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BlindStalker

As of mainline update 24.4.1 - Ivara can no longer bullet jump while being in prowl when playing solo/host mode only. DE can we please have the bug/feature come back?

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On 2019-03-17 at 4:07 PM, DatDarkOne said:

I must correct you on this. Ivara doesn't need any extra investment to be good at solo content.  Remember, I'm the guy who bought her as soon as I unlocked the marketplace and played her completely solo while my starter frame Excal was still rank 4.  And did I again a second time on an Alt account when the Specters of the Rails changes to the Starchart came out.  It can all be done with just the regular mods you come across in game without needing any additional corrupted mods.

Technically, every new frame that is bought from the market comes with a potato and slot. So at minimum Ivara needs a potato. But that goes for any frame if you really want to unlock their potential. Can one work with Ivara not having some forma? Sure. I mean I was frugal for the longest time of not wanting to use forma and made Ivara work too on just barebones (granted, I had stat-sticks as well for Artemis, back in those days). Though, I'll admit, the current polarity set up for Artemis (starting, non-forma, 2 V, 1 -) is actually quite good for starting out.  But like everyone else, Ivara becomes that much sweeter if one is willing to throw forma on to her.

On 2019-03-17 at 4:07 PM, DatDarkOne said:

You might have missed the point I was making with my statement.  I wasn't referring to soloing some content.  I meant soloing it all using only that frame.  The list gets much smaller now doesn't it. 

The list is smaller, but Ivara isn't quite up there in that list. Though You did say 90% after all so she's somewhere within range. It's kind of why I want her to get buffed, so she gains back some of her "solo queen" status.

I mean, can we please ask to buff quiver arrow so that it can cloak more things other than NPC VIP targers, the drone from PoE bounties, and the coil drive on OV bounties? I would love to have cloak arrow work on mob-def consoles, excavator drillers - it would actually result in Ivara seeing more usage outside of the usual spy mission from players. She's not going to threaten the proper defense frames who can actually defend objectives. It will just give us another choice for frames to choose on defensive based mission types. I'll admit, it was actually nice that DE threw us a bone when they allowed the coil drive to be cloaked, because that mission would honestly be annoying to do with Ivara alone and wouldn't even warrant her usage.

On 2019-03-17 at 4:22 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

It may cause some off-builds like that to become slightly less performant, I admit, but there are ways to mitigate the losses. It seems like that build could stand to dump Range instead of Duration and seek strength in other combinations (Growing Power and Augur Secrets instead of Transient Fortitude?); with a more comfortable energy economy on the ability too your efficiency and capacity are less demanding.

Depends on if narrow minded and primed continuity are mandatory to set off the costs on navigator scaling off of positive duration instead of negative duration. It's possible to throw on one, and maybe both sure, but you're become even more glass at that point (I suppose a lot of Ivaras run glass anyways with the assumption there will be a dedicated healer, likely Trin, but I do like having room to actually have survivability on her, just personal preference). Most likely though, one would have to throw off the umbral mods and a lot of the navigator eidolon Ivaras usually prefer to get those on if possible. It's possible to get it to work, but it requires a re-formaing of Ivara all over again, and I'm sure plenty of Ivara eidolon hunters have an extremely tight forma build already for her just for eidolon hunting (assuming they use her for eidolon hunting).

Usually many Ivara eidolon hunters push her up to 300%+ strength bare minimum (though you could work on 200% but you need to start incorporating mutalist quanta for that to work, and DE recently made changes again to that weapon, and it might be buggy changes, so I'm not even sure if that method is working right now. I have no idea, why they keep changing it around).

I would make the assumption that Ivara eidolon hunters would realize the build is quite energy expensive and that energy pads are literally mandatory to carry around for her setup. Usually it's expected anyways to carry just to jump-start the Itzal. I agree it's energy expensive, but I kind of find it problematic if navigator scaled faster with positive duration, instead of negative dur, just because it will mess up a lot of Ivara eidolon navigator builds already. Yes, I agree it's a "locked-in" build, and ends up hurting the rest of her kit when it's built with negative duration, but it's a niche build for a lot of firepower in a short amount of time during an eidolon hunt which is more or less the point, and technically, we're not really using the rest of her kit (except for Artemis bow) for utility during an eidolon hunt. It's one of her niches, and Ivara has been good at niches like this.

On 2019-03-17 at 4:22 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Actually, I used to run Ivara as damage at the beginning of PoE for Eidolon hunting - Artemis Bow kitted out properly can be quite murderous if you can get positioned to hit the spread where it counts. Bit easier on Terry than the others, but surprisingly effective nonetheless.

There are some issues with crit and multishot still in the game, though, it's a bit of an oddity, in some cases the result seems to be 'averaged' out rather than for example, shots A+B critting, shot C normal-hitting, and shot D also critting each as their own separate calculation. Also seemed to affect Void Strike charge - each ABow shot takes one charge but the multiplier is split among the arrows for less overall benefit depending on your multishot count. Maybe I should have mentioned that for potential fixes that would help matters.

I can't remember if that odd behaviour was something that crept in as a bug sometime after PoE launch or it was just a late discovery of mine when testing things, though.

I still run an Ivara Artemis bow eidolon hunter build for tridolons. It's that one marked "drunk RA 323/299" in my screenshot (my naming schemes are kind of jokey). Only because it's "economically stable" compared to navigator builds, and because I've been too scared to bring the navigator builds out to public for testing. So I've only run tridolons either solo or with a small group of friends. I've only done a few.

Oh does void strike affect Artemis Bow? I usually run Unariu with Ivara so I don't often see that damage bonus. And I'm really more of a novice to tridolon hunts, so I've only experimented and dabbled with things on my own, experimentally.

On 2019-03-17 at 4:22 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

If it took losing laser ignorance to get a good function in Prowl's augment then I'd absolutely vote to deal with lasers normally.

I would only be okay with an Infiltrate augment rework, if Ivara's prowl gained laser bypassing by default. Else wise, she would lack the extra benefit over other stealth frames and would put her at more of disadvantage if it was removed. To be honest, I think a lot of people actually use Ivara solely just for her Infiltrate augment on spy sorties. I get the feeling, it's one of the largest single use cases that the community has a on whole for her (she accidentally got pigeon-holed into it, but eh, at least she holds that niche). Yeah there's plenty of videos that show all the routes/or people learned them. But some people honestly just hate doing spy, and they don't like being forced to memorized over 27 different spy puzzles and will willing choose convenience, or extra assurance for Ivara alone on spy sorties. If we took it away from her, I suspect her usage would go down further, unless it got baked into her kit. Though, since the original topic of this bug thread is the bullet jump in prowl in solo, people will have to adjust to using dashwires for some routes. But I feel most spy routes rarely require the need of dashwires so it shouldn't be that bad either. 

Maybe some are like me, who likes convenience on spy, knows the routes as well, and it just gives another reason to have Ivara have some fun as well running the spy vaults.

Alternatively, I'd like to see the base speed of the infiltrate augment be increased so that the speed buff feels better. Base 25% scaling off of strength still feels really slow (it only feels kind of decent at like around 240% strength).

Edited by BlindStalker
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59 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Depends on if narrow minded and primed continuity are mandatory to set off the costs on navigator scaling off of positive duration instead of negative duration. It's possible to throw on one, and maybe both sure, but you're become even more glass at that point (I suppose a lot of Ivaras run glass anyways with the assumption there will be a dedicated healer, likely Trin, but I do like having room to actually have survivability on her, just personal preference). Most likely though, one would have to throw off the umbral mods and a lot of the navigator eidolon Ivaras usually prefer to get those on if possible. It's possible to get it to work, but it requires a re-formaing of Ivara all over again, and I'm sure plenty of Ivara eidolon hunters have an extremely tight forma build already for her just for eidolon hunting (assuming they use her for eidolon hunting).

Usually many Ivara eidolon hunters push her up to 300%+ strength bare minimum (though you could work on 200% but you need to start incorporating mutalist quanta for that to work, and DE recently made changes again to that weapon, and it might be buggy changes, so I'm not even sure if that method is working right now. I have no idea, why they keep changing it around).

I would make the assumption that Ivara eidolon hunters would realize the build is quite energy expensive and that energy pads are literally mandatory to carry around for her setup. Usually it's expected anyways to carry just to jump-start the Itzal. I agree it's energy expensive, but I kind of find it problematic if navigator scaled faster with positive duration, instead of negative dur, just because it will mess up a lot of Ivara eidolon navigator builds already. Yes, I agree it's a "locked-in" build, and ends up hurting the rest of her kit when it's built with negative duration, but it's a niche build for a lot of firepower in a short amount of time during an eidolon hunt which is more or less the point, and technically, we're not really using the rest of her kit (except for Artemis bow) for utility during an eidolon hunt. It's one of her niches, and Ivara has been good at niches like this.

Honestly, now I think about it, it might be even better if the multiplier scaling was just.. standardised. Duration could still affect it, but having it be a flat value of growth rather than a standardised percentage is going to have that weird codependency whether you inversely scale it (must have min. duration for those delicious 15x multipliers) or positively scale it (waiting a while to get there unless you can also stack Duration).

Baseline is 5x with a 1x/sec multiplier. Set that as the standard and let Duration normally affect it; you hit your max in (5 / Duration) seconds. Sub-100% duration might still make it a little unwieldy (12.5s to cap with FleetEx causing 40% duration) but you wouldn't need to really maximise duration either. Add in the fact that I propose Navigator to be less energy restrictive in general and you could probably keep close to current

(Speaking of Forma, though - I've had a desire to see that system reworked too, for some time. Essentially, Polarise the item not the slot, letting you mix-and-match from an unlocked bank of polarities at your leisure. I should repost that again considering the Umbra Forma.)

 

59 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

I still run an Ivara Artemis bow eidolon hunter build for tridolons. It's that one marked "drunk RA 323/299" in my screenshot (my naming schemes are kind of jokey). Only because it's "economically stable" compared to navigator builds, and because I've been too scared to bring the navigator builds out to public for testing. So I've only run tridolons either solo or with a small group of friends. I've only done a few.

Oh does void strike affect Artemis Bow? I usually run Unariu with Ivara so I don't often see that damage bonus. And I'm really more of a novice to tridolon hunts, so I've only experimented and dabbled with things on my own, experimentally.

Void Strike affects but, as I said, due to the bug the effect is basically made useless because it's essentially divided by your multishot. Shooting a 15x VS charge on a 15-arrow Artemis shot would be a mere 100% damage buff. If memory serves.

I really hoped that the ABow augment's single arrow would be chunkier than it is so that a hybrid Artemis/Navigator could have put Ivara in direct contest with the 'standard' oneshot meta. As with everything else, it's heavily 'balanced' down so that imperfect use is outright detrimental. Imagine if the base damage was the sum total of the multishot arrows it's replacing. More like Artemis Ballista. That is a recipe for Eidolon hunting - and with Navigator, you don't even miss.

 

59 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Maybe some are like me, who likes convenience on spy, knows the routes as well, and it just gives another reason to have Ivara have some fun as well running the spy vaults.

Alternatively, I'd like to see the base speed of the infiltrate augment be increased so that the speed buff feels better. Base 25% scaling off of strength still feels really slow (it only feels kind of decent at like around 240% strength).

Fair enough. Losing laser benefits was a personal statement. Limbo still exists for that convenience too, with Stasis for units and the damage of Cataclysm for cameras, right?

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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I really hoped that the ABow augment's single arrow would be chunkier than it is so that a hybrid Artemis/Navigator could have put Ivara in direct contest with the 'standard' oneshot meta. As with everything else, it's heavily 'balanced' down so that imperfect use is outright detrimental. Imagine if the base damage was the sum total of the multishot arrows it's replacing. More like Artemis Ballista. That is a recipe for Eidolon hunting - and with Navigator, you don't even miss.

You just listed every problem I had/have with Concentrated Arrow augment.  It's such a nerf to Artemis that I have pretty much ignored it's existence after testing it multiple times.  All because it's the damage from ONE arrow instead of the "Concentrated" damage of all the arrows.  Which is exactly what you get if you don't or can't get a headshot.  Making it completely useless against bosses and most parts of Eidolons or anything else without a head.  Let's not forget that most grineer units have armor plating blocking all rear and some side headshots. 

Sorry about the rant. It's just the mention of that augment tends to trigger me.   

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Honestly, now I think about it, it might be even better if the multiplier scaling was just.. standardised. Duration could still affect it, but having it be a flat value of growth rather than a standardised percentage is going to have that weird codependency whether you inversely scale it (must have min. duration for those delicious 15x multipliers) or positively scale it (waiting a while to get there unless you can also stack Duration).

Baseline is 5x with a 1x/sec multiplier. Set that as the standard and let Duration normally affect it; you hit your max in (5 / Duration) seconds. Sub-100% duration might still make it a little unwieldy (12.5s to cap with FleetEx causing 40% duration) but you wouldn't need to really maximise duration either. Add in the fact that I propose Navigator to be less energy restrictive in general and you could probably keep close to current

(Speaking of Forma, though - I've had a desire to see that system reworked too, for some time. Essentially, Polarise the item not the slot, letting you mix-and-match from an unlocked bank of polarities at your leisure. I should repost that again considering the Umbra Forma.)

I'll admit, I'm not good with picking new rates of damage/second as I'm pretty bad with math. It would be nice if the build was a little bit more energy efficient. I'm just trying to keep in mind the other Ivara eidolon hunters, how such changes would affect them with messing around on duration stat. Maybe it would work, as long as she still gets the damage within the time window. Usually it's thrown during when eidolon is crying and about to fire off its mag proc (that's like maybe a 8 or 10 second time window? I could be over or  underestimating the time, need to watch a video to be sure). As long as the numbers balance out accordingly.

 

22 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I really hoped that the ABow augment's single arrow would be chunkier than it is so that a hybrid Artemis/Navigator could have put Ivara in direct contest with the 'standard' oneshot meta. As with everything else, it's heavily 'balanced' down so that imperfect use is outright detrimental. Imagine if the base damage was the sum total of the multishot arrows it's replacing. More like Artemis Ballista. That is a recipe for Eidolon hunting - and with Navigator, you don't even miss. 

Sort of in a love-hate relationship with Concentrate Arrow. On the one hand, it can be reasonably effective as low level mob clean-up (it's not a big nuke, it's a small bite-sized one), places where using traditional Artemis bow would just be a bit cumbersome to use and it does provide an alternative play-style to Ivara - which really fits what an augment does. It can be satisfying and interesting to use.

On the other, it's a pain in the arse to mod around this augment because of the desire to keep range high and balance everything else accordingly, depending on which enemy faction (cough infested cough) getting headshots can be a pain on some enemies because the head is not in an obvious spot or doesn't exist (found out the head on a bursa is not the back console but at some weird corner angle), on some boss fights the head can't be targeted because that's not the weak point, it's sometimes problematic to hit headshots if enemies are being staggered by teammates, and agreed, I wish it did more damage. Regular artemis bow can still deal its damage on a single target well, concentrated arrows needs prowl to get it to be buffed later on in levels I feel. And if you're not headhunting, welp who cares about the damage of a single arrow.

Like for an augment, it definitely feels like it fits the description of an augment, alternative way to play a frame. And it does alright, just wish it actually used all of Ivara's arrows.

 

22 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Fair enough. Losing laser benefits was a personal statement. Limbo still exists for that convenience too, with Stasis for units and the damage of Cataclysm for cameras, right?

It's not about convenience. I have Stockholm syndrome. Someone pickpocketed my heart and never gave it back 😛  (it might be loss aversion though for myself, if she were to lose laser bypassing though).

Perhaps we should actually make a feedback thread for Ivara in the feedback section? As much as I enjoy talking about froggy/rabbit/mushroom cap/huntress/catfish/(and now 'wizard') girl, I'm starting to wonder if we're getting off topic here about asking DE to give back the ability of froggy to jump again while in prowl mode. At least some consideration for us would be nice.

 

Edited by BlindStalker

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The main issue that's being missed too much is that it's not even about a significant buff or adding QoL, it's that she was nerfed for no reason after 2 years, with a reason provided that doesn't actually make sense.
There was no grand scheme of balancing or anything involved, just an insult.
The fact that it's not even being called a nerf, but a 'bugfix', just adds an extra layer of insult to it.

Being handed a direct nerf to QoL (with no impact on any aspect of the game other than QoL), on a niche-use frame is an awful thing to happen, and shouldn't be treated anywhere near as casually as it was by official sources, let alone other players.

 

If it's part of their plan for Ivara Prime, then maybe - if they release that next.
Which is highly unlikely.
 

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Hey this is my first in the forum. I main Ivara.. If ur not in prowl 247 you might aswell kill yourself, almost anything can 1 shot her. She pretty much has the lowest amour health and shields out of all the warframes. Plz change ivara back to normal her mobility bad enough while prowls active

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Posted (edited)

I'm really not interested in any reworks and changes because that "correction" changed little in terms of Ivara's general usability. But there's some problems that should be fixed at the same time, if not before.

I always said that you try to get Ivara to make spy missions easier and when you get her, you learn that you no longer need her for those missions. I think that I only used her for the Kuva and Lua ones. On others, she's basically better then the frames that can't dash through lasers or teleport but only a little bit better than Rhino, because she also can go full John Cena.

But let's talk other missions and the big problem that I see.
There's lots of spots like this one that I mention, but this one makes me wanna hang myself on the dash wire more than others. It technically affects all frames, but now, Ivara can only wall jump so this will be a blast.

Everybody knows that Corpus rescue mission where the prison is outside. I probably don't even have to say more because most people who don't hack the main door open will already suffer from severe pain knowing how nice it is to use the "secret"/bottom entrance. At the end of that passage you have to bullet jump up. There's no way you can run up the wall because wall running and edge gripping was removed 10000 years ago so you'll get stuck as if you were running up and hitting the ceiling.

Why not fix that before fixing Ivaras bullet jump? There's lots of spots like that, but this and one of the Grineer rescue missions are the most annoying ones to navigate. There may be enemies in those passages and sometimes you may not want to engage them or let them see you (and yes, in most scenarios you can just kill the enemy, but by that logic, you don't have to use Ivara to begin with).

 

I'm more salty that it took so long to "fix" it. It will take quite some time to unlearn doing that. Doesn't change interception missions that much, since you don't even need the augment there, but Equinox may now be the faster option for stealth leveling weapons.

 

It's hard to ask for any buffs. I don't like the change, but it's called Prowl for a reason. Aside from slowing down the gameplay a bit, it changes nothing (cough cough invisible ceiling cough). I'd say, polish the environment so that areas that should not need a bullet jump could be accessed by wall jumping, and where bulled jumping would be required you should be able to use the dash wire (without the weird "spend energy and definitely hit a wall but nothing happens").

 

Ohh, and btw. It would really be nice if the weird delay between pressing the fire button and the fishing spear being thrown while on Ivara's dash wire would be removed. And let us equip gear items on the wires.

 

Ohh, and btw2. You need 0 forma in Ivara to stomp 99% of normal (non-giant boss) missions.

 

Edit:

Alright, it seems that DE removed the ledges at the end of many vents, so that's something. I'll try my luck and complain about something else and maybe it's gonna magically get changed too:
DE, nobody cares how contagion looks. Please enable skins for zaws!

Edited by (PS4)shadowinamask
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On 2019-03-21 at 1:42 AM, symonia said:

The main issue that's being missed too much is that it's not even about a significant buff or adding QoL, it's that she was nerfed for no reason after 2 years, with a reason provided that doesn't actually make sense.
There was no grand scheme of balancing or anything involved, just an insult.
The fact that it's not even being called a nerf, but a 'bugfix', just adds an extra layer of insult to it.

Being handed a direct nerf to QoL (with no impact on any aspect of the game other than QoL), on a niche-use frame is an awful thing to happen, and shouldn't be treated anywhere near as casually as it was by official sources, let alone other players.

Agreed. I might have just accidentally detracted a bit from this thread when I was making previous replies. It would be nice to get some QoL buffs for Ivara at this point. I suppose later I'll make an actual Warframe feedback thread to see how much of the community wants it back to be turned into a feature. I'm kind of almost thinking that it was net coding that DE touched upon during this previous mainline update and that's why she lost it in the first place. But that's just a guess from me.

On 2019-03-21 at 3:37 PM, (PS4)shadowinamask said:

you should be able to use the dash wire (without the weird "spend energy and definitely hit a wall but nothing happens")

That would be actual nice QoL change for Ivara. Firing a dashwire and not having it appear but still draining the energy is annoying. Having it changed so that it only spends energy when a dashwire is properly created would be desirable to me. 

On 2019-03-21 at 3:37 PM, (PS4)shadowinamask said:

And let us equip gear items on the wires.

That too, would like to see this as an updated change. Fishing on dashwires is getting looked at, in another thread. So it's being worked on, the fixes are just complicated and will take longer than expected, but being worked on.

 

 

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I have made a thread in the feedback>Warframes section, for Ivara players who wish to discuss about persuading DE into getting the bug returned into a QoL feature for Ivara.

 

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