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Fydro56

Melee 3.0 would be catastrophic to the game

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6 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

Post count doesn't make you a veteran. Most people have been playing for years and had no issues as each update comes by. However this one in particular gave a lot of users a reason to start coming to the forums. Please don't use post count to credit or discredit anyone. Try to be respectful without belittlement.

I've noticed a lot of people for this rework have been rather toxic towards those who have complaints. 

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4 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

This is something that directly increases the overall complexity of the game's combat system,

 

combat feels much easier and more fluid than it has ever felt. 

On a side note auto block block and so many features removed does not increase the overall complexity of anything.

If it more complex as you implied, how is it easier than it's ever felt?

These 2 just don't add up.

Let us get an auto attack while we're at it. Increase the complexity overall some more and make it way easier at the same time. (How this sounds logically is why these 2 don't go together)

Personally I like playing the game for myself, not the game playing itself for me.

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3 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I've noticed a lot of people for this rework have been rather toxic towards those who have complaints. 

Thank you. I have been trying to ignore this but it is not cool. Thanks for acknowledging the obvious and bringing even more light to it

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3 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I've noticed a lot of people for this rework have been rather toxic towards those who have complaints. 

And this is not how such feedback should be construed.

There are a lot of different types of players and styles. Understandably changes come and upset the balance, but as we have stated, this is a function that will evolve with constructive feedback. At no point should this be used as an excuse to belittle, or devalue other players providing said feedback. Please keep your discussions civil, everyone, and make sure your points are described accurately and without unneeded hyperbole or inflammatory statements.

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3 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

And this is not how such feedback should be construed.

There are a lot of different types of players and styles. Understandably changes come and upset the balance, but as we have stated, this is a function that will evolve with constructive feedback. At no point should this be used as an excuse to belittle, or devalue other players providing said feedback. Please keep your discussions civil, everyone, and make sure your points are described accurately and without unneeded hyperbole or inflammatory statements.

Thank you, I've been getting it since my first time on the forums since ever. It's people like you and apollyon that gives people like me hope again for these public communities.

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1 minute ago, SilviaS12 said:

On a side note auto block block and so many features removed does not increase the overall complexity of anything.

If it more complex as you implied, how is it easier than it's ever felt?

These 2 just don't add up.

Let us get an auto attack while we're at it. Increase the complexity overall some more and make it way easier at the same time. (How this sounds logically is why these 2 don't go together)

Personally I like playing the game for myself, not the game playing itself for me.

Yes, because blending together melee, guns and abilities is how a noob plays.

Meanwhile there are people complaining they can no longer just mash E to blend with thir polearms and those are the real MVPs.

Melee mains are NOT the pros of WF community, have never been and never will be. This strange new view that melee 3.0 is supposed to dumb down everything is laughable at best.

Last two expansions were focused on open world content. With the much beloved Melee 2.0 if you play melee and only melee you have to resolve yourself to cover HUGE distances in melee mode (that's why you need the block glide?), slowly swap weapons back and forth (which everybody hates) or stay in gun mode and resolve yourself to mash quick melee when you need to melee anything.

If you get the idea that using only melee and nothing else is a playstyle poorly supported by DE it's because it absolutely is. That is by far the dumbest and most tedious way you can play on the open world maps.

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1 minute ago, LocoWithGun said:

Yes, because blending together melee, guns and abilities is how a noob plays.

Meanwhile there are people complaining they can no longer just mash E to blend with thir polearms and those are the real MVPs.

Melee mains are NOT the pros of WF community, have never been and never will be. This strange new view that melee 3.0 is supposed to dumb down everything is laughable at best.

Last two expansions were focused on open world content. With the much beloved Melee 2.0 if you play melee and only melee you have to resolve yourself to cover HUGE distances in melee mode (that's why you need the block glide?), slowly swap weapons back and forth (which everybody hates) or stay in gun mode and resolve yourself to mash quick melee when you need to melee anything.

If you get the idea that using only melee and nothing else is a playstyle poorly supported by DE it's because it absolutely is. That is by far the dumbest and most tedious way you can play on the open world maps.

If you play melee and only melee, then you won't be swapping weapons back and forth. And, once again, you're demeaning people because of their play style.

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Meh. They needed to revamp it.

I'm not going to pass judgement till I can feel it myself.

But its obvious the Current (on console) /old (on pc) melee system was designed around Devil May Cry. Which I LOVE to death...but it was flawed for Warframe.

1. Enemies don't react to attacks like they do in DMC.

2. Enemies cannot be juggled in the air like they can in DMC.

3. Dodging does not grant invulnerability in Warframe. In DMC it does.

4. Warframe lacks jump cancels. Which is vital in DMC.

5. DMC combos are varied but not as insane as Warframe's combos.

6. Fluid & instant swapping between weapons & weapon types.

If DE were to keep the old system. They would need to purge the stances of 75% of their combos, add in jump cancels, &  most importantly...add in physics & true impact for enemies.

In other words, enemies need to be staggered/interupted by melee hits, each hit needs to make them flinch, have minor knockback, with some hits/combos knocking them into air, aerial combat needs to be a thing at that point, aerial combos & juggles, knock down to enemies would mean more, & ragdolling would impo need to be reduced heavily (unless it's a corpse).

From what the showed on devstreams...the swapping is phase one of somewhat going this route. As in DMC the weapon swaps are instant & mid combo even, additionally the new attack method seems to be a step in the simple yet deep system DMC games have.

It's still too early to call but I think if DE isn't afraid to let us manhandle (not what we current do with is 1-shot) enemies then the system could be something crazy.

Lord knows I'd love to knock a Nox into the air & unleash a 48 hit combo on his punk a....*ahem*

I digress...

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18 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

Thank you, I've been getting it since my first time on the forums since ever. It's people like you and apollyon that gives people like me hope again for these public communities.

whoever laughed at this thanks. whether you're trying to make fun of my comment or not it adds to my respect so thanks, you should quote me so I can give you the same respect in return.

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21 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Yes, because blending together melee, guns and abilities is how a noob plays.

Meanwhile there are people complaining they can no longer just mash E to blend with thir polearms and those are the real MVPs.

Melee mains are NOT the pros of WF community, have never been and never will be. This strange new view that melee 3.0 is supposed to dumb down everything is laughable at best.

Last two expansions were focused on open world content. With the much beloved Melee 2.0 if you play melee and only melee you have to resolve yourself to cover HUGE distances in melee mode (that's why you need the block glide?), slowly swap weapons back and forth (which everybody hates) or stay in gun mode and resolve yourself to mash quick melee when you need to melee anything.

If you get the idea that using only melee and nothing else is a playstyle poorly supported by DE it's because it absolutely is. That is by far the dumbest and most tedious way you can play on the open world maps.

couldn't agree anymore. playing equipping melee alone to have the necessary functions of being in melee mode is not cool, I can't change playstyles on the fly anymore, as it is you have to choose how you want to play before going on a mission with the sacrifice of one or the other.

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23 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Melee mains are NOT the pros of WF community, have never been and never will be.

What does this even mean?

This strange new view that melee 3.0 is supposed to dumb down everything is laughable at best.

Implying Melee mains want it to be dumbed down.

Not wise to generalize.

Anyways, as for Phase 1 itself, I would have preferred just releasing it all at once without phases.
"Flow" doesn't affect me since my melee is out at all times, while putting in the slam changes without the base range changes just forces me to gap close more once enemies go flying.
Looking at the replies, it just seems like without the additional phases put into the game phase 1 just caused more problems than it solved.

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25 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

Thank you, I've been getting it since my first time on the forums since ever. It's people like you and apollyon that gives people like me hope again for these public communities.

With all due respect, reading your comments in this thread you put out a lot of barbs and aggression towards other people's comments. That's bad form. 

As for the topic itself. I personally don't believe Melee 3.0 will be "catastrophic", and some of the arguments I've seen towards the matter use some flawed logic.

The current state of melee is certainly in a rough state right now. Some of the new changes were good, I can definitely string combos between guns and melee far better, but the system needs a whole lot more polish. For example, I personally don't like the auto-block. My experience with it has been more interruptive (combos interrupted, unreliable usage.)than supportive. I think a return to manual blocking would be a better fit while in melee mode. 

But overall, as a person going into Game Development, I feel this is how it has to be. If you wish to make a new system better, you sometimes have to crack the old system apart to see the flaws and good pieces.  It's going to change either way though so people need to stop complaining and give more solid advice on how to improve the new system.

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5 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

couldn't agree anymore. playing equipping melee alone to have the necessary functions of being in melee mode is not cool, I can't change playstyles on the fly anymore, as it is you have to choose how you want to play before going on a mission with the sacrifice of one or the other.

So you consider block glide and manual blocking necessary functions to melee only playstyle?

If I were to play a mission only using melee without those functions and succeed would that make your argument false?

What defines melee only playstyle in your mind to begin with? Because I for example never really used block glide (bullet jump, roll, jump attack are better for mobility) and rarely bothered to block as well. From my extensive testing the most damage I sustain in melee is when I'm actually attacking (and hence can't block). When approaching I'm mostly up in the air and enemies have a hard time hitting me. They could remove blocking completely and it would make 0 difference to my "melee only" playstyle.

Then there's the fact that so many melee frames are outright invulnerable anyway (gotta block those 0 damage bullets).

Either one of us is playing the melee only thing wrong or these things are not as important as people say.

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34 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Yes, because blending together melee, guns and abilities is how a noob plays.

Meanwhile there are people complaining they can no longer just mash E to blend with thir polearms and those are the real MVPs.

Melee mains are NOT the pros of WF community, have never been and never will be. This strange new view that melee 3.0 is supposed to dumb down everything is laughable at best.

Last two expansions were focused on open world content. With the much beloved Melee 2.0 if you play melee and only melee you have to resolve yourself to cover HUGE distances in melee mode (that's why you need the block glide?), slowly swap weapons back and forth (which everybody hates) or stay in gun mode and resolve yourself to mash quick melee when you need to melee anything.

If you get the idea that using only melee and nothing else is a playstyle poorly supported by DE it's because it absolutely is. That is by far the dumbest and most tedious way you can play on the open world maps.

Why do you care if others want to play the game that way?
If someone else only wants to use melee, then how does this pose a problem to you?
There's no reason not to support as many playstyles as possible. Warframe is, and will Always be a casual game. Where people can, and will opt to using less optimal ways of playing the game.

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11 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

With all due respect, reading your comments in this thread you put out a lot of barbs and aggression towards other people's comments. That's bad form. 

As for the topic itself. I personally don't believe Melee 3.0 will be "catastrophic", and some of the arguments I've seen towards the matter use some flawed logic.

The current state of melee is certainly in a rough state right now. Some of the new changes were good, I can definitely string combos between guns and melee far better, but the system needs a whole lot more polish. For example, I personally don't like the auto-block. My experience with it has been more interruptive (combos interrupted, unreliable usage.)than supportive. I think a return to manual blocking would be a better fit while in melee mode. 

But overall, as a person going into Game Development, I feel this is how it has to be. If you wish to make a new system better, you sometimes have to crack the old system apart to see the flaws and good pieces.  It's going to change either way though so people need to stop complaining and give more solid advice on how to improve the new system.

well I apologize if I come off as aggressive. but you will get responses that come off that way when the very same people like yourself start telling other players they should stop complaining or not say anything or share their experiences. with all due respect you or anyone on this forum will not make me stop from giving my opinions.  I suggest trying to reason with others instead of telling them what they should or shouldn't do for so long as they are not insulting others or being disrespectful.

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8 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So you consider block glide and manual blocking necessary functions to melee only playstyle?

If I were to play a mission only using melee without those functions and succeed would that make your argument false?

What defines melee only playstyle in your mind to begin with? Because I for example never really used block glide (bullet jump, roll, jump attack are better for mobility) and rarely bothered to block as well. From my extensive testing the most damage I sustain in melee is when I'm actually attacking (and hence can't block). When approaching I'm mostly up in the air and enemies have a hard time hitting me. They could remove blocking completely and it would make 0 difference to my "melee only" playstyle.

Then there's the fact that so many melee frames are outright invulnerable anyway (gotta block those 0 damage bullets).

Either one of us is playing the melee only thing wrong or these things are not as important as people say.

well for some it is and isn't. I use alot of melee but I definitely use guns too. Having block glide is what I mainly use for mobility and I mostly attack with melee. sometimes I switch it up and go ranged to take out targets from a distance and quick melee if any enemies get too close to my vantage point, but that can't be done on the fly anymore, I am no good at gliding with my primary because it zooms in, I can use secondary to get back a similar field or view but I almost always attack melee diving in when gliding. 0 damage bullets? I don't know about that at all. when farming and reaching high levels of the waves those bullets start to hurt. even with a full squad to the point everyone will try to make it just enough to extract.

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1 minute ago, SilviaS12 said:

well I apologize if I come off as aggressive. but you will get responses that come off that way when the very same people like yourself start telling other players they should stop complaining or not say anything or share their experiences. with all due respect you or anyone on this forum will make me stop from giving my opinions.  I suggest trying to reason with others instead of telling them what they should or shouldn't do for so long as they are not insulting others or being disrespectful.

You misunderstand my methodology. In development there is a significant difference between complaints and negative feedback. Complaints are directionless, simply there to express one's discontent and forget to provide any meaningful input(i.e. solutions, alternatives, thoughts). These complaints end up as useless unfortunately as nothing is gained from them but a general sense of displeasure. Negative feedback is different. If handled politely, it gives insight into the why of the displeasure while also giving a direction in which a solution might be found. It is unfortunate, but I've seen many posts that simply lash out without purpose, and end up providing nothing. I simply want people to actually make use of their displeasure in a positive fashion. Many simply can't be polite about what they find wrong though.... unfortunate.

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24 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So you consider block glide and manual blocking necessary functions to melee only playstyle?

If I were to play a mission only using melee without those functions and succeed would that make your argument false?

What defines melee only playstyle in your mind to begin with? Because I for example never really used block glide (bullet jump, roll, jump attack are better for mobility) and rarely bothered to block as well. From my extensive testing the most damage I sustain in melee is when I'm actually attacking (and hence can't block). When approaching I'm mostly up in the air and enemies have a hard time hitting me. They could remove blocking completely and it would make 0 difference to my "melee only" playstyle.

Then there's the fact that so many melee frames are outright invulnerable anyway (gotta block those 0 damage bullets).

Either one of us is playing the melee only thing wrong or these things are not as important as people say.

Warframe is, above all else, centered around fluid movement and parkour. We can agree on this, right? Whether you focus on guns, melee weapons or warframe abilities, being able to move quickly and efficiently is what facilitates everything else. 

Bullet jump straight up? RMB to cancel my momentum and gain control of my character. Now that I'm mid-air? While holding RMB and pressing A+shift(left+dodge roll) I can maintain my mid-air height while flipping to the left. I'm summarizing, but I use a plethora of mechanics similar to that to rapidly parkour through stages, beating Volts and Nova primes all the time with basic cancelling mechanics.

Blockglide is important because it's how I move while staying ready with my weapon of choice. Not to mention it's a straight upgrade from aimglide, it doesn't zoom my camera and mess with my field of view.

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29 minutes ago, SilviaS12 said:

well for some it is and isn't. I use alot of melee but I definitely use guns too. Having block glide is what I mainly use for mobility and I mostly attack with melee. sometimes I switch it up and go ranged to take out targets from a distance and quick melee if any enemies get too close to my vantage point, but that can't be done on the fly anymore, I am no good at gliding with my primary because it zooms in, I can use secondary to get back a similar field or view but I almost always attack melee diving in when gliding. 0 damage bullets? I don't know about that at all. when farming and reaching high levels of the waves those bullets start to hurt. even with a full squad to the point everyone will try to make it just enough to extract.

I can say that while aim gliding with melee out isn't a NECESSITY, it was definitely a nice option to have. Especially now that there's no way to really lock into melee mode unless you only equip a melee weapon. Thinking maybe what they should do is include an option to allow those who want to to toggle into melee mode like before, but allow for the hot-swapping as well. I personally really loved melee mode from the prior system. I'd love a hybrid of the two with default allowing for hot swapping and then by pressing a button switch to melee exclusively until you press that button again. Also, not sure if it's just me but right now block seems broken if you do only a melee weapon equipped? Seems to toggle block and won't let me untoggle unless I do an attack.

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28 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

You misunderstand my methodology. In development there is a significant difference between complaints and negative feedback. Complaints are directionless, simply there to express one's discontent and forget to provide any meaningful input(i.e. solutions, alternatives, thoughts). These complaints end up as useless unfortunately as nothing is gained from them but a general sense of displeasure. Negative feedback is different. If handled politely, it gives insight into the why of the displeasure while also giving a direction in which a solution might be found. It is unfortunate, but I've seen many posts that simply lash out without purpose, and end up providing nothing. I simply want people to actually make use of their displeasure in a positive fashion. Many simply can't be polite about what they find wrong though.... unfortunate.

I appreciate the clarity. I agree with you on this wholesomely, I will try my utmost best to not let anger get on top of my frustration with the posts that are offensive (whether to me personally or a player base as a whole) which I always try to do when responding to other players as we all know hen la hen hate breeds hate.

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2 hours ago, Ofeban said:

I don't know how you enjoy melee mode without blockglide/RMB. I used blockglide in tandem with every other movement command, and movement is 50% of melee combat. The other half is pressing LMB. Now without blockglide, I'm out of melee mode every time I issue a basic movement command, RMB. I then have to quick-melee to access my melee weapon again. 

I really like angled slams, but they should be additive to the system that exists, not as a replacement for the nuance and value of blockglide. People that like this change are people that always used melee weapons as sidekicks. I'm the opposite, my primary/secondary were my sidekicks, and I found use for them. I want real melee, and real melee movement, back.

I can still aim-glide with my guns. Yes, its a bit annoying because I'm aiming down sights, but because weapon swapping is instant, I don't lose anything by it, at least not in terms of maneuverability and/or navigation. The moment I land (or ground slam) I just hit melee and away I go. I can see it as being a bit of a nerf though, because you are right, I'm no longer blocking projectiles while aim-gliding when I used to be. But personally, I just used block-gliding for navigation and not specifically for the blocking part, and since I still haven't lost the instant navigation functionality of aim-gliding, it doesn't really upset me. But if you really want block gliding, just don't bring ranged weapons at all and you'll resume using your sword to block-glide like in melee 2.0.

Beyond that, I honestly never used block, other than for Guardian Derision builds, because it just makes more sense for me to bullet-jump to an enemy and kill them instead of running my way over to them while blocking, all the while still taking damage because most weapon types offer abysmal blocking resist anyway. Hell, I even prefer rolling to blocking because the innate 75% damage resist from rolling is still better than most melee weapon's blocking damage resistance (with the exception of a few weapon types like polearms and claws).

 

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I feel the same way. IntheCoconut doesn't really sound like a dedicated melee player, since he wanted, and wants, to switch to his gun. He's happy with the changes because that is now more seamless, however that's not how dedicated melee players typically play. We don't want to swtich to our guns. We want to do everything with melee. With this new system, we have literally lost functionality. Can't manually block with melee (unless we unequip all other weapons). Can't block-glide with melee. Can't wall latch with melee. All of these things were basic features of melee 2.0 and were core to the dedicated melee experience. DE has taken all of that away so that gun players and gun+melee players can more quickly switch to melee and access all the combos. They have lost nothing but we dedicated melee players have lost most of the core functionality and movement of melee.

Melee weapons are my jam, and ranged weapons are my sidekicks. I even bring thrown weapons as my secondary because, while yes they are still ranged, it just fits the theme of wanting to be a bad-ass sword-wielding space ninja that slaughters everything in front of their path, whether by sword or throwing knife. If, however, you don't want to utilize all of the tools available to you, and you don't ever want to touch a ranged weapon, then don't equip one. If you go into battle with only your melee weapon equipped, you can block-guide without worrying about your ranged weapon getting in the way. How's that for melee dedication? If you want 100% melee, there is nothing stopping you, just ditch the ranged weapons that you aren't using anyway.

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11 minutes ago, Cradicias said:

I can say that while aim gliding with melee out isn't a NECESSITY, it was definitely a nice option to have. Especially now that there's no way to really lock into melee mode unless you only equip a melee weapon. Thinking maybe what they should do is include an option to allow those who want to to toggle into melee mode like before, but allow for the hot-swapping as well. I personally really loved melee mode from the prior system. I'd love a hybrid of the two with default allowing for hot swapping and then by pressing a button switch to melee exclusively until you press that button again. Also, not sure if it's just me but right now block seems broken if you do only a melee weapon equipped? Seems to toggle block and won't let me untoggle unless I do an attack.

Tenno I feel as if we are one in the same, maybe just got off on the wrong foot and that's alright, I see why you say it's not a necessity as it can be done without it in fact, but I still do prefer to glide with melee mainly for diving into battle or just fast movement with a great field of vision(no zoom effect). a nice option it indeed is, and I think a toggle switch for using that mode or the other as well as a toggle for autoblock on or off is also very helpful to maintain the balance of both player styles as you rightfully suggest.

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8 minutes ago, Ofeban said:

Warframe is, above all else, centered around fluid movement and parkour. We can agree on this, right? Whether you focus on guns, melee weapons or warframe abilities, being able to move quickly and efficiently is what facilitates everything else. 

Bullet jump straight up? RMB to cancel my momentum and gain control of my character. Now that I'm mid-air? While holding RMB and pressing A+shift(left+dodge roll) I can maintain my mid-air height while flipping to the left. I'm summarizing, but I use a plethora of mechanics similar to that to rapidly parkour through stages, beating Volts and Nova primes all the time with basic cancelling mechanics.

Blockglide is important because it's how I move while staying ready with my weapon of choice. Not to mention it's a straight upgrade from aimglide, it doesn't zoom my camera and mess with my field of view.

So your entire issue is that little zoom you get from guns? And don't say snipers this and that because people have been running snipers for ages and they don't all bother switching to melee just so they can glide. Mobility is exactly the same so zoom becomes the only argument for dedicated melee glide.

It would be more useful to have a keybind just for glide zoom than to have one just for melee glide.

And melee glide is not an upgrade to aim glide. I can actually shoot enemies while doing all of those things when I have a gun. You're sporting all of your buffs and nullifier just walks out in the place you were about to land. Is melee glide an upgrade then?

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7 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So your entire issue is that little zoom you get from guns? And don't say snipers this and that because people have been running snipers for ages and they don't all bother switching to melee just so they can glide. Mobility is exactly the same so zoom becomes the only argument for dedicated melee glide.

It would be more useful to have a keybind just for glide zoom than to have one just for melee glide.

And melee glide is not an upgrade to aim glide. I can actually shoot enemies while doing all of those things when I have a gun. You're sporting all of your buffs and nullifier just walks out in the place you were about to land. Is melee glide an upgrade then?

I guess for his playstyle like mine as well it is a preference over the other, so he percieved it as an upgrade over the other, I still think its preference but we had aim glide and block glide on the fly of a switch before, now its equip and stick with it, I do use aim glide to accomplish the challenges but i mainly use sniper with my melee. I don't think the zoom issue is the only excuse for block glide though, players who use melee more will utilize block guide to advanced (forward) in battle typically with a spin slash after landing or a ground slam (loving the directional ground slam) so having melee ready is more convenient than aim gliding to get close instead of blocking incoming attacks (I'm strictly not a fan of auto block for this because would it even work whilst aim gliding? in any case I straight up prefer to play the game for myself auto block is just not playing the game)

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12 hours ago, CxLL said:

@Fydro56 have you forgotten to add "in my opinion" somewhere in there or... are you perhaps... the prophet we've all been waiting for?
Goodness gracious! Do you do 1 on 1 healing sessions too? My cat has an ear that keeps leaking. Tell me when you're available!

When writing an informed thesis, it is not appropriate to include such phrases.

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