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Melee 3.0 would be catastrophic to the game


Fydro56
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First and foremost it should be said that the countless fixes and updates that are continuously being introduced to the game are greatly appreciated and speak volumes about DE's dedication to make more enjoyable the passion project that is Warframe. However, while these updates are usually positive for the game, the developers should be careful of changes that completely overhaul core aspects of the game which could be earth shatteringly negative; DE should avoid the changes of Melee 3.0.

Firstly, the update removed melee swapping from the dedicated weapon swap button in addition to their animations. Players now have to press the quick melee button to swap to melee and aim/shoot to swap to firearms, and swapped weapons, without any animation, appear out of thin air. This should be avoided; if players want only to swap between melee/firearm when not engaged in combat, they need to quick melee/shoot, which breaks immersion and fluidity during gameplay, unlike with a simple press of a dedicated button. If the fluidity of weapon swapping is a concern, a simple tweak to swap animation speed would be enough.

Additionally, with the new swapping mechanic, because channeling and blocking shared the same buttons as aim and shoot respectively, players can no longer channel or block manually. With this change, unique enemy knockdown mechanics like snatching and eximus' flaming area of effect abilities that necessitate active engagement through manual blocking would be made obsolete. With this change, countless channeling mods would be made obsolete and melee builds that rely on them would be ruined; several stance mod combos and and their animations would be removed. With this change, the unique dynamic of channel blocking that allowed for enhanced deflection of damage would cease to exist.

While it may be argued that there are aspects of the melee system in need of improvement, a change of such magnitude that affects so many other elements of the game would not be necessary. While it could be argued that some current mechanics are niche and irrelevant, this is purely subjective. It should be emphatically noted that options are important in any game; players who don't care for them don't have to worry about them, and those who do can enjoy them. DE should not restrict options, especially when they already have been available to the players whose satisfaction dictates the success of their game (as for the case with any game).

Ultimately, this update removes complexity and functionality, resulting in a devolution of melee and a less fleshed out system; DE should avoid drastic alterations such as melee 3.0 that take away so many core elements of a system so deeply intertwined with the mechanics and functionality and enjoyment of Warframe.

Edited by Fydro56
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Blocking is automatic yes, but you still channel manually. Unless you are, for some reason, still using an archaic two button mouse, channeling is set to the middle mouse button. (I don't remember the controller layouts offhand so I don't have those default bindings to state at the moment.) It's not some catastrophic horror that people are making it out to be. The system is far from done, and DE have said as much. This is just phase one of the rework, later phases will fix issues with auto block and other similar problems, including potentially changing how channeling works entirely.

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you can channel dude just remap it on options i have it on mouse 3, auto block is a big buff to all warframes hp and melee slams are the only thing that feels bad probably a dedicated button or comand. i like the new one more and i whould say being able to shoot mid combo adds more depth than what the hole melee use to be.

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1 minute ago, Ferbsol said:

you can channel dude just remap it on options i have it on mouse 3, auto block is a big buff to all warframes hp and melee slams are the only thing that feels bad probably a dedicated button or comand. i like the new one more and i whould say being able to shoot mid combo adds more depth than what the hole melee use to be.

Melee slam attacks need a couple tweaks, yeah. Such as more reliable ways to trigger them than "aim camera down and attack", since sometimes the game seems to forget what "down" is.

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Needs tweaks, yes, but hardly "catastrophic".

Like a lot if new implementation into a video game, Melee 3.0 will require adjustments. Both from the Devs changing coding, and Players unlearning the old system and learning the new.

I, personally, only want the Reload key to switch back to the last firearm, regardless if the clip is full or not (currently only switches if you are down a round or more). The main reason is for quick swap back to firearm without needing to aim (the momentary swap is actually slower than the old system, imo), and allowing for the Attack Button to still be used for melee. Also, single-shot magazine weapons are restricted here.

But overall, I like the new changes, and am holding giving Feedback until the entire system is in place and I get to use it all. Also still re-learning muscle memory, but it's been 2+ years playing the old way, and barely a week under the new system. Hardly enough time for anyone to get a good feel for a new system that isn't even fully implemented yet (only on stage 1 of 3, I believe).

So sit back, play with it some more, and THEN make an informed thesis.

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2 hours ago, Fydro56 said:

Firstly, the update removed melee swapping from the dedicated weapon swap button in addition to their animations. Players now have to press the quick melee button to swap to melee and aim/shoot to swap to firearms, and swapped weapons, without any animation, appear out of thin air. This should be avoided; if players want only to swap between melee/firearm, they need to quick melee/shoot, which breaks immersion and fluidity during gameplay, unlike with a simple press of a dedicated button. If the fluidity of weapon swapping is a concern, a simple tweak to swap animation speed would be enough.

Hah... no.  It's never been so fluid as it is now.  And immersion?  Not the first game I've played where swords are drawn instantaneously only to swiftly start plowing dozens of rounds into a target with two pistols with no holstering/drawing animations in between.  The recent Devil May Cry does this, but it's not the only one.  This is pretty standard fare for video games in general.  Snappy, responsive actions in a fast paced action game take precedence to "immersion" because even a few frames can mean life or death in some of them.  "Immersion" is why my warframe locks in place frequently while reloading a weapon and making a sharp change in direction because the legs and torso need to figure out how to orient themselves and twist around in all sorts of ways before the Warframe will actually move.  Thanks, immersion, for getting me killed when literally no other shooter has this issue.

The rest of your post I don't agree with on an absolutely opinionated level, but I understand that the end result is going to amount to a bit of a shift in how melee works, so there's going to be growing pains for a lot of melee enthusiasts and I do sympathize.  However, from my current experience thus far, I'm enjoying the changes as a run-and-gunner that didn't appreciate the way quick melee felt in most cases, but couldn't stand going dedicated melee because of swap times, so overall the current changes are an improvement in my eyes.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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I'd like they could change or buff channeling on some weapons or do a cool effect  

LIke see the Ether weapons they look good but are garbage look the stats S#&$ty crit and status , they look like bad ass energy weapons, if they could buff those ether weapons with the channel mode, like ignoring %  armour or doing x2 o x3 damage, or giving other effect like burning or melting flesh idunno 

And the combos in personal don't like it, when you have like 1.8 attack speed it's difficult to do the pause combo , i'd rather change is for a keybind  or something like that

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6 minutes ago, DorneliosV said:

I'd like they could change or buff channeling on some weapons or do a cool effect  

LIke see the Ether weapons they look good but are garbage look the stats S#&$ty crit and status , they look like bad ass energy weapons, if they could buff those ether weapons with the channel mode, like ignoring %  armour or doing x2 o x3 damage, or giving other effect like burning or melting flesh idunno 

And the combos in personal don't like it, when you have like 1.8 attack speed it's difficult to do the pause combo , i'd rather change is for a keybind  or something like that

Channeling as it is going away. IT will be replaced with something akin to devil trigger, a super mode that improves overall performance of a frame and might be integrated with focus system.

Also weapon balance, mod reworks, stance changes and other such  things are in the further stages. This is only the hybridization of gunplay and melee.

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I have barely played since the removal of block-glide. They added it back if you give up primary/secondary and run only melee, but it's currently bugged and unplayable all the same.

I'm a 1500+ hour player who they've effectively shunned out of playing their game. It seems apparent to me that 'Melee 3.0' was not designed by veteran players or melee enthusiasts. I'm hanging around awhile longer to see if they fix things for us actual melee players, otherwise cya later, enjoy, bye-bye.

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3 minutes ago, Ofeban said:

I have barely played since the removal of block-glide. They added it back if you give up primary/secondary and run only melee, but it's currently bugged and unplayable all the same.

I'm a 1500+ hour player who they've effectively shunned out of playing their game. It seems apparent to me that 'Melee 3.0' was not designed by veteran players or melee enthusiasts. I'm hanging around awhile longer to see if they fix things for us actual melee players, otherwise cya later, enjoy, bye-bye.

You weren't shunned by bosses that are impossible to melee? It can't be DE's fault for not catering to a niche way of playing their game.

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14 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You weren't shunned by bosses that are impossible to melee? It can't be DE's fault for not catering to a niche way of playing their game.

There's nothing niche about blockglide/aimglide. It's core to any form of advanced movement. The difference is that there's no true melee equivalent, my melee weapons are just sidekicks now.

Edited by Ofeban
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Aw hell naw. Melee 2.9 is the best thing that's happened to this game in a very long time, and Melee 3.0 is going to make it even better still. All those things you list as negatives? Yeah, no, those are actually positives. The only reason you're resistant to these changes is because you're used to the status quo. If WF had started with this system, would you be here making threads about how much better the game would be if weapon swapping was more sluggish and the game requried one more key binding for no good reason? I rather doubt that.

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3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

You should avoid a game in active development if this is how you feel.

My phrase was taken out of context:

DE should avoid drastic alterations such as melee 3.0 that take away so many core elements that are so deeply ingrained in the melee system, lest they create undesirable byproducts such as rendering enemy knockdown mechanics pointless and forcing players into aim glide mid jump via the auto block feature 

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23 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You weren't shunned by bosses that are impossible to melee? It can't be DE's fault for not catering to a niche way of playing their game.

Why is this even a comment, It's DE's FAULT for how melee is in it's present state, it's severely handicapped and broken, not only with bugs and glitches which obviously aren't supposed to be there and intended to be fixed but to go as far as to OMIT completely certain functions that came with melee style gameplay? there was ranged and there was melee and there was a mix in between, then there was only ranged, the "NICHE" as you call it starts crawling out the woodwork (GOD alone knows how you could even quantify what is and isn't a NICHE at this point), and after they crawled out to the forums as if a few zerglings before the horde, a patch hotfix appears that made omitted functions present in MELEE ONLY, and its still broken with bugs and glitches and no more 3 main different playing styles only 2, melee only or guns with melee. 

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It's not catastrophic in my opinion, but it definately changes playstyle to a degree since we will no longer need to do what we are used to do. We will have to get used to it, will take a while probably but we will manage. What I fear of more is Damage 3.0 since it's back on drawing board and since first revealed idea looked catastrophic, we're not saved from it yet.

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26 minutes ago, Fydro56 said:

My phrase was taken out of context:

DE should avoid drastic alterations such as melee 3.0 that take away so many core elements that are so deeply ingrained in the melee system, lest they create undesirable byproducts such as rendering enemy knockdown mechanics pointless and forcing players into aim glide mid jump via the auto block feature 

Then you would rather they fully roll it out and more things break?

Or should they just never change the game, in fear of taking away some feature somebody can't live without?

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9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Then you would rather they fully roll it out and more things break?

Or should they just never change the game, in fear of taking away some feature somebody can't live without?

Instead of taking away "SOME FEATURE SOMEBODY can't live without" and instead of "never changing the game" could have all been satisfied with toggle switches for the modes they propose. "somebody". do you have something against minorities? because it seems you keep thinking this problem is affecting only a minority. A "Niche" as you call it. The melee staple of life and what is life. Look around, not because you aren't bothered by the new updates means that no one else or "ONLY JUST A SOMEBODY" is affected. 

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6 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

could have all been satisfied with toggle switches for the modes they propose

Each option and every combinations of said options need to be supported, then. How is that viable? That would just cause more issues, I can guarantee it.

 

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5 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Each option and every combinations of said options need to be supported, then. How is that viable? That would just cause more issues, I can guarantee it.

 

just like your guarantee on what is quantified as a niche and what isn't because you have all the posts so you have all the know. toggle switch for new melee on, toggle other way for old melee on. yeah some programming in between to flip the switch of the 2 and the programming for old mode already present like need some modifying to tie to switch and deactivate, as it is it's already full of issues with complete take aways which is even worse.

Edited by SilviaS12
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3 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

just like your guarantee on what is quantified and a niche and what isn't because you have all the posts so you have all the know. toggle switch for new melee on, toggle other way for old melee on. yeah some programming in between to flip the switch of the 2 and the programming for old mode already present like need some modifying to tie to switch and deactivate, as it is it's already full of issues with complete take aways which is even worse.

I can guarantee your foolproof method of having two different melee systems active in the game at once would be catastrophic. This was a breaking change and it will be fixed in the time to come. The key to it being fixed is everyone using it. If nobody used it, how would it get fixed? If everyone stayed with what was familiar and didn't try the new system, there would be way more problems in the future.

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Just now, peterc3 said:

I can guarantee your foolproof method of having two different melee systems active in the game at once would be catastrophic. This was a breaking change and it will be fixed in the time to come. The key to it being fixed is everyone using it. If nobody used it, how would it get fixed? If everyone stayed with what was familiar and didn't try the new system, there would be way more problems in the future.

There is still no guarantee from you, additionally it would not be my method regardless of me suggesting it, currently it is catastrophic for a number of players (number being evident with the feedback in which is still growing), 

I agree with what you say onwards they are good questions to ask, but I hope it is in your intentions for balance to be brought back and not tell every player who has a right to state what their experience has become that they can't put fault anywhere nor that they are simply a "niche" as if implying they should not complain because their input and experience matters not. Ideally we make our best suggestions festering hope, thanks for starting to reason with reason.

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1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Aw hell naw. Melee 2.9 is the best thing that's happened to this game in a very long time, and Melee 3.0 is going to make it even better still. All those things you list as negatives? Yeah, no, those are actually positives. The only reason you're resistant to these changes is because you're used to the status quo. If WF had started with this system, would you be here making threads about how much better the game would be if weapon swapping was more sluggish and the game requried one more key binding for no good reason? I rather doubt that.

Dude, I don't know what you are smoking but I would 100% bet that your primary damage output is from a gun.  Mine is quick melee and I would bet that Fydro56's is also quick melee.  There are multiple threads of a lot of other predominantly quick melee players that are HIGHLY dissatisfied with the new changes because it removes a lot of control from the player for melee users.  There was nothing wrong with melee 2.0 in any way in my and many others opinion.  And there is so much broken in combat now it's not playable for me.  And no, it's not being resistant to changes, it's being smart enough to know when you have made something perfectly and don't need to "fix"  it.  It wasn't broken before but it most certainly is now.  They should have spent their time creating new enemies, tilesets, levels, etc. instead of reworking what was nearly perfect before.   

They can continue to do what they want with their game.  But I agree with Fydro56 and I personally feel that they have broken what they had perfectly mastered.  It's made the game unplayable for me and I will miss it because Warframe was a truly great game.  At this point the ball is in DE's court.  They either need to really resolve these with 3.0 or they are going to lose a lot of veteran players like myself.

Edited by Arocken
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