Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Flex238

Exploiter Orb: Boss Fight Mechanics Done Right?

Recommended Posts

It's been 1300+ hours, 350+ log ins, 25 mastery ranks, and yet I'm always missing something... mmorpg style dungeons and boss mechanics. I often find myself taking small breaks from Warframe to play other games like; Elder Scroll Online, which has tons of great dungeons to find and explore and Dauntless, which has fantastic boss fights. Itches scratched, urges fulfilled, boredom cured, I would always return to Warframe.

Yesterday, I found a cave deep inside a mountain, inside was an old and dilapidated outpost holding secrets and history, defended by a monster. This is the core of the dungeon experience; exploration, discovery, and overcoming obstacles. Buried Debts: Exploiter Orb, is short, but hits on all these classic dungeon tropes. I can't help myself in wanting more time with this encounter and this operation leaves me hopeful for what may come in terms of future operations and evolving boss fight mechanics.

The boss fight itself was fun, engaging and dare I say it... epic. This boss encounter was easily the best so far, better then the Profit-taker fight and Eidolon hunts in my opinion and light years ahead of assassination targets like Tyl Regor. There was a sense of urgency, instead of the question, "when is this going to be over with?". Even the little cut-scenes of the frame ripping out parts added to the feel of the fight, they didn't add anything to the mechanics of the fight, but they looked cool and made you feel epic. We had to solve problems on the fly and execute solutions, there was a clear progression to the fight through it's three phases and it arrived at a satisfying climax. 

I completed my first run in a group of two. The difficulty felt perfect for two players, but is probably too easy for a full group. In the end, it all comes down to how it felt and this mini-dungeon felt great. This boss fight makes up for the lack luster event leading up to it... Scan hashes? Complete 100 mobile defenses?? The real challenge in the event leading up to the boss was answering the question, "do I really wanna do this?".

 I hope to see this style of mini-dungeon encounter/boss fight become the bar to meet and exceed for future content. DE, give me a 30-60min long curated dungeon experience, please!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was going onto the forums to post just this(I haven't been active on the forum for years), I hope DE does more of this kind of fight. It makes me feel powerful without needing to hit insane damage numbers which most players already hit. Its doable solo or in a team and require teamwork or strategy solo. While not every boss should follow the same pattern IMO this boss fight lays the ground work for what DE is capable of with 2019+ Warframe, and I hope they keep going the same direction with future content. 

This fight made me feel like a space ninja again rather than a meat grinder. And I first did it solo, and I found it can be easier in a group but the mechanics still kept me busy in the group and it encourages communication while not forcing it for less social players.

The way the event was executed early on could have been much better, multiple fractures with increased challenge, I was okay with the scanning but we could have used a cutscene and maybe a tutorial mission to the first pad IMO but the payoff fight was worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Flex238 said:

I hope to see this style of mini-dungeon encounter/boss fight become the bar to meet and exceed for future content. DE, give me a 30-60min long curated dungeon experience, please!

A 60 minute long curated dungeon experience that you need to repeat (at least) ten times so that the RNG finally coughs up all the parts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

A 60 minute long curated dungeon experience that you need to repeat (at least) ten times so that the RNG finally coughs up all the parts?

Yes, that's the thing about a proper dungeon experience, when done right you want to keep going back in. Plus longer dungeons always have multiple bosses each dropping loot. I'd gladly run something with a longer completion time 10+ times over if its a fun experience. Doing 40+ glorified escort *cough* I mean defection missions for a Harrow bp, now that is ridiculous. lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first phase of the fight needs work.  A cannon that shreds Warframes, needing to land seemingly multiple canisters to melt off the ice and there's a wind up to toss them besides against an enemy that moves A LOT, all while dealing with all those raknoids on top of that.  It gets even dumber when you consider they decided to dot the floor with mushrooms which I know I constantly get caught on (there's really a crap ton of debris all over the place to get snagged on.)

Phase two isn't nearly as demanding nor punishing in comparison (and a lot cooler) and has built in "will win" mechanics.  It's like two different people balanced each portion of the fight.  I don't know how people survive phase one solo without going in with a super tanky frame that can take hits.  I'm still surprised I managed to do it with Excalibur.

My verdict, phase 2 was awesome, but phase 1 is overtuned and throwing canisters needs to be snappier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only real problem that I have with this fight is that the canisters move through the air too slowly, they're consistent so you can learn how to target them properly, but other than that I really like this encounter. Perhaps if the gun in phase one was a laser beam sorta thing it would be easier for players to avoid and see when they're getting hit. Other than that I have a good bit of fun with this boss fight, and it does feel satisfying to hit the orb with the canisters, I do think there should be a decal effect on the orb mother where I hit, I think that would help with the aiming the canisters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of all of the boss fights I’ve seen in Warframe this is probably the most fun I have ever had in Warframe. 

You can use any Warframe in this fight, I even bring limbo for the fight and can still do it without any huge issues and God of War style of ripping the boss parts out? DE you amaze me and maybe everyone.

Although, there is 1 small issue I have with fight and that is Throwing canisters into the vents in phase 1, for some reason the hit detection derps out and it’s not melting the ice and that is even worse if you are doing the fight with a laggy host.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me this was the best boss fight I have ever seen in Warframe. The first thing i noticed right off the bat was that the canister throwing was much easier if you utilized the higher ground the arena provides and use the arc that holding down alt fire provides to aim instead of using your cross hairs to aim. Both of these aspects made total sense to me. Another aspect that I really liked is that this boss fight seems to have taken operator abilities into account. The fight was actually a lot easier with intelligent use of operator mode while at the same time it was clearly still possible to complete without using operator mode. I will admit that I spent the vast majority of the fight in operator mode only switching out to my warframe to deal with the Coolant Raknoids. When it comes to phase one vs phase two I honestly have to disagree with the people who said that phase two was easier not the case IMHO. The first phase had it really easy so long as you realized that you had to pay attention to the arc shown and not just tap the alt fire button. As for the gun aspect maybe it was just my use of operator mode but for me the "say out of LOS of the turrets bit just makes sense and has been seen in warframe boss fights before. People are just too used to being able to just ignore that aspect of the fights this mechanic is already on.

 

 

TL;DR This boss fight had me happy as a clam and I sincerely hope to see more content like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am really on the fence about this boss fight. It does do a lot of things right:

  • Avoids a hard DPS race, which will always devolve into a Chroma based hyper strict meta, with gear min/maxed to the nth degree.
  • Is not completely over saturated with visual effects. *cough* Gantulyst *cough*
  • Does not require Operator mechanics at all, of which I am not a fan.
  • Very easy to solo. Praise our lord and savior, Broberon the Stalwart.

The problems start to show after a few runs, where the fight starts to feel... hollow. Once you realize just how meticulously scripted the whole fight is, the whole experience starts to feel on the rails; the fight just moves along at its own pace, and the player's influence on it is actually pretty limited (with the exception of a few tactics to completely bypass phase 1, which I'm pretty sure will be patched out as exploits). The lack of depth in the fight make me feel less "epic" and more like just jumping through hoops in a virtually identical manner as every other player. There is so much scripting and gating mechanics, that there is very little room for skillful or strategic plays to really shine through.

TLDR: The Exploiter fight is good, but I fear that it could start a trend of oversimplifying Warframe, which could alienate many players.

PS: I am a hard no on 60 minute missions, for largely technical reasons. The games you mentioned as examples both use dedicated servers, Warframe does not and uses the much less stable P2P. Getting to minute 55 in a 60 minute mission and losing all progress when the host's potato craps out, forcing a bugged host migration, would be a regular and intensely frustrating situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Knowmad762 said:

The problems start to show after a few runs, where the fight starts to feel... hollow. Once you realize just how meticulously scripted the whole fight is, the whole experience starts to feel on the rails; the fight just moves along at its own pace, and the player's influence on it is actually pretty limited (with the exception of a few tactics to completely bypass phase 1, which I'm pretty sure will be patched out as exploits). The lack of depth in the fight make me feel less "epic" and more like just jumping through hoops in a virtually identical manner as every other player. There is so much scripting and gating mechanics, that there is very little room for skillful or strategic plays to really shine through.

I agree it feels a little bit like a theme park ride. Damage really doesn't matter in this fight. Its all about following the steps and paying attention to boss queues. I believe this is a step in the right direction and hopefully with our feedback the next fight can be even better.

10 hours ago, Knowmad762 said:

PS: I am a hard no on 60 minute missions, for largely technical reasons. The games you mentioned as examples both use dedicated servers, Warframe does not and uses the much less stable P2P. Getting to minute 55 in a 60 minute mission and losing all progress when the host's potato craps out, forcing a bugged host migration, would be a regular and intensely frustrating situation.

I see how there could be some worry over the P2P network and long mission times, but people regularly run Kuva Survival or Arbitrations for hours on end already. As players we host huge maps with no issue, ie. Plains and Vallis, a dungeon wouldn't need to be nearly so large. I think fear of what could happen would only hold the devs back from making great content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference is, in Kuva survival, you can choose anywhere from 5 minutes to 500 minutes depending on your connection, host, and how much you want to risk all your junk.

You're talking about a hard 60minute minimum time investment to do a single thing. If you want a game that has massive timesinks, that's fine. There's lots of those. Warframe does not need to be one. I'd rather not have more trashy half-broken boss fights like Exploiter Orb, or the Eidolon fights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

You're talking about a hard 60minute minimum time investment to do a single thing.

 

On 2019-03-15 at 11:19 AM, Flex238 said:

DE, give me a 30-60min long curated dungeon experience, please!

Never said it had to be at least 60mins long. 

6 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

If you want a game that has massive timesinks, that's fine. There's lots of those. Warframe does not need to be one.

Warframe is the biggest time sink... farming for Ivara parts, Harrow defection and spy missions, collecting Alad V coordinates (before the  change) only to get one chance at the Mesa blueprint you needed... these and many more are incredible time sinks, they took hours, days and in some cases weeks. Warframe is grindy because its free, and I like the grind, but what Im asking for is a curated dungeon experience. I'm asking DE to take me for a ride. Exploiter fight was a ride and loved every minute of it and I can't help but want more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Warframe has been knowed for it's bullet-sponges for years and few boses where reworked into something that isn't either too short, too annoying or too boring (like Kela who has an amazing design but Starfox Adventures mini-challenge, for those who might know, and forced grind to get acces to it, just like Ambulas "Reborn"). 

I fought the Exploiter once, and to me it wasn't a Warframe boss. It was a mix between a dungeon boss "dogde, heal, wtv or get hit hard by something that is supposed to hit hard", a Metroid/Starfox Adventure "expose the weak spot / throw stuff at it because shooting is pointless in an immersive way", Metal Gear Rising mid-fight cinematics (*wink* *wink* to my username :P) and then Warframe fast-paced combat. 

I never had so much fun fighting a Warframe boss. Took me an hour solo with Gara and random stuff as I didn't even know I was going to fight the Orb Mother (oopsi! ^^'), but damn it was satisfying and refreshing. 

I seriously hope they take a look at Eidolons and the previous Orb Mother to make them as good and engaging, while also soloable without intense grind nor requiring Meta stuff (like I did).

I think DE is on the right track with this boss. Sure, tweaks and stuff are always welcome, but the core of the fight is near perfect, imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-03-15 at 8:39 PM, Lost_Cartographer said:

I don't know how people survive phase one solo without going in with a super tanky frame that can take hits.

I can answer that! I went in as Trinity not knowing what was behind the gate, just figuring I'd check it out, then got stuck with the Exploiter Orb fight. It was fun because I felt weak. I actually had to use my terrain to my advantage, ducking behind cover and figuring out how to get close enough. Eventually I hit on the idea to hide my frame in the dispenser room and grab the canister with my operator, dashing in close, yelling 'for the empire!' or some other such nonsense, and then lobbing a molotov cocktail onto the orb before dying and grabbing another canister. Luckily I had a decent amp and it only took like twelve shots to kill a vent. The whole fight took me around two hours, and was intenselv frustrating at times, but I found most of the frustration in the second phase, when I couldn't revive and would get repeatedly cut down trying to reach a canister. Still, the feeling of beating an exploiter orb by myself was amazing, and not knowing what I was getting into going in was even better.

Overall, a great boss fight. It can be done somewhat quickly in a group, or be a fun challenge if you're alone or with low rank friends. It forces you to think on your feet and figure out how to beat each phase the first time you fight it, and the rewards dropped are great for a thirty minute run. With it and the Wolf, it seems we're finally getting a boss or two that aren't dead within the first ten seconds of seeing them (though the wolf is a bit less engaging), that don't have to make use of total invincibility to do so. I hope DE keeps up the good work creating more epic fights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Flex238 said:

 

Never said it had to be at least 60mins long. 

Warframe is the biggest time sink... farming for Ivara parts, Harrow defection and spy missions, collecting Alad V coordinates (before the  change) only to get one chance at the Mesa blueprint you needed... these and many more are incredible time sinks, they took hours, days and in some cases weeks. Warframe is grindy because its free, and I like the grind, but what Im asking for is a curated dungeon experience. I'm asking DE to take me for a ride. Exploiter fight was a ride and loved every minute of it and I can't help but want more.

It's implied the dungeon's minimum investment time should be between 30 and 60 minutes.

Yeah, no, #*!% that.

 

Warframe is a big timesink, sure, but never all at once, and rarely to the tune of someone else's clock. Or at least, it was, until recently, which coincidently is why it's not that fun anymore and why so many people are complaining about it. But hey, I can say for sure, if it keeps going down this route, I won't care because I won't be wasting my time or money on it.

Warframe will not be spared the whip, just as those that came before it were not spared.(tm)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...