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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Posted (edited)

A good way to improve the Nightwave system would be to change the frequency of how creds are obtained. 

Currently you need 30k Nightwave rep to get 50 wolf creds. A new player will take longer to rank up to rank 3 compared to others who played longer. 

My idea is to make it so every rank up you get wolf creds but at a reduced amount. 

For example going off of the 50 every 3 rank ups, instead have it so you get 15 for rank 1, 15 for rank 2, and 20 for rank 3. And this process repeats from 4-6 7-9 and etc.

This change won't have a negative impact on veterans because they'll receive the same amount as they do now, but a new player could have better access to Nitain, auras, and all that other stuff they need with out having to grind out 30k rep and instead only grinding out 10k rep.

 

And you could replace the cred rank up reward slots with something else, I don't have an idea of what because everyone has their own opinion on what is a good reward and what isn't.

Edited by Arkypo
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On 2019-03-05 at 6:47 AM, [DE]Bear said:

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

  • Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
  • Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
  • Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe". 

It should be relieved immediately.

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I am MR24 and a few of my clanmates are MR26. This is the first update we felt like had higher level content for us. Up until now everything required a lot of no skill grinding and mash a button play style. We typically run shortie as solo players. The endurance runs were the first time we all got online and spent 10 minutes rebuilding frames and planning strategies for a squad. 

On the other end my son is a MR12 who thinks the lesion is the greatest weapon ever. He used his 50 wolf creds to buy nitain that he never would have been online to catch an alert for. 15 nitain took him a few days to earn instead of weeks. 

Please don't lower the bar because people are complaining. Someone isn't capable of completing a challenge then they need to get better and work towards it. Don't take that away from those of us who are good enough.

Don't go back to the alert system. It penalizes people like my son who can't get online constantly throughout the day. 

Overall I love it. The only thing I would change is more things for us high-level MR players to spend our creds on.

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Remove the online requirements from all console challenges, increase Wolf's spawn rate the amount of play time i have without seeing him once is plainly ridiculous, change the event scheduling from fixed to whenever a player finishes all the ranks,

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Posted (edited)

To me it seems like most of the problems arise from the lack of variety and choice.
I think it would be beneficial to give more challenges to chose from.
As an example, you can give 15-20 different weekly challenges and 7-10 elites, but introduce a cap on the amount that can be completed in a week (current one is ok - 7 weekly , 3 elite).
This will give players more options to chose from on how they want to play and get those challenges complited. Optimize, even, when the challenges coincide in their objectives (like this week survival elites)

Moreover, currently system seems a bit top-heavy in regards of rep gained from elites

 

Edited by lighthoof
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Posted (edited)

My two cents:

- keep the old alert system for mods, potatoes, nitain

- keep nightwave as it is for *all* cosmetic/optional stuff (helmets, sigils, decorations, etc.)

 

...and putting umbra forma in a time-limited event it was not a great idea IMO.

 

Edited by (PS4)nating51
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2x Xp (or any +%) - Party with friends

Normal XP - Solo

I'm begging! 

60min Kuva SUV was COOL, but the last 30min my "friend" started to complain. All my fun died!

(sorry, bad english. I understand almost everthing, but i can't write well). 

 

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The things that I personally believe should be changed/added are as follows. My ideas are by no means are perfect but still worth saying.

  • More daily tasks - This is so that there is more tasks that can be done through out the week, preferably simple tasks like capture, kill and etc. so that the new players can have things they can do more. This will also give some more things to do for people who finished their available tasks for the week
  • Wolf credits should be earned from the tasks - The way wolf credits are given are bad for both new players and some of the older players. The new players don't really get to the credits easily which makes the new players take even longer time to get something from Nora than the old alert system. For some older players on the other hand, wasted reward since a lot of people are probably not interested in getting rewards they don't need or already have.
  • Getting rid of Friends & Clan related tasks - Not everyone's friends are always available. Many clans are also solo clans where it's literally just one guy doing everything on his own. Adding someone that you'll just unfriend after a single mission is ridiculous.
  • Add alternatives to boring tasks - I'm specifically referring to 1 Hour Kuva, it is just really long and very little rewarding. I say that the solution to this is that it should simply count towards the task after reaching 20 Minutes. This will allow people to just do stuff like 20 20 20 or 20 40 or 30 30 and etc. This will help people with limited time. However, since DE wants to give reasons to do really long runs I propose that there should be a bonus for those who do the whole task in 1 sitting. ex: instead of 5000 they'll get 10000 standing. Essentially the people that don't do in 1 sitting can just get 5000 since it's probably worth that much (or maybe 3000 instead) but the people that do finish in 1 sitting and considering how hard the whole task is 10000 is definitely worth making.
  • Non-Daily tasks shouldn't expire - This is so that people who don't have too much time again, they'll be able to catch up on older tasks while also making tasks like 10 Syndicate missions or 9 Invasions less of a pain since you can do them on your own pace while not losing out on too much.

My suggestions are by no means perfect but I do hope that these get some consideration.

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Posted (edited)

Reposting this here because someone mentioned I should post it in the feedback thread. Some suggestions (full thread here):

1. Bring back alerts (for the new players)

a) Maybe it could have 4 nitain alerts per day, with each lasting 3-6 hours. That would allow people to come on and actually catch the nitain. Same for Vauban parts/etc. 

2. Change Nightwave. Some suggestions include:

a) Removing the 10 week time limit and making it something that players can slowly do on their own time like login rewards. Maybe make new challenges appear after each rankup, so that those who want to no-life it can do that if they want to. If we go this route, I don't even care if there are 60 min Kuva survivals with a friend because I'll know that I can do that at my own pace. What's really killer in the current Nightwave is the time limit pressure. 

b) Making the challenges substantially less time consuming. Very few people want to do 10 animal captures or 10 syndicate missions or 9 Cetus bounties or 60 min Kuva survivals if they've already done it all. Or if they simply don't find the content very interesting and would rather play something else they find fun out of all the other things you can do in Warframe. But 1 Kuva survival mission? Sure, I'd do that for 5 min. Or 1 syndicate mission? Doesn't sound too bad. Gives us as players more time to do things we actually want to do. 

c) Giving a broader range of challenges so players can pick and choose what they want to do. I'm sure no one will be complaining if we could pick to do 5 capture missions instead of a 60 min Kuva survival if we wanted to. 

d) Making challenges more about gameplay rather than game modes. I personally liked the "kill x amount of enemies with Ice/Blast/etc damage," "kill x amounts of enemies while sliding" etc. Those were fun, and I could passively do it in my regular gameplay rather than need to go out of my way to play a game mode I dislike. And, it actually got me to bring out some old guns or switch out mods that I hadn't touched in years. 

e) 

7 minutes ago, Shanoo said:

Another approach might be to keep reputation and creds until the event cycles back in and finish it the next time it appears. At least I hope events will eventually return another time, since that way new players would have a chance to complete them later, when they're more experienced and geared for it.

f) Other suggestions?

Nightwave has potential—there's no doubt to that. But it could be a lot better, and I hope you all at DE will consider our suggestions. 

Edited by eksby
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15 minutes ago, eksby said:

What's really killer in the current Nightwave is the time limit pressure. 

^ This, absolutely. If the NW wouldn't be a time limit event, probably people could accept even the friends challenge, filling aytans or the 1hr kuva survival...

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One thing I find particularly terrible is that some alt helmets in reality cost more wolf credits than what is displayed. Why? They cost nitain to craft. Yes, I know you can get nitain in other ways but  that was also the case before nightwave. 

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BACKGROUND

MR 26, almost 5k hours in mission, completely maxed out all challenges on nightwave at present, waiting on the timer.

GENERAL FEEDBACK

Nightwave is a comprehensive overhaul to alerts and it's pretty great overall. 

The incentive to have higher end rewards is pretty great, since it gives vets something to do.  Umbral forma and cosmetics are spot on.  Win on that call.

Allowing people to get ancient cosmetics (alt helms) and basics like nitain are great.  Big ups on including slots also, I don't need them but new players do, and frankly I'm a little jealous they get them... "all these young whippersnappers don't know back in my day we had to grind a million hours for enough plat to get a slot, now get off my lawn!" 😛  All in all though, good move, super big ups on that.  You finally made this game legit FTP for realsies and mega applause for finally making that move.  With that said, my criticisms are few, but I think, important to consider...

FEEDBACK ABOUT NEW PLAYERS

I think it would be good is to bring back the non purchaseable with wolf cred resource bundle alerts for 2 reasons.

Firstly if players can see them (except on luna) but can't do them (because they are greyed out) this provides incentive to progress the star chart long before they are ready to touch arbitration, and that's super important because there are a lot of players (probably most even) that just skip stuff not realizing why completing it is important) and then they find out about arbitration after second dream or so, and have 2 weeks worth of missions to catch up on since they can't solo carry a 4 man for most missions in under three minutes at that stage of their progression.

Additionally, having these other piles of resources (rubedo, oxium, etc.) really really really helps players along the way to build warframes they want (which is THE MAJOR PRIORITY early on), and while I know you don't want too fast progression, my gaming experience of over three decades says most players will quit out of frustration for feeling they aren't progressing at a rate that simply "feels good".  There are enough frames and things to do in the game now where we really shouldn't be locking stuff behind artificial grind walls so much as when the game was new, especially stuff that a vet player can farm 100x as much or more in the same amount of time (and they don't even need it unless maybe they are building a Moon clan dojo with max deco).  A new player has about 3k hours of content ahead of them, if the grind wall vs reward feels like it did when we had a handful of warframes it feels like "I'll never complete anything in this game, so why should I try? I might as well quit".  That's a player retention problem.  Letting players get a bundle of 400 rubedo makes very little difference in anything since nobody with any brains is going to pay plat for it, if they know anything from gaming, they'll join a clan and farm it with the clan members that can earn 200x as much together as they can solo.  The plat bundles for resources are simply there for SUPER whales that just feel like being super lazy (or if you want to go the predatory route, players that don't know better) that's it and I'll bet a real dollar your data shows this.  Nobody else in their right mind will buy them since the value vs price is insane.   If I got 100x as much oxium, I'd think about it for dojo deco, but otherwise, nah, not at that price, and I have plat coming out of my ears.  For a new player they are saving for the warframe that they think looks the coolest, not alloy plate.

QoL FEEDBACK

For QoL I would say it needs to be a priority that we can mute the radio updates.  We get a flash indicator on screen, hearing her talk every five minutes is repetitive and annoying and it doesn't serve the purpose lotus does (to tell you about your mission).  Since it doesn't serve a gameplay function, like ordis we need to be able to mute her outside of cut scenes.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that's sick of her voice already, and we supposedly have her in our ear... forever?  I would stab myself in the ears with rusty scissors if I have do deal with this for a solid year, I'm already sick of the audio updates that are meaningless dribble.  If she said something pertinent to the game like "hey there are some dudes that spawned, you should go whack them" or whatever, that would be useful, but instead she's just encouraging us like we're basically five year olds that need constant encouragement to continue and it's super annoying.

VETERAN FEEDBACK

Umbral forma are super cool... but the grindwall is out of whack.  I know we're looking at power creep but it's already here.  Lets consider real quick the math on this:

Your'e MR 26.  You have every frame.

In reality you use maybe 5-10 frames.  at a minimum, to min/max your builds you need 3 forma each, assuming we're not using them on weapons for sacrificial mods and only on frames (because holy crap does that skyrocket the need for them).  So lets say 5 frames to be generous to the devs.  Lets also assume we have god tier rivens and functionally unlimited plat at endgame (about 20-50k ish in reserve if we liquidate unnecessary stuff).

So at MR 26 with 20K+ plat available and infinite resources and god tier everything... to work just our frames that we use up we need 15 of these bad boys, and lets say 2 more for one beast level melee weapon.  So 17 umbral forma minimum, with a reasonable cap at 32 for 10 frames and one melee.  If we look at the grind wall, which is time gated by the way, we're looking at about maybe 3 months per umbral forma because at super max level there is realistically nothing in nightwave that will challenge us because there is nothing in the game that will challenge us (including wolf, since he's just a bullet sponge since he can't hit hard enough to put a dent in any of my builds and that just means he takes 30 seconds to kill instead of .01 seconds like most mobs that also can't hurt us).  At that rate we're looking at a minimum of 51 months (over 4 years) as a min maxed uber kill everything character just to min/max our gear we use most.  Now lets also consider the soft cap of 96 months (8 years)... for a top end player with everything already available to them and functionally infinite resources just to get their fav stuff min/maxed.

This is an atrocious grind wall that is worse than comparable to the korean mmos of yesteryear and that's a really bad look, nothing should take that long to grind for.  And if you're not a player that already has everything and the ability to complete every challenge with ease and ultra efficiency?  Well, forget about it, you might as well quit because that wall will feel insurmountable (player retention problem again).

Additionally, the grind wall isn't worth it because any semblance of challenge is long since destroyed long before you ever get to that level.  Round about MR 18 most things in the game will be trivial, if not all.  So, there is no dire incentive, and even if there was... lets pretend for half a second that DE made a proper bit of aspirational content built and balanced around players min/maxing within one year, we need to grind for a year to be ready to play it?  No thank you.  Statistically though, won't happen because it has never happened and I'm pretty sure at this point DE just doesn't ever care to think about that based on what we saw last year with the notion of Tridolons, Orbs, SO, ESO and Arbitration, all of which were touted as "challenging content for vets" literally none of which weren't trivialized entirely within the first week of release.  So either DE just can't manage to do this, or more likely, they don't care to, since they are clearly talented developers and they would rather focus on literally anything else (like revamping the lighting in vallis for hundredth time.  We get it Steve, but the game looks good bro, move on to stuff that matters pls k thanks!).

For a realistic grind wall I'd like to see an umbral forma no more than 2 weeks minimum apart, since as an endgame player, that's really the only motivation outside of cosmetics, which are fine at 3 months... and all for an upgrade I don't realistically need to trounce the game into oblivion since I can already do that without it.  2 weeks makes it something worth working towards, but not so easy to destroy.  I can however, offer, that it might make sense to make these have a reserve in that you can add more challenges to make them earnable every two weeks, but only if you can complete every challenge and more of them, that seems reasonable (no more than +100% challenges though).  Any more than that and you're dragging it out too long or adding to much play time vs reward.

So what does that mean... it means that aspiring to spend 4 years or even 8, which, by all reasonable estimation warframe, assuming it's continued success, should be an entirely different game by then) to min max this stuff is entirely unreasonable and is disincentivised because even if we did, we wouldn't be receiving any sort of comparable challenge.  Worse yet, not counting sacrificial mods, umbral mods are entirely defensive, and sacrificial really only matters if you're going up against sentients when you consider clear speed because they don't add anything meaningful for general clear speed, just defensive, and when you're at that level, defensive mods matter in 1 and only 1 situation, endless missions for S&G's which are actually counterproductive in terms of rewards because you can get more assets, resources etc. by farming lower level stuff quicker, than beating on a level 500 with your god tier boomstick since there is no such thing as scaling rewards (booooooo!).

So, there's the math.  1-4 years, not to min max all gear, just to min max the gear you use most, IF AND ONLY IF you are already done with all other content in the game and are super OP with functionally infinite resources.

Not only does this disincentivise umbral forma for OP players, but imagine how new players will feel when they figure this math out and they are still years away from reaching the point where completing all weekly challenges is even possible for them?

You guys... I love DE, I love warframe.  You're really doing a disservice to your fans with this kind of grindwall and lack of appropriate challenge to compensate as well.

The problem remains the same as it always has.  Lack of appropriate aspirational content for the rewards we already have, as well as scaling rewards.

CLOSING REMARKS

People often give DE a free pass on this because they were a small indie developer (not anymore) and the game is FTP, but I think the time for that is over.   It's been six years warframe has been growing and succeeding.  It's really time you guys put in some appropriate aspirational content, and an umbral forma isn't content, it's a reward, it's a tool, and a tool that we not only don't really need (even though admittedly I'm excited to get my first one) because there is literally no content to support it.

Lets cover simple game design of challenge vs reward.  As the player continues to invest, the rewards need to scale, and with the reward scaling, the challenge too, must scale, otherwise people get unhappy and leave the game.  If you didn't learn that from the steep drop off from after the first few weeks of fortuna, I don't know that you ever will, because people have been saying this same old thing since the beginning of the game.

I know Steve goes to conferences and such about game development... but lets learn from actual examples that succeeded.

When was WoW at it's peak?  WotLK.  Why?  Because challenge and reward scaled effectively.  After that it never once hit the same kind of growth, it got bigger, but slower, and that kept dropping off until today where the project is on life support and literally nobody cares about WoW anymore because they stopped making challenging and appropriately scaling content in favor of a larger audience, which was a quick step forward, but ultimately, was ten steps backwards.

Who else is comparable to Warframe?  One example of a thriving success comes to mind, that's honestly killing it lately, and that's Path of Exile.  Also FTP, games as a service, and frankly, the gameplay experience blows compared to warframe (it's a top down looter like Diablo 2 back in the day, only better) and their team is smaller, so why are they killing it so hard?  It comes down to one thing, reward VS challenge loop.  They don't need 3D experiences and fast paced action packed bullet jumping because the game play FEELS REWARDING vs constant challenge, and not at just the beginning of the game, all the way through to the end game content, not to mention they were smart enough to put seasons into their game which resets the economy which makes it easier on them, something I don't think warframe could do without a top down revamp.  It's not that PoE doesn't have issues, they do, but side by side, the experience of the game is something I'm comfortable labeling objectively better, even though warframe crushes POE on game mechanics and graphics.  In PoE, you're always learning and adapting and being rewarded for that.  In warframe you're learning and adapting till second dream, and then your hit by a giant grindwall for loot/rewards that is increasingly trivial as you play.

A year, even for most hardcore players, is too long to earn something in a game, unless that thing is "aspirational content" of which warframe still has none.  And for a casual player, the kind that thrive on the mobile market and EA FIFA/MADDEN releases, forget about it.  Bring down the grind wall on this, first, and second, develop some content that is an actual challenge for endgame players.

Consider this:  You have a community organization team.  You have a team of partners that are already min/maxed endgame viable experts on your game.

Get them to NDA this project for a game mode, put 4 teams of 4 in, see how they do after 2 hours with a mini boss.  Give them 2 hours a day with the content by matching them up with who has similar schedules.  If they are struggling to complete it and failing but still making progress after a week, that's where the damage numbers need to be, and the attack speed, and health, and timing for telegraphed attacks for bosses.  If they ace it in the first hour, you did it wrong and you need to rebalance.  Then go ahead and throw in more content so they only saw a piece of it and THEN release it (because they need to be surprised when they play it on steam for the first time too).  If you do that and listen in on their head sets and see what strategies they come up with and how they try to do things, I think that could really give you a ton of insight into how to manage making legit aspirational content, and then you probably wouldn't feel so much need to gate umbral forma and everything else behind grindwalls that are functionally impossible for a new player to consider.

This is legit the main issue with the game at the moment.  More than anything else this affects your bottom dollar with player retention.

TL;DR:

-Bringing back bulk resource alerts for new players is good.

-Need to mute radio in mission as QoL

-Umbral forma grind is out of whack based on maths and needs less grind wall, or alternately, an additional source (plat, rare boss drop, etc.)

-Umbral forma necessitates power creep, which FURTHER necessitates aspirational content, please build some for really realsies.

BONUS ADDITIONAL PERSISTENT ISSUES:

-No collission on ANY vallis deco or plaguestar statue topper (though I see you finally fixed the newest grey statue deco, +1 there)

-Grindwall on vallis dojo (4 and 5 tier) colors  (and tower white) is still obscene (can maths that for you too if you like)

-Not a fan of destroying combo counter damage output moved to power attack, will make 1000s of plat worth of melee rivens functionally useless (if you think the push back on the kohm rivens was bad, wait till you try and destroy our endgame zaw rivens since melee is functionally more useful meta), mega unhappy there.  Would be happier if you could scale it somewhat while building up power attack.  Not to mention if you end up nerfing that (as well as melee range, GRUMBLE) all you're doing is killing your new melee system and making everyone shift to guns.  People use melee because it's functionally better at clear speed.  When that stops they will shift to what is better at clear speed, and that will be guns and your new melee system will go the way of charged attacks, stamina and other cut content.  SIMPLE LESSON:  Players will choose the path of least resistance 99/100 times, and if there is not enough or far too much resistance on that path, they will go play something else.

-No aspirational content is a forever problem for warframe that hurts player retention.  Qualifier: If your player community can trivialize it (see orb solo fights under 3 min routine) within a week of release, it's not genuine aspirational content.

-Inbox players after they complete second dream to tell them to complete star chart for arbitration.

-Kill your chat mods and guides programs, start from scratch with functional guidelines (you know why they need to go, but I'm not sure if you're aware that this is becoming a ballooning PR issue that they still aren't gone after all this time that is negatively impacting the reputation of DE as a whole, since it's not your fault for what they do, but it is your fault they are still there, and it's spreading to more and more media sources.  At this point it's less of a "is this nepotism?" to "why hasn't DE done something, STILL?").  I understand someone's feelings may get hurt, but this is getting to the point where it's going to start noticeably affecting the reputation of the company on a wider scale, especially as the company continues to grow larger and see more success (more haters and eyes at attention).  If it's not dealt with better than literally everything you've done to date, don't think EA or someone else won't buy an article in IGN to do a hit job on warframe.  As their games like Anthem continue to struggle, they will be looking for scapegoats.  I'm not saying that as any sort of threat, but as a word to the wise.  Most AAA publishers aren't full of nice and kind Canadian folk, they are full of wealthy oligarchs from the US or similarly cut throat chinese businessmen, and those aren't nice people (speaking as an American with a degree in business).  If you let this continue to slide, it's going to bite you eventually, not just with player outrage either.

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It's actually quite sad that last devstream was made known that there are players who pleaded for no 'missions with friends/clanmates' and yet this week we even saw not 1 but 2 1hr-long survival missions with friends/clanmates.

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Posted (edited)

1. Bring back the alerts system for some stuff like Auras, Mods, Helmets, Potatoes, etc but make them last longer (12 or more hours) so that everyone has the time to play them (if you think that the timing is an issue).

2. Change the alert system: Perhaps in the same alert you could choose at the end which Aura or helmet or potato to get from a list of offerings, much like the relics missions have.

3. Everytime you level up a rank at Nightwave you should get the "special reward" and an fixed (or scaling with the rank) amount of Wolf Creds, so that its easier for a player to get more stuff from the Cred Market (like nitains which seems to be the resource most players need and worried about). You can now remove the Creds from Rank up rewards.

4. Appearance of Wolf of Saturn Six, completely random, not dropping anything guaranteed, I believe needs addressing this issue. I encountered him only once so far, managed to successfully kill him, got just a Molten Impact and that's all. Put him on a node to fight him every time we level up or make him come after us every time we capture some of his associates (Group of fugitives) - still this is a bit random tbh.

5. Time limited (one time only?) event? I worry that there could be a time that I can't play and achieve all the tiers for a reason (like family vacations or heavy working hours) so I will miss the opportunity to get that "season's rewards". For a completionist - collectionist like me this could be a game breaker.

6. This event is forcing you to do things you sometimes don't like. The answer don't do them is not viable if there is no alternative for collecting the needed standings or rewards. Some of the challenges are time consuming, uninterested for some of us (9 invasions, 10 syndicates, 10 perfect scans, etc) or even MR, equipment or Quest related locked for some of the (new) players (Eidolons, Sorties, Simaris or Fortuna scans, etc). Personally I don't have any real issue so far, yet some missions are boring repeating them (of course they are Weekly mostly so presumably I - we - can make them in more than one days).

Edited by (PS4)Nek_Food
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Posted (edited)

Generally I do like the system. The hydrolyst challenge for instance was one that pushed me and friends to try for new content, didn't make it in time, but it was fun to give it a try and missing the one challenge isn't detrimental to anything but my completionist heart. I like that challenges pushes you to content and things you might normally not do as much of, while also being sized in such a way that you don't have to burn a full week on it if you want to just get your arcs over and done with. Weekly acts should not take longer to complete simply because it'd end up being like playing to a manual of "this week you do X or you'll miss out", we already have events which push you to that sort of grind. Keep the time requirement the same and it's good.

In regards to the stated observations...

  • Ayatans being too RNG dependant: Ayatans are very obtainable now... if you're fortunate enough to already have finished your star chart and that's the problem really, new players will be so far off from being able to easily do this challenge that it's not really fair. If we could taxi to arbitrations then it'd be different but still, it's a very far in-the-future lock to put on a random challenge. Lowering the amount of ayatans to slot could make it work (2?), that way it'd be more realistic to do even from randomly found ayatans. Do like the challenge, but it seems unnecessarily restrictive.
     
  • Survival length: Like others have previously stated a cummulative scheme would be better, even if the intent is to challenge us to survive for 60 minutes, with the current design if someone happens to disconnect at minute 59 then they're just out of luck, need a do-over and it's unlikely that the group they had want to sit around for another 60 minutes just for that. Cummulative would make it probably "too easy" as you could do it in bits and pieces, but it'd remove a lot of gripes, still 60 minutes cummulative is a lot of time to sit down and play just one mission type so even if the difficulty would go down I think it'd still fit within scope.
     
  • Friend/Clan challenges: End of day this is a co-op focused game that you can play solo if you wish and challenges which pushes a community mindset is good. We already have a large amount of content locked behind clans (which granted you can do solo too), so there should be access even for the asocial. I like that this is a thing, however one must be careful not to lock too much behind this limiter. I would say at most one act per week be with friends/clan and it's good, as you can afford to miss one or two acts without falling behind.

Other than that I think the one grip I have with the system is how you get the wolf creds. The bundles work, but I'd much rather see the creds spread out a little per tier. It's a small thing but say for instance you're in my situation, I bought the decoration first thing, leaving me with 10 creds, next bundle gives me another 50. I got vauban, I got more nitain than you need in the game while having crafted most of what already needs it so the only thing I really want/need is the new desert skins and potatoes, potatoes are 75, but I have only 60 at this tier, so now I have to wait 6 tiers to be able to buy a single potato and be left with change I possibly can't use because it's too little.

If instead you got say 10 creds per tier (6x30 creds total in bundles on current series rotation over 30 tiers) I'd be able to buy the potato after two more tiers and go about my business, then worry about picking up other stuff later if I happen to have the coin then. It of course does leave 6 empty tiers (20%) where something would need to go into instead, but honestly I'd rather see "empty" tiers with trickle creds than having to grind for specific tiers just to shop.

Edited by Ulvra
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Vindicta_Necis said:

The Night Wave system doesn't seem like new content to me but rather just a carrot system to encourage grinding. *shrugs* 

 

yep, exactly.

i want new content, not content leading me to the content i've already done many times over, with even more grind on top of it too, just so i can reach to a tier to get a reward, which is debatable if it is worthy of all the time, grind and forced gameplay i have to put myself into.

i am not doing any of it, unless it is completed by total luck as i am doing the things i, myself, want in game and not be forced to do.

hell, not even those who support the new system will be doing these things a while from now, simply coz they will be burned out even faster by doing so or play another game when this gets old (and it will get old rather quickly) or whatever else reason, just wait and see.

old alerts, you will be surely missed.

the alert poped up in the mobile app or in game, 5-10 minutes later, reward collected, done and done.

 

bring back the old alerts, alongside the nightwave system, so everyone to be happy and do it the way they want to, simple as that.

and adjust the nightwave system to be more all kinds of players friendly.

 

and btw, mr26 here and almost everything owned in game, all focus schools maxed with overflow by a lot of millions to each, lots of rivens rerolled, all syndicates maxed and extracted what i wanted out of them (conclave included), moas, amps, kitguns, clan with max room limit reached and with almost everything researched (except the clan colors, since i am not much into decorations), and the list goes on and on and on and on.

so, you cannot really say i haven't done the work or i do not wanna do the work.

and it is not work, but you know what i mean, since this is a game, let's not forget that.

it is not like that.

i just do not wanna do it as a forced thing, as a secondary job.

and i am certain a lot of players see this whole thing as i do, as well.

thank you.

 

Edited by No1Eye
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, lighthoof said:

As an example, you can give 15-20 different weekly challenges and 7-10 elites, but introduce a cap on the amount that can be completed in a week (current one is ok - 7 weekly , 3 elite).

I kinda like this idea personally as with the potential for all the stuff coming out (railjack and the new war) that can fill out a lot of spaces quickly. I mentioned before that I would prefer to play with actual friends rather then be forced to add to the friend list for a temporary "friend" for one mission but when railjack drops I think having a railjack style raid against grinner/corpus shipping lanes from clan/alliance built solar rails. That way if a player would prefer to play solo they can use their own orbiter/ landing craft and for a public or with friends the railjack can be launched.

The way I think it can work (at least in my head) is that nav coordinates (like for Mutalist alad v) can be collected from spy or mobile defense missions and once you have enough be put into the rail and launch the mission. This way it can provide a more interconnected universe with cause and effect rather then go here kill all the things go home style of play.

It can also have random alerts for nightwave for those who prefer them that can pop up randomly or once a week of a large shipment of whatever guarded by whatever big bad the faction has and could encourage team play depending on the setup without having to have a requirement for doing it a certain way. The rewards here could be resources for newer players, mods or gear for mid tier players and the potential for endurace style missions for vets.

At least that's what's currently floating around my head.

Edited by Cuchullin
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@Andvarja I appreciate your perspective. I certainly was not trying to insinuste that constructive criticism was unwarranted. I gave my own feedback and suggestions a few pages before. 

The toxicity I am referring to is people calling Nightwave garbage, calling for Steve to be fired, and saying they are done with Warframe because of it. This is all massive overreaction and immense negativity for a system that has many very positive features. I played Elder Scrolls Online consistently for years and was very active on their forums. Those devs got raked over the coals a lot, and in many cases they deserved it. Coming to Warframe, I saw a community that stood behind the dev team and recognized their dedication and care for this game and this community. It's just been disappointing to see similar behavior showing up here.

I'm sure there are people being rude to those who voice concerns about this or that aspect of the system as well, and that's also not good. We should all strive to be level-headed, civil, and thoughtful in our discussions. 

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@dpencil All toxicity is perfectly reasonable...

If NightWave has been added as event (without removing old and fairly reliable Alert system) there will be much less complain.

To call NW garbage is a bit (smaaaaaallll) overreacting, but when we need to rely on a untested and unfair system to get important resources and mods...

And NW is really untested and unfair:

- only one instance of Wolf Boss in five-six day and literally an over hundred missions -

- fugitives that spawn in 1/4 to 1/6 missions and often are bugged, resulting downed targets placed in unreachable positions (same as Ayatan Stars a couple months ago) - 

- unfairness of some tasks for users with not so stable net (1 hour survival?!? REALLY? -_- )

- unfairness for low MR users that can't do over half of tasks loosing over 2/3 of standing - 

- WolfCreds acquired at very slow rate  and fairly insufficient for buying something useful - 300 creds in 10 weeks and you need 225 for 4 random Aura mods + 2 random weapons BP + Vauban set (DoubleFacePalm.GIF) - 

- at least one task that literally force you to join friends/clanners, and some others that force you to go solo because you know - kills can't be chared (rill eximuses / kill with specific element, etc) -     

- what is purpose of Affinity bonus removal, DE? Is small rewards outdated too? -

All in one and good (not ideal) ALERT system that rewarded you almost instantly was changed to a clunky contraption, that can reward you. IN. FUTURE. MAYBE. IF. YOU. TRAY. HARD. ENOUGH. AND. DON'T. LOSE. TIME. Because when loosing a couple of old alerts you loose only rewards for that same alerts. Loosing a couple of NW tasks can results in loosing a BIG chunk of rewards because  you loose not only current rewards, but also access to higher tiers...

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4 hours ago, eksby said:

a) Removing the 10 week time limit and making it something that players can slowly do on their own time like login rewards. Maybe make new challenges appear after each rankup, so that those who want to no-life it can do that if they want to. If we go this route, I don't even care if there are 60 min Kuva survivals with a friend because I'll know that I can do that at my own pace. What's really killer in the current Nightwave is the time limit pressure.

Totally agree. I have only like 2 hours a day to play, if at all, and already know i will not reach reward rank 20. Already accepted that i can't get any of the "good" rewards anyway. And because of the time limit i'm now worried i won't even get the Wolf Sledge, means i will miss out some mastery probably permanently (?). No surprise the parts got for 500plat atm, everybody freaks out they could miss it.

4 hours ago, eksby said:

b) Making the challenges substantially less time consuming.

Can also sign that. Nightwave is not and should not be "new content". But currently it's taking everyones time 100%. Nobody has time for farming ressources or opening relics. The few twitch partners i watch are also not doing anything else but grinding nightwave standing. Just like if a new cinematic quest was released! But nightwave is a permanent thing now? There will be season after season. Who then has time to do anything else? Like the parts that people actually enjoy?

4 hours ago, eksby said:

c) Giving a broader range of challenges so players can pick and choose what they want to do. I'm sure no one will be complaining if we could pick to do 5 capture missions instead of a 60 min Kuva survival if we wanted to.

Yes, i'll happily do 10 capture missions and 5 syndicate missions if i could pass on the survival and still get the same standing! There are people who like long survivals. More power to them. I don't. I would like to have an alternative.

4 hours ago, eksby said:

d) Making challenges more about gameplay rather than game modes. I personally liked the "kill x amount of enemies with Ice/Blast/etc damage," "kill x amounts of enemies while sliding" etc. Those were fun, and I could passively do it in my regular gameplay rather than need to go out of my way to play a game mode I dislike. And, it actually got me to bring out some old guns or switch out mods that I hadn't touched in years.

Well said. Currently (most of) the challenges take your whole attention, you actively have to do missions/game modes that you usually don't do. At least the "elite" challenges (which make up most of the rep progress) do! Challenges that i can do "on the side" by just using a different warframe or modding my favorite weapon are the way to go, and there are a few. I really enjoy these! Sadly they fob you off with measly 1k rep per day, which in the big picture (the whole season) means literally nothing.

 

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There needs to be a way to catch up on missed standing, at current if you start three weeks in or you're going on holiday for a while or any other of the events in real life that wont let you play then you can kiss rank 30 goodbye. The one i saw floating around where unfinished weeklies till the end of the season sounds fair to me, and it would also give incentive to new players to progress through the game to complete elite tasks that they might to be able to do at current.

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18 hours ago, Leon-Darkheart said:

wait what?

You play it in the night and then do some housework? What ya doing at your nighttime mate? scrubbing the floor?? No srsly. I go to sleep at night, duno what you are doing but ok then...

i have a lot of animals so i typically clean up after them ,prepare their food and such  when i get home from work, but prepwork for next day is faster if i get it done ahead of time so i do that before i head to bed. 

and sure why not scrub my floors , i take pride in my home and like a clean house ? 

if you dont like a clean home its up to you , but i like to clean its just how i am 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)moonchorus said:

There needs to be a way to catch up on missed standing, at current if you start three weeks in or you're going on holiday for a while or any other of the events in real life that wont let you play then you can kiss rank 30 goodbye.

Exactly. And next week (or this?) new warframes will be released, surely bringing quite a few players back to warframe again. And they will see nightwaves is halfway over - with no way to catch up. That will be pretty frustrating, having all those nice rewards on your screen with no way to get them.

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I just had a connection problem and got thrown out of the group - challange lost. How about implementing a timeout screen where you can wait for other players - at least when you play with friends. It does not have to be on public groups.

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