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[DE]Megan

Buried Debts: Hotfix 24.5.2

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The Door bug between Phase 1 and 2 kills me. I played 3 days without a single problem until your "hotfix" broke the game again. Now I'm waiting for another "hotfix" and meanwhile a lost a whole day of grinding...

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, (PS4)Crackle2012 said:

The back and forth arguing / disrespect flying around in this thread is just too much.

Being frustrated because something isn't working right is understandable, but please try to keep it respectful to DE as well as one another.

Thank you all in advance!  

You could start by removing posts that are only people coming into the thread to attack and insult anyone that isn't praising DE. Like that one person that used autism as a way to slander those he does not agree with.

Edited by Cyclouros
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Love the boss fight. Huge improvement over previous boss fights.

I've run at about 10 times, the one time I ended in a group with an Octavia that skipped phase 1 it just felt flat.

But then again, I play for the journey, not the goal. Sweet loot is all good and fine, but the game play to get it has to be interesting. 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Throwing stones at a scripted object is every shooter ever though. Replace stones with bullets, replace throwing with shooting (which is the same in this context, its just compensating for an arc and firing a launcher weapon). The whole game is about doing that, i don't think you can really fault the fight for having that mechanic in it. I mean the whole fight is effectively a "throw the canister" at the exploiter, with some sprinkled in Mobile Defense elements. I'm still of the opinion the fight is good and enjoyable, albeit a little long (especially when you have to do 9+ runs to get the 3 Hildryn pieces you want, yeah it happened).

I still think that if they sped up phase 2 a little bit the fight would be in a better place. The first phase doesn't take very much longer with a co-ordinated group of people.

Nobody's faulting the fight for having the throwing mechanic, what people are faulting it for is having nothing but the throwing mechanic. Shooting stuff is not all there is to shooter games, the interesting part is learning how and where and with what to shoot for maximum effect. Hence the plethora of guns and mods in WF, they exist for you to experiment with and learn the best combinations and strategies. That's where the fun in video games comes from. DE has intentionally designed this boss fight so that there was nothing learnable about it, and when players found the one thing DE overlooked, DE patched it out. That's why everyone's mad, because with nothing learnable left in the fight, there's also no more fun to be had. All that's left is a chore that you do until you have the loot you want and then never again.

I do agree that speeding up phase 2 is a must. I'd have liked to see that even with the skip in place, without it it's nothing short of mandatory.

Edited by SordidDreams
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I think the community's complaints about the Nova skip vs. DE's stance on the Exploiter fight is emblematic of one of the core issues of Warframe in its current state, (in my opinion). Many players want their Warframe to feel powerful and integral to enemy encounters, but DE finds ways to nerf them and make Warframe abilities basically pointless. Basically there's no point right now in Eidolons/Profit Taker to pick anything other than standard meta frames which all involve damage mitigation and weapon buffs and nothing else, so Nova being able to contribute to the fight with a Warframe Ability (!) was a pleasant surprise. The phase 1 skip wasn't how you intended it to be done, so you fixed it, that's understandable. Though in the future, continue working hard with the knowledge that we WANT to use our Warframe abilities to overcome challenges. 

Please DE, we have a wonderful cast of Warframes with unique abilities, but we never get to use them on anything outside of trash mobs. 

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2 hours ago, Cyclouros said:

I have to ask... what games have you been playing pre-warframe?

Many - from shooters to probably all big mmorpgs. Not everything needs to be the same 🙂

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's not all there is to shooter games, though. Nobody's faulting the fight for having the throwing mechanic, what people are faulting it for is having nothing but the throwing mechanic. Shooting stuff is not all there is to shooter games, the interesting part is learning how and where and with what to shoot for maximum effect. Hence the plethora of guns and mods in WF, they exist for you to experiment with and learn the best combinations and strategies. That's where the fun in video games comes from. DE has intentionally designed this boss fight so that there was nothing learnable about it, and when players found the one thing DE overlooked, DE patched it out. That's why everyone's mad, because with nothing learnable left in the fight, there's also no more fun to be had.

I do agree that speeding up phase 2 is a must. I'd have liked to see that even with the skip in place, without it it's nothing short of mandatory.

I mean, you still get to use your guns to kill the cooling raknoids quickly. I found the fight worked really well with the opticor vandal, not sure if they did that on purpose or it just turned out that way. The gear agnostic part of the fight I'm ok with.

As soon as you say "well let me use my guns on steroids", DE goes well ok, im going to "tune the enemies health" in response. You're gonna get bullet sponges so that you can bring your riven'd rubico along on the mission. I'm against this. I think having everyone on the exact same playing field is ideal. It lets DE tune for skill rather than for gear acquisition level.

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

Also my buddy (who was playing nova), began farming this fight and dying almost every round. By the end, he never died because he learned how to dodge the dangerous attacks in phase 1. Shows a skill progression that helps make the fight go smoother (i wouldnt say faster though).

Edited by Skaleek

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, hazZzard said:

Many - from shooters to probably all big mmorpgs. Not everything needs to be the same 🙂

Then it's ironic that you praise a big spider that throws a thousand mini-spiders at you, lacking any other tactic or strategy but "wait for an item to spawn so you can throw it at boss."

Does it not sound familiar in any way?

 

1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

Edited by Cyclouros

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DE, you should seriously consider cutting the number of vents to 2 for the first phase of exploiter fight, and one hatch only (plus the head) for second phase.

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2 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

Not familiar with the reference sorry!

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3 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Not familiar with the reference sorry!

Dark Souls.

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3 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

Then it's ironic that you praise a big spider that throws a thousand mini-spiders at you, lacking any other tactic or strategy but "wait for an item to spawn so you can throw it at boss."

Does it not sound familiar in any way?

 

Ornstein and Smough says hi.

Read again 😉 

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Doing 4 thermal vents is only rewarding 4 thermia instead of 7. Is this an intended change?

 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I mean, you still get to use your guns to kill the cooling raknoids quickly. I found the fight worked really well with the opticor vandal, not sure if they did that on purpose or it just turned out that way. The gear agnostic part of the fight I'm ok with.

As soon as you say "well let me use my guns on steroids", DE goes well ok, im going to "tune the enemies health" in response. You're gonna get bullet sponges so that you can bring your riven'd rubico along on the mission. I'm against this. I think having everyone on the exact same playing field is ideal. It lets DE tune for skill rather than for gear acquisition level.

No fight is gonna be exciting after doing it 20+ times, whether you make gear important to the fight or not.

I don't like bullet sponges either, but the shooty part of the fight is not really interesting IMO. Yeah, some guns work better than others, but it's hitscan guns with low recoil and/or high damage, i.e. the same guns that work better than others everywhere else as well. It'd be a different story if the fight rewarded using something weird, like a penta or a mutalist quanta or some other gun nobody ever uses, but it doesn't.

It's true that no fight is going to feel exciting after doing it 20 times, but it should damn well feel satisfying, because by that point you should be really good at it. And that's what I'm saying, the fight doesn't deliver that satisfaction because there's literally nothing to get better at. Chucking the canisters? You don't even need to compensate for drop and travel time, the game does that automatically for you. Killing the spiders? Laughably easy by itself, and you can't learn the pattern of where they come from because there isn't one, they spawn randomly. I'm okay with making fights either gear-agnostic or skill-agnostic, the problem is DE made this one both, and it's awful as a result.

Edited by SordidDreams

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2 minutes ago, hazZzard said:

Read again 😉 

" First of all: thanks for the exploiter fights. I like it. It's fun and the cutscenes are also a very nice idea. More like this "

" Not everything needs to be the same "

Yet you praised them for doing the same thing that's become a generic cliché in videogames?

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1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm okay with making fights either gear-agnostic or skill-agnostic, the problem is DE made this one both, and it's awful as a result.

I see what you're saying. You're hoping for something a little more difficult given the fact that gear doesn't matter. They should add a hard mode version that rewards relics or kuva(Or maybe the ephemera at a higher rate). Then maybe they can tune it to a harder difficulty. If they were to create a dark souls-esque boss fight they would alienate a lot of their player base. Let's face it, Warframe has players of all skill levels, and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

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Just now, Skaleek said:

and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

The nightwave debate would like to stop you right there.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Cyclouros said:

The nightwave debate would like to stop you right there.

Nightwave isnt content, truth be told, its a game system with no new content (Okay the wolf and survivors is new content technically, if you want to gnit pick). Regardless, any nightwave requirements are within the reach of every player, they just need to do X or farm Y to access whatever content is blocked from them.

Edited by Skaleek

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Just now, Skaleek said:

I see what you're saying. You're hoping for something a little more difficult given the fact that gear doesn't matter. They should add a hard mode version that rewards relics or kuva(Or maybe the ephemera at a higher rate). Then maybe they can tune it to a harder difficulty. If they were to create a dark souls-esque boss fight they would alienate a lot of their player base. Let's face it, Warframe has players of all skill levels, and DE wants everyone to be able to enjoy their content.

They already have a Souls-esque boss, Lephantis/Hemocyte. It's huge, it has specific weak points you have to aim at, and it telegraphs its attacks a week in advance. IMO it's one of the best bosses they've ever made.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

They already have a Souls-esque boss, Lephantis/Hemocyte. It's huge, it has specific weak points you have to aim at, and it telegraphs its attacks a week in advance. IMO it's one of the best bosses they've ever made.

I like Lephantis. He scales ridiculously though. Fight him in a sortie and his damage cap makes it take a long while to kill him.

The Razorback is another example of an almost completely gear agnostic fight, you just need those weapons to kill the initial bursas. I think razorback was quite well done as well!

Edited by Skaleek

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hace 3 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

Quoting myself here to shed some light on this hot topic that is currently being discussed within this thread.

To be blunt, this is an exploit. The team here worked for months on creating a different kind of boss fight from the norm, and it was never intended for players to completely bypass phases of the Exploiter Orb. Going fast is fun, we totally get it. But going fast shouldn't sacrifice the hard work that has been made, or the proper intentions of phases/mechanics.

Another large part of this feedback is also the continued Matchmaking issues for the Exploiter Orb, that sometimes result in an inability to continue the fight. These Matchmaking issues are our current top priority to resolve ASAP.

This is a reminder that the silent majority is not here complaining but actually playing and enjoying the game!

Exploiter is by far the best boss in the game right now, I enjoy every stage of the fight, and the drops are fair, kudos to the team!

I (and the people I play with) seriously want more fights like the Exploiter, fun, cinematic and epic fights of our frames with rewarding drops at the end.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Nightwave isnt content, truth be told, its a game system with no new content (Okay the wolf and survivors is new content technically, if you want to gnit pick). Regardless, any nightwave requirements are within the reach of every player, they just need to do X or farm Y to access whatever content is blocked from them.

True enough, it's simply a list of chores for the week.

But Profit-taker? We have seen enough people in this thread that are barred from doing it because they don't like the warframe open worlds and some in my clan.

And why it is "kill profit-taker with a friend or clanmate" instead of just "kill profit-taker" seems more like a punishment for soloplayers than a reward.

It is violently anti-newbie.

 

And i do wonder if people are honest about finding it fun to stand still waiting for coolant to arrive so they can throw it. The fight is the definition of a menial task.

Edited by Cyclouros

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If you want to create a new kind of fight, and that fight takes awhile to do sans exploit, maybe have rewards that are meaningful? You get Hildryn and then there's nothing from the fight besides farming excessive amounts of mats many might not need or care that much about. 

The only really desired end-game item that's still elusive to a lot of players is arcanes, but the only place to get them is from Eidolons, which are still time locked behind the most horrendous time-gate system ever conceived. Having Venus fights not time-gated behind an awful clock was a huge improvement over Earth, but none of them drop anything interesting. Should you not want people interested in your newer content at end-game over the older content? Why weren't new frame arcanes created and added to Venus Orb fights, or some of the old ones added if they didn't want to go tot he trouble of coming up with new ones? 

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Here's a constructive bit of feedback for this boss fight, and past boss fights, and future boss fights.

 

Right now, bosses in warframe seem to be in two extremes - either they are vulnerable to our abilities and get killed in matter of seconds, and I get it, these are early game bosses; or they are completely immune and nothing we do works and the only meta is using warframes with built-in survival mechanics (HP, Shields, Armor, ability armor reduction, whatever) and a select number of weapons.

I want abilities to be relevant again even for superbosses (Eidolons and Orb Mothers). Abilities should not one-shot them. But they should provide some benefit elsewhere - and by abilities, it can include some extra passive bonuses too. I am going to rattle off a list of ideas, some of them might be OP, some might be just marginal benefits, but I thought these up on the fly, like in the last 5 minute. Here goes:

 

1) Frost can negate and get some armor from Exploiter's cold attacks.

2) Ember can increase effectiveness of Thermia canister and thaw the ice on the vents at a slow rate, or reduce the rate Exploiter can cool herself in the 2nd phase

3) Molecular prime can increase the effectiveness of a Thermia canister going boom

4) Mag, the magnetic specialist, can have a CHANCE to disrupt Profit-Taker's pushy shields, and a CHANCE to even cause Profit-taker's main shields to be vulnerable to ALL damage types for a short time

5) Saryn's spores do no damage on Profit-Taker but she can use her giant body as a place to just grow the spores anyway and spread them to kill the fodder enemies that can be bothersome 

6) Bastille can't lift the Orb Mothers and Eidolons but it can slow them down by maybe 20% or something

7) Wukong's staff hits with such force, a well-aimed blow to the head has a chance to cause an Eidolon or Orb Mother to stagger for a few seconds, disrupting whatever they were doing.

8 ) Gara's first skill can cut / poke temporary holes and chinks into the special shields of Orb Mothers or Eidolons that allow players to deal damage with any weapon for a brief period (l.e. creates a Helios-style weak spot)

9) Banshee's sonar creates temporary weak spots that vanish after being fired at a few times

10) Loki's disarm jams their gun / cannons for a short duration.

And so on.

Just a quick list of whatever idea popped into my head the last 5 minutes. Every warframe can get 1 or 2 unique ability/passive-related interactions with the superbosses. If any of the abilities trivialize things too much, e.g. some might worry "what if I permastun the boss with this ability and trivialize it" then DE can just add "status effect recovery" periods... basically, Hildryn has a shield-gate, bosses can get a brief status-gate after being hit by an ability that maybe stuns them or gave them a weak spot etc. so they cannot be stunned repeatedly.

 

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