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Captain_Of_Red

Self Damage and Cautious Shot

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Why does self damage still virtually one shot every frame from full health? So many weapons still do more damage to you than they do to enemies. Pentas, Ogris, Talons, almost any explosive weapon has crippling self damage that prevents them from being useful in close range while not providing damage to compensate. The Risk/Reward is terrible.


Now I'm not saying every explosive weapon is bad by any means. There are plenty of good ones. I'm saying that it's not a fun mechanic and it doesn't make sense for it to stay as incredibly damaging as it is. 

There's no option to see the explosion hitboxes more accurately and the graphics are misleading on many(especially with + blast range), making it hard to avoid your own explosions or judge whether or not they'll hit enemies. 

It would be amazing if self damage was reduced to levels at which it isn't super risky to use them in general. Something like capping the damage at a % of maximum health/shield. Maybe a mod in the Exilus or Aura slot that increases that threshold to give you options to enhance their usability, much like Rifle Amp and Steel Charge for their respective weapon types. 

Cautious Shot isn't a viable candidate for self damage reduction. Sacrificing weapon damage AND valuable weapon mod space isn't what it should take to not die in one shot from your own gun in a PvE game with hordes of enemies.

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yes, you shouldn't have to waste mod space and potential damage to prevent you from killing yourself.  That's why you practice and use your best judgement.  I think it goes without saying as well to not use explosives at close range, use melees or your sidearm.

I don't want to return to the days of rampant explosive weapon spam.

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Honestly? Take the time to familiarize yourself with the weapon. It's not hard to learn your modded weapon's explosion radius and be aware of it without needing to think about it actively every time you take a shot, in much the same way that you learn the range of a melee weapon by use and don't have to think about being x meters away from a target. Cautious Shot isn't necessary, nor is any other mod or mechanic change. 

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41 minutes ago, Wolfglaive said:

Honestly? Take the time to familiarize yourself with the weapon. It's not hard to learn your modded weapon's explosion radius and be aware of it without needing to think about it actively every time you take a shot, in much the same way that you learn the range of a melee weapon by use and don't have to think about being x meters away from a target. Cautious Shot isn't necessary, nor is any other mod or mechanic change. 

If you miss a melee attack, you miss a melee attack. That's it. You close in and try again. If you miss an explosive attack, you are instantly killed and require a revive, or even better, in Arbitrations you are instantly killed, no save, quit the match. This is absurd given that there is maybe one explosive weapon which can compete at the top tier of weapons in terms of raw stats, the Lenz.

Oh yeah and I think it's pretty telling that the Lenz has much higher riven disposition than other top-tier weapons like the Vaykor Hek and the Tigris P. Because people use it a lot less. Because you can get almost as much firepower without the concern that a single mistake might lead to a failure cascade in difficult content and will interrupt your gameplay in easier content.

Literally for every other weapon, weapons that mind you are about as good at killing crowds, a badly placed shot at most means you lose time and a round of ammunition. However, for most launchers, a screwed-up shot instantly kills you. This is absolutely out of proportion to how basically every single weapon in the game works and there is zero reason for it. It's hardly like launchers in Warframe are the equivalent of Destiny's power weapons, which deal ludicrously higher DPS than any other weapon and you're expected to fire them a bare handful of times in a single mission. They're supposed to be fired a lot, just like literally every other weapon in the game, often in tight quarters because despite how Vallis and Plains exist, a lot of the game takes place in close quarters combat where it is easy to misjudge distances and kill yourself and every single time it's incredibly frustrating.

The solution to this, which is what you learn when you "take the time to familiarize yourself with the weapon," is to use a Warframe with survivability powers, stand on a crate or another elevated position, and then spam the launcher, which not only demonstrates how farcial it is to claim that self-damage is somehow necessary or balances launchers, but makes it so that launchers are most useful when you play the game like a turret and avoid interacting with a lot of the game.

It's time for Warframe to take out self-damage in its entirety, because it serves exactly zero purpose in terms of actually creating interesting gameplay.

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5 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

-snip-

The only consequence for missing is that you miss? If you miss a melee strike, it can lead to death, just like with any other weapon. The problem with explosive weapons is that it's MUCH harder to miss by nature of their large explosive radii. Balancing that requires self-damage as a consequence for carelessness, because you're practically guaranteed to hit an enemy. There's a reason that explosive weapons aren't overused like the Tonkor was. They're powerful, but dangerous, and they ought to remain that way. 

I fire my Penta, Lenz, Ogris, and all manner of other self-damage weaponry plenty in closed space missions with no issue, on any frame. I'm sorry that you feel that way, but they're dangerous for a reason.

And when I said take the time to familiarize yourself with a weapon, I MEANT take the time to familiarize yourself with it. It's not remotely difficult to learn the radius of the explosion, and it requires none of the things you describe unless you're too lazy to learn. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wolfglaive said:

 

The only consequence for missing is that you miss? If you miss a melee strike, it can lead to death, just like with any other weapon. The problem with explosive weapons is that it's MUCH harder to miss by nature of their large explosive radii. Balancing that requires self-damage as a consequence for carelessness, because you're practically guaranteed to hit an enemy. There's a reason that explosive weapons aren't overused like the Tonkor was. They're powerful, but dangerous, and they ought to remain that way. 

I fire my Penta, Lenz, Ogris, and all manner of other self-damage weaponry plenty in closed space missions with no issue, on any frame. I'm sorry that you feel that way, but they're dangerous for a reason.

And when I said take the time to familiarize yourself with a weapon, I MEANT take the time to familiarize yourself with it. It's not remotely difficult to learn the radius of the explosion, and it requires none of the things you describe unless you're too lazy to learn. 

Most melee weapons have immensely large sweep radii that can be made even larger by the use of Reach mods, it is just as hard to miss with them as it is with the launchers. They are at least as forgiving, if not moreso, than the explosive weapons and they don't kill you if your shot is off or if you misclick or if someone runs in front of you just as you fire or an enemy runs in front of you or a billion other things that can happen to screw you over if you use an explosive weapon every time you fire. Oh yeah, and said melee weapons have more damage output than the Penta or Ogris to boot. 

The problem with explosive weapons is that self-damage weapons are not a good match for a fast-paced close-quarters game, doubly so when the weapon instantly kills you if you so much as wing yourself with it, outside of the most ludicrously durable Warframes stacking defensive bonuses. I used the Penta, Lenz, Ogris, and all manner of self-damage weaponry plenty in closed spaces. Every few missions, I would end up going down because a grenade bounced where I didn't expect it, or I misjudged a shot by a handful of pixels, or someone walked in front of me, or an enemy decided to pop up in an unexpected location.

But apparently this is the price I should pay if I want to use a launcher weapon rather than a shotgun, which is just as easy to use, practically speaking is just as if not more accurate in most typical combat scenarios because all the launchers fire slow projectiles, and many of them fire slow arcing projectiles, deals more damage to single targets while retaining effectiveness against packed lighter targets, and are generally equal to or better than launchers. I should just randomly explode every so often because the game "requires self-damage as a consequence for carelessness." Because some people can't even understand that not every game needs to be deliberately designed to be punishing. And Warframe's implementation of self-damage is punishing to an extent I've only seen in the original Ghost Recon, where 'short range engagement' meant '100+m shots,' 10% accuracy for non-sniper weapons was considered good, and grenades had far greater kill radii against targets. It is absurdly punishing despite the fact that none of the self-damaging weapons have stats out of line with the non-self damaging weapons.

There is absolutely zero need for self-damage to keep launchers in line with other weapons. There are a whole set of other weapon behaviors that can eliminate the frustration of self-damage and yet serve the same functionality should it prove necessary, and moreover the stats on most launchers are mediocre enough that these behaviors are by and large not necessary. And even if there was a need for self-damage to keep launchers in line with other weapons, the current implementation of self-damage, where it instantly kills you so long as you're running a decently modded weapon, is absolutely not necessary.

Edited by MJ12
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Yup even with the mod to help you not kill yourself you can still kill yourself on any non tanky frame still. I am of the opinion that all explosive weapons should deal unmodded damage to you at most to give you some margin for error and not blow yourself up all the time. Or maybe make it so you always have 1HP left at a minimum so you have a chance of survival as another solution. I say all of this as a seasoned Zarr User and someone who had to spend so much time to learn the safe distance to shoot with it.

Another problem with them though is they don't do enough damage for the downsides attached with them. So if it HAS to do full self damage I would prefer all explosive weapons get a sizable damage buff to make up for it. Or alternatively make Cautious shot give no damage decrease and a 100% reduction to self damage so it is worth the mod slot. All of this I have said is unlikely to happen and I am well aware of that but people should not be afraid of the mostly underwhelming weapon type killing them... (AKA only the Zarr and Lenz seem to be worth using!)

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2 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Most melee weapons have immensely large sweep radii that can be made even larger by the use of Reach mods, it is just as hard to miss with them as it is with the launchers. They are at least as forgiving, if not moreso, than the explosive weapons and they don't kill you if your shot is off or if you misclick or if someone runs in front of you just as you fire or an enemy runs in front of you or a billion other things that can happen to screw you over if you use an explosive weapon every time you fire. Oh yeah, and said melee weapons have more damage output than the Penta or Ogris to boot. 

The problem with explosive weapons is that self-damage weapons are not a good match for a fast-paced close-quarters game, doubly so when the weapon instantly kills you if you so much as wing yourself with it, outside of the most ludicrously durable Warframes stacking defensive bonuses. I used the Penta, Lenz, Ogris, and all manner of self-damage weaponry plenty in closed spaces. Every few missions, I would end up going down because a grenade bounced where I didn't expect it, or I misjudged a shot by a handful of pixels, or someone walked in front of me, or an enemy decided to pop up in an unexpected location.

But apparently this is the price I should pay if I want to use a launcher weapon rather than a shotgun, which is just as easy to use, practically speaking is just as if not more accurate in most typical combat scenarios because all the launchers fire slow projectiles, and many of them fire slow arcing projectiles, deals more damage to single targets while retaining effectiveness against packed lighter targets, and are generally equal to or better than launchers. I should just randomly explode every so often because the game "requires self-damage as a consequence for carelessness." Because some people can't even understand that not every game needs to be deliberately designed to be punishing. And Warframe's implementation of self-damage is punishing to an extent I've only seen in the original Ghost Recon, where 'short range engagement' meant '100+m shots,' 10% accuracy for non-sniper weapons was considered good, and grenades had far greater kill radii against targets. It is absurdly punishing despite the fact that none of the self-damaging weapons have stats out of line with the non-self damaging weapons.

There is absolutely zero need for self-damage to keep launchers in line with other weapons. There are a whole set of other weapon behaviors that can eliminate the frustration of self-damage and yet serve the same functionality should it prove necessary, and moreover the stats on most launchers are mediocre enough that these behaviors are by and large not necessary. And even if there was a need for self-damage to keep launchers in line with other weapons, the current implementation of self-damage, where it instantly kills you so long as you're running a decently modded weapon, is absolutely not necessary.

Melee weapons also by and large require close quarters, therein lies the risk. Likewise, adding reach to a weapon makes the visible model different from the hitbox, meaning you still have to familiarize yourself with the weapon's new affect. 

If you go down continually because of the self-damage, that's on you. It's very easy to be mindful, I've said this numerous times and it's demonstrable. You have no said a single thing new or impactful to this point. That you think self-damage shouldn't be in the game is already abundantly clear, but your reasoning is fairly flimsy considering how ridiculously easy it is to avoid self damage. It isn't punishing unless you lack the ability to remember not to fire an explosive weapon at your feet or in close quarters, or your situational awareness is so poor that you fire indiscriminately despite knowing that enemies and allies can jump in front of you (again, not difficult to avoid if you're mindful). If you can't adapt to a mechanic that is so predictable and simple, don't use explosive weapons, and that goes double if you think other weapons are a better option. Use the better option, it isn't difficult. 
 

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The responses seem to vary between 'self damage prevents tomfoolery' and 'git gud' which... kinda defeats the purpose of this mod. Still if the mod doesn't... justify its own existence (as in, the self damage reduction still results in insta-downing from range), perhaps the mechanism by which it operates could be altered to find a happy medium between 'I can use an ogris at point blank range' and 'What the hell did it hit?!'

What if it was altered to, instead of being a damage reduction, instead ensured that a percentage of your current hp was left (rounded down) after nailing yourself with an explosive? That way if you're at low health (ie from using it before) you will still probably land on your back, but a one-off bullet-jump-in-my-face won't leave you down for the count.

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12 hours ago, Wolfglaive said:

Melee weapons also by and large require close quarters, therein lies the risk. Likewise, adding reach to a weapon makes the visible model different from the hitbox, meaning you still have to familiarize yourself with the weapon's new affect. 

If you go down continually because of the self-damage, that's on you. It's very easy to be mindful, I've said this numerous times and it's demonstrable. You have no said a single thing new or impactful to this point. That you think self-damage shouldn't be in the game is already abundantly clear, but your reasoning is fairly flimsy considering how ridiculously easy it is to avoid self damage. It isn't punishing unless you lack the ability to remember not to fire an explosive weapon at your feet or in close quarters, or your situational awareness is so poor that you fire indiscriminately despite knowing that enemies and allies can jump in front of you (again, not difficult to avoid if you're mindful). If you can't adapt to a mechanic that is so predictable and simple, don't use explosive weapons, and that goes double if you think other weapons are a better option. Use the better option, it isn't difficult. 
 

Simply pulling out a melee weapon decreases incoming damage in a 180 degree arc by anywhere between 35 to 85 percent. As of a month ago, simply pulling out a melee weapon and holding RMB did that. Acting like there's any analogy between a misaimed melee attack and a misaimed launcher shot is absurd. The misaimed melee attack means you take a few more steps and attack again, which you almost certainly can do so because your melee weapon gives you a sizable amount of damage reduction. The misaimed launcher attack instantly downs you. There is an absolutely ridiculous disparity between these two consequences.

And your new counterargument is that it's "ridiculously easy to avoid self-damage" which contradicts your initial argument which was that if launchers didn't have self-damage, they would be completely imbalanced, and you absolutely need a weapon that you need to spam multiple hits on heavies with to instantly kill you if you're one millimeter within the blast radius because this balances their accuracy.

Here's the thing. Yes, you can avoid self-damage. Shockingly enough, I did it a lot, because I used the Ogris and Penta for a long time. That doesn't change that self-damage is ridiculously aggravating because its consequences are far out of line to the actual damage the weapons deal and if I screw up one out of a thousand shots, that still means that every few missions I screw up a shot and go down. It's unnecessarily and incredibly annoying especially since basically none of the launchers (again, besides the Lenz) are actually competitive in high-end content. They're weapons you take to screw around with, not serious meta weapons. This is because they're already balanced in accordance with their area of effect abilities. Launchers don't have extremely high damage stats, are often unwieldy to use (the Ogris is charge trigger and can 'jam' if you're panic-firing, the Penta requires you to detonate its grenades manually, there's a limit to how many can be active, and they bounce around a lot, the Lenz is also charge trigger) and all of them fire slow moving projectiles, many of them in an arc. "Shooting at your feet" isn't something that needs to be balanced for either because any player who is shooting at their feet can instantly use melee to get the same effect.

There is no point to self-damage except annoyance. My problem isn't that I can't stop myself from falling over when using a launcher -and even if I did have that issue, it's immensely dishonest for you to automatically declare that anyone annoyed with self damage must "git gud" or they have no room to talk. My problem is that self-damage is ridiculously anti-fun because its consequence is far out of proportion to any benefit launchers provide compared to melee, powers, or other guns, and every time it happens, even if it's rare, it is frustrating, aggravating, and reminds me why I hung up my Ogris. It's not nearly fun enough to make up for the bad stats, and self-damage makes it even less fun.

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Yeah I've gotta say I'd kind of like self damage to go the way of the dodo. Putting aside the fact that Dragonbutt exploding himself to jack his numbers up to the ceiling is dumb as hell, exploitative, and should have been dealt with ages ago, it just ain't fun to do to yourself.

Y'wanna know pain? Do like I did and put your gravimag on a #*!%ing Grattler. And try to use that rapid-fire bastard on the ground, I guarantee you will tear yourself a new transference hole sooner or later. Shift slightly on some hilly terrain (Like in the Vallis)? Some melee mook gets up in your face while you were focusing on something else? Surprise, you're dead.

Using it isn't fun because If I don't pay super close attention, I gib myself. And sometimes I do even when I AM, because something dumb happened.

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On 2019-03-14 at 4:40 PM, Captain_Of_Red said:

Why does self damage still virtually one shot every frame from full health? So many weapons still do more damage to you than they do to enemies. Pentas, Ogris, Talons, almost any explosive weapon has crippling self damage that prevents them from being useful in close range while not providing damage to compensate. The Risk/Reward is terrible.

This is because they stupidly made self-damage scale up with mods, rather than it being it's default value.  Were this not the case, self-damage weapons would be considerably more viable.  Unfortunately this is a game where most frames are a glass canon firing for millions of damage while only able to soak a few thousand at best.  This means any damage that the players can do to themselves are instantly lethal, Radiation, Explosives, etc. because they scale based off mods.

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