Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[NezuHimeSama]

It does tell you not to play, when you finish your daily/weekly chores. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

I skipped the vast majority of alerts because they were inconsequential, and therefore made no significant impact, unlike nightwave. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 minutes ago, pittaxx said:

I'm a bit surprised that no one is noting that the "plains bounties" Nightwave challenge clearly does not work as intended.

If it was "bounty stages" it would be in line with the other "finish 3 missions" challenges, as it would take similar amount of time and give the same 3000 standing reward. However, we get 8 "bounties" instead, which forces us to do the easiest bounties that give no challenge or rewards to finish it in 50! minutes (2 min average * 3 * 8 + some overhead).

If we want to do the max level bounty (so we actually get something from it), we are punished by needing to spend double of that time on the plains (5 stages instead of 3 and longer average time because you need to kill significantly more stuff). That's just not ok.

If what you are saying were true we'd only need to do a single mobile defense mission as each has 3 stages. 

And we have a week to finish the 8 bounties. There's nothing forcing any of us to choose the lowest level. Many of the people choosing it are making an informed choice to do that. Others are lower levels who have trouble doing the harder content. If you want the better rewards do the higher level bounties. 

Oh and try blasting the ships in the air before they drop off the passengers. That way you kill more stuff faster and have less mopping up of scattered enemies to do. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It does tell you not to play, when you finish your daily/weekly chores. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

I skipped the vast majority of alerts because they were inconsequential, and therefore made no significant impact, unlike nightwave. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

No, it does not. You choose not to play, because you seem to have a thing about not putting out any extra effort into whatever you do. 

Coming down to the end of week you'll mostly find me helping others complete stuff, I might be grinding extra focus in the sanctuary, or I might be taking randoms fishing with my bait, on the plains. Last week I must've used 5 apothics because there were lots of people who didn't have the first clue about them. One week I spent the time helping people close those fractures.

In each and every single one of those times, I benefitted. There is absolutely nothing telling me to stop playing, because I don't seem to have your irrational fears of missing out on anything. I enjoy playing the game, so what you have been reeing about this whole time, is fun for me. 

And I seem to recall you being asked very plainly what parts of the game are enjoyable for you, but you seemed to be unable to give any actual answer to that. I am pretty sure that you should have realised that that's pretty significant. 

[NezuHimeSama]

No amount of extra effort will produce more nightwave missions to chew through. Just because you choose to do something else doesn't mean Nightwave is encouraging you to play at your own pace. It's very clearly gating you to play at a certain pace, and that is bad. PSO2 does similar things, and you know what? Half the time I check PSUblog, I go "oh I guess I missed out on too much this week, I just won't play it then". You know what happens with the community? The first few days after maint, the game is healthy, has an uptick on the weekend, and then is dead until next maint.

This kind of gated content isn't a new concept that Warframe came up with. It has happened before. We've seen what it does to every other game that does it.

And I already answered that question some 4 or 5 times, but you keep ignoring it, and everything else, just to perpetuate an argument to feed your ego.

[pittax]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If what you are saying were true we'd only need to do a single mobile defense mission as each has 3 stages. 

Stages have nothing to do with it, it's the time taken. Doing 3 non-endless missions is 10-20 minutes depending on the type (mobile defence is a bit long). Doing 8 "bounty stages" is 16-24min (which would be somewhat on par). Doing 8 bounties is 50-100 min. Both 3 mission and 8 bounty challenges give same 3000 standing.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

8 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No amount of extra effort will produce more nightwave missions to chew through. Just because you choose to do something else doesn't mean Nightwave is encouraging you to play at your own pace. It's very clearly gating you to play at a certain pace, and that is bad. 

The name of this game is "Warframe", not "Nightwave 24-7". You seem to currently be asking to do more challenges that you have repeatedly said that you don't want to do because they're forcing you to do them. 

Nightwave allows me to play at my own pace, just as it apparently allows you to do. It gives me 3 days to complete very simple challenges and a week to complete slightly more advanced ones. I can pick and choose which ones I want to skip for whatever reason and I do avail myself of that fact as we've bee clearly told that we only need 60 to 65% of the available standing, and in 10 weeks I can safely be done by doing only 30k of 43k per week. 

Towards the end of the week I find that I have no more challenges that I need or want to do, and I still play Warframe, because it's a game I enjoy playing. 

So far you still seem unable to indicate a single thing that you actually enjoy doing in this game. Have you considered the possibility that you just don't enjoy playing this game and are looking for an excuse with all of the sour grapes you have been tossing about for the last month? 

[NezuHimeSama]

I'm not asking to do more or less challenges. As I already explained, numerous times I want to do them when I want, and not during the narrow window the game tells me to.

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept to grasp, so it's really obvious that you just don't want to admit to understanding it so you can perpetuate this silly farce of an "argument" and keep patting yourself on the back. You keep asking the same questions I already answered a dozen times, and then pretending I never did.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

20 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I'm not asking to do more or less challenges. As I already explained, numerous times I want to do them when I want, and not during the narrow window the game tells me to.

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept to grasp, so it's really obvious that you just don't want to admit to understanding it so you can perpetuate this silly farce of an "argument" and keep patting yourself on the back. You keep asking the same questions I already answered a dozen times, and then pretending I never did.

And I have pointed out the very simple facts that 1) the windows are not particularly narrow by comparison to the ones that have been enforced in th and past, and 2) just as you admit that you skipped over 90% of all past alerts and just waited for the ones that you felt like doing to get the rewards, we're free to do that again. 

And you haven't answered the question AFAIK. If so you can easily quote the answer for me (the same way I can easily quote where you called someone a liar over the fact that they said they get less than 8 hours of sleep per day) and if it does answer the question I will apologise. 

Of course if it doesn't indicate at least one actual thing that we do in the the game that you do enjoy, then you may want to consider just answering instead of quoting yourself saying something ridiculously vague that never answered the question of "what content do you enjoy doing that would not be a 'chore' according to you"? 

(Btw if you had read the thread on how to give good feedback you might realise that offering that sort of information is generally a good idea, instead of standing around throwing a tantrum, and trying to convince people that all the grapes you can't have are sour.) 

[Enialyx]

41 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I'm not asking to do more or less challenges. As I already explained, numerous times I want to do them when I want, and not during the narrow window the game tells me to.

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept to grasp, so it's really obvious that you just don't want to admit to understanding it so you can perpetuate this silly farce of an "argument" and keep patting yourself on the back. You keep asking the same questions I already answered a dozen times, and then pretending I never did.

 

He's been doing bait & dismiss for 30+ pages now. Basic troll tactic.

Incredible, really, that this can go on for so long. And in a DE staff thread too.

[random__noob]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Well since we've already made it pretty clear that Inventory check activities are not good, there are only so many other things you can do.

Not quite true really. Shamelessly quoting myself here:

 

QUOTE: Food for thought: There is a quest system implemented into the game that doesnt try to bore us to death by saying "Do 10 nightmare missions, even though you by now have everything they are good for and it is just plain annoying when we make EVERY nightmare mission have Energy Drain Modifier"

Give us Riven-Like quest cards instead of this endurance test, stuff like "Kill 10 enemies (while wall running) (and while you only have a melee weapon equipped) (and while undetected). The higher your mastery, the more of these modifiers are added. Then allow us to reroll these quests by spending Nano Spores, Gallium and Alloy Plates if we think they suck. The more you played the game, the less patience and use you will have for stuff like the suggested 10 nightmare missions or 4 Vault runs. You think I enjoy stuffing another Overextended into my collection? Especially now since so many people were forced to do Vault runs, now EVERYBODY has them and they are absolutely useless?

Give us a combination-challenge system that we can reroll if we feel its ridiculous. Make the Quest difficulty depend on the mastery. If you think it is too hard, you can reroll the quest by using resources with ONE recepie keeping the mastery difficulty the same, one leveling the difficulty up and one leveling the difficulty down. Please use resources we HAVE for being patient with the game for many years, not resources you think are fancy and we think are garbage, like Arbitration Essence (its garbage and you know it)

[random__noob]

Duplicate post, couldnt find delete post button

Edited April 2, 2019 by random__noob

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2019-03-28 at 9:21 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

What do you do in WF if not accumulate power?

I'm not saying they should keep introducing more power creep, but when they do, the entire goal of the game is to get that thing.

I'm not against power fantasy, I agree that's important.  Equally important though is aspirational content with appropriate challenge level, of which warframe has none and the devs seem allergic to producing.  This is actually the thing that keeps holding the game back, the devs inability to cater to non casuals in any meaningful way.  Even when they try, they nerf it into the ground almost immediately (see exploiter orb, ESO, arbitrations, etc.) so that any newbstain can hack the content in under 100 hours.  It's obnoxious and it's really the reason I physically can't bring myself to play warframe anywhere near as much as I used to.  Until they manage to produce said content my account is basically in maintenance mode, meaning, i knock out weekly challenges in 2 hours and then do five minutes of dailies because I can't be bothered for anything else.  I can trade a 1000+p a day if I want, but why?  What's the point?  Why care?  There is nothing to aspire to and no meaningful challenge and when it comes to endless, the rewards actually get worse over time (after 40 min you cease to one shot, meaning drops come literally half as often and it only gets worse from there) and the main restriction of endless game mode is about whether or not you have to pee since in a squad it's dumb easy to cheese forever, and solo you can cheese for hours with unfun game play until you get hit by a random anything from behind you couldn't see coming and are 1 shotted.  Until they fix this the game basically is about earning more until you bore yourself to death, and that's my problem with introducing more power creep at this time.  Power creep needs to exist for the lifespan of a game, but DE has erred so far in the realm of power creep that any meaningful sense of gameplay is lost.  I can play with legit MR 18s who are not by any stretch "noobs" and still do 90% damage for the squad while barely working up the effort to care/try.  That's a problem in that at this point I should be operating at a different level of game play from them, let alone the MR 2 with his baby excal that quits every mission they join with me because they literally can't play the game and instead they do the loot walk until they get bored.  It's a problem.

[NezuHimeSama]

And I already explained that Nightwave is a combination of problems. Alert rewards were a thing you got once, and the majority of it was cosmetic. You're not free to do that now because if you skip 90% of weeks, you don't get anything, no matter how many hours you sink.

I've answered every question you've asked, usually immediately before you ask it again. You obviously don't want a conversation, so there's no point in pointing them out; you'll just ignore them and then ask again, pretending it was never answered.

[NezuHimeSama]

34 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm not against power fantasy, I agree that's important.  Equally important though is aspirational content with appropriate challenge level, of which warframe has none and the devs seem allergic to producing.  This is actually the thing that keeps holding the game back, the devs inability to cater to non casuals in any meaningful way.  Even when they try, they nerf it into the ground almost immediately (see exploiter orb, ESO, arbitrations, etc.) so that any newbstain can hack the content in under 100 hours.  It's obnoxious and it's really the reason I physically can't bring myself to play warframe anywhere near as much as I used to.  Until they manage to produce said content my account is basically in maintenance mode, meaning, i knock out weekly challenges in 2 hours and then do five minutes of dailies because I can't be bothered for anything else.  I can trade a 1000+p a day if I want, but why?  What's the point?  Why care?  There is nothing to aspire to and no meaningful challenge and when it comes to endless, the rewards actually get worse over time (after 40 min you cease to one shot, meaning drops come literally half as often and it only gets worse from there) and the main restriction of endless game mode is about whether or not you have to pee since in a squad it's dumb easy to cheese forever, and solo you can cheese for hours with unfun game play until you get hit by a random anything from behind you couldn't see coming and are 1 shotted.  Until they fix this the game basically is about earning more until you bore yourself to death, and that's my problem with introducing more power creep at this time.  Power creep needs to exist for the lifespan of a game, but DE has erred so far in the realm of power creep that any meaningful sense of gameplay is lost.  I can play with legit MR 18s who are not by any stretch "noobs" and still do 90% damage for the squad while barely working up the effort to care/try.  That's a problem in that at this point I should be operating at a different level of game play from them, let alone the MR 2 with his baby excal that quits every mission they join with me because they literally can't play the game and instead they do the loot walk until they get bored.  It's a problem.

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

Edited April 2, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

I don't disagree.

I guess you're right, as a new player the game can suck a lot because there is no real form of in game tutorial.

That said, i can sorta understand why, the obvious portion is that the more secretive success is, the more cash people waste on pointless things they don't need to buy, like base warframes and resources and stuff.

On the other hand I did make a newbie tutorial for my clan, and it works great, but it's also about 20 pages plus links to articles that are several pages.  Plus it needs constant maintenance, plus any real tutorial would likely hurt their partner program as well.

That said, while I get why, I also don't care and would rather the play experience be rewarding and feel good from beginning to whatever semblance of endgame might one day occur (which it won't).  

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, random__noob said:

Not quite true really. Shamelessly quoting myself here:

 

QUOTE: Food for thought: There is a quest system implemented into the game that doesnt try to bore us to death by saying "Do 10 nightmare missions, even though you by now have everything they are good for and it is just plain annoying when we make EVERY nightmare mission have Energy Drain Modifier"

Give us Riven-Like quest cards instead of this endurance test, stuff like "Kill 10 enemies (while wall running) (and while you only have a melee weapon equipped) (and while undetected). The higher your mastery, the more of these modifiers are added. Then allow us to reroll these quests by spending Nano Spores, Gallium and Alloy Plates if we think they suck. The more you played the game, the less patience and use you will have for stuff like the suggested 10 nightmare missions or 4 Vault runs. You think I enjoy stuffing another Overextended into my collection? Especially now since so many people were forced to do Vault runs, now EVERYBODY has them and they are absolutely useless?

Give us a combination-challenge system that we can reroll if we feel its ridiculous. Make the Quest difficulty depend on the mastery. If you think it is too hard, you can reroll the quest by using resources with ONE recepie keeping the mastery difficulty the same, one leveling the difficulty up and one leveling the difficulty down. Please use resources we HAVE for being patient with the game for many years, not resources you think are fancy and we think are garbage, like Arbitration Essence (its garbage and you know it)

It’s an interesting proposal but it would probably be really difficult to implement it from scratch in a reasonable amount of time. Also if I'm honest I haven't really bothered to unlock many rivens, particularly the ones that took me away from just playing the game. I generally saw them as just chores that had nothing to do with the game. 

Ironically it seems to me, as though many people who dislike the current system, seem to be upset that it's asking them to play the game. 

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm not against power fantasy, I agree that's important.  Equally important though is aspirational content with appropriate challenge level, of which warframe has none and the devs seem allergic to producing.  

=snip=

 So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

And I already explained that Nightwave is a combination of problems. Alert rewards were a thing you got once, and the majority of it was cosmetic. You're not free to do that now because if you skip 90% of weeks, you don't get anything, no matter how many hours you sink.

I've answered every question you've asked, usually immediately before you ask it again. You obviously don't want a conversation, so there's no point in pointing them out; you'll just ignore them and then ask again, pretending it was never answered.

Oh but we're free to skip it in the exact same way that we were to skip the alerts. The only consequence is that we won't get the rewards that we have not earned which you have to admit is perfectly fair. That's exactly what happened every time you skipped an alert. That's been explained to you, many times in this thread. Perhaps you just ignored it the way you did with all those alerts? 

Since you answered it, linking to the post or quoting it will be very easy to do. I'm sure you will find where you specified what in game activities you enjoy and are not "chores". (Which means that you didn't just say "I enjoy doing things that aren't the things that I decide are 'chores'".) 

It’s not even a tough question, so I'm sure it's easy to find the answer you gave or to just toss out a few examples. 

6 hours ago, Enialyx said:

 

He's been doing bait & dismiss for 30+ pages now. Basic troll tactic.

Incredible, really, that this can go on for so long. And in a DE staff thread too.

Yes incredible, because it's false. If that were remotely close to the truth then one of you would have simply just reported that long ago. Of course falsely accusing someone who is disagreeing in a civil and rational way, of trolling, etc., etc. is in itself a very toxic act. Might want to think about that. 

There's a reason why I quote what I am replying to, and give links to the previous posts I am referring to. I don't just claim that I have answered something, I show it. I've done the math repeatedly, and will probably do so again if there's a reason, or at least quote an earlier post with the information. I'm providing the evidence and my take on it, and invite people to disagree if they are able to do the same. 

Since they're claiming that they answered the simple question, but refusing to just quote it, that ought to suggest something to you. If you want to you can help them out by finding the answer you seem to believe that they gave, I'd be grateful to you. 

The question was what specific activities they enjoy. Remember, "Feedback is not just about saying what you dislike : it's also about suggesting improvements." So far they haven't shown what they enjoy, and the improvements they seem to have suggested seem to be contradictory with the rest of their posts. It's all been negatives, which is fine, but many of the claims that have been made by them, are blatantly false as has been shown repeatedly. Like the one above about not being free to skip the Nightwave the same way they skipped the majority of the alerts. 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 

[(PSN)Elloshin]

On 2019-04-01 at 6:32 AM, Marvelous_A said:

Surprised it actually took some players several weeks to find out

Not really, but the fear that it would be like this, was there along. (It is within the cries of the community, so much that they have made a is still going on with this many pages) But what ever. I am here for it to be better. But if it won't, I won't bother with it much, unto to the following seasons forward. I have mentioned in my first post here that I wouldn't say much about the content but more on how De would bring it out (or execution) before the second season hits, since this is the defining moment of the system before it becomes something that we, as players, can't voice much over with power without it being a group thing before changes can and will be implied. As the voice of many will only be the thing they will be listening to by then. 

De has not made it any better and has implemented several of rehashes into the first season. Something which, I, personally, find lacking. Because it does shows that either they had nothing to begin with or did not find their original ideas worthy of us as players. I know that they like to tailor the experience around players, but that is also what everything around us do. And they are failing miserably, to capture the attention of the majority. Because of the fatigue of the promise of the perfect world / experience. ^{Personally I deny everything that does this, and take several steps back whenever I feel like something I touch and wish to experience new and rough as it were, presenting me with this perfect thing of how I like it, without me telling it do so or even giving a hint of wanting / experience to do so.}

I also do understand that these were probably one of the few, where the feedback was the least negative in comparison to the first or some before. However, I still do believe that they should have gone with their original intent and release all weeks with the original challenges that they had in mind and changes it only after the second season,while implementing changes to other things around the core concept only. Like the episodes and wolf credits rewards and the Nightwave rep outside the Nightwave challenges. Or something like how Nightwave is able to take over like that, you know story and lore stuff. But with real impact into the world of Warframe. But it didn't, like all other empty syndicates. 

And we're here ...
In this moment, at this heap that has a high probability to get better within time oR get revamped into another thing that might be somewhat better because we'll have to live with it and will not be revisited for sometime. _{Looking at you, nyx and vauban}  Or degenerated to oblivion. ^{ember and mirage}

 

On 2019-04-01 at 9:03 AM, Tellakey said:

Quick suggestion. Nightwave's current formula relies on time-sinks under the misleading name of "challenges". I think the devs know full well that none of the challenges require any effort other than patience to complete. No skill, no expertise, etc... Here, then, a few suggestions that may tip the devs on what challenging tasks could (emphasis on could) look like. Let me first chalk away any presumption that I know best or that I necessarily think I'm right. This is merely my idea of challenge in Warframe, a game whose over-emphasis on power fantasy quashes any potential for actual challenge.

Here's the list, which I will supplement on the occasion:

• Headshot X enemies in a row from a wall-latch.
• Headshot X enemies with a bow from aim-glide.
• Kill X enemies with a combination of melee and gunplay over X amount of time.
• Kill X enemies while wall-running.
• Kill X enemies while jumping from wall to wall.
• Complete a spy mission without being detected once.
• Defeat Kela de Thaym without getting downed.
• Complete a capture mission in less than a minute.
• Reach 10k K-drive points without breaking the score.
• Complete a level 50+ mission with all 4 debuff keys equipped and without using Warframe abilities.
• Solo a hard boss fight.
• Complete this or that mission with no mods equipped.

I also point you to this thread, where other players list potential challenges in the same vein as I do.

The emphasis here, of course, is on short tasks that require player dexterity, timing, and the like. It demands effort as opposed to patience and does consume an entire day of consecutive gameplay to fulfill. Another way to put it is, instead of diverting a player's attention from what they want to focus on (go play spy even though you wanted to play survival) Nightwave should layer additional gameplay enhancement on top of pre-existing focus. For example, say you were focusing on a survival mission. Well now you have a new goal in said survival mission - hone your skills by wall-latching, wall-running, aim-gliding, etc... DE, demand the players to make use of your intricate mobility system! What's the point of aim-gliding if we're not asked to use it? Why even create wall-latching if there's no point behind it? You get the idea.

This, in my opinion, is what Nightwave challenge should look like.

So you want a kind of rivens unveiling without the benefits ...
This is was also mentioned as being on the very reasons by some what these challenges weren't challenges and if so would be the same as the rivens. There is a thin line between them. One I personally wish to not be crossed. But then again, this is me ofc.

(to the highlighted ones)
But I like the idea of using skill, timing, dexterity and the like. But outside of the many things that happen in the game, it is not always solid on the consistency to pull this off accurately. 
 

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Elloshin
reason

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

This is on a separate post because much of what you said is 100% valid. Unfortunately it's got nothing to do with nightwave. 

I honestly suggest that you repost it as a separate thread and include how you think that they would be able to fix the problems. 

Also remember that by definition stuff stops being novel after the first time you encounter it. A big part of the problem with the content going stale is that as a community we generally share our knowledge, with only a few examples of story related things that we try to keep under wraps and not spoil. So just like millions of monkeys hammering away at keyboards we tend to be able to produce the most improbable solutions to the puzzles of the new content in very short order. And then the information is relayed to every single person along with crib notes for the meta builds and tactics on day 1.

It's going to be really tough to combat that. 

[Klokwerkaos]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

I have stated as much several times.  It is an improvement overall, but that doesn't mean that there aren't significant issues within the system.

[NezuHimeSama]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It’s an interesting proposal but it would probably be really difficult to implement it from scratch in a reasonable amount of time. Also if I'm honest I haven't really bothered to unlock many rivens, particularly the ones that took me away from just playing the game. I generally saw them as just chores that had nothing to do with the game. 

Ironically it seems to me, as though many people who dislike the current system, seem to be upset that it's asking them to play the game. 

 So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

Oh but we're free to skip it in the exact same way that we were to skip the alerts. The only consequence is that we won't get the rewards that we have not earned which you have to admit is perfectly fair. That's exactly what happened every time you skipped an alert. That's been explained to you, many times in this thread. Perhaps you just ignored it the way you did with all those alerts? 

Since you answered it, linking to the post or quoting it will be very easy to do. I'm sure you will find where you specified what in game activities you enjoy and are not "chores". (Which means that you didn't just say "I enjoy doing things that aren't the things that I decide are 'chores'".) 

It’s not even a tough question, so I'm sure it's easy to find the answer you gave or to just toss out a few examples. 

Yes incredible, because it's false. If that were remotely close to the truth then one of you would have simply just reported that long ago. Of course falsely accusing someone who is disagreeing in a civil and rational way, of trolling, etc., etc. is in itself a very toxic act. Might want to think about that. 

There's a reason why I quote what I am replying to, and give links to the previous posts I am referring to. I don't just claim that I have answered something, I show it. I've done the math repeatedly, and will probably do so again if there's a reason, or at least quote an earlier post with the information. I'm providing the evidence and my take on it, and invite people to disagree if they are able to do the same. 

Since they're claiming that they answered the simple question, but refusing to just quote it, that ought to suggest something to you. If you want to you can help them out by finding the answer you seem to believe that they gave, I'd be grateful to you. 

The question was what specific activities they enjoy. Remember, "Feedback is not just about saying what you dislike : it's also about suggesting improvements." So far they haven't shown what they enjoy, and the improvements they seem to have suggested seem to be contradictory with the rest of their posts. It's all been negatives, which is fine, but many of the claims that have been made by them, are blatantly false as has been shown repeatedly. Like the one above about not being free to skip the Nightwave the same way they skipped the majority of the alerts. 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

Well then it looks like you've made a choice that you do want the rewards, so you are willing to do what it takes to get the rewards. That's nowhere near the same thing as being forced to do something.

It's the same choice that many of us made. Others chose to just skip the event because they didn't want the rewards, or perhaps because they want to not do the challenges more than they want the rewards. And again, that's fine. 

Regarding your claim to have answered to the question of what content we have that you actually enjoy, if that were remotely true, you would have been able to quote or link to it. I believe that as you've done so many times on this thread, you're making claims that are just patently false. Care to prove me wrong for a change? 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I have stated as much several times.  It is an improvement overall, but that doesn't mean that there aren't significant issues within the system.

Agreed, and as a first iteration, there is definitely room for improvement. 

[Tellakey]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Elloshin said:

Not really, but the fear that it would be like this, was there along. (It is within the cries of the community, so much that they have made a is still going on with this many pages) But what ever. I am here for it to be better. But if it won't, I won't bother with it much, unto to the following seasons forward. I have mentioned in my first post here that I wouldn't say much about the content but more on how De would bring it out (or execution) before the second season hits, since this is the defining moment of the system before it becomes something that we, as players, can't voice much over with power without it being a group thing before changes can and will be implied. As the voice of many will only be the thing they will be listening to by then. 

De has not made it any better and has implemented several of rehashes into the first season. Something which, I, personally, find lacking. Because it does shows that either they had nothing to begin with or did not find their original ideas worthy of us as players. I know that they like to tailor the experience around players, but that is also what everything around us do. And they are failing miserably, to capture the attention of the majority. Because of the fatigue of the promise of the perfect world / experience. ^{Personally I deny everything that does this, and take several steps back whenever I feel like something I touch and wish to experience new and rough as it were, presenting me with this perfect thing of how I like it, without me telling it do so or even giving a hint of wanting / experience to do so.}

I also do understand that these were probably one of the few, where the feedback was the least negative in comparison to the first or some before. However, I still do believe that they should have gone with their original intent and release all weeks with the original challenges that they had in mind and changes it only after the second season,while implementing changes to other things around the core concept only. Like the episodes and wolf credits rewards and the Nightwave rep outside the Nightwave challenges. Or something like how Nightwave is able to take over like that, you know story and lore stuff. But with real impact into the world of Warframe. But it didn't, like all other empty syndicates. 

And we're here ...
In this moment, at this heap that has a high probability to get better within time oR get revamped into another thing that might be somewhat better because we'll have to live with it and will not be revisited for sometime. _{Looking at you, nyx and vauban}  Or degenerated to oblivion. ^{ember and mirage}

 

So you want a kind of rivens unveiling without the benefits ...
This is was also mentioned as being on the very reasons by some what these challenges weren't challenges and if so would be the same as the rivens. There is a thin line between them. One I personally wish to not be crossed. But then again, this is me ofc.

(to the highlighted ones)
But I like the idea of using skill, timing, dexterity and the like. But outside of the many things that happen in the game, it is not always solid on the consistency to pull this off accurately. 
 

I should have clarified. I think these challenges should be accumulative as opposed to consequent. Meaning, the moment you, say headshot once from aim-glide, it fills the gauge even if you fall down. Sounds better?

[EiriMatsu]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

Alert Rewards vs (Nightwave Rewards):

• Cosmetic Weapon Skins (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Alternate Helment Blueprints (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Forma Blueprint (Improved: Forma Bundles)
• Auras (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Void Relics (Not Available)
• Vauban Components (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
• Any Resources (Not Available)
• 1 Kubrow Egg (Not Available)
• 5 Kavat Genetic Code (Not Available)
• 5 Synthula (Not Available)
• 80, 100, 150 Endo (Not Available)
• 20 Void Traces (Not Available)

So categorizing based on what I can assume by comparing the two: 

• Levels 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 13, 17, 21, 23, 26,  28, and 30 (12 levels) are cosmetic items.  Seeing as helmets and weapon skins are also irrelevant, I assume these don't matter.  Even if they did, they are season-specific cosmetics, so complaining about having to work for them is laughable at best.
• Levels 3, 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, 20, 24, 27, and all levels past 30 (9 levels) are items gained from alerts or the currency to get them.  Also irrelevant.
• Levels 14, 18, and 22 (3 levels) give weapon augments.  Seeing as these are mods just like auras, I will assume these are irrelevant as well.
• Levels 4 and 8 (2 levels) give 2 weapon slot and a warframe slot.
• Levels 15 and 19 (2 levels) give 20,000 Kuva.  This is a farmable resource.
• Level 25 gives an Arcane Energize.  This is a farmable item.
• Level 29 gives an Umbra Forma.

Ultimately, the only rewards worth mentioning from Nightwave when compared with alert is a measely two weapon slots and warframe slot, easily obtainable by running a few relics and selling some prime parts, and the umbra forma, an item that is meant to be incredibly hard to obtain and limited in availability.  In fact, the loss of alerts has cost us more rewards.  Ultimately sounds to me like people just want their new-meta Umbra Forma.

Please feel free to tell me what assumptions I made were too strong and the justification for including them as "relevant."

[NezuHimeSama]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well then it looks like you've made a choice that you do want the rewards, so you are willing to do what it takes to get the rewards. That's nowhere near the same thing as being forced to do something.

It's the same choice that many of us made. Others chose to just skip the event because they didn't want the rewards, or perhaps because they want to not do the challenges more than they want the rewards. And again, that's fine. 

Regarding your claim to have answered to the question of what content we have that you actually enjoy, if that were remotely true, you would have been able to quote or link to it. I believe that as you've done so many times on this thread, you're making claims that are just patently false. Care to prove me wrong for a change? 

 

Within the context of playing the game, it is; those rewards are very compelling, and missing out means limiting your arsenal. The choice essentially comes down to "play endgame, or quit endgame", and in a game about getting to and playing endgame, that's not too different from "play game or quit game".

I've repeated my answer several times and it was ignored in each case. I'm obviously not going to waste more time doing it again and again so you can keep whining that I didn't do the thing I did, and then pretend my not doing it again and again is somehow wrong.