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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

I really enjoyed nightwave but I do feel for the people that are stressed out worrying they won’t get everything they want or feel like they’re missing out by not getting the crazier challenges like the 1 hour survival.

Maybe have the more extreme challenges only reward players with an exclusive sigil and a Trophy/Noggle for their ship. Insane challenges are just fun because they exist, like the “Mile High Club” achievement in COD (#teambrad), but it sucks when it feels like a barrier to progress, so I get it.

Another option, set a par for every rotation of challenges that’s more achievable. If you hit par every week your guaranteed the top of the reward tier and the more ambitious and time rich players can aim higher in order to prestige.

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Reddit post on this topic. A ton of good feedback there from many players. 

- You need 70% of each week's rep to hit max rank in 10 weeks. Not sure where 60% was pulled from. 

- 10 weeks is likely too short. 

- Elite weeklies are weighed too heavily at 11% of each week's rep each.

- Elite weeklies are also frequently unfun. 60 minute survival for 2/3 elite weeklies is a poor choice. Honestly 60 minute survival always sucks to me and ruins the Bute sized nature of Warframe. 

- Forcing friendship is so pointless. If your friends play Warframe you already play with them when you can. No one is making new best friends due to these challenges. People are adding strangers and then never talking. 

- Dailies are near useless despite being what engages players daily. Add more than one daily per day. 

- Having little to no choice on what challenges to do makes it feel forced and chore like. 

- If you are out of town or away from your computer or otherwise incapacitated it is really easy to be too far behind. There is no catch-up mechanic at all. Fortnite for instance never expires weeklies. 

- There's a point where you realize you can't hit max rank based on your playstyle or skills. In a game based on collecting this is off-putting. I've seen several players say it's killed their desire to play. 

- Wolf creds are far, far too scarce. You can only grind for them after max rank and that is likely near the end of the season. For new or midgame players many items are going to be unbuildable. Or if you focus on nitain you'll lose access to customization. Wolf creds seem geared towards new to midgame players. Maybe make some wolf creds come from dailies. Encourages daily play and helps the new guys. 

It's a cool system that is so close to being perfect. One more week of terrible challenges and people will likely check out. Please act quickly. 

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There's a good reddit thread going on with the suggestion that weekly challenges shouldn't expire during the course of the season. Dole out those challenges on a weekly basis, but at least let people catch up to a challenge they either didn't have time for or couldn't do.

I think the "Daily" system can be left in as is, expiring after three days, but as is, someone who has to miss out on a week's worth of challenges for life reasons (vacation, work, whatever) is going to come away feeling uncertain about how far they can progress (despite the promises of 65% completion to get to rank 30).

I do think that the Elite challenges should be difficult, but as implemented there's a little inconsistency in it -- I'm not sure killing 100 Eximus Enemies is really that elite, it's just a time consuming thing that happens as you play. The friend/clan requirements are a cool idea to try and encourage people to play nice with others, but it's such an easy system to game by becoming friends for the sole purpose of getting the challenge done and then never talking to or playing with that person again, but it also puts the onus on people to bother doing all that if really want they want to do is just play in their own little bubble.

Another idea is you could let people pick their challenges -- almost like the daily tribute system when you get multiple logins. On the first login of the weekly reset, present a variety of challenges to people and let them choose the ones that suit how they like to play. Do it in tiers so they have to pick a specific quantity in each tier so everyone is able to earn the same weekly standing, but at least they can look at that and go "you know what, I'm not doing a 60 minute run anywhere, I'll take the (hypothetical) 'Complete A Level 30+ Capture in Under 2 Minutes Solo' challenge).

Finally, in terms of the rewards, I would suggest taking wolf cred packs out of the standing ranks and instead dole them out with each rank as you progress. It's 300 wolf cred in total, so every time you rank up you get 10 wolf cred. (I'm assuming a system like this is already in place for the prestige levels.) Obviously that would mean replacing those rank rewards with something else, but it would really help feel like you're actually earning something with each rank in terms of the wolf cred store -- and I think making that feel more valuable is going to be extremely important to the success of this, as it's the one reward type that people have some agency over.

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My son told me to suck it up and get it done cause he didn't want to be raised by no slacker.

Point being, people will never be happy no matter what DE does. This is a weekly challenge. It's supposed to be difficult, it's suppose to challenge you. Wouldn't be a challenge otherwise.

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5 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

I have to agree, 1-hr on a survival is boring when camping is ideal strategy

Do you have to use the ideal strategy?

I mean, it's possible to go over an hour solo with Wukong. No AoE damage, no Nekros, no camping.

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I feel like people forget that you don't have to do every challenge to fully complete the season. There's a significant leeway (especially in this first one) so you can pick and choose. Although, I feel like these challenges are not balanced correctly in terms of the standing rewards (3 zones of eso compared to the 60 min survival without ls).

What I want to suggest is a system that has a hard cap of standing per week (let's just say 50k), but players get to pick from a long list of randomly generated challenges ranging from easy (pick up 10 rare mods rewarding 1k) up to something that can be possibly be more time saving, difficult and rewarding in standing (something like complete ukko in 30 seconds or less for 10k). Veterans get their challenges that can be more time efficient and far more rewarding while people who aren't up to the challenge are given another option that allows them to hit the cap albeit a bit slower.

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6 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

 

- There's a point where you realize you can't hit max rank based on your playstyle or skills. In a game based on collecting this is off-putting. I've seen several players say it's killed their desire to play. 

 

How about increasing your skills or adapting your playstyle? You basically don't want it to be a challenge and think anyone should be able to get it, might as well give us the rewards to our inbox instantly and skip everything else.

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Posted (edited)

So here's my deal, I play this game solo, I'd love for my friends to play this game, but they don't. I have 30+ years of gaming behind me and I've done the clan thing multiple times and it is never fun enough to be worth the effort.

I do not need fake "internet friends"

So I play solo. I'm not a "casual" player or an "inexperienced" player. I'm MR26, and I have everything, all potatoed in my inventory. I have tried everything except PvP and forced teaming junk like the trials (good riddance) The only interesting reward in Nightwave for me is the Umbral forma, and maybe the cosmetics (I'm not generally one to mix in the grineer aesthetic with the Tenno/Orokin aesthetic) and the MR from the Wolf Sledge (Joy, RNG invasions...).

Now there are 3 things that DE are doing that make Nightwave especially problematic, some part of Nightwave, some just systemic that contribute.

  1. Warm body checks on high worth challenges: This just sucks, no game should ever say "you must have X people regardless what you can do by yourself" compounded by slapping 5k on these, making it really really easy for a solo player to be right on the cusp of being unable to get the actual valuable rewards. If you really must jam people together (Seriously don't, if the content is more fun in a group people will group, if it isn't then you are just annoying people) how about: "5K: Do thing, 1K: do same thing with a friend"
  2. Ignoring scaling: Tridolon hunt can be solo'd, but only with gear that requires you to have already run it ad nauseum and have a monster lanka riven. 4xGroups can virtually sleep through it if they are only interested in doing 1x3 in the night. This means that a solo player is effectively locked out. If you scaled health/damage/adds according to group size even a little, this wouldn't be an issue.
  3. Bad scaling that doesn't fit the challenge. The opposite problem, you scale down the number of enemies so a solo Kuva survival is virtually impossible to get to 60 mins due to a lack of LS, even taking Nekros. Even with top-tier weapons with rivens. No danger of dying, I just can't keep up with the life support because of the spawn rate.

This adds up, meaning that a solo player is on the cusp of not being able to get the rewards, because DE have carelessly shrugged and said "you must team" by action and omission of action.

That feeling of "You must do this right now of you lose out" gets worse the more problems you have with the 5k challenges, be it warm body check or dad scaling, that increases anxiety and the desire to just flip the table and leave.

This then means that I'm scrambling for every daily challenge wondering if this is the week that puts me under water, wasting weeks of work.

And this makes me hate Nightwave and dread logging into the game.

This system feel claustrophobic, and unforgiving. If you have a fixed durations like that with tight-and-finite ways of getting "resources" to the goal, it is always going to feel like a chore rather than a choice.

So what are the easy fixes:

  • More available standing: If you want to lock 5K a pop behind dumb warm-body-count-checks, don't put us on the borderline of failure for rejecting that nonsense, have a couple more 5ks, that aren't or a 5k and a couple more 3ks or just a lot more 1k dailys, to reduce the pressure. You have "prestige" for the overachievers anyway.
  • Be more upfront: Right now I simply do not trust that you have thought this through, that's hard to say for a founder vet, but I'm not going to play "simon says do this mission" for 10 weeks because maybe you thought that solo players should be able to get these critical new build pieces.

Examples of things you could have been upfront about:

  • Have you budgeted in your 60%-65% needed complete for which ones are functionally locked for solo players, can you guarantee it's reasonable for a well equipped solo player?
  • Do you promise not to slip PvP in there?

I really do empathize, of course you want to build community, of course you want to reward people doing 5x3 eidolon captures a night, of course you want to give people a reason to run long endless missions. I'm really glad you've realized that alerts didn't favor people who played the game they favored people who could drop their real life at a moment's notice to play warframe, and that was super toxic to anyone with a life. even for matching time-playing. I really like that you're being more upfront with numbers and progress, that you can make slow actual progression, rather than being at the mercy of RNG (meaning that a significant number of players have to work 2,3,4,5,6 times harder for the same reward and have plenty of play session where they make zero progress to their desired goal, because somehow you think that the casino thrill of opening a relic is better for the game)

But,

Don't, introduce a critically important build tool (that we are expecting is going to be rare as balls) then place everyone else on the razor's edge of failing because you didn't think through the numbers and their impact, including on player trust. Where did that 60%-65% number come from, was is justified by looking at the activities of the player base how many hours and how often you'd be forcing them to do, or was it chosen because it "felt right"?

This is our time for relaxing, please don't make it (more of) a chore.

Edited by SilentMobius
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The problem I have with friend/clan challenges are how they are worth the most standing. 

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Posted (edited)

My group just did the survivals this morning and we loved them. We finally have something worth doing. This is a multiplayer game not a single player game and shouldn't be adjusted for people who refuse to look for someone else to play with, even if it is for a moment. My suggestion would be to add a 4th category that includes these harder challenges that aren't meant for everyone to be able to do. Kind of like the alert from a few years ago where we had to do a melee only interception against level 150 enemies.

Edited by Silverton
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Honestly, Im not sure I'd be happy with -any- adjustment to the structure.  Its the overall concept I dislike.

There are lots of things to do in Warframe, but whats great is I can usually pick what Id like to do and focus on those portions of the game, then trade or market place with others that DO enjoy those game portions.

I want to be able to skip missions I dont want, and focus on what I do, just like Alerts. Allow the mission types to rotate regularly, but keep the rewards buyable.

I also really dont like the mandatory grind that puts the rewards on a 10 week time schedule gated by rank,  Just put things in the list, let us buy what we want, and rotate them each week.

Mandatory grind is unfun.

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Not meaning to convolute the system further, but 'tiered' rewards could be an option for some of the harder challenges, so endurance runners and people who especially liked one or two challenges in particular can double down on that challenge for some flexibility.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Silverton said:

Kind of like the alert from a few years ago where we had to do a melee only interception against level 150 enemies.

Phoenix Intercept: Escalation.

Was certainly an interesting Tac Alert.

Edited by DeMonkey

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I've played over 5 years now and have all helmets but man it would suck to be a new player.  35 cash for one helmet is to expensive!  

The old system would have 3-4 different helmets per day allowing new players to quickly customize.  Hell, the really old system had stats on these helmets equivalent to eximus mods.

Now a new player may get 1 helmet every few days at the expense of something he needs like an aura mod or a nice cosmetic.  

However, this forces him into playing certain missions, it's not a sandbox game anymore.  You are forced to play xx invasions, xx syndicate missions, xx bounties or whatever when you may already be maxed on all of these or want to work on something else.  

I think the bounties, invasions, and syndicate missions are excessive.  Why not put a cap of 3 on each?  9 is way to many!  I have everything from plains, and duplicate decorations.  It's a waste if my time to go there.  These need to be more universal.  Why not complete 9 missions?  Then it's more like the sandbox game we fell in love with.

The survivals are way to long and open themselves up to trolling or stupid mistake (what if someone clicks life support without holding kuva on accident at 59 minutes).  20 minutes is reasonable for endurance, just bump the level up and make it harder.

I like the rewards.

I like the random capture targets.

I like the feeling the world is alive and new things happening, but this system seems bad for both new and veteran players. You guys gotta stick with the sandbox feel and allow players to explore not forcing us into missions we don't want to play.  

My son said no to playing with me after this update!

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1066489-my-kid-said-no-to-warframe/?tab=comments#comment-10559107

 

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I did the 60 minutes kuva challenge and at least for me and my team, it wasn't hard. But it also was the LEAST fun I ever had in WF, second to that April's Fool 100 minute lvl 100 infested alert some years back... It felt like a chore, and the non-NW mission rewards were awful...getting a Stretch or Serration as rotation reward at like minute 35 or 40 in the Kuva Fortress felt...not so rewarding. The total kuva I got was 7800, that also made me realize what a bad source of kuva the survival is. It felt odd that we get 1000 points for spraying one glyph, but one hour of survival only gives 5000? Maybe 40 minutes could have been enough?

Many daily and 3k acts are more open ended, and can be achieved in multiple mission types of our choosing. That's great! Some elite acts are way more specific and don't leave much freedom..."kill/cap a hydrolyst", there's only one way to do that. "Do a kuva survival of more than 60 minutes without using life support pillars" that's as specific as a riven challenge, not even sorties are so limiting.

I would like to see more freedom of choice on how to gain standing. Yes, we can skip some acts, but you can never know what's in the future weeks, or if you will be able to play in the future, and what if you end up skipping too many?

We can never recover missed points, and that's also quite a big problem. Any new player or old returning player that starts in the middle or end of a Nightwave season won't get enough progress, no matter how much time they are willing to spend playing. And I think you said that alerts needed to go because they forced players to play when they didn't want to? Maybe there could be weeklies that don't expire for 2 weeks or a month or something similar?

For a system that will be the new basic activity in Warframe for new and old players alike, it feels way too constraining... If I ever missed an alert, I was a little disappointed but I could always get another in the future, without losing anything...

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The ayatan one instead of fill 5 have it be 3 that sounds fair to me.

The friend challenges kill right off maybe keep sortie but only that one none else

survival at max 30mins

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6 minutes ago, Ely.I said:

How about increasing your skills or adapting your playstyle? You basically don't want it to be a challenge and think anyone should be able to get it, might as well give us the rewards to our inbox instantly and skip everything else.

If you miss a few weeks you can't complete the ranks as the system is currently designed. And to get even close you could never miss a single bounty for the full cycle. A new player starting out has zero shot. It's just math. 

It should be about commitment and being a regular player, not being someone with tons of excess free time who can easily sit for 60 minutes. A lot of these challenges just aren't fun to the majority of players. And when you do something you don't enjoy just because you feel you have to, it's literally a chore. 

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8 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

....You guys gotta stick with the sandbox feel and allow players to explore not forcing us into missions we don't want to play....

This right here.  The best thing about Warframe is the way to play and the way I advance has been MY choice.  Even the endgame has been what I want to make of it.

This is forced.

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5 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

If you miss a few weeks you can't complete the ranks as the system is currently designed. And to get even close you could never miss a single bounty for the full cycle. A new player starting out has zero shot. It's just math. 

It should be about commitment and being a regular player, not being someone with tons of excess free time who can easily sit for 60 minutes. A lot of these challenges just aren't fun to the majority of players. And when you do something you don't enjoy just because you feel you have to, it's literally a chore. 

Not everything needs to be accessible for new players. I have committed 5 years already to the game how about a little challenge? 99% of the game is accessible to new players, I don't mind if this isn't, increase your skills, adjust your gameplay, aim to be better. and No 60 minutes is not "tons of time" if you don't enjoy it doesn't mean others won't, I had a blast with the survival challenge. Speak for yourself always.

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Posted (edited)

I enjoyed the survival objectives and thought there was no real issue with them, but this IS coming from someone who has been playing this game long enough to remember the days of doing 2 hour void key survival runs to get as much out of it as I could so........ yeah. I'm personally fine with 60 minute survival missions, but it seems a lot of people aren't so 🤷‍♀️

I'd personally like to see them again, but yeah.

Edited by Soup2504
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Posted (edited)

honestly I like the old old alert system better but I like the tiered nightwave rewards but I do not like how we acquire nightwave syndicate faction.

The nightwave challenges are too time-consuming on top of an already grind a time-consuming game which used to be fun. Forcing us to do weird challenges makes the game tedious and not fun.

As a father-of-two, full time worker,I  have limited play time. I'm also an end-game player. I enjoy doing kuva ,sorties, PVP ,and new game content.

Forcing us to do 10 other syndicate missions or 10 cetus missions is just a waste of time and very boring.

 

I would like to see us passively gain nightwave faction by completing missions various level missions can reward various levels of faction and there be a daily cap or weekly.

Edited by (PS4)The_WR3CK
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Posted (edited)

As much as I love the reward track, we're far too dependent on it for Creds, and they don't come frequently enough. I would suggest adding a small amount of Creds to each challenge, and leave the reward track for the main bonuses like the themed cosmetics.

I would like to say though, as has been said before, the addition of slots as a free-to-earn item is an excellent move.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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you can sugar coat it all you want, the fact is those daily/weekly challenges meant to be done by the progressed players for some extra rewards on the side.

those are not alerts, those should not have replaced the alerts.

both should exist, coz each serves a certain function.

plus, they are not so new player friendly.

let's see how many will be really putting effort on the nightwaves system as it currently is in 1-2 months time from now, especially out of those who are satisfied by it right now.

most probably, a big portion will be so burned out by it to a point they won't even be checking the new week's challenges, due to many reason.

i've done all of those in the past, that's how i reached to mr26 and almost everything owned in game, all focus schools maxed with overflow by a lot of millions to each, lots of rivens rerolled, all syndicates maxed and extracted what i wanted out of them, moas, amps, kitguns and the list goes on and on.

i do not wish to do them all over again just so i can reach to a certain reward.

i want new content, not content which forces me to go back to the things i've done already many times over and got all burned out by doing them, btw

and i know this is how all players are thinking, even those who upvote the new alert system, but let's see for how long it will last, for how long they will keep doing it.

coz this system, apparently, replaced the alerts and it is here to stay, it is not something seasonal or for a month and it is gone.

have fun with that, have fun getting burned out by doing the same things you have already done a gazillion times over.

this was the progressed player's aspect.

the new player's aspect is that around half of those alerts cannot even be done or they are a nightmare to be done, which btw do not even seem as alerts to me at all, but anyway,

DE, think this through, bring back the old alerts alongside with the nightwave challenging system and have them both up and running.

and adjust both of them a bit so they will be enjoyable for all kinds of players, old, new, casuals, hardcore and so forth.

We love you and all, i always supported you, but when i see something not being good, efficient, effective and convenient, i will not sugar coat it, i will say my piece.

thank you.

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