally reworked at that point. Because, I'm almost certain, a large reason people use her, is for her augment on spies. Which I find to be funny. I just do it out of love for Ivara and lazy convenience. A 'sharpshooter' like change for prowl's augment (assuming that bypassing lasers got baked into her kit, heck it would be nice if she also got the speed buff scaling off of damage baked in as well), would be an interesting change. I might like that, rather than having to sacrifice another mod on rubico prime as is.

I suppose baseline laser-ignoring is a little risky on the 'OP' since it's the best of both worlds - Limbo ignorance and camera/drone invisibility combined - but it's certainly not a big enough thing to base an augment on. People might seek it out for crutch gameplay but those are the same types of people who fail sortie spies because they can't use Ciphers any more. If it took losing laser ignorance to get a good function in Prowl's augment then I'd absolutely vote to deal with lasers normally.

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24 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I must correct you on this. Ivara doesn't need any extra investment to be good at solo content.  Remember, I'm the guy who bought her as soon as I unlocked the marketplace and played her completely solo while my starter frame Excal was still rank 4. 

 

You might have missed the point I was making with my statement.  I wasn't referring to soloing some content.  I meant soloing it all using only that frame.  The list gets much smaller now doesn't it.  😄  

I normally don't double-post but this'd get mixed in with the other discussion otherwise.

Can you give me some examples of where Ivara's particular solo capability outstrips baseline frames like, say, Rhino? That's not even mentioning the brute-force approach (Mesa), kit overload (Octavia) and heck, even little old lobsterbutt can deal with mostly anything.

(We must acknowledge that a good standard weapon can be included or warframes with Exalted weapons will always seem too far ahead.)

 

Ivara's not very good at Defensive content either. Excavation especially, because those soft targets. Sleep-arrow spam is your best bet but there's much more potential for being flanked than a wider AOE CC-frame (or murderframe) would deal with.

Edit for Edit that happened while I was typing: Ivara does need corrupted or Primed mods to really comfortably solo lots of things. Be that for efficiency (FleetEx) and duration (P.Conti) or needing that Overextended range for a more usable Cloak/Sleep. Also Primed Flow, barring the fact I don't use it myself

Not really less than the other wide-reaching solo capables need to be perfectly comfortable and reliable either.

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2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ivara's not very good at Defensive content either. Excavation especially, because those soft targets.

This is the very reason I didn't say 100% of the content in my original post.  I've been able to do them, but not successfully past a certain point or wave.  But even the frames you mentioned have some mission types that they aren't Ideal for.  Do notice this though, you didn't name every frame there is and your list was small.  😄  

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Just now, DatDarkOne said:

This is the very reason I didn't say 100% of the content in my original post.  I've been able to do them, but not successfully past a certain point or wave.  But even the frames you mentioned have some mission types that they aren't Ideal for.  Do notice this though, you didn't name every frame there is and your list was small.  😄  

I gave some examples, but also it depends heavily on where you put the catchment of this solo capability. Plus you have to account for personal bias. When you've had a large predominance for a specific frame, your view of what's 'easy' to do with them versus other options might become a little skewed.

Just because we might say, "Hey new content, let's go do it as Ivara" and be on our merry and successful way, doesn't mean that your local Volt main doesn't do the same. The list is probably shorter when asking what frames are more limited in their solo capacities, when it comes from a position of expertise.

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5 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The list is probably shorter when asking what frames are more limited in their solo capacities, when it comes from a position of expertise.

Agreed

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Prowl needs an overhaul:

  1. Typical movement during prowl is rolling, because it's a lot faster than walking very slowly. If there is a convenient wall, you can run along it for a change.
  2. No bullet jumping means high places are impractical to reach.
  3. Prowl weakens Ivara: Silencing weapons means you lose a mod, losing energy on melee makes it bad.
  4. The augment increases walking speed, yet even with >200% ability strength rolling is still faster.
  5. No Energizing Dash because of the drain.
  6. Your team is flying trough the air while you walk extraordinarily slowly. Good thing they will only have to wait 60 seconds for extraction.

Honestly, if I could shoot myself or my sentinel with the stealth arrow I'd never use prowl except for stealing and ignoring lasers.

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29 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Prowl weakens Ivara: Silencing weapons means you lose a mod

I already covered that this is only true if you build for negative power strength.  

30 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Your team is flying trough the air while you walk extraordinarily slowly.

It just means that they will have to wait for you to revive them because they got merc'd by being a Leeroy Jenkins.  

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How about this: Aiming downwards with stealth arrow targets yourself, prowl is only stealing items but does so instantly. Prowls augment gives immunity to lasers and damage reduction.

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17 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

How about this: Aiming downwards with stealth arrow targets yourself, prowl is only stealing items but does so instantly. Prowls augment gives immunity to lasers and damage reduction.

What do you mean exactly about damage reduction?  The augment already nullifies damage from all lasers except for the ones in the Lua Endurance Challenge.  

As for the cloak arrow on yourself, That one was specifically not allowed as to not have salty Loki players complaining all over the forums.  Trust me when I say they would do that.  

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