How am I supposed to play according to DE?

[VanFanel1980mx]

I wanted to make this thread for a while now but some stuff has been "piling up" which has given me a few more material.

Long ago before I took a long break people complained about certain nuke frames like Nova, and "mandatory" ones like Trinity when it came to the highest level content which was T3 Void back then, Nova got some nerfs and her MP became an expanding bubble, Trinity's Blessing took away the invincibility period and added a cap to 95% damage reduction if I remember correctly, you know, because having around 1k HP total and reducing 95% of a single 100k enemy shot really made sense, that is, damage reduction is worthless at higher levels, OK I guess.

But there were certain small things like environmental kills, like using Mag's pull to shove enemies into bottomless pits, then apparently they were removed and currently enemies who fall into a pit only respawn out of a player's sight, why?

Fast Forward to PoE and you get Archwings for free roaming, you had limited launcher units and suddenly the devs decided to add an instant takedown mechanic for enemies, why? too powerful? how? enemies still get pinpoint accuracy when "difficulty" goes up which means no amount of evasion and player skill would matter in the long run.

Here comes the Profit Taker which like Eidolons is completely immune to warframe abilities (a recurring theme for the so called end-game content), requiring a wide variety of elemental damage loadouts (fair) but then pumping up more numbers and their own brand of CC, not to mention once people decide to make it easier by using Shattering Impact the devs decide to make an exception and then PT is no longer affected by Shattering Impact, why?

Currently the irony comes with the Exploiter Orb, immune to abilities as usual, minions immune to CC, the only positive aspect of it was the puzzle mechanics on it but in the end it becomes a timed battle, something worth mentioning is the fact that going blind on it I assumed I thermia canisters were meant to build up heat instead of increasing heat rate, you can imagine my frustration when I kept throwing canisters only to see the EO instantly lower her heat gauge, what did I think at first? "damn DE, I am supposed to be faster than the raknids but even with none of those around you still arbitrarily prolong the battle!", then I read on the wiki and see how it is supposed to work, without knowing if there was a "meta" to the fight I experimented until I began using Zephyr for going solo and  the first thing I thought after succeeding was "should I keep quiet about Zephyr?" because once we seem to find a way to overcome the challenge with the mechanics provided in the game here comes DE and makes changes.

There may be a ton of things I didn't mention but there are other small ones like a lot of AoE abilities being way less powerful than I remember 2 years ago, Sound Quake, Reckoning, World on Fire, Hysteria (consuming more energy as time goes on), etc., so how are we supposed to play the game and avoid making a dev mad which would result in more crippling changes?

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

Just play how you want to play.For me I usually only use Excalibur and mr fodder the other frames.i am MR6 I m not into the grind as much like others are and I like playing the star chart rather then just doing it for the rewards. My goal is to basically fully mod my Excalibur to the fullest.Thats just my play sytle though.At the end of it all their is no right way its how you want to play.

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)XlOoftheGoof Xl said:

Just play how you want to play.For me I usually only use Excalibur and mr fodder the other frames.i am MR6 I m not into the grind as much like others are and I like playing the star chart rather then just doing it for the rewards. My goal is to basically fully mod my Excalibur to the fullest.Thats just my play sytle though.At the end of it all their is no right way its how you want to play.

I liked to pull enemies into bottomless pits, it used to work then, it no longer works.

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

Just now, VanFanel1980mx said:

I liked to pull enemies into bottomless pits, it used to work then, it no longer works.

The tough man that actually sounds fun.What warframe did you use to do that back then?

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)XlOoftheGoof Xl said:

The tough man that actually sounds fun.What warframe did you use to do that back then?

Mag on certain missions, specially defense on Ceres, but there are a ton of frames that can do the trick, Zephyr, Vauban, Valkyr, etc., I heard back when there were raids or some other very high level missions some teams had Mag to do the same and bypass the whole highly armored enemy problem, and then a developer got upset and did some changes because "they weren't playing the way it was meant to be" which only cemented the "Mag is trash tier" meme.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I have no idea..I am trying to wrap my head around this game and some of the decisions of late...On one hand we have Volt and Saryn just destroying onslaught maps in two swipes of the number 4...and then on the other hand...we have nerfs on everything else...like take the Tonkor  and self damage, why bother now? Saryn can kill the entire room. Why can't I have fun sliding into a group of enemies and blowing them all into the air'?..Well the one pocket of them I can get to before the Volt kills them all anyways? 

Why can't we have self damage Rhino..or Bad Math Chroma...they are niche frames but that made them fun...just add a new eidolon with new colors and let it handle the crazy numbers...

It's just how it goes I guess...best to not get attached to anything...it'll change to good and eventually then back to mediocre and then back to okay...and then replaced by something new..repeat...

[trst]

There is a difference between making the Devs mad by not playing "the way they want you to" and unintended interactions/mechanics.

 

For example; Greedy Pull Mag. Does anyone honestly think the Devs expected this one augment to allow teams to fully automate endless mission farming with a paper weight and a few macros pressing a single key every few seconds? This isn't playing against how the Devs intended you to, it's playing with something they didn't intend to be possible in the first place. Pulling orbs and loot to yourself and teammates? Sure. Pulling orbs and loot to a Mesa so she can have infinite energy and never need to leave Peacemaker? Likely not.

Or with your example of Mag pulling enemies into pits, do you think the Devs intended for players to be able to kill entire waves of enemies with a single ability press with the only concerning stat being range? There is huge potential for such a mechanic to be abused when enemy loot isn't an objective which was probably the abuse case occurring in Trials.

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I have no idea..I am trying to wrap my head around this game and some of the decisions of late...On one hand we have Volt and Saryn just destroying onslaught maps in two swipes of the number 4...and then on the other hand...we have nerfs on everything else...like take the Tonkor  and self damage, why bother now? Saryn can kill the entire room. Why can't I have fun sliding into a group of enemies and blowing them all into the air'?..Well the one pocket of them I can get to before the Volt kills them all anyways? 

Why can't we have self damage Rhino..or Bad Math Chroma...they are niche frames but that made them fun...just add a new eidolon with new colors and let it handle the crazy numbers...

It's just how it goes I guess...best to not get attached to anything...it'll change to good and eventually then back to mediocre and then back to okay...and then replaced by something new..repeat...

I can't believe I forgot about self-damage, so they don't want us to shove rockets or grenades on the enemy's face for some reason since this isn't a PvP game, I am not bothered with nuke frames but the rest can't even hold their ground in some cases, Banshee with or without quake augment is neither crowd control or mid level CC, the silence ability stuns for a while and allegedly gives the enemy less accuracy but once the higher leveled enemies come around accuracy "reduction" is meaningless, let's not even forget about things like Bombard's homing missiles, why are they homing missiles if they are using an ogris too?

Then they got rid of the self-damage "exploit" tactics like Trinity's Link and some others, you know what would have solved the issue without arbitrary changes? getting rid of self-damage.

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, trst said:

Or with your example of Mag pulling enemies into pits, do you think the Devs intended for players to be able to kill entire waves of enemies with a single ability press with the only concerning stat being range? There is huge potential for such a mechanic to be abused when enemy loot isn't an objective which was probably the abuse case occurring in Trials.

This is basically like the change on the Profit Taker and Shattering Impact, is far from unintended, using Mag to shove enemies into pits during trials was either forfeit loot or forfeit time, risk vs reward.

[Lost_Cartographer]

People complained about the game not having any challenge, yet wanting to be able to set enemies to level 100+ right out the gate without realizing WHY the game wasn't challenging.  It wasn't because the enemy's level wasn't high enough.

Our abilities on their own aren't so bad.  Even CC is fairly well balanced.

...Until mods enter the picture.  Suddenly, an ability with 12-20m range reaches out 3 times as far or even further somehow.  What was meant as a localized "bomb" turned into a map wide nuke.  This left DE with two crappy choices - nerf the hell out of the range of these abilities/what the mods provide OR set up enemies to be immune to powers and even grant nearby allies immunity.  They chose the latter - let people keep their uber long range area wide CC, but there are exceptions that throw a wrench into the "lock down map, kill at leisure" strategem people abuse well into level 300 and beyond.

There's an actual level range DE intends to balance everything around, I have no doubt.  I suspect it's 40-60, but I'm just guessing here.

[(PSN)bermejo-92]

I honestly just stopped playing altogether when fortuna came out I was annoyed at the fact we had to farm ducats for that weapon all the nerf that came out after that just made me drop it altogether.

 

That and the fact after spending months to get chroma and finally getting it to rank30 chroma prime came out annoyed the hell out of me too

[beol]

1. ?

2. Host migration

3. Buy plat

4. Grofit!

[Death875]

Ah the good old days of T_ missions, when the void had a purpose beyond argon crystals. 

Anyways, I somewhat agree with you, but the thing is, since the game is "constantly" changing, the way DE wants us to play and our own play styles will also change, don't forget warframe has had a major increase in players since the golden age of the void, with that a lot more different opinions and feedback towards the state of the game and it's mechanics. 

So while I personally agree with you that quite a few of the changes DE has made are questionable and maybe don't really make all that much sense, I find it best to just go "meh", voice your feedback, and adapt, don't get attached to any one method or mechanic of a frame or weapon. 

So I guess according to DE, idk, I'm not DE, nor can I understand some of their decisions, apologies I cannot give a better answer. 

 

Just don't forget, warframe is still in beta! Lol

Edit: Spelling & Grammer. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Death875

[Lutesque]

This game is mess... I don't bother asking why anymore.

[GamerLuc]

Lately I feel like they dont want us to feel strong in this game.

Why do we even have abilitys when every new enemy is immune to everything anyways?

I mean some enemys on Fortuna shoot through Frosts Globe, Limbos Rift and Zephyrs Turbulence. How can they do that? I mean Limbo is literally in another Dimension and they just shoot him like its nothing. They are also immune to all CC, have Nullifier-Bubbles and spamm Knockdowns like its their only purpose in life to annoy us.

I started this Game because I like feeling powerfull and killing hordes of enemys with cool abilitys but DE nerfed pretty much every Frame over the years and they still nerf everything that is strong or popular.

I fear that Equinox gets her 4 nerfed to no longer go through walls or has her range/damage reduced by 50% when Equinox Prime comes out because DE thinks she is too strong,,,

[(PSN)Your_King_Rasta]

5 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I wanted to make this thread for a while now but some stuff has been "piling up" which has given me a few more material.

Long ago before I took a long break people complained about certain nuke frames like Nova, and "mandatory" ones like Trinity when it came to the highest level content which was T3 Void back then, Nova got some nerfs and her MP became an expanding bubble, Trinity's Blessing took away the invincibility period and added a cap to 95% damage reduction if I remember correctly, you know, because having around 1k HP total and reducing 95% of a single 100k enemy shot really made sense, that is, damage reduction is worthless at higher levels, OK I guess.

But there were certain small things like environmental kills, like using Mag's pull to shove enemies into bottomless pits, then apparently they were removed and currently enemies who fall into a pit only respawn out of a player's sight, why?

Fast Forward to PoE and you get Archwings for free roaming, you had limited launcher units and suddenly the devs decided to add an instant takedown mechanic for enemies, why? too powerful? how? enemies still get pinpoint accuracy when "difficulty" goes up which means no amount of evasion and player skill would matter in the long run.

Here comes the Profit Taker which like Eidolons is completely immune to warframe abilities (a recurring theme for the so called end-game content), requiring a wide variety of elemental damage loadouts (fair) but then pumping up more numbers and their own brand of CC, not to mention once people decide to make it easier by using Shattering Impact the devs decide to make an exception and then PT is no longer affected by Shattering Impact, why?

Currently the irony comes with the Exploiter Orb, immune to abilities as usual, minions immune to CC, the only positive aspect of it was the puzzle mechanics on it but in the end it becomes a timed battle, something worth mentioning is the fact that going blind on it I assumed I thermia canisters were meant to build up heat instead of increasing heat rate, you can imagine my frustration when I kept throwing canisters only to see the EO instantly lower her heat gauge, what did I think at first? "damn DE, I am supposed to be faster than the raknids but even with none of those around you still arbitrarily prolong the battle!", then I read on the wiki and see how it is supposed to work, without knowing if there was a "meta" to the fight I experimented until I began using Zephyr for going solo and  the first thing I thought after succeeding was "should I keep quiet about Zephyr?" because once we seem to find a way to overcome the challenge with the mechanics provided in the game here comes DE and makes changes.

There may be a ton of things I didn't mention but there are other small ones like a lot of AoE abilities being way less powerful than I remember 2 years ago, Sound Quake, Reckoning, World on Fire, Hysteria (consuming more energy as time goes on), etc., so how are we supposed to play the game and avoid making a dev mad which would result in more crippling changes?

I spent alot of my time with my buddy (who is getting back into the game himself) he's mastery rank 13 almost 14. He got me into it mostly because Mesa prime had just came out and I loved her from the start. Now I'm a mastery rank 10 almost 11 and I've been farming most of the time with about 200hrs in I think. I have 8 prime frames ready to claim and 2 more almost ready to build.  my goal is to max everything and become a vet in the game along the way. Just do what you see fit and have fun.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, (XB1)XlOoftheGoof Xl said:

Just play how you want to play.For me I usually only use Excalibur and mr fodder the other frames.i am MR6 I m not into the grind as much like others are and I like playing the star chart rather then just doing it for the rewards. My goal is to basically fully mod my Excalibur to the fullest.Thats just my play sytle though.At the end of it all their is no right way its how you want to play.

Then you’re in for a very short gameplay experience. It took me like a day to optimize Excal.

[Shelusine]

You make it sounds like any of this content is "hard" to play the normal way. I mean, sometimes they nerf things that shouldn't be nerfed but those ? I don't see how that matters. T3 is gone, both WB can be solo'd, you can still go infinitely high in endless,... Some part of those changes like nerfing mag pull but without refreshing it is problematic, I honestly  don't see any use to that ability, but the cheese it was used for ? I don't see how it matters, really.

[VanFanel1980mx]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Your_King_Rasta said:

Just do what you see fit and have fun.

I can't, they don't like me using Archwing on free roaming so they made archwing nullifier projectiles, I liked to work around situations by performing environmental kills and they are no longer there (Trials are also absent so there is no "you just want to cheese trials" excuse), I want to take on certain bosses without having to use one of 3-4 frames, I HAVE to use Zenurik focus because half the things in this game either take energy away or delete your abilities, I HAVE to put on Vitality, Quick Thinking or both on frames that don't have any kind of tanking potential will die to a sneeze and lately just thinking about sharing my experience with the EO with Zephyr made me afraid of DE noticing her ability to dodge enemy attacks and nerfing turbulence or even all other alternatives, they hate pragmatism and they have yet to tell us how exactly does the game is meant to be played.

[VanFanel1980mx]

11 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

You make it sounds like any of this content is "hard" to play the normal way. I mean, sometimes they nerf things that shouldn't be nerfed but those ? I don't see how that matters. T3 is gone, both WB can be solo'd, you can still go infinitely high in endless,... Some part of those changes like nerfing mag pull but without refreshing it is problematic, I honestly  don't see any use to that ability, but the cheese it was used for ? I don't see how it matters, really.

Not hard, just stale and boring, reminds me of how Jeff Kaplan was surprised people in Overwatch would main heroes, well, people here would like to main as well, maybe not just one or two but then let's say you want to do Profit Taker, I hope you main one of the 3-4 viable frames for that mission, I am not even talking about endless content, that's pure masochism when the insane armor scaling kicks in but for me the worse part would be the damage scaling considering no amount of Guarding Halo you have with full armor and 3 Health Conversion stacks, let alone some abilities and mods can be useless, evasion? yeah, good luck using Titania with full evasion in anything that is not just regular stuff.

[(XBOX)SoullessRaptor]

4 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I can't believe I forgot about self-damage, so they don't want us to shove rockets or grenades on the enemy's face for some reason since this isn't a PvP game, I am not bothered with nuke frames but the rest can't even hold their ground in some cases, Banshee with or without quake augment is neither crowd control or mid level CC, the silence ability stuns for a while and allegedly gives the enemy less accuracy but once the higher leveled enemies come around accuracy "reduction" is meaningless, let's not even forget about things like Bombard's homing missiles, why are they homing missiles if they are using an ogris too?

Then they got rid of the self-damage "exploit" tactics like Trinity's Link and some others, you know what would have solved the issue without arbitrary changes? getting rid of self-damage.

My take on it is that Tenno-version weapons are tweaked to fit the needs of our forces. The Ogris has better magazines, higher rocket velocity, and a better fire rate to accommodate the Tenno's needs (fighting hordes of enemies without logistical support or backup), rather than the Grineer version, which can be used by their atrophied troops. 

Alternately, the 'Frames aren't fitted with the needed cybernetics to have the Ogris track

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)SoullessRaptor said:

My take on it is that Tenno-version weapons are tweaked to fit the needs of our forces. The Ogris has better magazines, higher rocket velocity, and a better fire rate to accommodate the Tenno's needs (fighting hordes of enemies without logistical support or backup), rather than the Grineer version, which can be used by their atrophied troops. 

Alternately, the 'Frames aren't fitted with the needed cybernetics to have the Ogris track

No amount of handwave can justify homing projectiles, is just a case of fake difficulty.

[(XBOX)SoullessRaptor]

2 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

No amount of handwave can justify homing projectiles, is just a case of fake difficulty.

More a compensation for limited capabilities in AI.

Plus, there are plenty of lore reasons to explain it

[VanFanel1980mx]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)SoullessRaptor said:

More a compensation for limited capabilities in AI.

Plus, there are plenty of lore reasons to explain it

A ton of new enemies have come since those times when Bombards were one of the few tough guys, I'd rather let them shoot rockets as fast as a Tenno does in exchange for being able to dodge them.

[(XBOX)SoullessRaptor]

You can dodge them. You just have to time an evasive move a little tighter.