Buried Debts: Hotfix 24.5.2

[Skaleek]

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's not all there is to shooter games, though. Nobody's faulting the fight for having the throwing mechanic, what people are faulting it for is having nothing but the throwing mechanic. Shooting stuff is not all there is to shooter games, the interesting part is learning how and where and with what to shoot for maximum effect. Hence the plethora of guns and mods in WF, they exist for you to experiment with and learn the best combinations and strategies. That's where the fun in video games comes from. DE has intentionally designed this boss fight so that there was nothing learnable about it, and when players found the one thing DE overlooked, DE patched it out. That's why everyone's mad, because with nothing learnable left in the fight, there's also no more fun to be had.

I do agree that speeding up phase 2 is a must. I'd have liked to see that even with the skip in place, without it it's nothing short of mandatory.

I mean, you still get to use your guns to kill the cooling raknoids quickly. I found the fight worked really well with the opticor vandal, not sure if they did that on purpose or it just turned out that way. The gear agnostic part of the fight I'm ok with.

As soon as you say "well let me use my guns on steroids", DE goes well ok, im going to "tune the enemies health" in response. You're gonna get bullet sponges so that you can bring your riven'd rubico along on the mission. I'm against this. I think having everyone on the exact same playing field is ideal. It lets DE tune for skill rather than for gear acquisition level.

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

Also my buddy (who was playing nova), began farming this fight and dying almost every round. By the end, he never died because he learned how to dodge the dangerous attacks in phase 1. Shows a skill progression that helps make the fight go smoother (i wouldnt say faster though).

[Cyclouros]

2 minutes ago, hazZzard said:

Many - from shooters to probably all big mmorpgs. Not everything needs to be the same 🙂

Then it's ironic that you praise a big spider that throws a thousand mini-spiders at you, lacking any other tactic or strategy but "wait for an item to spawn so you can throw it at boss."

Does it not sound familiar in any way?

 

1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

[blaes]

DE, you should seriously consider cutting the number of vents to 2 for the first phase of exploiter fight, and one hatch only (plus the head) for second phase.

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

Not familiar with the reference sorry!

[Cyclouros]

3 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Not familiar with the reference sorry!

Dark Souls.

[hazZzard]

3 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

Then it's ironic that you praise a big spider that throws a thousand mini-spiders at you, lacking any other tactic or strategy but "wait for an item to spawn so you can throw it at boss."

Does it not sound familiar in any way?

 

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

Read again 😉 

[NOXBIVES2]

Doing 4 thermal vents is only rewarding 4 thermia instead of 7. Is this an intended change?

 

[SordidDreams]

13 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I mean, you still get to use your guns to kill the cooling raknoids quickly. I found the fight worked really well with the opticor vandal, not sure if they did that on purpose or it just turned out that way. The gear agnostic part of the fight I'm ok with.

As soon as you say "well let me use my guns on steroids", DE goes well ok, im going to "tune the enemies health" in response. You're gonna get bullet sponges so that you can bring your riven'd rubico along on the mission. I'm against this. I think having everyone on the exact same playing field is ideal. It lets DE tune for skill rather than for gear acquisition level.

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

I don't like bullet sponges either, but the shooty part of the fight is not really interesting IMO. Yeah, some guns work better than others, but it's hitscan guns with low recoil and/or high damage, i.e. the same guns that work better than others everywhere else as well. It'd be a different story if the fight rewarded using something weird, like a penta or a mutalist quanta or some other gun nobody ever uses, but it doesn't.

It's true that no fight is going to feel exciting after doing it 20 times, but it should damn well feel satisfying, because by that point you should be really good at it. And that's what I'm saying, the fight doesn't deliver that satisfaction because there's literally nothing to get better at. Chucking the canisters? You don't even need to compensate for drop and travel time, the game does that automatically for you. Killing the spiders? Laughably easy by itself, and you can't learn the pattern of where they come from because there isn't one, they spawn randomly. I'm okay with making fights either gear-agnostic or skill-agnostic, the problem is DE made this one both, and it's awful as a result.

[Cyclouros]

2 minutes ago, hazZzard said:

Read again 😉 

" First of all: thanks for the exploiter fights. I like it. It's fun and the cutscenes are also a very nice idea. More like this "

" Not everything needs to be the same "

Yet you praised them for doing the same thing that's become a generic cliché in videogames?

[Skaleek]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm okay with making fights either gear-agnostic or skill-agnostic, the problem is DE made this one both, and it's awful as a result.

I see what you're saying. You're hoping for something a little more difficult given the fact that gear doesn't matter. They should add a hard mode version that rewards relics or kuva(Or maybe the ephemera at a higher rate). Then maybe they can tune it to a harder difficulty. If they were to create a dark souls-esque boss fight they would alienate a lot of their player base. Let's face it, Warframe has players of all skill levels, and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

[Cyclouros]

Just now, Skaleek said:

and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

The nightwave debate would like to stop you right there.

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

The nightwave debate would like to stop you right there.

Nightwave isnt content, truth be told, its a game system with no new content (Okay the wolf and survivors is new content technically, if you want to gnit pick). Regardless, any nightwave requirements are within the reach of every player, they just need to do X or farm Y to access whatever content is blocked from them.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Skaleek said:

I see what you're saying. You're hoping for something a little more difficult given the fact that gear doesn't matter. They should add a hard mode version that rewards relics or kuva(Or maybe the ephemera at a higher rate). Then maybe they can tune it to a harder difficulty. If they were to create a dark souls-esque boss fight they would alienate a lot of their player base. Let's face it, Warframe has players of all skill levels, and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

They already have a Souls-esque boss, Lephantis/Hemocyte. It's huge, it has specific weak points you have to aim at, and it telegraphs its attacks a week in advance. IMO it's one of the best bosses they've ever made.

[---BakiPrime---]

fix  the venka primes  traces   on valkyr please

[Skaleek]

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

They already have a Souls-esque boss, Lephantis/Hemocyte. It's huge, it has specific weak points you have to aim at, and it telegraphs its attacks a week in advance. IMO it's one of the best bosses they've ever made.

I like Lephantis. He scales ridiculously though. Fight him in a sortie and his damage cap makes it take a long while to kill him.

The Razorback is another example of an almost completely gear agnostic fight, you just need those weapons to kill the initial bursas. I think razorback was quite well done as well!

[Hackfield]

hace 3 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Another large part of this feedback is also the continued Matchmaking issues for the Exploiter Orb, that sometimes result in an inability to continue the fight. These Matchmaking issues are our current top priority to resolve ASAP.

This is a reminder that the silent majority is not here complaining but actually playing and enjoying the game!

Exploiter is by far the best boss in the game right now, I enjoy every stage of the fight, and the drops are fair, kudos to the team!

I (and the people I play with) seriously want more fights like the Exploiter, fun, cinematic and epic fights of our frames with rewarding drops at the end.

[Cyclouros]

7 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Nightwave isnt content, truth be told, its a game system with no new content (Okay the wolf and survivors is new content technically, if you want to gnit pick). Regardless, any nightwave requirements are within the reach of every player, they just need to do X or farm Y to access whatever content is blocked from them.

True enough, it's simply a list of chores for the week.

But Profit-taker? We have seen enough people in this thread that are barred from doing it because they don't like the warframe open worlds and some in my clan.

And why it is "kill profit-taker with a friend or clanmate" instead of just "kill profit-taker" seems more like a punishment for soloplayers than a reward.

It is violently anti-newbie.

 

And i do wonder if people are honest about finding it fun to stand still waiting for coolant to arrive so they can throw it. The fight is the definition of a menial task.

[Borg1611]

If you want to create a new kind of fight, and that fight takes awhile to do sans exploit, maybe have rewards that are meaningful? You get Hildryn and then there's nothing from the fight besides farming excessive amounts of mats many might not need or care that much about. 

The only really desired end-game item that's still elusive to a lot of players is arcanes, but the only place to get them is from Eidolons, which are still time locked behind the most horrendous time-gate system ever conceived. Having Venus fights not time-gated behind an awful clock was a huge improvement over Earth, but none of them drop anything interesting. Should you not want people interested in your newer content at end-game over the older content? Why weren't new frame arcanes created and added to Venus Orb fights, or some of the old ones added if they didn't want to go tot he trouble of coming up with new ones? 

[Xepthrichros]

Here's a constructive bit of feedback for this boss fight, and past boss fights, and future boss fights.

 

Right now, bosses in warframe seem to be in two extremes - either they are vulnerable to our abilities and get killed in matter of seconds, and I get it, these are early game bosses; or they are completely immune and nothing we do works and the only meta is using warframes with built-in survival mechanics (HP, Shields, Armor, ability armor reduction, whatever) and a select number of weapons.

I want abilities to be relevant again even for superbosses (Eidolons and Orb Mothers). Abilities should not one-shot them. But they should provide some benefit elsewhere - and by abilities, it can include some extra passive bonuses too. I am going to rattle off a list of ideas, some of them might be OP, some might be just marginal benefits, but I thought these up on the fly, like in the last 5 minute. Here goes:

 

1) Frost can negate and get some armor from Exploiter's cold attacks.

2) Ember can increase effectiveness of Thermia canister and thaw the ice on the vents at a slow rate, or reduce the rate Exploiter can cool herself in the 2nd phase

3) Molecular prime can increase the effectiveness of a Thermia canister going boom

4) Mag, the magnetic specialist, can have a CHANCE to disrupt Profit-Taker's pushy shields, and a CHANCE to even cause Profit-taker's main shields to be vulnerable to ALL damage types for a short time

5) Saryn's spores do no damage on Profit-Taker but she can use her giant body as a place to just grow the spores anyway and spread them to kill the fodder enemies that can be bothersome 

6) Bastille can't lift the Orb Mothers and Eidolons but it can slow them down by maybe 20% or something

7) Wukong's staff hits with such force, a well-aimed blow to the head has a chance to cause an Eidolon or Orb Mother to stagger for a few seconds, disrupting whatever they were doing.

8 ) Gara's first skill can cut / poke temporary holes and chinks into the special shields of Orb Mothers or Eidolons that allow players to deal damage with any weapon for a brief period (l.e. creates a Helios-style weak spot)

9) Banshee's sonar creates temporary weak spots that vanish after being fired at a few times

10) Loki's disarm jams their gun / cannons for a short duration.

And so on.

Just a quick list of whatever idea popped into my head the last 5 minutes. Every warframe can get 1 or 2 unique ability/passive-related interactions with the superbosses. If any of the abilities trivialize things too much, e.g. some might worry "what if I permastun the boss with this ability and trivialize it" then DE can just add "status effect recovery" periods... basically, Hildryn has a shield-gate, bosses can get a brief status-gate after being hit by an ability that maybe stuns them or gave them a weak spot etc. so they cannot be stunned repeatedly.

 

[Sh4guar]

Since the first deployment of melee changes, i have not been able to use my steam controller for melee.

The patch about a week later claimed to have "fixed" the controller and melee problem, i have noticed no difference at all.

subsequent patches have not even mentioned it as a side note, or passed any comment on the matter to say that DE are working on it.

The closet thing to "melee" i can perform is to draw and then put away my melee weapon, i believe when drawing the weapon i am performing a "quick attack", pressing the same button again does nothing at all.

for context;

I play warframe via steam, the auto detect controller settings sets my steam controller as an Xbox controller (previously no problems at all).

Changing the settings so that the Fire button functions for melee does nothing, neither does binding the E key to the controller button.

any advice or comments?

[Xaxma]

Hildryn's 1 is broken. Can't be activated without being activated first before Aegis Storm.

[hazZzard]

1 minute ago, Cyclouros said:

" First of all: thanks for the exploiter fights. I like it. It's fun and the cutscenes are also a very nice idea. More like this "

" Not everything needs to be the same "

Yet you praised them for doing the same thing that's become a generic cliché in videogames?

The difference is that many games keep making challenging boss tactics which are fine for several games (for example I did mythic raids in WoW for quite a long time). It takes practice to bring a group to the level to clear a mythic raid. I like warframe, but warframe is not the type of game for me where I wanna spend 4 hours in a raid with teamspeak and tactics discussion. Hope this clarifies - in case you wanna continue this discussion feel free to hit me ingame or PM. No need to fill this forum with private discussions 😉 

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Here's a constructive bit of feedback for this boss fight, and past boss fights, and future boss fights.

And so on.

 

Honestly, I love the list. I think that is so cool, and to see that kind of interaction with one boss in Warframe would be epic. But from a developers point of view, you know they will never do something like this. Why?

1. You have to keep updating the "passive bonuses" each warframe gets against the boss. Including when a new Warframe is added. They already have so much they have to put in place to add new Warframes, adding a passive to each boss fight is just a lot more work for very little gained.

2. People will complain that one WF is best and the meta will shift to everyone using the exact same WF or comp. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Perfect balance is a Unicorn.

3. It takes an extreme amount of development, testing, and resources to implement this to very little noticeable effect given point 2.

I think your ideas are awesome though.

[Roughcut]

Will Hildryn regain the ability to cast her 1 while in her 4? I can't seem to understand this change, it's just an additional annoyance when it comes to using her synergies. I could understand if you could use guns in Aegis Storm, but that's not the case.

[tate118]

I think it semi broke hildryn 1, can't activate balefire when in aegis storm so I would have to activate it before taking flight