Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

yeah why play game at all in that way of thinking....

[Horyzon]

47 minutes ago, Bigflufy said:

I feel like no one properly addressed this point so I'm going to give my thoughts on it

I don't think the exclusion of a large part of the player base is arbitrary at all, it encourages players who are not at max rep or don't have the gear for it to continue playing the game and grind for it. If you're arguing that you can't get things like umbral forma or exclusive mods without reaching high nightwave levels, then that's moving away from the tridolon and profit taker bounty specifically and more to the topic of umbral forma forcing players to do nightwave. 

In terms of the no real gain to anyone else part, I think that things like encouraging players to do profit taker and tridolons is healthy for the game as it gives variety, tridolons and profit taker are different experiences to the standard missions in warframe. Players are constantly asking DE for more content and ngihtwave is a way to get players doing existing content that they may not have reasons to do otherwise but still get satisfying rewards nonetheless, if the player doesn't enjoy said content they don't need to complete every challenge to get all of the nightwave rewards.

To sum up I think the inclusion of profit taker bounty and tridolon cap is good game design as it encourages players who aren't at the level to continue playing the game and get to a level where the fights are accessible and doable, Its beneficial to veterans who can do these fights as it gives more variety to gameplay.

 

 

Well thank you for taking a crack at this. Although my brain is demanding sleep now so I'm not entirely sure I'll be up to the task of defending my point. But let's see what I can draw up to put off sleep some more.

 

1. I would argue weekly challenges like Profit Taker are a punishment for players that have not been playing the game long enough, rather than an incentive. I don't think this is merely semantics, as the distinction is an important one imo.

An incentive might be something like non-vaulted Prime frames. "Hey, that frame you like? There's this shiny, cool looking version with maybe some forma already on it. You want it, don't ya? Work for it!" That is what I view as an incentive.

This is a punishment imo. Not Old Mate with Fortuna? Not in range of getting there in <7 days because of daily rep caps? Well F you then. You're not getting these points. And you never will because it's a time-limited event. And as a consequence the rest of the event will now be less rewarding for you.

If this were permanent content added to the game like a new faction you just grind up rep for, I would have no issue with the Profit Taker being one of the possible challenges for it, and I would in that scenario agree it is an incentive as something to eventually work towards. But that is not the case we have here.

 

2. Yes, certainly getting things like the Umbral forma or event-only mods will be made far more difficult by inability to complete these high point value tasks. That's definitely true, and I suppose that would be why the flaw in this design is worthy of complaint imo. But that is not the focus of my posts here. Currently I'm mostly arguing that a weekly task like this is inherently flawed because it excludes many players from even attempting it. And I do still maintain that exclusion is mostly arbitrary. There was no need for them to designate something that requires the max rank with a faction before you can even start it. And there's not even any weak "for the lore!" reason since Nightwave as far as we currently know has absolutely nothing to do with Solaris United. Not that I would think that's a good reason, but we don't even have that.

 

3. Here again, I think it's more of a punishment than an incentive due to the fact that the event is time limited. I alluded to the Trilodon kill in my initial post, but truly I thought that one was acceptable. It was questionable, but at least it was somewhat possible for people who weren't set up for it to try to get it done. And I agree that it is good for the health of the game to push players towards these end-game activities. 

As it stands, why do we kill Trilodon? Well because.. you get stuff that makes doing Trilodon easier? Because you can make your warframe and operator even more overpowered, and/or sell the loot? Ehh? 
And why do we kill Profit Taker? Uhhh... ummm... because boredom? 

So yes. I definitely it's correct to add more incentives to those activities. But I feel this a wrong way to go about it. I think the right way would instead be to add permanent content which by its nature cannot be immediately accessible to newbies, but once those newbies put in enough time, they too can enjoy that content. That's again the distinction I draw between incentive and punishment.

 

In summation, I would pretty much agree with you entirely if Nightwave were some permanent faction which required these things as part of its standing progression. But, because it is instead a time-limited event, I view these as punishments via what you will miss out on, and not incentives you can try to work towards--because you can't work towards a timed event that has already ended or will end before you can hope to complete it.

I hope that made some sense. I think I should go to sleep now.. so if you wish to continue this discussion, I will likely reply tomorrow.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Horyzon

[AndouRaiton]

1. You can literally get a pack of 3 fully built forma from the nightwave standing rewards.

2. Forma blueprints are really god damn common so no one will struggle in getting them. I would have ended up with 5 in the time it took to open 10 relics today (which only took less than 30 mins because it was a capture mission and RNG hates me) if i wasn't playing with others.

3. Most importantly, not everything is aimed at Veterans; some stuff needs to be aimed at newer players to help them progress and know what to do.

Also,

26 minutes ago, AdriXL said:

As I asked in another post, related to forma waste, would it count if you destroy a room in dojo and rebuild it?

As you take a forma back and then use it again, it would count... But haven't tried yet.

No that doesn't work you have to put it on a piece of equipment as it needs to be consumed (as it can't be gotten back).

[HellVOps]

Weekly Nightwave rant...Every Monday, stay tuned.

 

Edit: After some thinking, I recall DeadbyDaylight got daily challenges, and if you don't like what you got you can reroll the challenge ONCE per day, maybe that's the "fix" for Nightwave?

Edited March 18, 2019 by HellVOps
"Fix"

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

6 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

1. You can literally get a pack of 3 fully built forma from the nightwave standing rewards.

2. Forma blueprints are really god damn common so no one will struggle in getting them. I would have ended up with 5 in the time it took to open 10 relics today (which only took less than 30 mins because it was a capture mission and RNG hates me) if i wasn't playing with others.

3. Most importantly, not everything is aimed at Veterans; some stuff needs to be aimed at newer players to help them progress and know what to do.

Also,

No that doesn't work you have to put it on a piece of equipment as it needs to be consumed (as it can't be gotten back).

as sayed find not equal to all palyers... 1 forma would be more balanced to all palyers. tnx for reply on dojo related thing.

Edited March 18, 2019 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[Chewarette]

Because Veterans who have formatted everything they wanted have a problem with Formas ?

Yeah, sure.

Anyway, not everything should be aimed at pleasing you. The 3 forma stuff displeases you, while the Profit Taker one displeases someone else. Deal with it.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Chewarette

[Jiminez_Burial]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Umbra Forma is not cosmetic.

~70% participation rate is way too high for something so frequently dumping out objectives many players can't, or just don't want to do. Never mind the fact that you have to be there to do them. Not everyone is a highschool student with a terrible attendance record. Not everyone wants to work an online job.

Ok I genuinely forgot about the Umbral Forma so I was wrong on that point.

However, I would then say "What person who can't access Profit Taker needs an Umbral Forma?"  And I don't think your argument about time requirements is very accurate since apart from the sorties challenge (which requires 5/7 days free) or the 1 hour survival challenge, they haven't been really time consuming.  I knocked out all but the gilding challenge this week in far less than a day.  If you aren't willing to commit enough time to a looter shooter in order to get non-essential rewards, then maybe choose other games.  I know that seems harsh, but the concept of opportunity cost exists for a reason.  It's the same reason I don't play EVE Online even though I'd love to.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

If only they'd recently released a frame we could forma a few times... oh wait.

[Horyzon]

1 minute ago, Starfreak911 said:

Ok I genuinely forgot about the Umbral Forma so I was wrong on that point.

However, I would then say "What person who can't access Profit Taker needs an Umbral Forma?"  And I don't think your argument about time requirements is very accurate since apart from the sorties challenge (which requires 5/7 days free) or the 1 hour survival challenge, they haven't been really time consuming.  I knocked out all but the gilding challenge this week in far less than a day.  If you aren't willing to commit enough time to a looter shooter in order to get non-essential rewards, then maybe choose other games.  I know that seems harsh, but the concept of opportunity cost exists for a reason.  It's the same reason I don't play EVE Online even though I'd love to.

I believe you also forgot the event exclusive mods, which may or may not turn out to be any good, but they are not cosmetic and if they are good, will be highly desirable and probably a huge PITA to get otherwise. 

There's also other not-just-cosmetic rewards are imo quite significant: such as potatoes of both colors, and even things like crucial Auras such as Corrosive Projection are now tied to this Nightwave system. So no, it is not just cometic. Not that I would view that as a strong counter argument, since I think cosmetics are pretty darn important in Fashionframe. 

"What person who can't access Profit Taker needs an Umbral Forma?" 

Literally all of them. Umbral forma is at this point a completely unique reward that has no other means of acquisition. So yes. Literally everyone should want this.

Everyone's free time availability is different. Some registered losers like myself have plenty of free time and I knocked out that 1 hour survival with no problem at all. Other people might only have one or maybe two free hours a day they can devote to gaming--if that. Assuming everyone has the same amount of free time you do is quite the flawed argument indeed.

That "choose a different game" comment could easily be its own separate debate, one I might find interesting to participate in, but right now I need sleep. So for right now, I'll just say that's probably a bad business model to push away your customers if they can't commit to marrying your game before they go on the first date.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

14 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Because Veterans who have formatted everything they wanted have a problem with Formas ?

Yeah, sure.

Anyway, not everything should be aimed at pleasing you. The 3 forma stuff displeases you, while the Profit Taker one displeases someone else. Deal with it.

i do agree in general with you. but why to waste time and resources? but as players in game we should be pleased and bit balanced for all not for some. so MR 2-5 may not do this taks and miss standing in  opposite to higher ranked players. and why 26-27 have to spend 3 forma on things they dont need just becaouse they have it. as sayed need more balance for some tasks, why not get despair drop from stalker or spend 50p in market tasks? should 'we deal with it'? i dont think so... 

Edited March 18, 2019 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[Fiveel]

1 minute ago, Horyzon said:

Bad business model to push away your customers if they can't commit to marrying your game before they go on the first date.

Easy Nightwave challenges are pushing hardcore players away, argument denied.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Lodeion

[Veridian]

Can we please already have a toddler forum section, where all the whining children can go and throw their tantrums away from the rest.

General has become a joke at this point.

[Horyzon]

2 minutes ago, Lodeion said:

Easy Nightwave challenges are pushing hardcore players away, argument denied.

Bro I don't think I'm HARDCORE enough to waste my time talking to you.

Come back when you mature past the point of thinking you should be entitled to having your opinion heard when you clearly pay no regard for that of others.

Or.. just don't come back. That's cool too.

[Chewarette]

5 minutes ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

i do agree in general with you. but why to waste time and resources? but as players in game we should be pleased and bit balanced for all not some. so MR 2-5 may not do this taks and miss standing in  opposite to higher ranked players. and why 26-27 have to spend 3 forma on things they dont need just becaouse they have it. as sayed need more balance for some tasks, why not get despair drop from stalker or spend 50p in market tasks? whould 'we deal with it'? i dont think so... 

But there isn't any challenge that will please everyone at once. Unless you want all challenges to be yesterday's daily ? Complete one mission ?

Should I have complained when I had to kill enemies with Fire damage, making me take Ember even though I wasn't in the mood to play Ember ? No, I did it. I could have avoided it, the same way I avoided the "10 perfect Conservation" two weeks ago because I didn't want to deal with it.

Do the challenges you want, avoid the ones you don't. But as a veteran, don't tell me there isn't any weapon you actually possess that could not fit forma, either for general usage or just because you don't care. I'll probably put another forma on Hildryn, maybe take advantage to finally forma my Trinity (was always lazy about it), or I will simply put a forma on whatever mastery fodder weapon/warframe I kept since day 1. Maybe on Equinox, as I won't be player her anymore in a few days.

This challenge will make some low level newbies ask to their clans "what is a forma", and that is a really good point.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Chewarette

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

Just encountered the Forma and Gilding challanges. I dn't like these personnely and feel they don't fit this system.

Modular weapons are a realitvily hefty investment. They take reputation and some rare resources. They then ned leveling before guilding. While this is by no menas impossible I don't think it is suitable for a weekly chanllange. This is something I like to plan ahead and undertake at my own pace. It is also unfair to players that have already made all the modular weapons they want to use and grind for MR. Meanwhile newer players are going to find this difficult to complete. As said it it cost intensive. If a player finds at a push they can craft a modular weapon it seems wrong to pressure them to make whatever they can rather then wait and make what they want.

I feel forma suffers a similar flaw. I personnaly veiw forma as something to be planned rather then done on a whim. If I want to meangingfully use a forma it is probally disruptive. Something I regulary use is going to become weaker. Meanwhile I could burn three forma on stuff I don't expect to be using soon. This feels too gamey and wasteful. However this is liable to be the only solution for vetrans with nothing that needs forma. Finally we again have the problem of pressuring new players to use something quite valuable without giving it proper thought.

I know it's been addressed but will mention it anyway. I don't like the with a friend challanges either. I don't currently have access to Profit Taker and I don't mind missing out due to that. I also have an empty friends list. I do mind missing out due to this. I don't want to game the system by adding someone for one fight. I like the in-game match making and want to use that.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

General topic is difference in opinion not children whining. We dont need to agree but we can state our tauts on some things.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

General topic is difference in opinion not children whining. We dont need to agree but we can state our tauts on some things.

Not lately it isn't 

[TurboWonka]

Very simple feedback from me.
Make Quests rewarding player besides event score.
+3 Wolf Credits for Daily, + 5 for a weekly, +10 for elite weekly.
For example, finishing 5 dailies will let you buy 5 nitain.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TurboWonka

[Fiveel]

3 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

Bro I don't think I'm HARDCORE enough to waste my time talking to you.

Come back when you mature past the point of thinking you should be entitled to having your opinion heard when you clearly pay no regard for that of others.

Or.. just don't come back. That's cool too.

I am hearing your opinion. Your opinion is "I don't want to do this, remove it!" and my opinion is "I want to do this, keep it!"

If this act stays in the game, you can safely skip it and still all earn the rewards - prove me wrong or point me to a post that proves me wrong - and if it gets removed, I will not be rewarded for my effort, and the game will be harmed because Profit-Taker will be less rewarding to kill, making the effort that I put into unlocking less meaningful.

It's not such a big deal, but I don't see a good reason why I should be harmed.

[Jiminez_Burial]

3 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

I believe you also forgot the event exclusive mods, which may or may not turn out to be any good, but they are not cosmetic and if they are good, will be highly desirable and probably a huge PITA to get otherwise. 

There's also other not-just-cosmetic rewards are imo quite significant: such as potatoes of both colors, and even things like crucial Auras such as Corrosive Projection are now tied to this Nightwave system. So no, it is not just cometic. Not that I would view that as a strong counter argument, since I think cosmetics are pretty darn important in Fashionframe. 

"What person who can't access Profit Taker needs an Umbral Forma?" 

Literally all of them. Umbral forma is at this point a completely unique reward that has no other means of acquisition. So yes. Literally everyone should want this.

Everyone's free time availability is different. Some registered losers like myself have plenty of free time and I knocked out that 1 hour survival with no problem at all. Other people might only have one or maybe two free hours a day they can devote to gaming--if that. Assuming everyone has the same amount of free time you do is quite the flawed argument indeed.

That "choose a different game" comment could easily be its own separate debate, one I might find interesting to participate in, but right now I need sleep. So for right now, I'll just say that's probably a bad business model to push away your customers if they can't commit to marrying your game before they go on the first date.

HAHAHA, I admit when I'm wrong but this is not one of those instances.

I said "and even then the later tiers are cosmetic".  "later tiers".

Umbral Forma IS unique, but that doesn't mean low level players NEED it.  You said it yourself, "Literally everyone should want this" - "want".  Want and need are very different.  What I meant by that was implied but I'll state it outright here.  Anyone who wants fully end-game meta min-maxed builds that uses all high mod capacity cost mods will need it.  That is very specific.  Even a build that just mostly uses high mod capacity mods won't NEED it as peoples current builds prove this.

"Everyone's free time availability is different".  Yeah I didn't state otherwise.  I'm saying that if I can pretty much 100% the weekly challenges in roughly half a day, then getting 70% of the weekly challenges completed in an entire week doesn't seem like that much to ask.  If I had said everyone's free time availability was the same, I would be saying that everyone has 100+ hours a week to spend gaming (as that's what I have since I am still job searching as a result of having a particular diagnosis and I only need 4-6 hours a night on avg sleep).  To expect that to be true of everyone is to an extent so stupid that I wouldn't be surprised to see the name of anyone using that argument appear in the Darwin Awards.

The distinction I think that most people miss with this argument is that DE probably designed the different tiers of nightwave to be appropriate for different player types, and adjusted the required time commitment to suite.  A single design mechanic/decision doesn't have to apply to just one desired outcome.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

5 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

But there isn't any challenge that will please everyone at once. Unless you want all challenges to be yesterday's daily ? Complete one mission ?

Should I have complained when I had to kill enemies with Fire damage, making me take Ember even though I wasn't in the mood to play Ember ? No, I did it. I could have avoided it, the same way I avoided the "10 perfect Conservation" two weeks ago because I didn't want to deal with it.

Do the challenges you want, avoid the ones you don't. But as a veteran, don't tell me there isn't any weapon you actually possess that could not fit forma, either for general usage or just because you don't care. I'll probably put another forma on Hildryn, maybe take advantage to finally forma my Trinity (was always lazy about it), or I will simply put a forma on whatever mastery fodder weapon/warframe I kept since day 1. Maybe on Equinox, as I won't be player her anymore in a few days.

This challenge will make some low level newbies ask to their clans "what is a forma", and that is a really good point.

i do agree. and i got what i want and forma it xD so i dont want to get another 3 forma spent for task while 1 can do job. also if you need to max rank paracesis you will put 5 not 3 forma for instance. as sayed need bit more balance in some tasks and things. why not build modular weapon instead of guild modular weapon? if dont have any it is same to you, if you got it all it is like boring thing to do an spend 3 forma in adition to it. 

[Veridian]

7 minutes ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

General topic is difference in opinion not children whining. We dont need to agree but we can state our tauts on some things.

You're not stating a "thought". Your post is written and reads like a hissy fit, much like a lot of the topics as of late.

[Veridian]

Just now, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

also if you need to max rank paracesis you will put 5 not 3 forma for instance.

Why thank you, I was wondering what to use forma on.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

5 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Not lately it isn't 

guess you have a point... you can have petition for whining room, maybe community will support that. 

[Horyzon]

Lode. You're wildly misrepresenting my opinion. To say the least. Go fly a kite dude.

 

Starfreak, I need some sleep to be able to give you a proper reply. So I'll get back to you, m8.