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[DE]Megan

Buried Debts: Hotfix 24.5.2

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Zilchy said:

Well you're not really. See the way players work, they will choose the most efficient route possible, that's just how it is. So by moving the rewards from a certain element of the game, you make damn sure that element isn't played anymore, even if it's considered fun by people.

So when you said you liked the Eidolons, what you really meant was you liked the Eidolons' drops? Shouldn't you be in support of moving those drops to a less cancerous boss fight, then?

Edited by SordidDreams

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50 minutes ago, BabySshark said:

We need a better drop rate for Oxium please and thanks

the drop rate for oxium is 100% if you kill an oxium osprey...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Going fast is supposed to be the proper intention of phases and mechanics. I'm very sorry that you feel the team's hard work was being wasted, but the reality is that it was wasted not by players trying to go fast, it was wasted by whoever decided to design that fight to be slow. It's like opening a Blockbuster and then complaining that all the people using Netflix are wasting all your work; yes, the work was wasted, but not by anyone else, it was wasted by your decision to do something unwise. The whole point of a boss fight is learning the mechanics and how to do it efficiently. That's where the fun comes from in video games. The vent 'exploit' was the only learnable thing in that fight, with its removal there is now nothing left to discover and optimize and therefore no more fun to be had. It's no longer a game, it's just a chore. Intentionally designing a boss fight so that there's nothing learnable about it? That's... beyond words permissible on this forum, frankly.

Saying that "going fast is fun but it shouldn't sacrifice the team's hard work" is saying that you're knowingly and willingly sacrificing the enjoyment of millions of players on the altar of a boss fight designer's ego so that they don't have to face up to the fact that they made a bad boss fight. To be blunt, as game developers your job is to please your players, not yourselves. So please, tell your team to swallow their pride and revert the awful 'fix'.

It took what, four years to get you guys to change an awful decision with respect to vacuum on pets? I'm rather hoping in this case it's going to go a bit faster.

Edited by SordidDreams
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Another large part of this feedback is also the continued Matchmaking issues for the Exploiter Orb, that sometimes result in an inability to continue the fight. These Matchmaking issues are our current top priority to resolve ASAP.

I think the reason that some players are more upset about the removal of the exploit is the horrendous grind for Ephemera. Assuming 20 minute runs, 50% of people to get either Ephemera will take within 4 hours of grinding. This is fine, pretty standard for Warframe. The problem is that for 10% of players it is going to take over 12 hours of farming for one of either Ephemera. Do you want a specific Ephemera? Half will have it in a little under eight hours but that unlucky 10% will take over 26(!) hours. And getting both? Let's not go there.

 

Grinding is fine, getting lucky is fine, but for the most part the difference between "average luck" and "unlucky" is under three hours in the rest of the game. The reason people want to min/max this fight so hard is because you all at DE are asking for an incredible amount of our time. Getting an Ephemera should not be a "hey, I got lucky" it should be a "Look at this thing I worked for". Yall at DE are generally pretty good at hitting a fair balance, but this time I think there was a miscalculation.

Edited by DrBorris
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hace 1 hora, Genoscythe dijo:

Really appreciate the work of the team here, they sure put a lot of work into it and the personality of the orbs is pretty damn neat, first we got the overcaring mother, now the abusive stepmom straight from the 1920s. While I undestand that this boss fight is supposed to be different, I still think it has a big flaw, which is the fact that no matter how good everything you grinded for in this game is, the fight remains exactly the same.

I mean warframe is all about getting new frames and guns and making them more effective, now you gave us a boss that:

1. Ignores all abilites

2. Is only marginally influenced by damage

3. Has a fight that ALWAYS plays out the same, no matter what

OK, while there are some abilities that can help you in the fight (gara, oberon), I don't get why you are trying to make this fight essentially a 10 minute canister-throwing contest. Warframe has so many gameplay possibilities to offer and you literally don't use any of the mechanics the game has to offer apart from the most basic things: running, shooting and healing. The fact that player were use these exploits shows how in the end it all boils down to "get the loot as fast as you can and repeat". It makes grinding for gear and getting better feel pointless again, because nothing has an effect on it, anyway. Any player with an oberon that has 150% strenght, a streamline mod and the rage mod or energy plates and a snipetron with 6 mods can solo this fight. Why don't we get to USE what we have?

I believe That was the point.

Look, in the case of Profit Taker, i feel you're tied to use certain frames and certain weapons to be effective. All the grind you did helps you in dealing with the boss in a more effective way. Thing is, Exploiter orb is different. It's an event-boss only, with a Warframe drop. It seems [DE] intentions is to be accessible, and that's why the fight relies on not needing tons of grinded equipment: so it can be fought by a bigger margin of players. To begin with, you don't need tons of rep, or even finish the 50+ thermia fractures.

(not trying to change your opinion, start a debate or anything, just trying to make sense of [DE] design philosophy here)

To me, Exploiter it's a more "relaxed" boss fight. I don't need to worry about elemental combos or how well prepared it's my arsenal.  it's a "good" bossfight. Not "awesome" because it has it's flaws (like having to load in deck 12 and load out everytime, risking being stuck) but some of these i understand why it's there (in my example, those transitions allows for easy reset without leaving the vallis).

But it think everybody can agree it takes too long, and long bossfights are an issue when you need to repeat them over and over again (Tyl regor anyone? Equinox parts?)

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Lets be honest, it wasn't an exploit, you missed an ability that allowed us to do it faster.  As you say you spent months working on this boss battle and in that time you failed to test an ability that may be used in the boss fight to damage it... that's lack of full testing before release and the fact it was found so fast by players shows it wasn't even a hard one to find. 

You also missed the dodgy hit boxes on the actual boss itself when trying to hit the vents but funnily enough they're not getting anything done now we're forced to shoot all the vents individually.... 

 

And as we're being blunt, if this is the type of fight you come up with as a 'new type of boss fight' can you please go back to the drawing board because this fight is now nothing more than a time sink boss fight for tanky frames. 

Phase 1 - you spend more time waiting on the thermia canisters and the orb being up in the air than anything else, phase 2 you spend most of your time waiting on the raknoids and fractures to turn up....

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Another large part of this feedback is also the continued Matchmaking issues for the Exploiter Orb, that sometimes result in an inability to continue the fight. These Matchmaking issues are our current top priority to resolve ASAP.

Their hard work was well done but poorly implemented. The poor drop rate on ephemera, the ONLY reason to do the fight at all, rips all appreciation from you.

Look back at the history of video games, think of all the amazing boss fights, Sephiroth, Ruby Weapon, Abyss Watchers, Archon Priest, Soul or Cinders, come to my mind. 

This fight, even with the cheese, burned my friends and I out after 5 runs. That is not a good boss.

 

You and DE need to reevaluate what keeps players motivated.

Edited by -Bing-
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Posted (edited)

Throwing canisters at the Exploiter during Phase 2 is a clever mechanic and a wonderful break from the "use Chroma, bring boomstick" meta infesting the Profit-Taker and Eidolon fights, but during Phase 1 it's a pain to aim the damn things at the constantly jerking and moving Exploiter.

Maybe just make the vents vulnerable to Heat damage? Or change the canister drop stations into power ups that allow our weapons to melt the frozen vents? Our weapons can already be modded to shoot acid, explosives, space plagues and so on, so I personally wouldn't look twice at being able to temporarily empower them with thermia.

Also, let me just express how happy I am that the Exploiter Orb has some good dialogue (I love the way she talks!) and just as importantly, that she actually talks instead of hissing and wheezing like the Profit-Taker. If she didn't have subtitles, I wouldn't know the Profit-Taker was actually saying something rather than making random staticky noises.

Edited by Nasheim

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Saying that "going fast is fun but it shouldn't sacrifice the team's hard work" is saying that you're knowingly and willingly sacrificing the enjoyment of millions of players on the altar of a boss fight designer's ego so that they don't have to face up to the fact that they made a bad boss fight. To be blunt, as game developers your job is to please your players, not yourselves. So please, tell your team to swallow their pride and revert the awful 'fix'.

Such pretentious ignorance, wow... Must be feeling real good spitting out toxic nonsense over, what, 2-4 minutes of extra gameplay? :facepalm:Oh dear, players these days...

Edited by Thundervision

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Can you guys fix a bug where if you are Mesa and using archguns then die, using 4th ability only slows you down. It doesn't drain energy or make you use regulators. I don't even have Mesa's Waltz....

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6 minutes ago, -Bing- said:

Their hard work was well done but poorly implemented. The poor drop rate on ephemera, the ONLY reason to do the fight at all, rips all appreciation from you.

Look back at the history of video games, think of all the amazing boss fights, Sephiroth, Ruby Weapon, Abyss Watchers, Archon Priest, Soul or Cinders, come to my mind. 

 

Some of them are difficult, some of them are easy - all of them are appreciated. The fanboys coming here can do well to understand that we never called for an "easy" fight (if anything, blowing all 4 vents at once was harder than the "intended" tactic)

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3 minutes ago, Thundervision said:

Such pretentious ignorance, wow... Must be feeling real good spitting out toxic nonsense over, what, 2-4 minutes of extra gameplay? :facepalm:Oh dear, players these days...

Don't worry, you'll understand when you're older.

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17 hours ago, AIAS-5 said:

Thanks!

EDIT: One question though - will there be a Frame Figher Fragment for Hildryn any time? Doesn't seem like there's one around, Baruuk already missed out as well...

They should put the fragments for the plains/vallis frames in their respective open-world, like how the Fish statuettes and data bits are

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18 minutes ago, Aenris said:

It seems [DE] intentions is to be accessible

It's a weird way to say "time-gated".

If it's meant to be accessible then Hildryn BP would not have been locked behind Vox Solaris, resulting a long wait and standing grind to new and returning players getting introduced to Fortuna late. 

If it's meant to be accessible then it would not require Thermia to spawn the boss, an event item that no pug is doing now. 

If it's meant to be accessible then players would easier find each other to do the boss, or the pre-requisite Thermia Fractures, via bounties like Eidolon and the Ghouls. 

If it's meant to be accessible then having a high dps veteran players would fasten the boss fights because god forbid now fashionframe requires grinding.

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2 minutes ago, kgptzac said:

It's a weird way to say "time-gated".

If it's meant to be accessible then Hildryn BP would not have been locked behind Vox Solaris, resulting a long wait and standing grind to new and returning players getting introduced to Fortuna late. 

 

Made availible week after it was purchasable with plat mind you.

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hace 2 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

As someone that makes games too, I can see the hard work, appreciate the mechanic and overall, enjoy a different type of boss fight, this is a step in the right direction, let us enjoy a battle with whatever warframe we want to use, and with our favorite weapon, instead of the forced meta-frame/boomstick
Many people forget to enjoy the game and focus only in get in, shoot the boss, get out, rinse and repeat, which make the game boring.

If anything, I suggest that in the second phase the boss spawn the little green spiders too, and/or maybe, make she use her blizzard to push the players away/make them slow down. Now try to throw the canister in the middle of the white blizzard!

Again, thank you guys and keep the good work.

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2 minutes ago, theANIMALtm said:

let us enjoy a battle with whatever warframe we want to use, and with our favorite weapon, instead of the forced meta-frame/boomstick

And what frames exactly besides the tankmeta is of any use in the fight as it is now?

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Posted (edited)

I uh... Wow. Sensing a lot of negativity from this thread. Can we go less on the complaining and more on the "possibly make this better" route?

Just saying. Complaining certainly makes you feel better but in the end really accomplishes nothing.

Edit: and by make this better I mean constructive suggestions.

Edited by Rhundis
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb [DE]Megan:

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

This change also made every choice and variety in what frame to pick completely null. Nothing makes a difference anymore and while I do very much like that the fight introduces and uses it's own boss mechanic, the choice of which warframe to bring shouldnt be thrown out completely like it is with Exploiter (an ironic name in hindsight).

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5 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

I uh... Wow. Sensing a lot of negativity from this thread. Can we go less on the complaining and more on the "possibly make this better" route?

Just saying. Complaining certainly makes you feel better but in the end really accomplishes nothing.

Edit: and by make this better I mean constructive suggestions.

Well, then DE would have to scrap the whole fight and start from scratch.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

The skip didn't actually save much time because phase 1 is locked behind dialogue lines. People wanted to get past throwing a stone with 0 influence of our gear choice because that's not fun at all. I get the developers put long hours into fixing up the encounter, but it makes sense that players would rather skip to watching dialogues finish than throwing stones at a scripted object.

I still understand why it was fixed. You are right, it was an exploit. However, there's a reason people used it, and that information is great to help DE make the fight better.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Genoscythe said:

While I undestand that this boss fight is supposed to be different, I still think it has a big flaw, which is the fact that no matter how good everything you grinded for in this game is, the fight remains exactly the same.

I'm sorry but i have to disagree. I have every piece of gear in the game (Forma'd, catalysted, etc), and I think a "gear agnostic" fight is exactly what Warframe needs. It doesn't stop new players or geared players from contributing equally. There are plenty of bosses (eidolons im looking at you) that are gear-gated. Having one that is not dependent on gear (especially as it is an event) is very welcome, in my opinion.

Also, if I didn't say this before, great work DE on the fight. I think you guys did a stellar job, and while i have issues with your drop tables/grind level i think that this boss fight was really well planned and executed. So bravo.

Also i love the new switch functionality that you put in (F button), with that change the new melee update is perfect for me. I think Steve and whoever else was part of it did an excellent job. Well done.

Edited by Skaleek
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theANIMALtm said:

First of all, English is not my native language, that doesn't mean I should write in broken english, so I apologize for that, I will pay more attention next time.

Second, trying to disprove an argument pointing out a grammar typo is a cheap move, something shallow that a "kid" could do, because is the fastest way to "win" the argument, but, whatever, if that makes you feel bigger, good for you, yay!!

Third, I took the liberty to check your "feedback" , and I quote : " Did 4 almost perfect mid air shots that so the canister exploded in very close proximity to the vent but just cause the explosion was one pixel off it didn't melt the vent even by a bit.
You have to time your throws and shots perfectly.. and that oversized tick keeps twitching and spazing all the time."

Yesterday I enter the boss fight, 5 times, 3 solo, 2 with my brother, no problems whatsoever. We fail some throws, true, but that was human error, 5 battles in no more than 20 minutes each.

So I tell him about your "feedback" and he said that there are many variables, your rig, your internet connection, stupidity, autism.... anything can make you unable to shoot the canister in the right way, and I agree.
So, again, your "feedback", is nothing more than and whining from a spoiled brat that doesn't like the boss because is not the way he wants to be.

Nice now you resort to childish insults and personal attacks. I see i stuck a nerve.

Phase 1 has multipile problems, janky hitboxes and mid air explosion atop the vent not registering most of the time (especially for clients even if ping doesn't exceed 30ms) , people randomly getting kicked from the party when loading in a bug that was acknowledged and supposely fixed by DE but its not fixed (not fully anyways).

Aswell as after end of Phase 1 the door bugs out 50% times and never opens unless host disbands.

Problems that are reported multiple times across the board from various users a lot more credible than you.

But sure just cause you didn't play the boss fight enough time to even notice the problem or were lucky not to run into them that means everyone else who reported said problems and ways to improve the Phase 1 are "stupid" and "autistic" and its all their fault right? 

Ladies and gentlemen 

The royal highness theANIMALtm doesn't accept your pathetic bug reports and feedback.

They are all invalid cause he said so if you encounter those issues it means its your fault.

*sigh*

Excuse me who's the spoiled one again?

Edited by Lythael
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The back and forth arguing / disrespect flying around in this thread is just too much.

Being frustrated because something isn't working right is understandable, but please try to keep it respectful to DE as well as one another.

Thank you all in advance!  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The skip didn't actually save much time because phase 1 is locked behind dialogue lines. People wanted to get past throwing a stone with 0 influence of our gear choice because that's not fun at all. I get the developers put long hours into fixing up the encounter, but it makes sense that players would rather skip to watching dialogues finish than throwing stones at a scripted object.

I still understand why it was fixed. You are right, it was an exploit. However, there's a reason people used it, and that information is great to help DE make the fight better.

Throwing stones at a scripted object is every shooter ever though. Replace stones with bullets, replace throwing with shooting (which is the same in this context, its just compensating for an arc and firing a launcher weapon). The whole game is about doing that, i don't think you can really fault the fight for having that mechanic in it. I'm really okay with our gear not having an impact on the boss fight, it gives everyone equal footing which is something i havent seen in a boss fight in Warframe, for a long time, if ever (Vay hek + Jordas Trial?) I mean the whole fight is effectively a "throw the canister" at the exploiter, with some sprinkled in Mobile Defense elements. I'm still of the opinion the fight is good and enjoyable, albeit a little long (especially when you have to do 9+ runs to get the 3 Hildryn pieces you want, yeah it happened).

I still think that if they sped up phase 2 a little bit the fight would be in a better place. The first phase doesn't take very much longer with a co-ordinated group of people.

Edited by Skaleek

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