Melee 3.0 would be catastrophic to the game

[Kaotyke]

4 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

Why do people defend a system, which split the community into melee oriented, who've never fired a shot and those who didn't know anything but the quick attack exists?

Quote

They Changed It, Now It Sucks!: A common complaint of many players after the new Damage 2.0 mechanic was introduced in Update 11. For the most part, complaints have subsided once players figured out the new damage system and its increased focus on faction-specific loadouts and elemental combinations.

• Also a common reaction to the new UI introduced in Update 14, with the common complaint being that most menus now take an extra click or two to access.
• Again with the new mod appearances in 14.5. The common consensus is that they look pretty but make it harder to find what you needed.
• In fact, pretty much ANY big update provokes this in spades, especially before the bugs get fixed.

This is from the TVTropes page of Warframe. It used to be MUCH bigger, listing every single backlash, then the people editing saw the patern, took out the rest and just put the final point.

Any major change will provoke complains. This melee change is not even in the top 5.

[IntheCoconut]

I love the new melee changes. I'm trying to understand how instantly swapping, flowing from ranged to melee instantaneously, is somehow less fluid than the old system. I hated the old melee and it felt so clunky and out dated.

With the old melee, I could mindlessly kill whatever I wanted right in front of me until I needed to address stragglers who were off in the distance shooting at me. My only solution was to break off from my intended path to address that one target. I could technically have swapped to ranged combat, but the time it took to sheath my sword and pull out my gun often took longer than keeping my sword out and running over to it to whack it to death, which would mean sacrificing my momentum and sometimes my combo stacks because I went out of my way to kill one enemy. I didn't enjoy the feeling of needing to interrupt my flow.

With the new system, I can use guided ground slam to stay in melee and reach the target much faster than with the old system, or I can just instantly swap to my pistol, snipe the ranged target, and then instantly continue along my designated path to resume my melee killing spree. It is less intrusive, it allows me to flow uninterrupted from one target to the next.

[HexOmega111x]

Probably valid for melee players but in my case, I use melee weapons much more since this patch. I have the feeling now that you indeed have 3 weapons and not 2 + 1.

Not catastrophic for everyone at least. 

 

[Gurpgork]

4 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

until WF shoots itself in its own foot forgetting it is Warframe and not nier automata or dmc and then they can't do it again even if they wanted to when it kills the game from long term boredom after short bursts of fun

No, it's not Nier or DMC, but it's also not the same game we were playing back when they added melee 2.0 in the first place. Warframe was much slower paced back then, and so having a faster and more fluid melee system makes more sense in the lightning fast game we have today. 

Also, how is this going to bring about long term boredom? This is something that directly increases the overall complexity of the game's combat system, which in turn raises the overall skill ceiling. We have more options available to us at any given moment than we ever have, and combat feels much easier and more fluid than it has ever felt. 

[S.Dust]

being honest I dont think i've seen anyone complain about swap time i'm not a fan of the complete removal of quick attacks.

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 minute ago, S.Dust said:

being honest I dont think i've seen anyone complain about swap time i'm not a fan of the complete removal of quick attacks.

The swap time sucked when you already had the ability to do a melee attack to begin with c/o quick melee. I never made any sense that you could just do this quick melee attack that puts your melee weapon in hand and not just keep it drawn. The only time I every swapped to melee was on warframes I had no, or nearly no, intention of using guns/ranged attacks to begin with.

Anyway, the system is definitely on the right road, finally. Looking forward to them cleaning up attack animations and combos across the board.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Would like to see how manual block gets addressed. I used aimglide block extensively for the purposes of parkour and not straining my eyes via ADS. I also manually block to decisively react with situational DR (especially as a Toxic Lash Saryn). I actively used stances in full melee mode, I preferred pause combos over block combos, or whatever combo that suited the field. And for a time, I actively used the block mods for melee (Guardian Derision, Electromagnetic Shielding) to keep aggro or redirect enemy damage for tanking.

Autoblock is a lazy implementation. That’s hard to defend, and undoubtedly imho very unhealthy for the transgression for the game. I’ve suggested many times in tying manual block with the Zoom/ADS key to recreate a universal functionality for both gun and melee mode, and not have Zoom/ADS exclusive to gun mode, to keep to the spirit of manual blocking as I feel that that melee function is necessary for the game in trying to unify both gun and melee into a single instance.

I’ve also read that channeling was suggested to be turned into a toggle on single press instead of being a hold press to keep channeling. For the form factor on both KB&M and controller, I feel that that could be a safe and healthier option for our hands.

I’m anxious about Melee 2.9 and Melee 3.0, but imho it was not a splendid start for melee fanatics and it’s making me not anticipate for the console launch. Boosting weapon swap speeds may have been preferable overall in the limelight of all this, but the sight of seeing combos intertwine with gunplay is what DE wanted to do (without figuring out on how to manage everything else in the process).

If we’re going to continue with Melee 2.9 onto Melee 3.0, stances and melee animations need to be looked at. Quick melee players should also be addressed, so an animation check on first strike and subsequent strikes should be accounted for for melee. Then as a playerbase as a whole we can conclude that melee and gunplay are “seamless and fluid” with one another.

Edited March 14, 2019 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[nlas-slayerkane]

it sure needs tweaks like everything new most of the time , but to call it catastrophic is a bit overkill XD 
work in progress i guess 

[Aldain]

All these complaints about manual blocking, blockglide and quick attacks and I'm just sitting here waiting for the ability to use something other than a glaive with a single handed sidearm.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

From what I've read and watched about this update (since I'm on PS4, and haven't played the changes even though I have a PC account - never could play on a keyboard/mouse setup, and don't have a PC controller), this update is catastrophic to my play style. (No, I've never used spin to win, it's not that.)

I preferred quick melee, even though it wasn't very strong compared to my guns. I hate shooter games in general - I don't find aiming/headshotting to be fun. I use the Arca Plasmor and 2 kitguns (one Catchmoon, the other Tombfinger) for when I absolutely must use ranged weapons (Vay Hek, Lephantis, etc) or when my melee damage is too low (taking down an Ukko or Plains of eidolon tier 5 bounty capture target quickly is much faster (3 shots) with my arca than my Orthos(quick-attack shredding him as I run behind him - which works fine before that point on other capture targets on the starchart))

Quick Melee blended right in with my quick movement, slam attacks, Pocket-sand-finishers on Inaros to restore my life. It kept me mobile, and free to slash through hordes of infested. I never drew my guns unless absolutely my last resort... or strategically useful (blasting an ancient healer behind a ton of grunts) I'd even run into nullifier bubbles to wipe the unit out fast.

My only issues with Melee 2.0 quick-attacks, were:
* the inability to target flying or crawling enemies directly. This is not fixed with Melee 3.0. (the main reason I liked polearms over other melee weapons, since their quick attacks automatically slashed through a high and low angle of attack, allowing me to hit the ospreys and crawlers without bringing out my guns - and they had a satisfying slam attack range - also the main character in a book I'm writing uses twin-bladed polearm glaives as his primary weapon, so it's fun to play how he'd fight.)
* aerial attacks being 1-attack then fall to the ground. This is not fixed with Melee 3.0.
* silly long-delayed sheathing of weapons after a "landing-attack" that triggered near the ground, after a jump. This has not been advertised to be fixed with Melee 3.0.

My issues with 3.0's dedicated melee mode are now FORCED on all melee, with the removal of quick attack melee:|
* I never met a stance I liked. They all restricted my flow of movement and direction of combat.
* Many of them sent my character jumping and moving where I didn't want to go.
* Many would ragdoll enemies AWAY, making them out of reach of my future melee attacks... I mean, really?
* I'd be wildly swinging my blades/daggers/swords/everything at the air, not hitting any enemies, locked in this fancy display, with no results, without being able to defend myself or move to where I wanted to be in range of enemies. (Quick melee had none of these issues!)

Even the Dev displays of the system in motion just reaffirmed how much I'd hate the system. I voiced my concern, but it went unheard.

 

Until Melee 3.0 brings quick-melee functionality to melee, the game will instantly be unplayable to me once this update hits PS4.

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by (PS4)AyinDygra
Formatting

[(PSN)XephonixAwesome]

How about changing controls in the options menu, if possible

[Gruiz]

Oh god another rant of melee 2.9 that is exactly same as many other here..

Veterans always hate change.. why?

[Gruiz]

22 minutes ago, Aldain said:

All these complaints about manual blocking, blockglide and quick attacks and I'm just sitting here waiting for the ability to use something other than a glaive with a single handed sidearm.

Me too mate

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, Gruiz said:

Oh god another rant of melee 2.9 that is exactly same as many other here..

Veterans always hate change.. why?

Most of these complaints are from people with less than 10 posts...

[SordidDreams]

13 hours ago, Arocken said:

Dude, I don't know what you are smoking but I would 100% bet that your primary damage output is from a gun.  Mine is quick melee and I would bet that Fydro56's is also quick melee.  There are multiple threads of a lot of other predominantly quick melee players that are HIGHLY dissatisfied with the new changes because it removes a lot of control from the player for melee users.  There was nothing wrong with melee 2.0 in any way in my and many others opinion.  And there is so much broken in combat now it's not playable for me.  And no, it's not being resistant to changes, it's being smart enough to know when you have made something perfectly and don't need to "fix"  it.  It wasn't broken before but it most certainly is now.  They should have spent their time creating new enemies, tilesets, levels, etc. instead of reworking what was nearly perfect before.   

Nope, to me that still reads as "I don't like it because I was used to the old version". For the record yes, I mainly used guns, because the old melee system sucked. With this change I now use melee a lot more than I used to. So there.

Edited March 14, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Otaiken]

So far there seems to be fewer complaints about melee 3.0 than there were about melee 2.0 and parkour 2.0. It's a bit ironic how people lobby for rollback of a system that wouldn't exist if DE listened to such people back then.

Anyone remember melee 1.0 when charged attack were the most used builds on melee? Melee 2.0 completely removed that (they were added back in much later) and people complained, just like people complain about removal of quick melee now.

Everything will be just fine. Feedback is always gonna be mostly negative anyway because people happy with the game don't take time to make threads on forums.

Edited March 14, 2019 by LocoWithGun

[maxedpotato]

15 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So far there seems to be fewer complaints about melee 3.0 than there were about melee 2.0 and parkour 2.0. It's a bit ironic how people lobby for rollback of a system that wouldn't exist if DE listened to such people back then.

Anyone remember melee 1.0 when charged attack were the most used builds on melee? Melee 2.0 completely removed that (they were added back in much later) and people complained, just like people complain about removal of quick melee now.

Everything will be just fine. Feedback is always gonna be mostly negative anyway because people happy with the game don't take time to make threads on forums.

Melee 3.0 needs polish. There's a lot of bugs, or assumingly unintended actions.
Dropping the data mass mid blocking combo or glide.
Scoping into my sniper rifle mid blocking combo.
Forced to scope in during glides.
It would be nice if we just got an option to switch between melee/guns manually, to satisfy both parties

Edited March 14, 2019 by maxedpotato

[Gruiz]

4 minutes ago, maxedpotato said:

Melee 3.0 needs polish. There's a lot of bugs, or assumingly unintended actions.
Dropping the data mass mid blocking combo or glide.
Scoping into my sniper rifle mid blocking combo.
Forced to scope in during glides.
It would be nice if we just got an option to switch between melee/guns manually, to satisfy both parties

Thats why its called PHASE 1 or Melee 2.9999

It will be polished in next phase

[xxswatelitexx]

So much information the OP posted is wrong.

I think it is meant to be a parody post. 

Manual switching removed? - wrong

Can't manually channel? - wrong

Less Immersive with hot switch with lmb? - wrong

Channeling mods now useless - wrong 

 

In retrospect probably would have been just easier to write the correct points. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by xxswatelitexx

[maxedpotato]

19 minutes ago, Gruiz said:

Thats why its called PHASE 1 or Melee 2.9999

It will be polished in next phase

I wasn't suggesting that it was a finished product.

[Histfire]

19 hours ago, Fydro56 said:

First and foremost it should be said that the countless fixes and updates that are continuously being introduced to the game are greatly appreciated and speak volumes about DE's dedication to make more enjoyable the passion project that is Warframe. However, while these updates are usually positive for the game, the developers should be careful of changes that completely overhaul core aspects of the game which could be earth shatteringly negative; DE should avoid the changes of Melee 3.0.

Firstly, the update removed melee swapping from the dedicated weapon swap button in addition to their animations. Players now have to press the quick melee button to swap to melee and aim/shoot to swap to firearms, and swapped weapons, without any animation, appear out of thin air. This should be avoided; if players want only to swap between melee/firearm, they need to quick melee/shoot, which breaks immersion and fluidity during gameplay, unlike with a simple press of a dedicated button. If the fluidity of weapon swapping is a concern, a simple tweak to swap animation speed would be enough.

Additionally, with the new swapping mechanic, because channeling and blocking shared the same buttons as aim and shoot respectively, players can no longer channel or block manually. With this change, unique enemy knockdown mechanics like snatching and eximus' flaming area of effect abilities that necessitate active engagement through manual blocking would be made obsolete. With this change, countless channeling mods would be made obsolete and melee builds that rely on them would be ruined; several stance mod combos and and their animations would be removed. With this change, the unique dynamic of channel blocking that allowed for enhanced deflection of damage would cease to exist.

While it may be argued that there are aspects of the melee system in need of improvement, a change of such magnitude that affects so many other elements of the game would not be necessary. While it could be argued that some current mechanics are niche and irrelevant, this is purely subjective. It should be emphatically noted that options are important in any game; players who don't care for them don't have to worry about them, and those who do can enjoy them. DE should not restrict options, especially when they already have been available to the players whose satisfaction dictates the success of their game (as for the case with any game).

Ultimately, this update removes complexity and functionality, resulting in a devolution of melee and a less fleshed out system; DE should avoid drastic alterations such as melee 3.0 that take away so many core elements of a system so deeply intertwined with the mechanics and functionality and enjoyment of Warframe.
 

As a fairly new player (109 hours only) still using Excalibur, I really don't like the new changes. Pretty much all of what you said is true and those loving AUTO BLOCK (hold my hand mode) is praised by those who sing DE's tune. The thing is, it doesn't play or look good (autoblock does but it ends there). I know it isn't fully sorted yet, Melee 2.9/3.0, but there is currently some serious issues besides what OP said that is interfering with my melee gameplay. If I use Exalted Blade (Skill 4) it gets stuck when I either run out of energy or sheathe the weapon and sometimes I cannot use any weapons at all. Usually though I am just standing there, empty handed with my arms by my side locked out of melee attacks until I left click and fire a gun. The more firearms you carry the worse Melee gets.

One solution to the way Melee 3.0 is having a beautiful is legacy mode (Melee 2.0 but still with the directional downward slam). I don't like this auto block nonsense. It looks dope but, come on, defending yourself is (was) as easy as right clicking. The continuity at the moment for Firearms / Melee just makes it feel a lot worse for me, even if I am using firearms and a sword. In fact, I used firearms and a sword more often before the Melee update because now it is so clunky.

Give us a legacy mode if you are going this route. You could have made this better by simply extended the combo time where it doesn't deduct from the active combo time until you have fully swapped weapons and then the only thing needing to be added was directional downward slam). Weapon swap mods would still have a use then too. Channelling on MB3... oh great, gotta love that mouse wheel - great for some with stiff mouse wheels like mine, but not everyone does so that'll mean people will need to rebind the key). While my mouse wheel is okay to use as a button, I still don't like it so I am one of those having to rebind channelling... or just not using it.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Histfire

[Ofeban]

4 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

I love the new melee changes. I'm trying to understand how instantly swapping, flowing from ranged to melee instantaneously, is somehow less fluid than the old system. I hated the old melee and it felt so clunky and out dated.

With the old melee, I could mindlessly kill whatever I wanted right in front of me until I needed to address stragglers who were off in the distance shooting at me. My only solution was to break off from my intended path to address that one target. I could technically have swapped to ranged combat, but the time it took to sheath my sword and pull out my gun often took longer than keeping my sword out and running over to it to whack it to death, which would mean sacrificing my momentum and sometimes my combo stacks because I went out of my way to kill one enemy. I didn't enjoy the feeling of needing to interrupt my flow.

With the new system, I can use guided ground slam to stay in melee and reach the target much faster than with the old system, or I can just instantly swap to my pistol, snipe the ranged target, and then instantly continue along my designated path to resume my melee killing spree. It is less intrusive, it allows me to flow uninterrupted from one target to the next.

I don't know how you enjoy melee mode without blockglide/RMB. I used blockglide in tandem with every other movement command, and movement is 50% of melee combat. The other half is pressing LMB. Now without blockglide, I'm out of melee mode every time I issue a basic movement command, RMB. I then have to quick-melee to access my melee weapon again. 

I really like angled slams, but they should be additive to the system that exists, not as a replacement for the nuance and value of blockglide. People that like this change are people that always used melee weapons as sidekicks. I'm the opposite, my primary/secondary were my sidekicks, and I found use for them. I want real melee, and real melee movement, back.

[SilviaS12]

4 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

No, it's not Nier or DMC, but it's also not the same game we were playing back when they added melee 2.0 in the first place. Warframe was much slower paced back then, and so having a faster and more fluid melee system makes more sense in the lightning fast game we have today. 

Also, how is this going to bring about long term boredom? This is something that directly increases the overall complexity of the game's combat system, which in turn raises the overall skill ceiling. We have more options available to us at any given moment than we ever have, and combat feels much easier and more fluid than it has ever felt. 

Speak for yourself in terms of having "more options available" when most "options" were omitted from the game. Remember it was not melee 3.0 that brought warframe to where it is in 2019, it was the previous one, 3.0 is just the previous one with a lot of things removed. As it is right now it is biased to one single gameplay style which is ranged with supplemental melee. Before there were more tha just that. But let's see where this goes as it is currently right?

[OniDax]

Just now, Ofeban said:

I don't know how you enjoy melee mode without blockglide/RMB. I used blockglide in tandem with every other movement command, and movement is 50% of melee combat. The other half is pressing LMB. Now without blockglide, I'm out of melee mode every time I issue a basic movement command, RMB. I then have to quick-melee to access my melee weapon again. 

I really like angled slams, but they should be additive to the system that exists, not as a replacement for the nuance and value of blockglide. People that like this change are people that always used melee weapons as sidekicks. I'm the opposite, my primary/secondary were my sidekicks, and I found use for them. I want real melee, and real melee movement, back.

I feel the same way. IntheCoconut doesn't really sound like a dedicated melee player, since he wanted, and wants, to switch to his gun. He's happy with the changes because that is now more seamless, however that's not how dedicated melee players typically play. We don't want to swtich to our guns. We want to do everything with melee. With this new system, we have literally lost functionality. Can't manually block with melee (unless we unequip all other weapons). Can't block-glide with melee. Can't wall latch with melee. All of these things were basic features of melee 2.0 and were core to the dedicated melee experience. DE has taken all of that away so that gun players and gun+melee players can more quickly switch to melee and access all the combos. They have lost nothing but we dedicated melee players have lost most of the core functionality and movement of melee.

[SilviaS12]

2 hours ago, bibmobello said:

Most of these complaints are from people with less than 10 posts...

Post count doesn't make you a veteran. Most people have been playing for years and had no issues as each update comes by. However this one in particular gave a lot of users a reason to start coming to the forums. Please don't use post count to credit or discredit anyone. Try to be respectful without belittlement.