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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Posted (edited)

The friend part of Nightwave tied to the highest syndicate earning needs to go. 

Actually "friend/clanmate" is a terrible aspect.  Simple because people got tired of the drought and left leaving me in well crap mode. So I had to rely on recruit chat where trolling can happen. Everything else with nightwave is good but that small friend/clan requirement hinders people.  

Take it out.

Edited by Kjahla81
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Apparently I don't play warframe in the approved manner or so it seem with the offering in the Nightwave system. Finding very little fun in the current forced game play so I will find something else to fill my time in with outside warframe's.

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On 2019-03-04 at 10:47 PM, [DE]Bear said:

 

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

  • Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
  • Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
  • Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe". 

 

imo it should also count ANY endless missions if the challenges have the bar set too high. Such as mentioned survival, it should also includes defence, excavation, interception, defection. 

The acts with them can stay - if the challenge is reasonable.

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I don't dislike the Battlepass idea in general as I acknowledge that it provides huge benefits over the old alert system for everybody and I also understand that alot of hardcore players desperately search for "something" todo in Warframe.

But I really have to say that this new system completely destroyed my motivation to play Warframe at all as I already know from the beginning that I won't reach a 60 or 65% mark at all and I also totally dislike that Warframe turns more into a "i have to play it daily because I must complete the Grind" game.

I understand that it can be a motivation for alot of people but I personally don't want to see a Game as a daily / weekly task that I HAVE to do like normal Tasks as making the dishes or cleaning my house.

I just have to much too do in my personal life to reach the 60% mark and therefore don't even try bothering with that game at the moment.

I personally hope that DE will change the principe just a bit (as said I don't dislike the battle pass Idea in general) so that it will be more suitable for causal players like me but as seeing that the Elite challegenges for this week take even more time to complete destroys my hope. I guess I have to acceppt that casual players like me are not the target audience for Warmframe (Digital Extremes) as we just generate not enough profit in the Games as a Service market.

Sad but true. Still sad.

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I really hope we get some sort of official statement from DE about how they think Nightwave is better than Alerts and why they removed Alerts entirely. They could've just actually improved the way alerts work, like change the rewards or the timers or whatever, but removing them was just cheap. Or how about just simply adding a unique currency that are rewarded form our dear alerts instead of what they normally would give, and we can buy our nitain with that in a special shop that monthly changes stock or something. It would've been such a little change that would actually achieve what we wanted: not having to worry to miss out.

Now we have a different system that is supposed to be better, give us the time we need to get what we want but still the clock is ticking, seemingly even faster now. And the "lore" they are adding with this is nothing but filler.

Usually when I log in I would do some alerts no matter what little rewards they offer just to play a bit with other people, and the 150 endo, 20 void traces or 10k credits can't hurt. Now when I log in I am faced with an empty, dead, starchart and a load of challenges I have to do or else miss out on the unique rewards. It is really just like an event, but events last for far less time so I'd just powergame a few days and be done with it, I don't have the endurance to do these daily and weekly chores for months, I'd rather just not play at all at this point.

But I can see their thought process here, most people play during events so why not make an event that lasts forever? brilliant...

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Posted (edited)

Please cut the audio line where Nora is talking about how 'even when you think you've seen it all there's always something more'. It just feels downright insulting during what is essentially a daily chore grind.

Also these "hey get to x minutes/x waves" are going to be even worse with individual extraction.

Edited by Worm4real
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I'm really 50/50 on the 60 minute survival discussion. On one end, since I'm at a stage in Warframe where I'm capable of handling 60+ minute survivals no problem, and could even do it solo if I wanted to. I fortunately didn't come across any trolls during my 1st and only attempt, and it's really surprising me that trolls are even coming in to ruin the fun (people salty about the challenge to begin with ruining it for others?).

Having it cumulative would ruin the purpose of the idea, because towards the bitter end you are not dealing with high level Grineer, which does require setups to cope with (Corrosive Projection, Slash Procs, etc). Perhaps doing a full 30 minute Arbitrations & Elite Sanctuary Onslaught would be better suited, since you immediately are facing off against high level enemies, alongside a new challenge to top it off.

In addition, the idea of a 60 minute run does go against what I've frequently heard mentioned on the devstream of having content "Bite Sized", which is why we haven't had a big incentive to go beyond 20-30 minutes in terms of rewards. The only bit of content that's specifically rewards going through an endurance run is 60 Minutes in the Index, and that's just for a cool poster on your ship. By no means is it essential. If you want to speak to more Endurance runners, more items like these are nice. They're for showing off and I like that.

For the Ayatan Sculptures, I don't see the complaints for it besides the understandable "I JUST TURNED MINE IN", and the fact that it's gated. Sculptures reliably drop from Arbitrations, and frequently from Sorties. You have the weekly Ayatan hunt & can even trade for them. The challenge is really rough without access to Arbitrations yes, but I don't consider it unreasonable, but rather gated. Then again Sortie challenges are gated as well, so it's a matter of if you want the Elite challenges to be possible only by people who have access to all content or not.

In terms of the "play with friends" challenges, it's a multiplayer game. It's completely fair to ask people to rally up with others. You encourage others to get into a clan, play with each other, chat, and trade. I don't see any problem with this, in fact I see it being healthy when the game continues to promote people into being more sociable. Yes some people are going to have to add a random through a pub or recruit chat, but it could turn out that they actually did make a new friend after they do a post mission chat.

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Option to mute Nova and her lines please. Personally she irritates me and I don't actually like her quotes. I do however like to hear other npc's lines but can't now since I have chosen to completely mute all voices in the game.

Also about nightwave, I personally think alerts should stay in the game and nightwave should be it's own separate thing especially for new players but as a person who has played for years now I also would like some changes to nightwave like not needing friends or clan mates etc. I tend to go in random groups all the time and most of my friends and clan mates are playing other stuff right now.

Also that 1hr kuva thing was by far the most annoying thing because yous have never implemented and option to cancel using the LP which a guy did on accident when trying to revive my mate. Small things like this to prevent such screw ups go a long way in games of this caliber. Yous finally brought the leave a excavation option out or other mission modes when players want where others can stay so we why not something to stop us cancelling something we don't want to maybe do? that can potentially ruin a game mode for us like this in this format.

as for the weekly/daily farm. I don't mind it all to much but I do hate the idea of losing that umbral forma personally lol. And I am afraid to lose it when I go overseas in April. I don't know if ill be able to get it because I am not sure the laptop can handle this game will be sad 😞 so I do hope we get other means to get such an awesome item.

Anyways thanks for the content DE look forward to more.

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My thoughts on Nightwave on the whole.

First, the main issue I have, above all others, is the "With friends or clanmates" condition. As with many others, I don't have friends that play, and many players are in small, solo, or dead/dying clans. This leaves us with the option of recruiting Randoms, friending them, and praying they're not trolls who will ruin the objective for us near the end. This has popped up on Reddit as a somewhat common occurence, and while I was lucky enough to not have it happen to me, I was very nervous in the last 10 minutes of my Kuva survival. It also defeats the purpose to just friend randoms, but for some of us, that's our only real option. I strongly advise dropping this objective condition altogether, as it's the point I've seen the most backlash against, and the point I personally dislike the most.

The Ayatan Sculpture objective nearly broke me. I ran Arbitrations for hours and kept getting raw Endo. I struggled to get five statues even with ready access to Arbitrations, so I'm certain newer players or those who haven't unlocked Arbitration struggled more than I did. Many probably failed to actually meet that objective. Worst of all, I only needed three, as Maroo's mission gave me one and a Sortie gave me another. So all that struggle through hours of RNG for only three sculptures. Nobody should ever have reason to be angry when they get an Adaptation mod, but there I was, fuming because it wasn't an Ayatan Sculpture, and I had two days working full time to meet the objective.

As far as Surivals, I personally didn't mind having a 60-minute survival as an Elite Act, but I did mind having two at once, and the "Friend/Clanmate" condition on top of that was the real killer. I'd advise drawing the survival back to ~30 minutes, ensuring there's a maximum of one "long timed" objective per week, allowing 60 minutes to be done in pieces that accumulate to 60 minutes, not put the "Friend/Clanmate" objective in, or some combination of the above.

My last point: This is absolutely not new player friendly in any way. I'm not new, so it doesn't bother me personally, but the newer Tenno cannot possibly hope to hit even 50% of these objectives. Nitain is now behind the Nightwave Wall. Any Alert Weapon BPs cost a the better part of the 50 Cred allowance for making it to an objective with Creds as the reward. Vauban is almost ocmpletely out of their reach, costing 75 Creds. And because they're not able to complete most of those objectives, that makes the slog even longer. Agian, I've been playing a while, this isn't gonna hurt me. But looking at the list of stuff in the Cred trade-in screen against what I own from there, it'd take months or more to get it all with Creds. I'm aware that Going past Rank 30 in the event showers you in Creds (50 per rank after 30) but again, the players who can do that don't really need to, (though the idea of swimming in Potato BPs is nice) and the ones that need to won't be able to.

I'm aware that any changes are projected for the next "Campaign," but consider fast-tracking a few if possible. Warframe is a great game, one of the best I've ever played, and three months of community bitterness over "unreasonable" objectives isn't going to reflect well.

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Posted (edited)

Ok I'm going to try and keep it simple with bullet points 🙂  For reference I'm MR25 (I can take MR26 test) and have been playing for over 3 years (done the 1000 days of logins).

  • What I expected to get with the replacements for alerts (based on what dev's had said) was a system closer to plague star where the more you did, the more 'standing' you had meaning you could get more things from the store and the items could be purchased in the order you wanted. 
  • What we got (imo) was a system that is incredibly unfriendly to new players, incredibly restrictive and is essentially forced participation if you want all the tier rewards. 

 

Tier Rewards:

  • Feels like a lot of it is aimed at 'newer' players and the things that 'veterans' will want are stuck at the end behind forced participation if we want them.
  • Is essentially pre rework login rewards but with more effort to get preset reward after x days.... due to limited weekly standing rewards are basically timegated just like the login rewards system many people complained about... it's just over a shorter period.
  • Free slots have been things we've been asking for for ages, can't complain about these, although I don't personally need them
  • Forma, I don't actually need any of these as I do one daily from relics.  I do feel having them twice is overkill considering how easy they are to get these days though.
  • creds x50... why are these even tier reward?  Why not just give credits per tier or from each mission.  Total of 300 per cycle means restrictions are placed on cred store, this is far more grindy than the old alert system and imo is nothing more than 'pushing new players' to buy cosmetics etc with plat.
  • glyphs/sigils/stances etc... why are these in the tier rewards, all they're doing is diluting the rewards and could have been something that was sold for creds.  Personally I have zero interest in glyphs/sigils etc, if I had the choice I wouldn't be running my syndicate ones.
  • we're limited to one of each tier reward per 2.5 MONTH cycle...in the case of cosmetics and things like slots that's fine but umbra forma ONLY being available from the tier rewards at tier 29 (here's that forced participation again for high level players), and only once, makes it an incredibly restrictive commodity. 
  • Umbra Forma: When you first see it you think, ooh what should I put it on, my thoughts were nezha/inaros but they're due to have primes soontm so I thought, no that's too much of a waste, so then I thought I'll stick it on a prime frame but then I was like, but DE have said more umbra frames are coming, what if that frame gets an umbra version soontm .  Because of the amount of time between getting umbra forma it stops it from being a 'disposable' commodity and that to me is restrictive and personally I don't like that.  It's not going to make thing's overpowered if there are more of them available, we can already run all 3 mods with very little loss of power etc. 
  • if we max out all 30 tiers it seems we'll be getting creds as the replacement rewards...see below.

 

Creds:

  • 300 per 2.5 Months is far too low for a new player, for a veteran who has everything already it doesn't really make any difference.
  • Incredibly unfair to new players compared with the old alert system
  • limited amount of items can be purchased if you get the full 300 creds
  • 50 creds per 'tier reward' is an awkward amount relative to the prices of the items in the 'shop'.  You can't buy a helmet and an aura for example as they total 55 creds.
  • imbalanced cred prices for things like catalyst/reactor relative to the helmets when compared to their plat prices.
  • You need 2 tiers to be able to buy a catalyst/reactor at 75 which leaves 25, an awkward amount once you have vauban parts.
  • Still has 'time restrictions' for getting items, it's now x amount of teirs instead of 'being on at the right time'. 
  • There's nothing for me to buy with creds...as a long term player I literally have nothing to buy from there (I don't want the camo skins), I already had all the aura's, all the helmets and a have a nice little stockpile of nitain, catalysts and reactors. 
  • If as planned creds are the 'prestige' reward once you get tier 30 I will still have nothing to spend it on....unless it unlocks more items (no one there yet so...)

 

Missions:

  • General feeling of missions, is they're a chore rather than just being a fun 'side mission'. 
  • While 60% is the supposed target we need to hit each week, this doesn't consider potential time lost due to holidays etc.  If you just skip the elite missions (because you don't want to do them or can't do them) you won't get enough standing to get to 300,000 standing in 10 weeks (this is time frame being suggested) unless you do EVERY other mission and hope you see enough capture targets to get the missing 30,000 standing.
  • I don't want to be 'forced' into doing things I have no need for any more. 
  • Not enough 'lower level' missions, current system will actually make it hard for a newer player toget the 300,000 standing.  New system should be FULLY inclusive of all players, just takes longer for newer players versus 'veterans'. 
  • I had no need for the PoE bounties, I'm fully maxed on cetus, so I did missions for no other purpose than to get my standing.
  • I had no need to do the syndicate missions, I was or close to fully maxed out on 4 syndicates (I'm not now as I spent some standing on a weapon for a clan mate), so again at that time I did the mission for no other purpose than to get the standing.
  • 1K missions are fine, bit repetitive but they're 'easy mode' missions.  Could really do with there being more of these.
  • 3k missions, most are ok but some need a slight balance in terms of how much we need to do versus return.
  • 5k missions, in my opinion they seem the biggest issue.  Most seem to be aimed at the players that can spend longer periods in the game in one go, not every one can. 
  • Personally I'm not going to do a 1 hour mission, even though I know I can if I want to, especially survival (which I'm not a fan of anyway) where it has restrictions that can easily be trolled or you can mistime a button press and fail.  You also have issues with rng spawn rates of air from enemies still on survival.
  • Some people can't do sorties due to maxed rivens...
  • PoE 9 missions, even the fastest is too many for 3K standing.  3 would be better balanced
  • Hydrolist... this is a time restricted mission which can only be done at set times during the day.  Personally I didn't want to do it but it also turned out I wasn't on a lot during PoE night time.    Would be fine if you had a way of 'changing the time' on PoE to night so it wasn't 'timegated' when we could hunt them.  This mission can also create quite a toxic environment for newbies who do not have the correct weapons or experience.  IMO this mission should have been the Teralist, even a 'newbie' (with the right gear) should be ok doing that in a night.
  • 10 perfect captures... just too time consuming for 3k standing.  5 would be much better.
  • Fill 5 ayatan... I already had 90+ ayatan in inventory, they'd all been filled as I get them.  Would be nice if some things are 'retroactively' achieved.  Alternative is reduce to 1 due to the weekly mission.  While higher level players can do arbitrations, new players are limited to 1 guaranteed ayatan statue per week.
  • BUGS:  If you want us to do a mission for standing can you please ensure there are no bugs which can affect said missions.  I had so many bugs doing PoE bounties that it took far longer than it should have.  Storage container spawn issues and capture target not being able to be transferred to the ship for example.
  • Friends/Clan member missions: Ok in theory but only works if you can all get on at the same time to do the same mission.  This isn't always possible so it would better to not have this type of mission.
  • Ratio of missions is rather 'off'....it's too heavily balanced towards 'experienced' players or players who have managed to get a decent level of mods etc....

 

Suggestions/Improvements:

  • This game mode should be fully inclusive of all players at whatever level they are at, especially when there are time restricted items in the rewards tables.  It should not punish casual play either.
  • Remember people have real lives and real life should be more important than a game.  Remember not everyone can play for long periods of time or daily/weekly. 
  • More missions available per week, biased towards newer players.  Don't make elite missions essential to reach the required the 300,000 standing, use them as a way to get there faster. More missions would speed up progress or give alternatives missions for higher level players but would also increase the chance new players will reach the full 300,000 standing in 10 weeks.  or
  • Change tier rewards to be 20-25 levels by removing sigils, glyphs, creds, stances etc and making them cred rewards instead.  This would reduce necessary standing to get all tier rewards.  Allow each tier or mission to give creds instead.  If a 'veteran' completes everything they only get creds so it's not going to break anything if we get it done faster, there's not exactly anything in creds for 'veterans'. 
  • Allow us to pick the reward we want from tier rewards
  • Allow us to get multiples of the same reward.  I have no need for the 2x3 forma but would like more than one umbra forma per 2.5 months for example.  If you're worried about power creep put a restriction on how many umbra forma we can have in a 10 week cycle.
  • Give 'veterans' something to pick up from creds... if I'm lucky I might be able to use the creds I get on hildron and maybe wisps alt helmets if they're put into this rotation but there's no guarantee that we'll see their alt helmets this cycle. 
  • Ideally, while I doubt this will happen, change the system to be closer to plague star where everything is in the 'creds' store, give us LOTS of missions to pick from and allow us to play as much or as little as we want. We can then just 'buy' what we want when we want it instead.  If you play more you get more 'stuff', 'veterans' won't be forced into doing things for no reason and newbies can farm to their hearts content.
  • Increase the 50 standing per captured wolf target or add in some creds as well.  Increased spawn rates on 'starter' planets would also help newer players get standing.

 

Side Note/Annoyances linked to Nightwave:

  • No audible cue for the wolf capture targets, would be nice imo.
  • I still have not seen the Wolf, although I've seen the stalker a LOT in the same time.
  • The Wolf has a drop chance on weapon parts which would be fine if we could find him....we need to first see the wolf.
  • You say the rates will increase, they're too low to start with imo. 
Edited by LSG501
corrections
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What is the point of calling challenges "Elite" when the non elite portion of the playerbase sees them, cries, and then are meet with the coddle and nursing of DE?

While I do agree 60 minutes was quite the investment, it was far from unreasonable. When you guys eventually nerf the conditions of the bounty, (and I know you will) consider putting some extra thought into replacing the difficulty which would've been the endurance part of 60mins, with something else to keep the trial feeling challenging.

Use your design council for ideas or something.

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My thought is that there are a few key, critical problems with Nightwave as it is.
 

  1. Important rewards are buried too deep. Umbra Forma is something everyone will want, and you know it. It should not be Rank 29. It should be rank 15 or so. People have lives, people will not WANT to have to play every day or even every week. You must respect the player's time, and asking them to do 60% of the challenges to get such an important, unique gameplay reward is the big reason why people are whining. This would not be such a problem if other sources of this resource existed, but they do not. Comparatively nobody is complaining about the Rank 30 cosmetic armor, for instance.
  2. 60 minutes is too long for casual players. Note that I specify casual players. There are a lot of players in your base that have this much time and/or skill. I am one of them, I completed both challenges this is a sticking point for. My suggestion is not to eliminate these challenges, but instead to 'tier' them. Whenever a challenge like this pops up, include both a more casual version (like the 'cumulative minutes' some people suggest), as well as an optional version, awarding no standing and a non-unique mid-tier reward. Say, a single forma, or a random 3-day Booster. This way you have both a casual-friendly approach and something for your more hardcore/established players to try for. In fact, I would say that "Bonus" harder weeklies, with no standing gain and self-contained non-unique rewards, would be a good idea in general.
  3. Daily quests lack variety. As far as I can tell, every single daily quest thus far has been a "Kill 150 enemies with THIS damage type" challenge? I feel this could use some variety. "Open All 3 Resource Caches in a Sabotage mission", or "Complete a mission on this specific planet", or something like that.
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I've really enjoyed the nightwave content and even enjoyed the ones everyone has been complaining about. It required additional planning, and learning aspects of the game I wasn't familiar with.

 

However, my issues have been revolving around other aspects of this. Week one the tridolon challenge, My friend and I had never attempted them, and wanted to learn how to do it. We queued in and informed the people that we were new and still learning it and the other 2 people instantly quit about 4 times in a row. I don't like the feeling of disrupting someone else's gameplay to get to this content.

 For this week's challenges, I have a friend to do it with already, so we found two random people on recruit to do both the missions at once on Kuva, added the people. However, the fact that someone could interrupt our challenge 5 minutes left made us nervous about it. 

 

My solution to these problems is that it be possible to queue for a specific task in nightwave. I know that's no easy task, but if we queued up for the Kuva mission, maybe that disables the ability to do the thing that stops us from completing that challenge. If we queued for the Tridolon challenge later in the week, then it'd be clear that we had not completed that challenge previously and might need some extra assistance.

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Posted (edited)

NinTenno here. 

I think the concept behind Nightwave is okay. Though it doesn’t really sound too friendly to me. I have a job that sometimes even demands weekend work from me. (Yay advertising!) Nightwave makes me feel like I have to log on everyday, which is okay IF I have the time! But when I am unable to play because of everyday responsibilities, it’s just frustrating. I know that if I miss a certain number of challenges, I won’t be able to hit certain rewards. And that thought makes the whole system less fun. Right now, I already feel demotivated to play because I’ve already missed certain challenges. (Perhaps add more challenges with variety for the 5k ones? Ex: instead of 2, make it 4 with different types of challenges. If people finish it all, then that’s good! But if you aren’t able to finish it all, it won’t be so punishing because you have the option of choosing the other 5k challenges that you find doable. This is just a possible solution I’m throwing out.)

 

As for the challenges, the survival challenge is the biggest miss for me. I have totally given up on Kuva survival because I just lack the motivation to go through it again just to experience host migration or just to be magocally kicked from the squad into a solo game. It’s happened in all my attempts. (In my first attempt, I got magically kicked from the squad. No host migration warning. Just got teleported to a solo session. The squad I was with was able to finish it since there were only 7 minutes left.) It’s a doable challenge if you have a good squad but the thought of getting host migration and other technical problems makes this challenge totally a hard pass for me. 

Edited by (NSW)invaderxim
Added a suggestion. My post was full of experience and lacked suggestions.
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On 2019-03-04 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Nightwave is here in all of it’s Nora Night-backed glory, and there has been a lot of back and forth (both on the forums and internally) about the challenges and how to accrue Nightwave standing. Series 1 of Nightwave is our first attempt at this addition to Warframe, and we want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts and requests. We will be using this thread to gather feedback from everyone on all Platforms! 

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

  • Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
  • Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
  • Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe". 

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark - if you liked it, or didn't like it, comment below. In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall.

Nightwave is still new to the community and we are expecting to see more feedback come as the series progresses - you've only seen a % of all Acts, so as Series 1 progresses we need your feedback on the appearing Acts. We've seen players responding with some possible solutions that would make these challenges more piecemeal, balance the resources needed to complete some challenges, and assess social requirements to get your goodies.

We will be applying what we have learned to Nightwave Series 2 - but can only improve with constructive, detailed posts about what you like / didn't like about acts. Knowing what you like is just as important as what you don't like. 
 

to be honest i wouldn't mind 60 minute survival mission but i have an issue with the fact that both of them are constrained by a friend or clan requirement and the other requiring to run on the kuva survival mission without using air support since the air support drops are a bit stingy on kuva survival missions. so both seems a bit too limiting. i would feel a little bit better if the acts weren't limiting. 

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For the most part I really like the Nightwave missions. I feel the missions are a good mix,but I agree there's no need for the weeklies to expire. I do think two back to back hour long challenges is a bit much,but I was not planing on doing them as I don't tend to run longer than 30 min missions as a rule. I do think the idea of it being a hour of commutative play is better IMO.

With that being said, I do however see a bigger issue that I would have never seen if I was not playing with a new player,my wife.

So I wouldn't call myself a vet or hardcore player, but I do have some time in this game (at about 530h on pc) and for the most part I have some okish forma'd weapons and frames that I can,if motivated do most if not all the challenges/sorties/bounties...etc.

My Wife just started playing a few weeks back and she is doing well for being a new player,but she really can't even scratch most of the Nightwave without me helping out or taxing to a location she has not unlocked yet,which is fine,but the issue she has is around Aura mods and them being behind more than one gate now. 

She is starting to learn about building frames and has gotten the point she needs to get some Aura mods in her collection.

Before the only gate she really had was waiting for an alert to pop and maybe getting a taxi to it,if it was a node she did not have. Grated as time goes on the node "gate" goes away and it's then just waiting on that Aura alert and shes got that mod. That what I did when I was a new player, worked to unlock my starchart and get those Aura mods as they came up. Waiting for alerts I worked on rep/void runs and whatever else I was needing to do. It felt good and was kinda fun to be working on something and see that Alert pop with the mod you need!

Now,she is locked behind Nightwave leveling to get Wolf creds,the content she has to do to get the rep for the creds(with time this goes away and I can "bypass" this gate by taxing the content she can't do/doesn't have unlocked yet) and the rotation the Wolf cred rewards for the Aura mods she needs/wants. I think this is something that needs to change or become more new player accessible to the sense it was before(worst case you get someone to taxi you). 

From my perspective before I did not have any issues with how you acquire Aura mods now,as I have them all and was taxing runs/selling/giving out dups (Wish I would have kept/farmed more now)

But now (outside of buying them with plat or me spending my creds to get them for her and trading) she likely won't have more then a few by the time this round of nightwave is over,where with the older alerts system she very well could have most if not all the "must have ones" like Corrosive Projection/Physique/Steel Charge..etc just by working on starchart/MR grind and jumping into the Alerts as they came up.

Maybe move those back to Alerts? Maybe give creds out on every tier rankup of just give a few out per nightwave daily/weekly challenges? Maybe create another daily/weekly that rewards one aura mod in rotation instead of Nightwave standing? 

Thoughts?

 

 

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As someone who prefers to play solo the elite missions annoyed me. I don't understand the decision to NEED friends for some of these.
I honestly wouldn't mind doing an endurance run without triggering towers if the spawn rates for life support were actually decent in solo play. This has been an issue for quite a while now, when you get to a certain point the enemies just do not spawn enough even with nekros. I really want to like nightwave because the concept of having weekly challenges to complete sounds fun but there is a constant anxiety of "am i going to get enough standing to get all the rewards?". How accurate is this complete 60% of missions really? 🗿

 

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More lore. The wolf is an interesting character, he needs more development, as far as why was he imprisoned? Was he suffering from the pacifist defect? Why did he break out? To help his fellow imprisoned  friends? Why is he attacking Tenno and not just Grinneer? What made him the apple of the warden's eye?

I'd love to find out that he was actually a Kavor defector and was captured and forced to fight to stay alive, and he ends up becoming the leader of the Kavor who will become a new faction or syndicate... or... and bear with me.. he becomes a Grinneer frame.. similar to how we have Nidus as a infested frame, why not a Grinneer one? Maybe make him a Weapons specialist? With a interesting passive like being able to equip two primaries.

Just feel like he needs to have more of a background.

Additionally, it's clear everyone has issues with his spawn rate and that it is going to increase in the following weeks of Nightwave, but shouldn't capturing his fugitive friends affect his spawn rate? Like the more you capture, the more likely he is to spawn? 

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Personally I would like to see them retract this update and revert it to the previous version; then make the necessary changes to Nightwave before re-implementing.

I know that this idea will, most likely, create a lot of backlash, but ... it sounds to me, in this feedback area and in other areas, that there are a lot of people who are displeased as to how this update was conceived and executed. So what would be better for DE? Leave it and try to fix, while people - possibly - stop playing or revert it, letting people know that it will be back?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Ok I'm going to try and keep it simple with bullet points 🙂  For reference I'm MR25 (I can take MR26 test) and have been playing for over 3 years (done the 1000 days of logins).

  • What I expected to get with the replacements for alerts (based on what dev's had said) was a system closer to plague star where the more you did, the more 'standing' you had meaning you could get more things from the store and the items could be purchased in the order you wanted. 
  • What we got (imo) was a system that is incredibly unfriendly to new players, incredibly restrictive and is essentially forced participation if you want all the tier rewards. 

 

Tier Rewards:

  • Feels like a lot of it is aimed at 'newer' players and the things that 'veterans' will want are stuck at the end behind forced participation if we want them.
  • Is essentially pre rework login rewards but with more effort to get preset reward after x days.... due to limited weekly standing rewards are basically timegated just like the login rewards system many people complained about... it's just over a shorter period.
  • Free slots have been things we've been asking for for ages, can't complain about these, although I don't personally need them
  • Forma, I don't actually need any of these as I do one daily from relics.  I do feel having them twice is overkill considering how easy they are to get these days though.
  • creds x50... why are these even tier reward?  Why not just give credits per tier or from each mission.  Total of 300 per cycle means restrictions are placed on cred store, this is far more grindy than the old alert system and imo is nothing more than 'pushing new players' to buy cosmetics etc with plat.
  • glyphs/sigils/stances etc... why are these in the tier rewards, all they're doing is diluting the rewards and could have been something that was sold for creds.  Personally I have zero interest in glyphs/sigils etc, if I had the choice I wouldn't be running my syndicate ones.
  • we're limited to one of each tier reward per 2.5 MONTH cycle...in the case of cosmetics and things like slots that's fine but umbra forma ONLY being available from the tier rewards at week 29 (here's that forced participation again for high level players), and only once, makes it an incredibly restrictive commodity. 
  • Umbra Forma: When you first see it you think, ooh what should I put it on, my thoughts were nezha/inaros but they're due to have primes soontm so I thought, no that's too much of a waste, so then I thought I'll stick it on a prime frame but then I was like, but DE have said more umbra frames are coming, what if that frame gets an umbra version soontm .  Because of the amount of time between getting umbra forma it stops it from being a 'disposable' commodity and that to me is restrictive and personally I don't like that.  It's not going to make thing's overpowered if there are more of them available, we can already run all 3 mods with very little loss of power etc. 
  • if we max out all 30 tiers it seems we'll be getting creds as the replacement rewards...see below.

 

Creds:

  • 300 per 2.5 Months is far too low for a new player, for a veteran who has everything already it doesn't really make any difference.
  • Incredibly unfair to new players compared with the old alert system
  • limited amount of items can be purchased if you get the full 300 creds
  • 50 creds per 'tier reward' is an awkward amount relative to the prices of the items in the 'shop'.  You can't buy a helmet and an aura for example as they total 55 creds.
  • imbalanced cred prices for things like catalyst/reactor relative to the helmets when compared to their plat prices.
  • You need 2 tiers to be able to buy a catalyst/reactor at 75 which leaves 25, an awkward amount once you have vauban parts.
  • Still has 'time restrictions' for getting items, it's now x amount of teirs instead of 'being on at the right time'. 
  • There's nothing for me to buy with creds...as a long term player I literally have nothing to buy from there (I don't want the camo skins), I already had all the aura's, all the helmets and a have a nice little stockpile of nitain, catalysts and reactors. 
  • If as planned creds are the 'prestige' reward once you get tier 30 I will still have nothing to spend it on....unless it unlocks more items (no one there yet so...)

 

Missions:

  • General feeling of missions, is they're a chore rather than just being a fun 'side mission'. 
  • While 60% is the supposed target we need to hit each week, this doesn't consider potential time lost due to holidays etc.  If you just skip the elite missions (because you don't want to do them or can't do them) you won't get enough standing to get to 300,000 standing in 10 weeks (this is time frame being suggested) unless you do EVERY other mission.
  • I don't want to be 'forced' into doing things I have no need for any more. 
  • Not enough 'lower level' missions, current system will actually make it hard for a newer player toget the 300,000 standing.  New system should be FULLY inclusive of all players, just takes longer for newer players versus 'veterans'. 
  • I had no need for the PoE bounties, I'm fully maxed on cetus, so I did missions for no other purpose than to get my standing.
  • I had no need to do the syndicate missions, I was or close to fully maxed out on 4 syndicates (I'm not now as I spent some standing on a weapon for a clan mate), so again at that time I did the mission for no other purpose than to get the standing.
  • 1K missions are fine, bit repetitive but they're 'easy mode' missions.  Could really do with there being more of these.
  • 3k missions, most are ok but some need a slight balance in terms of how much we need to do versus return.
  • 5k missions, in my opinion they seem the biggest issue.  Most seem to be aimed at the players that can spend longer periods in the game in one go, not every one can. 
  • Personally I'm not going to do a 1 hour mission, even though I know I can if I want to, especially survival (which I'm not a fan of anyway) where it has restrictions that can easily be trolled or you can mistime a button press and fail.  You also have issues with rng spawn rates of air from enemies still on survival.
  • Some people can't do sorties due to maxed rivens...
  • PoE 9 missions, even the fastest is too many for 3K standing.  3 would be better balanced
  • Hydrolist... this is a time restricted mission which can only be done at set times during the day.  Personally I didn't want to do it but it also turned out I wasn't on a lot during PoE night time.    Would be fine if you had a way of 'changing the time' on PoE to night so it wasn't 'timegated' when we could hunt them.  This mission can also create quite a toxic environment for newbies who do not have the correct weapons or experience.  IMO this mission should have been the Teralist, even a 'newbie' (with the right gear) should be ok doing that in a night.
  • 10 perfect captures... just too time consuming for 3k standing.  5 would be much better.
  • Fill 5 ayatan... I already had 90+ ayatan in inventory, they'd all been filled as I get them.  Would be nice if some things are 'retroactively' achieved.  Alternative is reduce to 1 due to the weekly mission.  While higher level players can do arbitrations, new players are limited to 1 guaranteed ayatan statue per week.
  • BUGS:  If you want us to do a mission for standing can you please ensure there are no bugs which can affect said missions.  I had so many bugs doing PoE bounties that it took far longer than it should have.  Storage container spawn issues and capture target not being able to be transferred to the ship for example.
  • Friends/Clan member missions: Ok in theory but only works if you can all get on at the same time to do the same mission.  This isn't always possible so it would better to not have this type of mission.
  • Ratio of missions is rather 'off'....it's too heavily balanced towards 'experienced' players or players who have managed to get a decent level of mods etc....

 

Suggestions/Improvements:

  • This game mode should be fully inclusive of all players at whatever level they are at, especially when there are time restricted items in the rewards tables.  It should not punish casual play either.
  • Remember people have real lives and real life should be more important than a game.  Remember not everyone can play for long periods of time or daily/weekly. 
  • More missions available per week, biased towards newer players.  Don't make elite missions essential to reach the required the 300,000 standing, use them as a way to get there faster. More missions would speed up progress or give alternatives missions for higher level players but would also increase the chance new players will reach the full 300,000 standing in 10 weeks.  or
  • Change tier rewards to be 20-25 levels by removing sigils, glyphs, creds, stances etc and making them cred rewards instead.  This would reduce necessary standing to get all tier rewards.  Allow each tier or mission to give creds instead.  If a 'veteran' completes everything they only get creds so it's not going to break anything if we get it done faster, there's not exactly anything in creds for 'veterans'. 
  • Allow us to pick the reward we want from tier rewards
  • Allow us to get multiples of the same reward.  I have no need for the 2x3 forma but would like more than one umbra forma per 2.5 months for example.  If you're worried about power creep put a restriction on how many umbra forma we can have in a 10 week cycle.
  • Give 'veterans' something to pick up from creds... if I'm lucky I might be able to use the creds I get on hildron and maybe wisps alt helmets if they're put into this rotation but there's no guarantee that we'll see their alt helmets this cycle. 
  • Ideally, while I doubt this will happen, change the system to be closer to plague star where everything is in the 'creds' store, give us LOTS of missions to pick from and allow us to play as much or as little as we want. We can then just 'buy' what we want when we want it instead.  If you play more you get more 'stuff', 'veterans' won't be forced into doing things for no reason and newbies can farm to their hearts content.
  • Increase the 50 standing per captured wolf target or add in some creds as well.  Increased spawn rates on 'starter' planets would also help newer players get standing.

 

Side Note/Annoyances linked to Nightwave:

  • No audible cue for the wolf capture targets, would be nice imo.
  • I still have not seen the Wolf, although I've seen the stalker a LOT in the same time.
  • The Wolf has a drop chance on weapon parts which would be fine if we could find him....we need to first see the wolf.
  • You say the rates will increase, they're too low to start with imo.

This pretty much says it in far better detail then I have. Overall nightwave is not objectively bad but can use some QoL tweaks and adjustments

Edited by Cuchullin
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Could you just make every tier reward Wolf Creds and put all the current tier rewards in the Cred shop? Or get rid of creds altogether and just treat it like standing. 

I also wish there was a way to catch up, or maybe just let the acts stack up. I don't see why the previous weeks missions have to be removed when the acts refresh.

Overall I like the new system, I just think it needs a few tweaks. 

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A few meager thoughts...

- As with some others, I don't understand the friend/clanmate requirement, it truly serves no purpose. Those who have friends that play already likely play with them anyway, those who don't will have to add strangers as temp "friends." Pointless. And for that matter why is solo playing such a terrible sin that it must be punished at every single turn?
- A 60-minute survival is prone to disconnect problems and the like, even if you can keep going for that long otherwise. And the "no life support modules" is just too prone to trolling if you don't have trustworthy friends to do it with. Or you just activate one accidentally when fatigued from a prolonged mission, hah! I'd probably have to unbind my X key to even attempt it, just in case. And also can't solo this because there simply won't be enough enemies spawning fast enough to keep oxygen up. Lastly, 5000 isn't that much for an hour's effort (assuming you even succeed on the first try).
- It's a looter-shooter so grinds are a given, but when you put a time limit on it it becomes not just a grind, but also a chore. I played so intensively at the start of the year that I'm in a bit of a burnout - my own fault of course, but as a result now it feels a bit annoying to be on a timer to either do these things or miss out. And since it's a weekly time limit, you can't even fully make up for missed weeks later as the old tasks expire.

That may seem very negative, but I do appreciate the attempt of providing something new. The "practicality" could be better in some ways, and if that can be improved later... well, I guess we shall see!

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My main problems with Nightwave.

1.

Is too many of the challenges are gated behind content I haven’t unlocked yet.

I thought it was said that even new players will be able to reach rank 30 the first time.

I don’t see how. We can’t even complete all the weeklies, not to mention Elite ones.

Even if we could do all the weekly and daily we would cap out at rank 28.

 Unless you want new players to be a leach and get carried through the Elite challenges.

 

2. Lack of wolf creds.

They really shouldn’t be rank rewards but challenge rewards and also drop from escaped prisoners/wolf.

 

3. Lack of rewards for killing prisoners and Wolf.

150 rep for prisoners to low. Do they drop mods on capture(never seen one) or only kill?

For Wolf only seen him once was far to tough for a Mars defense wave 5. Team spent 30 minutes killing him for him to just drop a uncommon mod that I already had 30 of. There are already far to many ways to get melee elemental mods for them to be clogging up his loot pool.

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In my opinion, the best way to improve Nightwaves would be to be able to get both standing and Wolf Credits outside of their current systems.

As it currently is, they are really limited both. If you could get a small amount of standing just by playing what you normally do, that'd really help. The Act challenges can continue to be varying difficulty and be specific. That way, they are more a bonus than the sole source. Same idea with Wolf Creds. Ranking up would give a nice boost but you can get them outside of it.

All in all, I think the core of the system is good! Just needs tweaks on progression to make it not feel like a second job and, as a result, be draining when playing!

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Posted (edited)

I hate repeating myself, but it needs repeating, that the fundamental structure of the acts are a downgrade to the straightforward mission structure of Alerts.
Alerts had potential to be made more story-driven, by giving more context, like the pirate radio intercepting a distress call, finding intel of the whereabouts of high value targets, all of these tie together with Capture, Rescue, Sabotage, Spy etc etc mission types.
There's massive narrative dissonance with why Nora cares and rewards standing to you for collecting mods, slotting statues, scanning objects, killing x enemies with fire, doing a sortie with a buddy-- Why is this important to learn more about an escaped prisoner? And it feels so menial, arduous, shallow, insignificant.
And it's unrewarding, a promise of learning more, a promise of earning more (if you keep working on it and don't take too long breaks!), nothing happening for weeks.
Again Alerts just rewarded more straightforwardly, and missing one didn't elicit that FOMO because they had less stakes, but here, with the season aspect of Nightwave, it being there constantly reminding you with it's fleeting nature, puts manipulative pressure on a player.
Alerts needed work but they had promise, I don't know how these house chores can be made more impressive.
Only thing I can think of is.
1) Remove time limit of 10-ish weeks, make it a thing everyone works through in their own pace.
2) Reward creds with each act completed and not on only every few tiers.
3) Just, get alerts back to complement this.
4) Nora shouldn't be so blatant about her not telling us anything, holding out on us, and toying with us with these checklists that are so removed from any narrative significance for weeks.

Bonus ideas:
Nightwave should be like a Plague star bounty like multi stage structure of finding clues, hunting around the solar system for convicts, getting clues to their whereabouts, getting from them pieces of a puzzle to how to bring the Wolf out, maybe have initial fight with him, he runs away -

Spoiler

like Excal Umbra did

  - And we keep fighting him until we defeat him at the end of our series long stages up our tiers. Payoff for story.

EDIT:
It's not that everyone is criticising not having access to every toy immediately and think new and casuals should have the same "elite" rewards, but that how it is built currently, the linear tiers, require new & casual players to get to the same place elitists want to achieve in the same time frame, just so that they can have enough creds for their offerings, that do nothing for the elitists who already have everything offered there.

Edited by SnuggleBuckets
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