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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Well going back to old alerts ain't exactly a good idea either....

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I like nightwave, the rewards are ok (armor/umbra). For the last year (except forutna release) i was just log in -> log out, now i logi in->do some nightwave challenges->log out.. Even in my dead clan some people started playing again, and once a week we did nightwave together.

I fought wolf few times, 3x today on hydron while lvling saryn/kitgun and dont understand why people saying that hes too tanky. In 4 random group he always died in ~3min If you have weapon that can kill stuff hes not a problem. Ofc hes way harder than stalker.. 3sec vs 3min, but stalker is just a sad joke.

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Posted (edited)

As a core concept, Nightwave is really fun.

In practise however, it is an attempt to force "brand loyalty" onto the player base. It creates exclusivity where there doesn't need to be exclusivity, just for the sake of pushing people to play your game more often. It's a thinly veiled attempt to punish players who are less active rather than reward players who are active. And as I said in my previous post: I hate forced brand loyalty anywhere, but I especially hate it in my games.

60% completion required was debunked by Reddit to actually be closer to 70% required. After missing three weeks due to real life circumstances, and this is after having done the first three weeks with relative excitement, Nightwave stopped being fun and became a chore. I had to log in every day, I had to do it, because I couldn't guarantee I'd have enough free time in my busy life, couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't get pulled away again. And what do you know; I was pulled away again, for another few weeks. By the time I came back, Warframe had turned into a chore that, until this point, it had never been. Until Nightwave, Warframe had always been a grindy game that had otherwise avoided FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out. I was never upset if I missed a Baro weekend, because Baro will always be back. I was never upset if I missed an alert, because the alert will always come up again. I was never upset if I missed the Acolytes or the Ghouls because they will come back, in the exact form they were in when they were introduced, with the same rewards that I can get in the same way. If I ran out of time, it didn't feel like a big deal. I didn't have to worry about if they'd ever show up again. I didn't have to worry about exclusivity.

Nightwave throws that out the window, and for what? It isn't a system that rewards players for logging in and doing missions because players who wanted to play Warframe would already do that, and you could have included some of these rewards in a myriad of different ways with less time gating as long as you made it worth doing. Do you know that if you actually fixed the Arbitrations, people would do them? So I don't want to hear pretend excuses of "We try other content, and you players don't use it!" and for all of their faults - they have many - at least Arbitrations aren't arbitrarily timed with their rewards. They're still going to be there for me to play and have fun with when you actually fix them. Nightwave season 1, though? The lack of Wolf spawning in my missions when I did get time to play? The Umbral forma I won't reach, that you chose to make unusually exclusive at the very back end of a season where you couldn't even correctly tell us what percentage of the content we'd have to do in order to achieve that rank? They're going to be gone after Season 1. Who knows if they'll be in Season 2? We don't, you won't tell us until you release it.

Nightwave as a concept is fantastic, it was a nice and refreshing take on the alerts system that made alert rewards feel a little more reachable. That was, until a few weeks passed when I couldn't play, and the burn out started to hit me, and I realised that you hadn't rewarded me for the weeks I had been able to play during this event, but you had instead punished me for the lack of activity on my part. "Oh, you didn't have time to do the Nightwaves? Well that's just too bad, guess you should be more active." And what's worse is that you encourage this mentality in your players, too. Look at these threads; they're a train wreck. You've turned your own community in on itself, and now people bicker and argue "Well I could manage to do it, why couldn't you?!" "Your argument is totally invalid because I work however many hours and could achieve it!" You didn't just punish people that couldn't meet your arbitrary standard of activity that you felt was acceptable to get a genuinely useful reward (like an Umbral Forma) but you even managed to turn other players on these people. Congratulations.

As I said before the other thread: I'm not even upset or angry. I am just disappointed. Slowly but surely, Warframe is now trying to compete with Destiny and Anthem not by being an actually better game, but instead by demanding more time from the players it has and by restricting the time they might have to play other games. Now that you have those players from those franchises, I suppose you have to keep them tied to this community, right? Can't just keep them here by making sure your game is still appealing and fun - the thing that drew many of us here in the first place. Instead just have to chain us down with FOMO grinds, make us worry about missing out on useful resources if we don't play to what DE considers to be an acceptably active standard. And as such, ironically... it's made me turn off Warframe entirely and I'm not really that excited for updates any more, the way I used to be.

Edited by Airyllish
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17 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Suggestions:

  • GET RID OF THE SEASON TIME LIMIT 
  • separate challenges/rewards for early-, middle-game (what alerts where before) from end-game challenges/rewards.

Yes, removing the time limit would be the saving grace.
Tons of posts on this thread highlight the problems it causes.
Remove it and boil it down to daily/weekly challenges which keep coming like the alerts did.

14 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

1) Terrible suggestion as far as I can see. People have repeatedly explained that having it never end, means never getting the next nightwave and the rewards that come with it. You would shackle all of us who complete the event, to let people who may never finish, have a chance to finish at their own pace? That's a terrible thing to do. 

Never getting the next nightwave sounds like a blessing. 😉
Allowing players to play at their own pace would be a terrible thing? Oh my.

About "never getting the next rewards" ... of course if you remove the time limit you have to change the way rewards are distributed.
It could easily be a reputation system like everywhere else in the game, just on a longer time scale since it would be tied to continuous challenges.
Or, as I suggested a few pages back, high end rewards could be given for truely challenging weeklies, which could even be MR gated (without a time limit, challenges being locked for younger players would not be an issue). They could be as rare as DE wants them to be.
 

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41 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

Yes, removing the time limit would be the saving grace.
Tons of posts on this thread highlight the problems it causes.
Remove it and boil it down to daily/weekly challenges which keep coming like the alerts did.

Never getting the next nightwave sounds like a blessing. 😉
Allowing players to play at their own pace would be a terrible thing? Oh my.

About "never getting the next rewards" ... of course if you remove the time limit you have to change the way rewards are distributed.
It could easily be a reputation system like everywhere else in the game, just on a longer time scale since it would be tied to continuous challenges.
Or, as I suggested a few pages back, high end rewards could be given for truely challenging weeklies, which could even be MR gated (without a time limit, challenges being locked for younger players would not be an issue). They could be as rare as DE wants them to be.
 

Do you understand that MR is a meaningless system? The only thing that it truly measures is "how many MR tests did you pass". 

I think that Steve indicated that what they're seeing is that the nightwave system is doing what it was meant to do. It's gotten more people to engage with warframe instead of "log in, collect daily, log out". And we know that there are plans for at least one more season. 

And here's the thing that is most important, there's never been an event that lasted "forever". The alerts never waited for you to decide months later that you should get the reward from December's prime time alerts. But for the people who missed the chance the first time, it rolled around again and they got another shot at it. So there is no issue to solve for those who don't claim all of the rewards. 

Play at your own pace, by all means. But nobody is entitled to claim the rewards that they didn't earn. 

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Posted (edited)
  • The ayatans arent honestly bad, and they help people make p by selling them for like 20p unfilled. It's not hard to hunt for ayatans by just nuking the entire map of their boxes.
  • Survival challenges were fun the first time, but a chore the second.... and 3rd.... etc. giving us cool bonus rewards for going 60m in any game mode seems better than asking us to do it or remain behind on an event if we choose not to.
  • Friend/clan challenges, I play with my friend 100% of the time I play warframe, I can't have an opinion on this really except thanks for the free standing.

All this coming from a player that loves the nightwave system. it gives me and my friend a lot to do when we want to play, and the missions can be completed rather quickly if you play for more than an hour a day. That said: making it easier than needing about 60 (70%) participation would be helpful for everyone, and making the wolf creds not "precious" would also be good. I hate that I have to spend my wolf creds on nitain because there's no other reasonable way to get them. 

Edited by Zyga21
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14 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do you understand that MR is a meaningless system? The only thing that it truly measures is "how many MR tests did you pass". 

Well, it`s used to gate weapons right now, it could as well be used to differentiate between challenges meant for low/mid/high players.
It`s fair to assume a new player is lower than MR5, a player who has played for some month around MR10, and a vet at least MR14.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I think that Steve indicated that what they're seeing is that the nightwave system is doing what it was meant to do.

I didn`t hear about that, but I have no doubt it worked to engage players for the time being.
Myself, I`ve probably spent twice the time on Warframe than I normaly would. I also never had less fun with it.
A short boost in generated playtime isn`t worth anything if you lose players in the long run.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And here's the thing that is most important, there's never been an event that lasted "forever". The alerts never waited for you ...

A looping cycle of daily/weekly events would do the exact same thing, call it "forever" or not.
You have to see that there is a difference between hourly Alerts, daily/weekly Challenges, and a 10 week event with a hard end.

32 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Play at your own pace, by all means. But nobody is entitled to claim the rewards that they didn't earn. 

I don`t think I have seen a single post asking for that.
Everyone is discussing the format, not asking for free rewards.
(Sidenote, I am rank 28 right now, with enough left to do this week for 29. So it`s not about that.)
 

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Posted (edited)

When NW was first introduced I was really excited. This felt fresh and interesting. It gave me something to do. Now, having ground all the way to the wolf armor set, I can still say that overall I think Nightwave is a very positive addition to the game, but it needs some tweaking. I enjoyed the story and the rewards, especially the Umbral Forma! Man, that is awesome! And rightfully, we only get one this time. I will say with confidence that NW is a HUGE improvement to the old alert system. It keeps me logging in and gives me a reason to do things I wouldn't normally do. The old alerts were totally dead for me.

Those of you complaining, please give it a rest! We are spoiled on Warframe. I think the devs do an excellent job of providing free content. There are other games that just downright punish you. I feel lucky to be walking away from this NW series with an umbra forma, 40k kuva, and 6 built forma. My time feels well spent. Nothing I've experience in warfame has left me feeling used or cheated, which is something I can't say for other games. I am very grateful to DE for their hard work, how they respond to the community, their creativity, and the awesome game that we all get to experience and co-create.

So, after finishing the Nightwave series, here is my personal feedback, in order of importance.

1. Let us choose our rewards. Similar to the login reward system, let us have three options at various tiers of value. Need a lot of Kuva, but don't need forma? No problem! It kind of sucks to earn rewards that you don't need.

2. Give us more time to complete the series. If I am on an extended vacation or if I have a family emergency I will be missing out on NW rewards. Granted, that should be the least of my problems, but lets not punish players for having a real life. Games should be fun, not work. Let us play the game at our own pace and allow for several weeks of inactivity. You should still reward those who have more time to spend on the game, but lets minimize players feeling left out, frustrated, and cheated out of exclusive rewards. The implications of this might just be 1 or 2 additional weeks for the series.

3. After series completion, let us continue to choose our rewards based on the aforementioned tier system. This essentially means that the reward progression is indefinite. Wolf creds are only useful to a point, especially for those of us who already have all of the items in the store. A small amount of wolf creds just doesn't feel satisfying. For me. Kuva, built forma, and rare arcanes are much more needed. When i got the armor set, I kinda stopped paying attention to NW acts. Giving players choices is a good thing.

4. Wolf spawn rates still feel pretty low. I didn't even see the wolf until very late in the series, and so far I have encountered only 4 spawns. One of which was right when my squad was extracting! Wolf troll FTW!! So, maybe we could purchase wolf beacons from the wolf cred store, or maybe when you capture fugitives there is a chance for the wolf to show up to protect them. I wish that killing the wolf provided at least 1k standing since it is such a grind to find and defeat him. All that work and luck and just a crappy drop really feels lame.

5. It would be nice to have a little more variety in the reward progression. Much of the cosmetic stuff felt like dead rewards to me. I'm just not into sigils and emotes. Armor sets, sure... but the rest tend to be disappointments. But that's just me. That's one reason why I suggest that you let us choose our rewards. Boosters, resources (10 Orokin cells?), even credits (maybe 3mil or so) are all useful and practical rewards that I would feel good about getting. What about deluxe skins (as a choice)? I don't own them all yet and that would be pretty cool. The options here are endless and the more the better. I would suggest adding so many different rewards that one couldn't get them all before the series was over, thereby motivating us to look forward to the next series.

6. Daily and weekly acts could be more varied and interesting. Overall I was pretty happy with the challenges, but they became repetitive. I think there might be some merit in discussing the possibility of the acts being a modular choice. Each act could have 2 or 3 modes that would satisfy it. I think this would alleviate some of the griping. In other words, there are multiple paths to rewards, instead of everything being "mandatory". "Forcing" players to play stealth when that isn't what they enjoy for example. I admit that it would be a challenge to present this in such a way that wasn't too messy or confusing, but I think it's worth some exploration. Lets have a brainstorm on new NW acts!!

7. As others have said, I don't think the "with friends/clanmates" condition is very helpful. 90% of the time, those friends are just going to be strangers you find on recruiting channel. It's an extra step that doesn't effectively address the issue you are targeting. I don't really have a great solution other than to simple remove the extra condition. It feels cumbersome. I think if you want to encourage clan collaboration there has to be other ways. How about providing different passive buffs if you are playing with a friend or clanmate? I don't know.

8. I would have liked to see even more focus on the story in the acts and rewards. Just simple things, or little details. Maybe the armor set has some special effect where fugitives or low level grineer fight for you instead. Maybe it boosts the damage of grineer weapons? Perhaps there is a secret message from the wolf located in the Saturn Six Scene. How about an act of "defeat the wolf using only melee weapons in under 5 minutes"  Wolf beacons for wolf creds I think are a must!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by TenTonneSkeleton
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3 hours ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

1. Let us choose our rewards. Similar to the login reward system, let us have three options at various tiers of value. Need a lot of Kuva, but don't need forma? No problem! It kind of sucks to earn rewards that you don't need.

 

 

 

 

I like that. If the rewards were bound to a Standings-Shop, the fear of missing out would be reduced. You want only the umbra forma, and you dont have enough time in the 10 weeks period to get that deep into the reward levels? Go ahead and grab it first, will cost you a significant amount of standing, but you can get that item and then cherrypick what you want next, if you have the time to play that much. And you would stress out a lot less. I played many hours for stuff like a wolf salute I will likely NEVER use even once.

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Just reached Nightwave Rank 30 - Finally! 
My one word feeling on nightwave: Work.
Nightwave feels like work. Work is not fun. I HATE having that fear-of-missing-out clinging in the back of my mind, forcing me to an extent to complete the nightwave acts. As soon as you're forced to complete something it's not as fun anymore.

My recommendation to change it: 

1. Give us two options per nightwave mission: ex. "Survive 60 minutes in survival with a friend OR Survive 40 minutes in a survival alone" This would be my ideal system. Give us an alternative for those really annoying missions (I despise the "Find all caches in Sabotage missions" mission)

2. Completely remove the prestige tier rewards. Give us an x amount of wolf creds for every tier, and allow us to purchase any and all rewards right from the get-go. So if someone only wants the wolf armor, they can do 2 tiers of nightwave, buy the armor and forget about it. 

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Posted (edited)

I think they could have had the Wolf spawn on a specific planet during each weekly set of Challenges. For one week they could have had him spawn A LOT on Saturn, the next it would be a different planet. Maybe kinda have it fit his journey through the story until he's on the Planet with Alad V and all that. So that way people who didn't wanna deal with him, knew how to avoid him, and players who wanted to farm him, knew where to go. Throw out the BS drop table (the stupid mods), make him spawn often on an assigned planet, and call it a day. Perhaps make his parts buy-able with the wolf currency or something? I am sure there's so many good ideas in this thread by now, but I wanted to throw in my voice too. 

I love you DE, but I think you might've messed this one up a little bit.

Edited by Echo
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54 minutes ago, Echo said:

I think they could have had the Wolf spawn on a specific planet during each weekly set of Challenges. For one week they could have had him spawn A LOT on Saturn, the next it would be a different planet. Maybe kinda have it fit his journey through the story until he's on the Planet with Alad V and all that. So that way people who didn't wanna deal with him, knew how to avoid him, and players who wanted to farm him, knew where to go. Throw out the BS drop table (the stupid mods), make him spawn often on an assigned planet, and call it a day.

^This. And also ^this again. Would've made so much more sense and be better for every player in this game.

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9 hours ago, D1sTrust said:

Well, it`s used to gate weapons right now, it could as well be used to differentiate between challenges meant for low/mid/high players.
It`s fair to assume a new player is lower than MR5, a player who has played for some month around MR10, and a vet at least MR14.

Is it really safe to assume that? One of the things that I won't forget is seeing a post made by a player with a MR3 account asking if there's any way to bypass the mastery requirements for the junction, because they were doing a speed run. 

There's gating but again that only goes to about the mid teens. MR 5's aren't restricted from any game modes. They're granted access to everything outside of a few frames, weapons and rivens. 

Quote

I didn`t hear about that, but I have no doubt it worked to engage players for the time being.
Myself, I`ve probably spent twice the time on Warframe than I normaly would. I also never had less fun with it.
A short boost in generated playtime isn`t worth anything if you lose players in the long run.

And inventing numbers for "potential losses" doesn't mean that the numbers will actually go that way. Steve mentioned how much hate he's seeing coming from aspects of NW. But he said that in spite of that the numbers were very positive. 

Quote

A looping cycle of daily/weekly events would do the exact same thing, call it "forever" or not.
You have to see that there is a difference between hourly Alerts, daily/weekly Challenges, and a 10 week event with a hard end.

Yes, I do see that. However I don't see any issue with a 10 week event that we only need to complete 60-65 % of to earn all of the rewards. As the event currently stands, we could complete tier 30 with no elite challenges at all, or could finish with a month to spare by doing 4 elite challenges along with the dailies and weeklies. 

Quote

I don`t think I have seen a single post asking for that.
Everyone is discussing the format, not asking for free rewards.
(Sidenote, I am rank 28 right now, with enough left to do this week for 29. So it`s not about that.)
 

I have seen several requests for pay2win. The thread is over 100 pages long. People asked for it from the start. 

People also complain about how the format means not being able to miss a couple of weeks, despite many people having had a month to spare. 

The format gives us ample time to proceed at a leisurely pace, score the majority of our points on whatever planet we want, to pick and choose which challenges suit us. 

Again it's a simple equation, complete challenges, earn standing, earn 300k standing during the event, get all the tiers of rewards. If someone can't or won't do that, then there's no reasonable expectation of a "right" to be rewarded. Win or lose, we'll all have another chance after the event ends when the next one starts. 👍

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You know you screwed up when McGamerCZ does a Nightwave review... and then uses POE footage while talking about Warframe.

 

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The Problem i have with this Nightwave thing is that its another syndicate grind more or less but you are also limited to the amount of rep ur getting, its just a disguised syndicate. another problem with it is how its time gated and your major progress in it lies in weekly challenges which i miss out on a lot due to having to travel a lot, i only get like 1 day a week if that and have missed out on multiple weeks of it. I have barely even reached half way and im apparently expected to get to rank 30. I'm at the point in the game were something like the umbra forma is my only sort of progression for me and its locked behind a grind wall i have to be stupid active to achieve. its as if i am to be punished because im not a child anymore and don't have time in my life to actually play the game, iv been playing the game since pretty much release on both PC and when Xbox came out i moved to that and iv never felt well so hopeless that the sense of progression i can do is time gated syndicate that resets itself, its as if the hardcore community is only what the game is about at this point and sure maybe please them but throwing out a bunch of ur players because they have lives and cant dedicate themselves to your game anymore is rude.

 

The only thing i guess i can suggest would be:

- Allow progress to be carried over into next season of it and until one get to rank 30 in it they cannot progress to next season or something

- Allow us to use our wolf credits to buy levels something like i guess 10 per level

- Alternatively let us just buy the rewards we wanted or give us a single pick of what we wanted from all of the rewards at the end of the season that we didn't reach, this i believe would allow people like me that have barely any time to play what we wanted even if it was one item some sort of closure

I use to be a hardcore player playing every day nearly but now that i am out of school and have a life i feel like i am just getting punished digging my own hole and being buried and forgotten about in it

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7 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

You know you screwed up when McGamerCZ does a Nightwave review... and then uses POE footage while talking about Warframe.

 

Honestly I don't blame him. I usually log on and play casually but Nightwave is becoming more and more like a second job. It just burns you out. 

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Dear DE my feedback on Nightwave after finishing it: Nightwave totally burnt me out on this game. I finished that series and immediately shut down the game and haven't touched it since then. The challenges are boring and repetitive as #*!% and it just totally killed my fun in that game. Additionally playing on a regular basis a huge amount of days for one week with the pressure to do so was just a pain in the ass instead of fun..for example the 5x Sortie missions...Hell I don't have enough spare time to play 5 days in one week so I sometimes really had to cut short on another end like time with friends and family to finish that challenges 😕 It was a feeling over the past weeks like I had to finish a project for my job instead of some relaxing hours on my couch to calm down after a hard business day. Is this really what DE wanted their playerbase to go through with Nightwave? Seriously hope they bring big changes for Series 2. Otherwise I might be done with this game.

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I would like to see Kavat genetic codes added as a Cred Offering. I think the Cred Offerings in general aren't great. I havn't been playing on PC very long and even I don't have anything I really want to spend my Wolf Creds on apart from Nitain Extracts.  

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I heard that Wolf Credits will expire at the end of the Nightwave series. Please don't do this. If I don't have enough Wolf Credits for an Orokin Catalyst or Reactor, I will have to waste them on something I don't want and I don't think I am alone on this. Veteran players don't need anymore Nitain so having to spend Wolf Credits on Nitain is a waste, but new/late players may not get enough credits for the potatoes and won't be able to reliably get them. I have never heard of anyone liking the expiration feature on Argon Crystals so please don't put an expiration on Wolf Credits.

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Posted (edited)
7 часов назад, NytmareChaos сказал:

Veteran players don't need anymore Nitain

inb4 a new weapon/warframe needs 500 nitain to craft

Edited by Darth_Predator
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16 minutes ago, Darth_Predator said:

inb4 a new weapon/warframe needs 500 nitain to craft

The new Omni-Aura Forma from Arbitrations needs Nitain to craft. I don't think that prediction is too far off from reality.

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Thats a bit from me

  • Missions should definitely be making more sense.
  • I would change the linear progression system to the tree branch progression system. like imagine a tree and as you beat challenges they become tougher.
  • I also would remove the weekly limit which actually makes people bounded to the game with force & chains instead of loyalty. First, it might seem good but it could really damage the game itself at its core. Instead, I would put community goals to unlock the next tier challenges. And not remove old ones so if people miss it for a long time they still can grind it up with their hard work through "meaningful incremental difficulty missions".

Here i draw an example

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Posted (edited)

Just remove nightwaves and replace them with the old alerts, just as easily and as fast as you replaced old alerts with the nightwaves.

you did not let both systems to be up and running for a while, just so to see flaws and stuff, coz you dropped it out there, by removing the old alerts at the same time and it fails spectacularly to its purpose.

well, kudos on that, now bring back the old nice alerts, and remove the boredwaves.

 

 

Edited by No1Eye
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Here's my feedback for Nightwave as i've experienced it so far. I've done everything the game has to offer and own most things farmable. So my perspective is based on that.

The Good

  • There's actual progression and you're not bound by the mercy of RNG.
  • Some of the challenges you'll complete simply by playing the game. The "Complete X mobile defence" weekly is usually completed just by doing sorties over the week.
  • For the first time, as far as I know, in the history of the game you could farm for slots.
  • The rewards up until rank 30 are pretty good.

 

The Bad

  • Nightwave made the game kind of feel like a second job for me, which is a horrible thing. You certainly don't need to complete every challenge. But for a lot of people it's a psychological thing, and the need to check all the boxes is strong in many of us. Myself included.
  • Why are we forced to go to specific places? Let us choose where to complete X bounties, mines, fish and so on.
  • All challenges involving using forma, sculptures and guilding are bad. Why are we forced us to waste time and resources on this?
  • The time you get for completing the challenges is too short. This cause a lot of stress for players who can't play every day. I can do that, but not everybody have that luxury.
  • At the end of the season it will be impossible for a lot of people to spend all their creds. Yes, they'll be converted to credits but if that's a 1 to 1 ratio that's pretty bad considering the time investment in getting them.
  • There will be less aura's in circulation. With the alert system a lot of people would get extra aura's whenever one was available and the mission was easy. Only to later give it to a friend or clanmate or sell it. I doubt that many people will use their hard earned creds on spare aura's.
  • Getting 15 creds for every 10'000 points you earn after reaching rank 30 is kind of insulting.
  • Like 2
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