Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[Redfeather75]

Thank you for taking the time to make this topic, you will be returned to the multiplayer lobby.

[UnderRevision]

Overall, I like the idea of Nightwave.  Having a rotating crop of challenges that let me not bother for a day or two without missing my shot is a big upgrade to alerts in terms of convenience.  However, I do have a few thoughts.

I'll echo a lot of what others have been saying about hour long missions being over the top and the friend requirements being irritating for dedicated solo players.  I also agree with some of the sentiments about it being a little too aimed at more experienced players to the detriment of newer ones.  For that last issue I suggest a redistribution of the standing between challenge tiers.  Currently we have one daily at a time while the rest are "regular" or elite challenges.  It might be better to get rid of some of the mid tier challenges and add an equivalent standing amount of daily challenges in their place.  For example, one 3,000 reputation challenge becomes three 1,000 reputation challenges that are something that anyone at any experience level can sink their teeth into.

Oh, and a small quality of life change, maybe adjust Nora's voice lines to be a bit more appropriate to the scale of the task accomplished.  Save the big dramatic ones for the elite challenges, that sort of thing.  I like Nora but she doesn't have quite enough voice lines to stop from getting repetitive pretty quickly.

[Latiac]

Remove restrictions of friends, and increase the standing you get for doing a 60 minute survival mission. 5K is a terrible amount for doing it.

Perhaps reduce time, I've seen alot of people running into issues where someone has to go 40 minutes into the survival.

[wanning]

I don't enjoy battle passes, they make it feel like you can never take a break. I know mathematically I can miss so many acts but that doesn't stop the feeling that I have to do every act that pops.

I don't like feeling like I will miss out on a lot of content if I have take a break or go on vacation.

Nightwave system is kind of reminding me of the Living Story from Guild Wars 2 and I really hated the Living Story because as soon as I took a break from GW2, I knew I would probably never go back to the game because I would've missed out on so much story content, it's been at least 3 years since I took that break.

 

If Nightwave series were always available and we could choose which to do and work on it at our own pace it'd be fine, it'd be even better if the acts were just always up when you activate one of the Nightwave series. So, when series 2 comes, you could have the choice to do series 1 and all 10 weeks of acts for series 1 are available for you to finish series 1 when you want and series 2 does weekly updates on acts, acts would accumulate for series 2 as it goes so that if you started series 2 while it was live in the third week, you would have three weeks worth of acts to use to catch up with. Just make it so you can only have 1 Nightwave active at a time and allow you to switch which series you do. This would probably be a lot of work but I think this is the option I prefer, just keep series 1 creds to series 1 store. This would also allow someone to work on a past series they might not have finished if they complete all of teh current series available acts and they could just switch back to the current series when they were done. This would probably be quite a bit of work to create systems that would allow this but I think this sort of system where you can activate what would otherwise be timed exclusives is the option I prefer for solving the issues I have with Nightwave in it's current form.

[RobWasHere]

Fully equipped to get as much capsules as possible and bam, no LS capsules at all after 50m mark. This sucks.

[_Shikeishu_]

Hi and Wall of text alert.

I'm quite new, since i started on switch release. I'm now MR10 and on pluto, and i feel strongly enough about nightwave that i needed to give my feedback...

(Oh,and I'm french so sorry about my english, i'll do my best 😛)

Some comparison with fortnite incoming, because Nightwave is in a way very similar to the battle pass system, both in presentation and in effect on the player. I know, differents game and all, but bear with me !

In both game's "season", you see tantalizing rewards, and challenges to get them. This encourage people to play, so this is good! But there is some crucial differences in my opinion :

1- Nightwave challenge don't stay every week. So if you come in too late, sorry, you won't be able to finish... but you will still see for a long time the things you won't get on your mission screen. This is bad design in my opinion, because it can go against the initial objective and can make you give up on playing. If challenges could stay (and you said in a recent stream you had all challenge active at the same time on dev mode, so it probably is possible !), it would let people play at their own leisure during the 10 weeks, and maybe even progress in the game up to the point they would be able to do the sortie / eidolon challenge for example. It would also alleviate the "ticking clock of doom" effect, which, sure, can cause short term engagement but burn out people in the long term

2- Nightwave challenge require you to have advanced in the game up until a certain point, or to have good enough frame/weapons, depending on challenge. Compare to fortnite : since there is no progression between games, challenges can be done by anyone if they are dedicated. Even if they started yesterday ! This ties to my next point :

3- Nightwave challenge rewards are unfair. Elite weeklies give much more than normal weeklies, which give more than dailies. This is a bit of a good thing (difficulty and challenge are fun etc...) but this is also a big problem because, if you want to complete Nighwave, you NEED 30k a week. If you fall behind, you will also be in the demoralizing situation of untainable rewards on your star chart (see 1). 

What's more, the "60% challenge needed" is actually "60% reputation needed". With 3 elite weeklies at 5k, that mean you need to do some elite / farm convicts, or you have already failed. So if you can't do the elite challenge, you NEED to do everything else including dailies if you want to complete the event. You NEED to login quite a lot instead of playing regulary but as you want ! 

So no holidays or day off warframe for you. We went from "snooze you loose" to "not enough warframe, no reward for you".  Is that really better? This is especially true if you are a newer player, who DE actualy probably want to stay and not burn out of the game... Yes, you do not have to finish it all, but let's be honest : the battle pass design is made to make you feel you are missing out (that's why fornite does it) and gamers often tend to have a completionist side.

In my opinion, all challenge should give the same rewards, so that no matter what type of challenge you choose to do during the event, you would be able to get to 30. BUT, in order to reward end game player doing everything, most of the post-30 ranks giving wolf cred should be atainable only by those dedicated enough. So you get more stuff (nitain, orokin reactor/catalyst etc) if you are dedicated, but the rest of us don't feel like we are missing on unique stuff.

TLDR :
1- Let challenge stack all though the 10 week, to promote playing at your own pace and let newer player catch up
2- Give same rep reward for all challenges, but balance it so that doing all elite challenge get you most ot the post-30 wolf cred prestige ranks.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

It was fun. So many new players are just soft. Really sad.

[Chroia]

21 hours ago, Voltage said:

I have since learned that proper grind in Warframe is what keeps the game engaging, and although nothing is perfect, less grind will ultimately lead to less gameplay and more content drought.

I agree with this.
There are 2 motivators to do a thing, intrinsic (you like doing the thing) and extrinsic (you like what doing the thing will get you).
Warframe's combat paradigm, by design (for better or worse) doesn't lend itself to meaningful engagements. Combat can be enjoyable, but it's not really interesting.
As such, Warframe leans a lot on the extrinsic 'Look! Shinies!' motivator to get people playing. And to keep them playing, you need either lots of short term goals, or a few long term goals.

On the other hand, a long term goal needs to feel achievable, or it'll just generate frustration.
This is made worse when the goal requires a standalone grind (read: you're grinding this and only this, no other progress besides exp and maybe common drops). 

I suspect that that's the issue with e.g. Focus, OG Zephyr, Vauban P Oxium farm, Hema, etc.
Your passive "progress" (i.e. rate of resource acquisition) is minuscule relative to the requirement, and the hugely-more-lucrative dedicated activity is/was both standalone, meaning you couldn't really interweave progressing other things while doing it (besides exp), and it was mindnumbingly tedious. (I say this as a person who farmed all of those things at their initial costs.)
Example: Farming Mutagen Samples in the Derelict wasn't too terrible as incidental farming while you were trying for the Octavia Neuroptics in ODS. Once you were done with that, though...

Grinding is, by definition, not fun, because your motivation for doing it isn't the intrinsic fun, it's the extrinsic reward - and for that to be fun, it needs to be perceived as worthwhile. Put another way: If your motivation in doing a thing is the reward, your motivation is directly correlated with how rewarding you perceive it to be.

This is what I like about Nightwave, incidentally: it adds another layer of reward to otherwise insufficiently rewarding activities.

 

P.S.
How the heck do you always get such wordy posts in as first post?  o.O
I mean, kudos for it, but... yikes.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

It would be neat if DE encouraged PvP gameplay somehow. As it currently stands, players like me have to choose between progressing in nightwave or do the content we enjoy and miss out on its rewards, which actually can discourage players from doing pvp even more than the current system already doea given how unrewarding conclave is for how challenging it can get.

Also, if you read Legacy's comment (and if i'm reading it right) it's looking for an alternative to get the same amount of standing, something along the lines of "play 1 hour of survival with a friend OR play 30 minutes of conclave", so there's no reason for the anti pvp players to get triggered if this got added other than their own childishness, which is just a personal issue at that point.

Also, quoting @[DE]Bear's words in OP:

"In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall."

Yet PvP players, are clearly being left out of this whole system.

Warframe is and has always been a primarily PvE focused game. The Conclave is an imbalanced, hamfisted, tacked on feature that DE just threw into the game in a vain attempt to appease the PvP crowd that prefer to slaughter each other instead.

This game was never built with PvP in mind and it shows when not only DE have left Conclave to rot, but the vast majority of players, including myself, wouldn't touch it with a mile long cattle prod.

Besides. There are better PvP F2P games out there. Paladins. Fortnite. Apex Legends. (Just to name a few.)

Pick your poison.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (NSW)Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[EquinoxPrime]

Did this one with a clanmate and two randoms from recruitment. Granted, our life support dropped down to 18% around the 50 minute mark but with a little coordination we pulled through and got it back up to 80-90%. Our team was Equinox/Nekros/Harrow/Saryn.

Personally, I had a lot of fun with this one but I can understand how it could be frustrating for others. 🤔

Edited March 5, 2019 by EquinoxPrime

[Cuchullin]

22 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.

 

22 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark

Speaking as a casual gamer who generally doesn't go for endurance runs I don't mind having the hour long content but I dislike the friend requirement for these missions as while I can do get people onto the friend list to do missions I don't want to be forced to. As for wolf creds in the reward pool I think having the escaped convicts occasionally drop them along with various mods and/or weapon parts might be a good idea. If i remember correctly they were a prison work force that basically manufactured stuff for the grinneer so I don't think it would be unreasonable for prison style shiv blades, kitgun style secondaries or early grinneer primary weapons as well as an assortment of mod drops with the wolf creds being a prison currency. At least that seems logical to be rather then having a limited amount of creds locked in small amounts behind set stages.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Cuchullin

[Stormdragon]

56 minutes ago, (NSW)Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Warframe is and has always been a primarily PvE focused game.

Yet has had PvP as an option ever since 2013, way before it even was added to consoles.

It isn't unbalanced, people claim it is before ever giving it a try simoply because they are usually matched with far more skilled players and there is no way to balance skill.

Quote

This game was never built with PvP in mind and it shows when not only DE have left Conclave to rot, but the vast majority of players, including myself, wouldn't touch it with a mile long cattle prod.

DE is currently focused on other projects, if they didn't want a PvP scene in warframe, conclave would have been removed long ago and they wouldn't be working on the release of stalker mode or willing to develop some PvPvE races in the future. This shows that DE knows that PvP offers far more replayability than PvE for a way smaller resource investment.

Quote

Besides. There are better PvP F2P games out there. Paladins. Fortnite. Apex Legends. (Just to name a few.)

None of the rest of PvP F2P games plays like warframe, the game i enjoy and support. Also, you don't get to tell me what to do on my free time, no need to become that toxic only because of a request that you could easily ignore if it ever got added.

 

[Akko_Cavendish]

I don't expect them to design some good challenges when they can't even design some good warframes (I think).

[Gene_Freak]

I'm reading through the thread and I'm seeing a lot of constructive ideas from what I've read I think the universal narrative is that there's not enough ways to gain standing and cred currently in Nightwave. This is having consequences across the entire game:

-Certain game modes have become unplayable. Players that would otherwise not want to engage with Syndicate missions, Onslaught runs or Eidolon hunts are doing so strictly for the challenge, and the players that do enjoy that content suffer as a result (thanks to speedrunners in Syndicate, 3-and-done players in Onslaught and leeches on hunts)

-New players are given very few options for gaining standing, and since wolf cred is tied strictly to standing ranks they've either got to queue for things they aren't ready for (adding to the frustration) or go without basic auras and blueprints. And if you're a returning player whose missed just a couple weeks, you might never be able to make meaningful progress.

-Veterans are hammering themselves against content they don't especially enjoy due to "fear of missing out" and are feeling the burnout as a result. While a lot of the challenges that don't appeal to some do appeal to others, the margins are so razor-thin that most end up doing them all regardless.

-That said, the difficulty / length / social requirements of some of these challenges isn't as much of an issue as the scarcity of the challenges themselves. A lot of posters enjoyed the hour survival, though I found it tedious. A lot of posters are upset about the perfect conservations, though I did them in a brief and pleasant jaunt. I did them both, though, because I don't know what's coming around the corner and my options are limited.

-Standing is what's valuable to old players, cred is what's valuable to new players. Paradoxically, cred is far harder to earn and walled off behind standing gains. With limited options for standing, cred gated behind specific syndicate levels and a weekly rotation in the shop, new players are more handicapped than they've ever been. The alert system might've left the fate of newbies to the luck of the draw, but at least the deck wasn't explicitly stacked against them.

A lot of great solutions are coming up, but the common ones that seem the most realistic to execute seem to fall into these categories:

-More challenges available simultaneously: Having Tridolon captures, clan/friend prerequisites or hour long survivals wouldn't be as much of an issue to people if they were able to do other challenges that appealed more to them. You're never going to make everyone totally happy, that's just not realistic, but having a greater variety of regular and elite challenges would make people feel less pigeonholed. You could have a limit on the amount of standing that can be gained from a given week's challenge set if you're worried about people blowing through too much of the Syndicate before the event is up. (note: limiting this standing gain based on MR, however, would be a mistake as it would only serve to hurt the newest players)

-Repayable challenge weeks: Being able to go back and do a missed week would relieve a huge amount of stress many players are feeling. Let players select what "Week" they're working on - if each week had a standing cap, current players could take another shot at that one that was giving them trouble, at the expense of not gaining standing for the current week while they do so. Plus returning players could still catch up, they'd just have to work a little harder to make up for the missed dailies. 

-Bring Back Alerts tm: There's no reason these two systems can't coexist, and in fact Nightwave could give the alerts the context they've always lacked. If you want people getting their rewards from the cred shop and not random chance, have alerts provide a lot of cred and a little standing, as a newbie-friendly counterpart to the challenges which provide a lot of standing and a little cred.

Looking forward to lots more great feedback and, hopefully, some cool future changes as a result 😄

[Alpha_Tango]

Looking back, i don't know if the enjoyment after finishing 60mins kuva came from the relief of finally going through the hurdle or because it is the first time I did it. But if asked to do it again? I think the time spent doing it is a bit much. Fun erodes quickly with repetition and time. 

I never did conservation before, but i had fun when I tried it. One perfect catch after another. This I can do in small amounts. Like 3 waves of ESO or 20 mins of arbitration going after ayatans and even a session of the Index to get 10 rare mod drops. None of them I intentionally go for before wolf happened. So DE clearly wants us to try eveeything. IMO thirty minutes like the GoL might be the right lenght for any weekly challenge.

[Tails_lol]

i think the alert system should be back but it should give nightwave standing or tokens . it will be the best of both worlds. should add credits and resources too in rewards

[(PSN)Hemolytica]

There's an easy fix for this, let us choose the elite bounties that we want.  This way if you like endurance or speed runs, you can pick those.  Hell let conclave fans have a bounty too. 

[Sagittarix]

I predict that DE will extend the duration of Wolf for 1 or 2 weeks as an apology for some of the more "experimental" challenges.

Basically as an innovation cost for doing the first battle pass ever and not knowing how the community will react.

[Akko_Cavendish]

I doubt it since it's a weekly mission they'll run out of ideas soon.

[vivecuervo7]

I couldn't help but imagine doing something along the lines of "Play for a total of 30 minutes in survival after passing 30:00" being a bit more forgiving to internet issues etc? Also, who'd really want to do 3x40 minute runs over one hour? They'd pretty much get their wish, without burning people who are ever so close to making it and something goes wrong.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

5 hours ago, Leon-Darkheart said:

answer 3 questions for yourself:

 

- Am i a low rank player and/or new to warframe?

- Do i have a job or do i work at least over 6+ hours a day?

- Do i have a girlfriend, wife or family?

 

if all your answers were NO to this, you might can see where i am going with this...

-no

-yes

-yes 

didnt have much of an issue doing it when i get home from work , i typically play maybe 1-3 hours at night then do some housework and make dinner 

[Cubewano]

9 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Well I can tell you that right now it is causing at least my personal meltdown.

A bit offtopic, but I have recently picked up vermintide 2 on sale. Pretty good game all around, would recommend if you are into fantasy and l4d style horde shooters with basic character and loot progression. Anyway, while playing it, a random thought has crossed my mind - here, in 1 hour, I get to complete several missions with varying enemies, randomized encounters, and different surroundings, and I am rewarded with more loot for my character and levels. Or I could be farming this stupid challenge, and after 1 hour of killing the same dudes on the same tileset, with only progression being slight increase in their damage, armor and hp (no new enemies, no minibosses, nothing interesting), I get a bit of yet another rep standing and a bit of kuva (for like 2-3 rerolls).

But that is a different game, so let's take an example from warframe. In 1 hour, I could:

1) Run several different fissures (non-endless ones).

2) Do a sortie (if lucky with mission types, some may take more time).

3) Kill an orb.

4) If the time is right, do a trycap.

5) Do an arbitration for one rotation.

By the end, I would get a bunch of prime parts for ducats or plat, get a sortie reward, get some endo from the arbitration, get some focus and potentially good arcanes from Trydolon, get vox solaris standing, solaris united standing and credits, all while doing different mission types, fighting vastly different enemies and seeing different locations.

Or I could sit in the effin Kuva fortress for 1 hour killing slowly scaling grineer... I hope I demonstrated my point clearly enough.

 

Then do that, you don't need complete every single task if you don't want ta. 

[IzzyTH-I51]

TL:DR; I personally like being challenged, and make an additional daily mission for 15 wolf cred to match the old systems amount of possible nitian in a day. other than that, doing good.

 

as an endurance runner... of 3+ solo hours of derelict survival and similar endless missions... the challenge's thus far haven't taken me more than a couple hours to complete all of, its not exactly a weekly thing if it takes a couple minutes to do. now i know everyone is having a hard time with these challenges, and i can get that. but i personally, just me, not saying to push it on anyone else, i personally would like a challenge that's so difficult it can last all week, instead of an hour.

not lasting a week because there are time walls like with Simaris, but are just tremendous undertakings, like i dunno, kill number of enemies, collect amount of resources... I'm not sure how i could be challenged more, but i wouldn't mind it being longer, not, time wise just, more? like, kill 10,000 enemies cumulatively over the week, this'd be done in a few hours with a Saryn in sanctuary onslaught, but it wouldn't be done instantly.

alternatively I'd like a constant mission, instead of a daily mission, like 500 standing for doing basic thing, once completed resets to another mission worth 500, so i can constantly build standing, however the standing isn't my problem here, I'm fine with standing being locked behind this time wall of waiting for the weekly challenges to make a real difference, what I'm not fine with is the wolf cred for what used to be easier to get with the alert system. you may be able to get 5 nitian in a bundle, which would have taken 20 hours at minimum without missing an alert, but if we're doing one nitian a day its feels like you'd be getting more. with the current system even after 2 weeks you only have a handful of nitian. maybe a daily mission that gives wolf cred as a reward so you can get some of the smaller old alert items faster, a reward that's not tied to the standing and progression of nightwave but purely to collecting the old alert items. daily mission capture 3 saturn six fugitives reward 15 wolf cred, got 5 nitian in a 24 hour period, matching what was the same amount as the old system for the amount of nitian you can get.

 

 

[dany2945]

the dificulty is literally non existing for an experienced player the 60 minute survival it's a joke, the problem is finding a friend or clan mate to play for that long the thing with "play with a friend" should be removed no question,the other ones with complet 9 bounties or play 9 invation mission are boring as hell...those kinds with bounties should be somthing like 2 bounties of the highest difficulty, 4 bounties or the ones with perfect capturs...give ma a brake if you want me to do a perfect capture make me do one not 4 of them

The system is too boring for experienced players and too overwhelming for new ones the challanges should be on a tier base low,medium,high,elite difficulty and should always be completed on Solo mode Elite players should play 1 hard mission (level 100+ at least) instead of 9 pointless ones like the bounties or invasions...oh yea and about the 1h survival cause i saw someone whining above saying that the time should be cumulative...basically defeting the point of staying until the enemies get high level that's not valid, those 1h survival or 60 waves defens are also boring in the first 45 minutes...my sugestion is to make it 20 minutes but change the levels starting at level 80-90-100 or even higher and going on from there, it's not new players friendly i know but that's the point isn't

TLDR

- bump up the levels

-reduce the grinde (less missions,less minutes in survival,less statues to max,less mods to collect,less animals to catch)

-remove the "play with a friend" all missions should be possible solo

(i did some opsyes with my english,sorry for that)

 

[dany2945]

i may have posted multiple times, please don't give me a warrning or a ban because the servers don't want to work as intended