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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Posted (edited)

A problem with this system is that it's difficult for DE to come up with fair challenges for everyone.
Currenlty, difficulty of a challenge largely depends on the equipment someone has.

I have an idea...

What if players could earn a bit more standing if they use less mod capacity on their warframes/weapons?
This way, players can choose for themselves if they want to risk a mission with a weaker build and get a bigger reward in return.

DE could add a few challenges like this to nightwave to have a bit of an experiment with this.

Main benefits of this are:

  • It creates an incentive for players to challenge themselves more
  • Players can still choose how difficult they want to make a challenge
  • Players still have a lot of freedom which equipment to use

Of course people can always choose to let them carry themselves by others, but that's not a big deal I think. It's only meant to create an incentive for players to seek more challenge.

What do you think?

Edited by Koekiewollie
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Posted (edited)

Lots of players in my clan are getting burnt out chasing these NW challenges. It's just not fun being bottlenecked into a playstyle. That's why different people are arguing and dissatistfied over each different week of challenges. We need OR challenges, many more challenges to do, and just excuses to play lots of different playstyles instead of being forced into someone else's style of grind. 

 

EDIT: DE if you want players to explore your options, leverage one of the biggest parts of the game, your community. If we are able to explore challenges in our tastes, we'll push other players to join us in doing such activities because we're having fun with it. Not some gated standing behind text that feels like a chore.

Edited by (NSW)mrEkli
Added edit note.
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It's not just burn out, it's the perception that Nightwave gives of the direction DE is heading.  One where daily check ins and alertium go from being things you can choose to miss out if you don't care to where you must participate in a 10 week standing campaign to get necessary things to continue playing the game - Nitain is an obnoxious hindrance in the new system. 

Standing in general is a so-so system at best, one whose enjoyment is intimately tied to the fun of the tasks done to gain that standing.  But when tied to daily standing caps even that mitigation of fun tasks driving it is gone by forcing you to play at the pace dictated by those caps not at the pace dictated by your own enjoyment.  I quickly decided I would forgo all of the syndicates because of the first taste of daily standing caps and meaninglessly repetitive tasks with Simaris.  But the daily caps would make it drudgery even if the tasks were not so boring to do in the first place - the game is not letting you play at your own pace.

PoE's rep grind only reinforced this feeling when I finally engaged with it to build a 223 amp - the daily standing caps made it extremely unfun to engage with it, spoiling both the current day when I had time and was having fun by capping me, but also spoiling the next day when I re-engaged with the game only to be reminded I had to grind out my PoE rep quota for the day.

But all of that was not a problem - the rewards from syndicate rep can be traded, so if you don't wish to play that system, you can just organically play the game and trade any good drops you get to buy the stuff you want from other players (I did purchase a 1000 plat purely as a way to say thank you to DE).  I thought this was brilliant design - a good way to allow for different types of enjoyment within the one game. 

The new Nightwave system doubles down on standing and takes it in even newer directions that don't bode well long term.  The daily standing cap is replaced by time-limited standing sources which may seem similar but is made much worse for the player by two new additions to standing as a means to force people to engage with the game at the game's terms:

  1. The standing has limited validity - it will stop being useful in 10 weeks when the current story ends and a new story is begun with its own new standing currency.  That it may again be valid in a year or two when this is re-run is quite irrelevant, the problem is that you have a forced engagement system whose currency is invalid for large periods of time - the majority of the time in fact when looked at over a period of say a year or two.
  2. Standing is earned from time-limited tasks where skipping a week or two is no longer just delaying your goals by a week or two but will remove that week or two's currency forever from your reach, limiting what can be earned by you. 

The if you don't play, you don't earn argument that seems to come up a lot in the discussion of Nightwave and it misses the point here - if I don't play for a few weeks, I don't earn rewards, yes.  But if I pick up the game and play I earn exactly those things I would have earned by playing those two weeks.  That is not true of Nightwave - and it is even the point of the design of Nightwave in the first place to make a hard distinction between how long you play and when you play.  It is trying to make you play every week and every day if possible in a much more direct and forced way than even the standing caps do.

Nightwave by itself has many problems.  But Nightwave as an indicator of where the game is heading is a much bigger problem.

Don't double down on standing and forced play.  Give your players the flexibility to play what they want to and when they want to and they'll keep coming back.

It is still incumbent on you to come up with fun tasks to do - the 1 hour Kuva Survival is obviously fun to many.  But you need to come up with fun rewards and motivators too, not force you to engage by taking away the ability to play elsewhere in the game (Nitain again).

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My two cents:

1. I have a lot of endo-poor friends who are now hoarding unfilled ayatans. These poor people are hurting for endo and staring longingly at the four or five unfilled endo sources they're having to keep in case the ayatan challenge comes around again. Five is too much - consider knocking it down to 3. Many people spent hours grinding missions with a catabombing limbo, only to still fail that challenge because of bad rng. 

2. I personally loved the survivals, but that's because I happen to have a 4-forma tank nekros and a godly amprex riven. I had fun the first time, and the second... After that, with so many newer clan members asking for help, I got quite tired of them. I also had very little time to work towards my own goals each night, because such a large portion of the warframe player base isn't quite equipped for that last 15 minutes. 

My armchair suggestions for how to make improvements to problems like these:

1. Give us choices. Give us a choice of 5 elite weeklies, and tell us to pick any 3.

2. Allow things like the hour survival to be cumulative - that way, I can do one whole hour at a time and enjoy myself, but my clan mates can do 3 20-minute runs and still be fine. 

3. Readjust the wolf cred economy. New players, who are precisely the ones who rely on this system for nitain and auras, have to wait two or three weeks to get a few wolf creds. You could either make everything cheaper in the cred store, or give out more wolf creds. I might further suggest doling out creds more often, even if the quantities are smaller. Give out at least a few every week, so that new players can at least grab a nitain pack in a pinch. 

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On 2019-03-05 at 6:10 AM, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the eximus challenges, poped up where there was eximus stronghold sorties, u had no excuse lol 

Maybe you would like to take 2 minutes and try really hard to think before you open your mouth and stick your foot it in. I dont have sorties available and further more I dont  play everyday unlike some basementdwellers. 

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5 minutes ago, Spam661 said:

Maybe you would like to take 2 minutes and try really hard to think before you open your mouth and stick your foot it in. I dont have sorties available and further more I dont  play everyday unlike some basementdwellers. 

you dont have second dream completed?  seems like a you problem :3

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I feel like we don't get Wolf Cred often enough lol. Can we perhaps get a few Wolf Creds for ranking up our nightwaves?

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20 hours ago, Loswaith said:

alerts gave the sense that there was a lot of stuff going on in the universe

Agree.

Nightwave specific alerts would be interesting. Hopefully this will be considered for the next series.

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I loved what you've done to the rewards system. The Wolf Credit and the arrangements for different mission types is amazing. So far, I only have one issue I ran into over the weeks:

  • Daily Challenges - I wish we could have more daily challenges to aid those sorts of players who either only have enough time to play Warframe for a day, or for those who happened to complete all the challenges of the week and would really like to either get a head-on or catch-up before the series is over.

Great job, regardless, and I hope the system keeps improving.

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55 minutes ago, Ratthakrit05 said:

I feel like we don't get Wolf Cred often enough lol. Can we perhaps get a few Wolf Creds for ranking up our nightwaves?

Yes! I need them more frequently. Perhaps every level up we get 25 Wolf Creds?

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21 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Alerts would be great to return as well.  Even back in the early stages alerts gave the sense that there was a lot of stuff going on in the universe, and you couldn't help everyone (the biggest loss with them no longer about)

You finally put one aspect that is missing from the game into the words I just couldn't find. Indeed, the Origin System feels deader than a door nail now. No DJ gimmick is going to fix the overwhelming feeling of that.

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Posted (edited)

DE probably put a ton of money into developing Nightwave. In order to introduce players to try NW, they compelled it. Without forcing participation, many players would likely have ignored it.  Truth be told, it exposed me to aspects of the game that were new to me.

That said... I pay to play this game with both time and money.  The purpose is fun and entertainment. It is not to take on another chore. Being compelled to do things to get essentials (like nitain) is completely uncool.

DE should use the carrot, not the stick. Forcing this path is a fail in my opinion. Many people who pay to play (as in, those actually paying DE's expenses and salaries) often have jobs and other obligations. This game is supposed to be entertainment -- an escape, not a chore.  This tactic of forcing compulsory grinding could drive me away from the game if it continues to be the ONLY way to get some essentials.

Players who have endless time to grind can say what they want, but they are generally not the ones paying the bills for the servers, bandwidth, salaries and other expenses that make this all work.

Edited by ZeroLifeSpan
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13 minutes ago, ZeroLifeSpan said:

DE probably put a ton of money into developing Nightwave. In order to introduce players to try NW, they compelled it. Without forcing participation, many players would likely have ignored it.  Truth be told, it exposed me to aspects of the game that were new to me.

That said... I pay to play this game with both time and money.  The purpose is fun and entertainment. It is not to take on another chore. Being compelled to do things to get essentials (like nitain) is completely uncool.

DE should use the carrot, not the stick. Forcing this path is a fail in my opinion. Many people who pay to play (as in, those actually paying DE's expenses and salaries) often have jobs and other obligations. This game is supposed to be entertainment -- an escape, not a chore.  This tactic of forcing compulsory grinding could drive me away from the game if it continues to be the ONLY way to get some essentials.

Players who have endless time to grind can say what they want, but they are not the ones paying the bills for the servers, bandwidth, salaries and other expenses that make this all work.

I never thought of it like that. Interesting, the game does feel like that. With this in mind, I feel that since I have such a busy schedule I may be at a disadvantage in Warframe several months from now on with Nightwave like this. Orokin Reactors and Catalysts being rarities with no way to accelerate back up to speed once I finally have time; I really enjoy this game, but I don't want to be punished for something outside of my control.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, SnowWarFr said:

I never thought of it like that. Interesting, the game does feel like that. With this in mind, I feel that since I have such a busy schedule I may be at a disadvantage in Warframe several months from now on with Nightwave like this. Orokin Reactors and Catalysts being rarities with no way to accelerate back up to speed once I finally have time; I really enjoy this game, but I don't want to be punished for something outside of my control.

Don't get me wrong.  This is a FANTASTIC game.  DE has done amazing things! However, for people who have to work and/or can be interrupted at any moment by really important things during online multiplayer sessions, setting a timer that throws away 6/8 progress or requires a full hour is very limiting. Some people can only play when they can play, making some of these objectives nearly impossible. 

Also, this game can be a REAL challenge for new players. How can a newbie get nitain under this system?  I can imagine 30k into wolf levels being a nearly insurmountable task for a new player. This to get a requisite ingredient to simply build the next weapon or frame. That just seems silly for something that is meant to be fun.

 

[ and DE, if you are reading this... why does it say initiate when I'm a 'Silver Hunter'? ]

 

Edited by ZeroLifeSpan
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Posted (edited)

Thank you DE for Nightwave, its an overall improvement to the game. Great Idea! Of course there are a few things that need adjustment

1. Dont let it be a one time event! Keep it cycled like every 10 or 12 weeks. That way nobody misses out and new players/returners who cannot finish some/many challenges now have something to look and work forward. It also ensures that most people (casuals) will be satisfied because they can work at their own pace towards the rewards. If you know you dont have time for reaching rank 30 this time = no problem! you can just plan for the next cycle or the overnext.

That way ist doesn't feel like a duty/chore. Its important that you are not feeling forced to play those challenges.

2. Dont let the Wolf credits expire, let us keep our (hard) earned Wolf credit contingent so if we dont have time to play in the next nightwave series we can still buy occasional Nitain! Im MR26 so I dont need alot from the wolfcredit store. But new players and returners do! If you forget to turn them in you are screwed, if your internet breaks down you are screwed, if your PC breaks down, you are screwed,.. e.g. Let all players take over their Wolf credits from 1 nightwave series to the next ones. => satisfied players

3. Challenges:
3.1 Survival/Defense: 1h is too long! Unless you are relativly new to the game or dont play warframe that dedicated and therefore havent aquired the proper mods it is not a real challenge. It is just a time sink. Make it 30 minutes but HARDER! I would say a mixture between ELITE Sanctuary and Survival. High Spawnrate, also behind you, so you cannot CAMP boringly at a choke point but have to move/fly around This also ensures more teamplay (if you can do it solo you are even more of a pro), if mobs can spawn behind you with lvl 200 you need Stunners. => CC Warframes finally have a point again! And raise the mob level drastically in this 30 minutes. Start normally and maybe end at level 200?300?400 at the 25 minute mark?

3.2 Ayatans: already covered 5 was too much 3 is fine

3.3 No Clan/Teammate Challenges. We have many soloers or ghost clans. Not having that kind of challenge, doesnt hinder friends to still play the challenges together. So no harm done by removing this "challenge"

3.4. 8x Fortuna Bounties was too much! Its a huge timesink and boring ontop. Why not let it be 5x Fortuna bounties for 5.000 standing?

4. Alerts: Keep the Nightmare Mod alerts. It a player is online at the proper time for the right mod he needs, why not let him do an alert quickly instead of having to go trough all RNG Nightmare planetary nodes. It is still luckbased but it does not kick the alert system completely out of warframe.

5. Nightwolf credit shop:
In the future add more buyable items to the Wolf credit shop. Im sure many players have ideas what would be good possible additions.

---------------------

Overall I can say im enjoying the nightwolf system. but if you could adjust above points it would be more relaxing. But its newly implemented therefore Cheers everyone!

Edited by _Keniji_
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3 hours ago, ZeroLifeSpan said:

[ and DE, if you are reading this... why does it say initiate when I'm a 'Silver Hunter'? ]

The forum ranking is based on posts not your in game Mastery rank.

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Hey, so I dunno if this has been brought up yet in these past 35 pages, it probably has, buuut...

Why the unholy hell does the Wolf of Saturn not give any heckin' Nightwave points? Like at all?

I've had him show up TWICE now, both times the chonky bastard has taken an age and a half to kill, and both times I've gotten nothing for my trouble except Tempo Royale, which I've had since the event it was introduced in. Some standing would have been nice. Like I dunno, maybe 1000? 500 at least? Come on.

How the hell have people run into him enough to have his hammer already?

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After almost two/three weeks after this update I will report my opinion on the new system of what I liked and did not like.

What I liked were the daily challenges, elites and weekly elites. They were what they were missing and I'm loving it!

What I did not like was to put cosmetics and resources already known within this system and we are afraid to spend credits because next week may appear something new. I'm not buying nitain extract just to put those credits together and up front to be able to buy something that I still do not have. I think the nightwave needs to have new and own items. And the alert system needs to come back. Whoever is new to the game will have a much lesser chance of being able to win an orokin or reactor catalyst than before they appeared in the alerts and were a great help to beginners and veterans alike.

I think we need to add more credits to the ranks or give extra credits when we can capture fugitives wolf like 15 credits for example.

Alerts give a good life to the game and a feeling that many things are happening in the universe. In my humble opinion, alerts are important and give life to the game!
 
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Posted (edited)

I don't like one thing about Nightwave. This to me feels like I am being told specifically how to play the game. I am being given a chore to complete, with no real benefit for me, and I have a constant reminder in the lower right corner of my screen breaking my immersion at all times. When I do happen to complete one of the nightwave challenges, I get yet another immersion breaking reminder. 

Perhaps I am just at the point now where its time Warframe and I part ways. This started with the addition of the operator, and has slowly continued. The general direction seems to have shifted, and is heading in a direction that I do not wish to follow. 

Edited by Mos-Eisley
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I have enjoyed nightwave but this week i have non elite challenges just sitting there....rare gems and rare fish require faction...did these need to be rare?. Ive only been playing for 3 months and its difficult to work up two syndicate factions, 2 free roam city factions...operator focus all at the same time. 50 to 100 gems instead of 6 rare that requires surah faction ...or 6 rare servofish that also requires 3rd tier faction...essentially takes newer players out of tiering up. Espicially when these type of challenges are all put in at 3k reward...i have built gara. I completed war within...the fishing or mining are thing i do.not to mention all these factions have daily standing caps...meaning if i did devote more time to the faction to get rare ...the challenge would be well expired

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I feel like the old alert system could have been adapted for Nightwave. Currently, outside of the challenges and rewards (which are spot on- gets players out and trying things they might not engage with normally), but the Wolf of Saturn Six itself feels like... a high school classmate that you fell out of touch with and just met briefly in passing at the grocery store. Pleasant, but not really engaging. 

Instead of having the 'wolf pack' as just an occasional spawn in regular missions, you could have alerts filled with nightwave enemies. For example, lets assume there is a hypothetical "robot rampage" nightwave. You could make robot skins for the 5 or so common infested enemies (ie- a reskinned charger that looks like a hyena robot) and just put some alerts with those reskinned enemies. The alert would give the same 150 or so standing seen with the capture of the Wolf's crewmembers. And maybe have characters like the Wolf of Saturn Six act as stalker enemies within those alerts. 

This kind of process would allow players to directly engage with the faction demonstrated in the nightwave, and see them as a potential problem, rather than just as some passerbys they can catch for a bounty. Additionally, it would require relatively few additional resources (since it is just a skin for a few common enemy types). And honestly... I like alerts since they gave me a random thing to do- I am bad at finding just a generalized 'snack' level activity to keep myself amused. 

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4 hours ago, Loswaith said:

The forum ranking is based on posts not your in game Mastery rank.

Gotcha.  Thanks for squaring me away on that. 🙂

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Posted (edited)

Since we already have non syndicate factions like Simaris, I question what the point of this new system is.  Compared to having a daily mission and simply grinding rep to get what you want in the syndicate's store, Nightwave seems like a huge step back in terms of mechanics.

Edited by Holonomic88
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