Regarding Equinox, her prime, and tweaks

[tnccs215]

With Equinox Prime right around the corner, it is possibly the best moment to discuss and propose changes that she might have always warranted, and given the current direction the mechanics of this game are shaping into, may warrant even more. I've been (very) critical of some specificities of her ability design for almost as long as I've enjoyed this frame and her concept, and given how much of a landmark getting primed can be considered in the "lifetime" of a frame, I've dusted myself back onto these forums in order to present some personal views of this frame, the game, as well as what ought to be done with her.

In the shortest amount of words possible, she lacks fluidity. 

Melee 2.9, the changes to Nezha, the talks about making running the default movement speed, between other things, imply and display how this game is investing more and more into what was one of its incipient strength: fluid, fast paced combat. Controls themselves, waiting times, etc, are rarely if ever used as a difficulty technique. The game is fast, and most (clearly including the devs) enjoy it as such. Equinox stands, therefore, as increasingly aged and unpleasant to use (barring possibly the recourse to augments, which should never be a resource to make a frame engaging) due to mechanics that might kinda have made sense back then, but most definitely no longer do. Namely: the fact her abilities deactivate after changing forms, instead of changing with her. 

Her concept, centered around duality, and the complementarity of opposites, practically demands quick form changing in order to best adapt to the environment and synergize herself with herself. However, because Pacify & Provoke (a fire and forget aura, clearly meant to be set and that's it - no issue with that, many other frame's abilities work so) deactivate with form changing, and Mend & Maim requires an augment in order not to do so, means that form changing is, not only less effective, clunky and unpleasant to use. More, it undermines the practical execution of her concept: if in movies you oughta show, not tell, in gaming you oughta do, not show - and Equinox does not allow complement between her both halfs. In the end, she feels disconnected and as if her full potential - not only in terms of effectiveness, but in terms of fun - is not reached.

 

Added to that, her kit has a fair amount of neglegible abilities - which never feel enjoyable. Pacify is not a reliable way to reduce incoming damage - its DR decay over distance prevents that, as well as base values - and compared to most abilities oriented in that way, it is not a valid option. Mend's shield gain looses traction quickly, between other things. 

As such, I'd very much like to ask the devs to give her a look, update her to the current and future reality of the game, and to please, make her more engaging to use by making the transition between forms be has light, fluid, and uncumbersome as possible - simply making Mend&Maim's augment a default, as well as adding a similar mechanic to Pacify and Provoke, would be enough. 

And thank you very much to anyone who takes the time to read this. 

 

 

[DeMonkey]

I was wondering if the upcoming EQ Prime would get you back onto the forums. 

My big problem with Equinox has always been that I almost felt punished for changing form. I'd build a certain way, and changing form would mean I'm not longer using the ability I built around, or the damage/healing/DR I'd built up would be lost to the ether.

[tnccs215]

It was a cosmical inevitability it would happen, ain't it? I'll just wait and see how it goes. 

And yeah, that was always a big issue. Many if not most people do that -  and I frankly believe the "stick to an half" approach being the most viable build kinda undermines the concept. Might has well just separate her into two different frames, isn't it? 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

my biggest problem with Equinox remains mend and the wasted charge...

it feels like a waste to keep mend active, build up overshields, and when someone finally needs an actual heal deactivate and lose a charge value of millions for only a few thousand at most... her night form is quite interesting in how it can build overshields while lowering enemy damage but her wasted heal on mend is almost insulting...

its like going to a excessively expensive restaurant, buying a 10 course meal, taking a sip of water then paying the bill and leaving.

[EquinoxPrime]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

And yeah, that was always a big issue. Many if not most people do that -  and I frankly believe the "stick to an half" approach being the most viable build kinda undermines the concept. Might has well just separate her into two different frames, isn't it? 

Agree with all of what you've said, fluidity is her biggest issue.

I've learned to adapt through the use of Energy Transfer, which to me is mandatory in most of my builds. It helps, but it's a huge bandaid mod that shouldn't be necessary. Her form should innately change the function of her abilities without the deactivation of her 3/4. Peaceful Provocation suffers heavily from form-switching, building up that slow/buff again is painful. Mend & Maim also suffers a bit without Energy Transfer, as you're not as easily able to adapt to a situation where you might need a quick heal over slashbombing the room.

Use of Metamorphosis should be encouraged, not discouraged as it currently stands because of aforementioned reasons.

We are like-minded in our opinions concerning Equinox and her kit and it's refreshing to know that someone else "gets it", so to speak.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 😊

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, EquinoxPrime said:

Agree with all of what you've said, fluidity is her biggest issue.

I've learned to adapt through the use of Energy Transfer, which to me is mandatory in most of my builds. It helps, but it's a huge bandaid mod that shouldn't be necessary. Her form should innately change the function of her abilities without the deactivation of her 3/4. Peaceful Provocation suffers heavily from form-switching, building up that slow/buff again is painful. Mend & Maim also suffers a bit without Energy Transfer, as you're not as easily able to adapt to a situation where you might need a quick heal over slashbombing the room.

Use of Metamorphosis should be encouraged, not discouraged as it currently stands because of aforementioned reasons.

We are like-minded in our opinions concerning Equinox and her kit and it's refreshing to know that someone else "gets it", so to speak.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 😊

Well I used to sporadically post big, big walls of text about her in the forums - some of them probably more aggressive than what an issue in a game might deserve tbh - pretty much ever since she got introduced. The criticism evolved more or less in different directions - but most of it stayed the same. I frankly wished she got a Neha-like pass: something conservative that works on the concept and the potential of the mechanics and gives something fluid, effective in its own right, and interesting with little to no unpolished corners (read: useless or frustrating abilities) left. 

Equinox has a magnificent concept and quite interesting mechanics that can be developed into something interesting - and simply making form-changing a downside-less action would be a massive step into that direction. But hey, the devs were only beginning to really explore with frame (mechanics) design when she was made, and that was also a time when discussions regarding difficulty and cheese were much more intense, and centered around frame powers (namely CC) and not the environment. Plus, she was and is useful - in the aspect that she can be an amazing asset in the right situation, namely Sanctuary - so the lacking of her kit, both in terms of effectiveness and player engagement are kinda drowned in the maim bomb.

But hey. We'll see how it goes.

If you want to bother, check my posts about her. They are kinda old though, and I was not exactly in my best mental place at the time - so if I sound obsessive or overly bothered, don't be amazed. 

[EquinoxPrime]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

so if I sound obsessive or overly bothered, don't be amazed. 

Honestly? It's nice to find someone else that's passionate about Equinox, so we're probably in the same boat.

A quick pass for Equinox would be awesome, if anything just to help her out in terms of QoL. I've said before she's in a good spot in terms of what she can accomplish compared to other Warframes, she is the Jack of all Trades, but the problem is accomplishing it. She has so, so much potential and a lot of players don't realize that because of her kit constraints and it makes me so very sad. All I see are Day Equinox anymore, but can you blame them with how she currently plays? Who is going to sacrifice damage over support with the way that Pacify & Provoke and Mend & Maim currently work? I mean I do, I try to get the best out of all of her abilities and I've managed to make it work pretty well so far, but it took me a long time to get to this point and to adjust to her clunky kit. She's easy to play (if you only care about damage) but hard to master, fluidity is a huge reason why.

From the new Ability Screen UI update, just thought I'd share. Laughable if you ask me, unless you're running Duality. 🤦‍♀️

 

DE if you're listening, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our other abilities for the sake of one when we have a pool of seven to choose from. Please help best girl whenever the other frames get their reworks. I'm not gonna put her on a higher pedestal than other frames that need help, but a little love and QoL for us Equinox mains would be super appreciated.

[Enxchiol]

Total agreement with the fluidity issue talked about. A change I would like to see in regard to that is to up the cast speed of Metamorphosis, because it just takes too long to switch to be able to work as a quick adaptation tool. There's also the charges of 3 and 4 that basically anyone talking about Equinox wants to carry over. Another thing I don't like is that Pacify's DR and Metamorphosis buffs decay over range and time respectively, making them quite undesirable(I'd go as far as to say Pacify without Peaceful Provocation is close to useless due to the diminishing and the hefty energy drain). Remove the diminishing on range with Pacify and about the Metamorphosis buffs, maybe make them permanent to their respective forms, but with a drawback of some sorts if that's neccessary. Particularly Rage I think should recieve tweaks, as that ability is not really desirable in (m)any situations. 

An interesting idea I've had regarding Mend's charge waste and in the case we get innate charge carryover, is to have an augment for both Mend/Maim that instead of releasing the charge in an instant, instead creates an area for a duration where the charge is released as a damage/heal per second to entities within range.

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Enxchiol

[NocturnalTrance]

Il y a 14 heures, EquinoxPrime a dit :

Agree with all of what you've said, fluidity is her biggest issue.

I've learned to adapt through the use of Energy Transfer, which to me is mandatory in most of my builds. It helps, but it's a huge bandaid mod that shouldn't be necessary. Her form should innately change the function of her abilities without the deactivation of her 3/4. Peaceful Provocation suffers heavily from form-switching, building up that slow/buff again is painful. Mend & Maim also suffers a bit without Energy Transfer, as you're not as easily able to adapt to a situation where you might need a quick heal over slashbombing the room.

Use of Metamorphosis should be encouraged, not discouraged as it currently stands because of aforementioned reasons.

We are like-minded in our opinions concerning Equinox and her kit and it's refreshing to know that someone else "gets it", so to speak.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 😊

I feel like mend and maim get replenished really fast. Pacify and provoke replenish mush slower however, if switching forms diminished the charge but not completely renewed it I would be ok with that.

[dwqrf]

The issue you have to consider about keeping the effect from one 3 or 4 by switching form, is that it actually make the casting time and the casting cost disapear in the process.

 

For me, Equinox need a nerf on her 4, aka using power strenght to calulcate the % of max life stolen. that'd be fair.

But if that happen, she need a major buff on her form-swicthing, aka keeping the metamorphosis buff of the full value during the whole duration and keeping half of the buff as long as you stay in this form.

That's my 2cents.

Edited March 17, 2019 by dwqrf

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

The issue you have to consider about keeping the effect from one 3 or 4 by switching form, is that it actually make the casting time and the casting cost disapear in the process.

Casting cost can be compensated by adding it to metamorphosis - though both are so neglegible I don't think it's a relevant change. 

Casting time, on the other hand, does not dissappear in the process - it is a fundamental part of the process.

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by tnccs215

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

What if universally the effects of abilitys from the previous forum lingered, weakening over time?

Specifically with her 1 and 3.

For example the current metamorphosis bonus for each form now is always active while in its specific forum. Switching forms applys a duration during which the previous forms bonus in the new form.. in this way switching would briefly alloe the bonus of both forms as the bonus from the form you were previously slowly fade away.

Likewise the third ability could remain active between forms, with switching causing the effects of both forms to be active while the previous forms effects linger. IE switching to night form would leave the PWR STR bonus for a short time during which it is active but slowly weakening while the new damage reduction aura functions normally.

 

 

Just some wishes i guess. I want there to be benefit to using both forms too.

[Gurpgork]

11 hours ago, dwqrf said:

For me, Equinox need a nerf on her 4, aka using power strenght to calulcate the % of max life stolen. that'd be fair.

But if that happen, she need a major buff on her form-swicthing, aka keeping the metamorphosis buff of the full value during the whole duration and keeping half of the buff as long as you stay in this form.

I'd say that rebalancing the way form swapping works is an absolute prerequisite for any discussion of nerfing Maim--or really changing the balance of any of her abilities. Especially in a game where Saryn of all things exists. 

It's better to add the necessary fluidity for form swapping and make further alterations from there. Otherwise you might end up with a melee 2.9 situation where some existing problems become extremely prominent and break things until the rest of the changes roll in. 

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

Every time I use my Equinox I find myself wishing that her 1 was something more like Limbos dash into rift walk completely replaced rift walk. I absolutely loved that about his rework. going back to Noxy, why can't she have the innate ability to just switch forms on demand without draining energy without having to cancel any of her active abilities. Sure, It would remove the usefulness of Energy Transfer, but so what? The changes could allow more room for customization too.

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said:

Every time I use my Equinox I find myself wishing that her 1 was something more like Limbos dash into rift walk completely replaced rift walk. I absolutely loved that about his rework. going back to Noxy, why can't she have the innate ability to just switch forms on demand without draining energy without having to cancel any of her active abilities. Sure, It would remove the usefulness of Energy Transfer, but so what? The changes could allow more room for customization too.

I've heard that proposal before, and while it would make aesthetical sense, in practical terms I don't think it is so viable or desirable.

Rift Walking is by nature escapatory (you are literally going into another dimension), and with the exception of Banish, none of the powers change their behavior according to whether you are in the rift or not (and I remember it was/is contentious the fact that Banish functionality depends on what plane you are). Given that the dodge is the escapatory action by default, superimposing both mechanics is perfectly viable. Form changing, on the other hand, is not inherently so - and by point and design changes the behavior of all of Equinox's abilities. If I wish to use rage on an enemy but quickly need to dodge an heavy 's slam, I'd be forced to see myself in Night form - and unable not only to use rage without another dodge, but also loosing Provokes and Maim's functions that I might have wished to keep (even for the split second it takes to dodge again). It would be a superimposition of two completely different functions that are usable in too different situations - in short, there is no point in doing so.

In addition, many people decried Equinox demanded a "Swith tax" for balance and fairness reasons to other frames. I agree - however while many use that argument to justify maintaining her clunky and unfluid as she is, I've always seen and defended that the lack of a 4-ability kit is exactly that. Freeing up an ability slot is not only unnecessary, it is undesirable.

However, it is perfectly viable to, instead add metamorphosis functionality to the dodge, do the inverse - adding a dodge component to Metamorphosis. That would make it look cooler. 

[EquinoxPrime]

On 2019-03-17 at 12:09 PM, NocturnalTrance said:

I feel like mend and maim get replenished really fast. Pacify and provoke replenish mush slower however, if switching forms diminished the charge but not completely renewed it I would be ok with that.

Considering Mend is mostly an “Oh $#!@“ button, because it’s a burst heal, I would rather not have to build it back up (completely, from zero).

Without the use of Energy Transfer, it’s a little unreliable unless you’re a rare Equinox who’s always in Night. She should be able to adapt to the situation naturally, but not without some sort of adjustment to energy cost or something. I don’t want to be OP, I just want to be more fluid.

Diminishing the charge but not completely removing it is an interesting idea. Hmm.

Edited March 18, 2019 by EquinoxPrime
Clarity

[tnccs215]

On 2019-03-18 at 11:15 PM, EquinoxPrime said:

Considering Mend is mostly an “Oh $#!@“ button, because it’s a burst heal, I would rather not have to build it back up (completely, from zero).

Without the use of Energy Transfer, it’s a little unreliable unless you’re a rare Equinox who’s always in Night. She should be able to adapt to the situation naturally, but not without some sort of adjustment to energy cost or something. I don’t want to be OP, I just want to be more fluid.

Diminishing the charge but not completely removing it is an interesting idea. Hmm.

I agree Mend & Maim are replenishable quite fast, only in Maim's case do I think said replenishment happens fast enough and the ability offers enough immediate benefits that make it worth the time it takes to replenish back - that area stun has saved me more time than Mend ever did.

I don't think Mend is a good enough ability for anything, if you want my opinion. Though the current iteration that allows shield replenishment by killing enemies gives it some constant benefit to be kept active, shield regeneration values are abysmally small and only gained on enemy death. Plus the fact you have to store hp, the waste of said extra hp stored, coupled with its channeling cost - that prevents proper energy restoration to feed the sink that is Pacify (let's ignore the fact it's a mostly disregardable ability without the augment) - makes it a rather bad "oh sh!t" heal. If Energy Transfer is a staple augment, it's not only because it allows free(er) flow between Day and Night form, but also because it lets us rely on Maim's constant usefulness and reduce Mend to nothing but a pontual, side heal - which, unless you have a nit-tight squad full of aoe weaponry around you and a kink for purple shields that aren't recoverable fast enough if the situation gets really bad, is its only use.

Though frankly, the biggest issue to me is the recasting itself and everything it involves - downtime and momentarily being locked in the same spot. Even having to build the store back up every time you change form would be more bearable than if abilities didn't have to be recastable every time you switch form.

However regarding Peaceful Provocation build-ups - I've always being terribly critical of it, specially Pacify's. It locks her even more into one form, further worsening her lack of fluidity - while also being a somewhat band-aid fix for Pacify, and being a pain (literally, suicidal) to build for exactly this ability. The only way to make it bearable is to make the ability actually worthwhile by default, so that I don't have to use the augment if I want pacify to be minimally useful. 

[0_The_F00l]

EQUINOX MAINS UNITED! 

We are EMU! 

On topic:

Agree on the lack of fluidity present, in the current state modding (or specializing if you will) for one specific thing either night or day (not both) is the way to go, 

I managed a kinda middle way I call twilight in which she functions well in either form but I will not be able to out nuke a full day maim or out tank or support like a full night pacify Equinox. 

But it works for me (like a car works on a potholed road that needs to be re ignited every few seconds ), as in I need to cast metamorphosis, then cast her 3 and 4 again, then charge it (energy transfer augment is a bandaid, but the very fact that it needs a mod slot screws my twilight build so I don't use it), 

I also tend to get killed when running casting these abilities cause I could probably capture a target by the time she finishes her animation (glide cast is my friend) . 

So in addition to the above suggestions, a brief period of invulnerability (with some cool down for the invulnerability like rolling guard) would be welcome as well, but if I don't need to recast my abilities then it's not needed at all. 

The metamorphosis buff is nice but isn't really that useful, I would rather the buff became a permanent passive instead of a timed buff (maybe armor instead of shields for night cause shields suck) . 

In short:

Make metamorphosis buff permanent as long as you are in that form. 

Keep the abilities active between forms (i am willing to add the energy cost of the abilities to metamorphosis, and having them reset to starting point if it is not possible to retain charge for some reason) 

Invulnerability (or absorb damage like Nezhas halo to add proper buffs) during the transition state so the ability itself has use. 

 

[SixDimensions]

Glad to see there are others who agree to that Equinox needs a bit of love.  I had my own thread about this a while back and I completely agree.  To sum up the main points so far that I agree with:

1. faster transition between forms; day/night benefits should be permanent buff with a decaying buff from the previous form (e.g. day form has perm speed/damage boost with decay armor/shield buff)

2. charge should be kept between 3 and 4 when switching forms; increase the cost of metamorphosis to compensate. Switching now is overly punishing in the time it takes to switch and activate each ability and then build up the necessary charges (the augment for 4 is not sufficient).

3. rage and mend need some QOL. As is, Rage is very situational right now. Mend as a reactive ability is terrible.  I would suggest having the heal effect act similar to Oberon's Renewal when you deactivate (e.g. healing pulses that drain the charge over time rather than one shot; modded by duration for time between pulses and strength for how much of the charge is used per pulse).

 

I feel these changes would make the frame more fluid and more tactically applicable.

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, SixDimensions said:

Glad to see there are others who agree to that Equinox needs a bit of love.  I had my own thread about this a while back and I completely agree.  To sum up the main points so far that I agree with:

1. faster transition between forms; day/night benefits should be permanent buff with a decaying buff from the previous form (e.g. day form has perm speed/damage boost with decay armor/shield buff)

2. charge should be kept between 3 and 4 when switching forms; increase the cost of metamorphosis to compensate. Switching now is overly punishing in the time it takes to switch and activate each ability and then build up the necessary charges (the augment for 4 is not sufficient).

3. rage and mend need some QOL. As is, Rage is very situational right now. Mend as a reactive ability is terrible.  I would suggest having the heal effect act similar to Oberon's Renewal when you deactivate (e.g. healing pulses that drain the charge over time rather than one shot; modded by duration for time between pulses and strength for how much of the charge is used per pulse).

 

I feel these changes would make the frame more fluid and more tactically applicable.

Wholy agreed - but Let's also remember that pacify, without the augment, is pretty much useless. 

Another idea for Mend is for it to apply an iron-skin like effect. Possibly timed, if after tests, the ability proves too powerful - though given the current average power level of frames, I genuinely do not know if that would be a problem. 

[WarriorSoundwave]

I never realized how much I wanted changes for Equinox. It really does seem to be a 'stick to one side' kinda thing. I would love to see her with lots of fluidity and synergies with her forms. Maybe her passive can be changing forms and it can be more smooth when it comes to transitioning forms.

[SixDimensions]

19 hours ago, WarriorSoundwave said:

Maybe her passive can be changing forms and it can be more smooth when it comes to transitioning forms.

Her current passive would be good if it actually worked. You get 2 health or energy per orb. It needs a serious buff

[EquinoxPrime]

On 2019-03-20 at 5:53 PM, SixDimensions said:

Mend as a reactive ability is terrible.  I would suggest having the heal effect act similar to Oberon's Renewal when you deactivate

Having Mend behave like Renewal on deactivation would be neat, imo. Active for overshields, deactivate for an HoT.

I can approve. 😋

[tnccs215]

21 hours ago, moostar95 said:

I love my equinox. Her night side makes for being an awesome healer. But I always wanted her four to be a bit more useful in this form. Like being able to give off energy for as long as you have it running overtime near teammates. Kind of like the energy aura mod. 

That seems like something interesting that would compensate for the energy hog that Pacify can be - though it's one of those possible changes that require playtesting. 

The issue of wasted storage still applies, however. It is a mostly psychological effect - but then again, so is enjoyment in general. 

[SixDimensions]

23 hours ago, EquinoxPrime said:

Having Mend behave like Renewal on deactivation would be neat, imo. Active for overshields, deactivate for an HoT.

I can approve. 😋

This is exactly how I envisioned it working. Glad you think the idea has merit!