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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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On 2019-03-04 at 4:47 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Nightwave is here in all of it’s Nora Night-backed glory, and there has been a lot of back and forth (both on the forums and internally) about the challenges and how to accrue Nightwave standing. Series 1 of Nightwave is our first attempt at this addition to Warframe, and we want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts and requests. We will be using this thread to gather feedback from everyone on all Platforms! 

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

  • Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
  • Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
  • Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe". 

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark - if you liked it, or didn't like it, comment below. In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall.

Nightwave is still new to the community and we are expecting to see more feedback come as the series progresses - you've only seen a % of all Acts, so as Series 1 progresses we need your feedback on the appearing Acts. We've seen players responding with some possible solutions that would make these challenges more piecemeal, balance the resources needed to complete some challenges, and assess social requirements to get your goodies.

We will be applying what we have learned to Nightwave Series 2 - but can only improve with constructive, detailed posts about what you like / didn't like about acts. Knowing what you like is just as important as what you don't like. 
 

Nightwave so far has been an excellent example of why we should NEVER have synced content releases like this ever again. There are glaring issues with Nightwave that will persist for its first entire season(wolf cred gain pacing & opportunity cost, terrible challenges, content pacing, cost of cred offerings vs amount of cred gained) due to the fact that you are unable to change it, allegedly due to syncing. I don't agree with this at all. It's more painful if bad ideas or bugs have to stay due to content parity between platforms, than if its at least fixed for some people. It's just comical to read something like the last hotfix, where rather than fixing the bug of forma not counting if applied in simulacrum, you just adjusted the TEXT for the challenge to (not in simulacrum.) It's embarrassing and frankly quite dumb. What is there really to be gained from synced content like this? It's not like any of these platforms can interact in any way, nor is it like you didn't go right back to desyncing with exploiter and operation buried debts. This feels much more like a "because we could" decision than anything else.

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Guess I'll chime in here. New Nintenno only about 5 weeks since being found by The Lotus. I've been playing through the game hard and the first week-ish that I was in it had alerts. The issue is that ALERTS weren't bad. They were a weak system for distributing loot that felt too random and/or luck-based in one form or another. Why, though, was that replaced?

I enjoyed the random nature of alerts to give me something to do (honestly if they were in I might not have finished the star chart yet) but why couldn't it have been "themed" alerts or alert-style pop-up quests that just gave you some Alert rep or creds that you could use to buy the rewards directly? The tiers of the rep are nice and rotating those would be fun, but it would give us a method to pick what we did for our creds while also having more options rotating on a more regular basis. Maybe a really hard one would be up for 2 days and give 5k points while the regular alerts would be still really frequent but only give 1000-3000 creds. It'd keep the system fresh, give them a chance to increase wolf spawns in the alert missions to help with that issue, and still let players actually just PLAY the game.

With so little time in-game, I'm almost nowhere in PoE or OV and seeing stuff like Profit Taker means straight-up that I won't be getting that done because it'd be a large focus of my week to even get there (if I did with the rep grind caps even at MR15), but I do enjoy when the game suggests I do something I haven't done before. NW has some good ideas, but it doesn't fill the gap that Alerts used to fill. If I was bored, couldn't figure out what to do, I'd look at what alerts are up and run some. Even those 1k credit ones that are effectively a loss, just because it was a chosen objective to go and do.

There's already enough to do in Warframe, and the benefit has been that you can do what you want at a pace you want, but NW flies directly in the face of this and forces you to either try to do EVERYTHING in warframe at a time or at least feel, however true or not, like you missed out on something you should've done or gotten.

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh..... They can get it for free in recruiting chat if they just ask, can't they? 

Yes and people can also get Ignis Wraith blueprint for free by asking in chat or forums, yet some players still sell it for plat and others buy it.

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2 hours ago, TheFBD said:

This bugs me a lot. It was said numerous times that no changes can be made during the season, only for the next season. But suddenly it is possible! And replacing a challenge with a completely different one is a quite a big change! And this thread with currently 55 pages (no end in sight) is full of requests and complains and reasonable arguments against the ongoing type of challenges. Which as it turns out can be changed! So the way i see it, the possibilities are there, they just don't want to change anything even though a lot of players don't like it. I would've expected that from EA... not from DE.

I'm sure they don't have access to make HUGE changes, like adding different challenges or making adjustments to currently coded ones, without some kind of patch. Which would be impossible to sync to PC and consoles as it is now. But being able to swap out challenges and change the names on them is more than DE implied they were able to do. 

A concern I've had for a few months was how DE's been reacting to Anthem. They seemed visibly spooked prior to Anthem Releasing. For example, the WARFRAMES > JAVELINS bit on the whiteboard, little jabs in same devstream, making huge swaths of short term content to occupy weekends during and shortly after Anthem's release, Nightwave itself.  Now that Anthem's on failing life support, I'm concerned that DE may sigh a breath of relief knowing that what was projected as a possible competitor is out of the picture. Competition is a pretty important driver in any market, and without any legitimate competitors, Warframe may end up going downhill as a result. Nightwave's been very damaging already and now there are a LOT of cautious eyes watching DE, so how they react and proceed is going to have a very large impact on the players who can still be swayed, myself included. There are a lot of good suggestions and constructive feedback in this thread alone, from concerned voices who want this to work out. I just hope we're not looking at the beginning of the end here.

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I hate apothic, i hate exploration aspect in warframe but i forced to do so.

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So, I finished all my weeklies (I'll assume the Index one is just a UI bug, since I did get the exp so I won't do another in case it might be an exploit) and now I was going to continue Formaing my Azima...

 

But I then remembered the "use 3 forma" challenge so I won't, because I don't have anything else to Forma right now.

 

I also have 5 Ayatan statues and got Prime Reach to max, but then I remember the challenge.

 

I also thought of making a Moa, but again challenge, I'm kinda in a weird spot right now because of the Nightwave.

 

I feel it is actively stopping me from playing the game, hopefully it's just me.

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Posted (edited)
  1. Im not a fan of some objectives overlapping riven mod objectives. It incentivises me to hold onto unvieled rivens in order of maxing efficiency.
  2. With the 60 minute survival runs i prefer its cumulative across multiple missions. So we could run 6x 10 minute survivals. I already posted why i think its a bad decision to have 60 minute long survivals in forum posts that were specific to that discussion.

 

38 minutes ago, Drivrius said:

But I then remembered the "use 3 forma" challenge so I won't, because I don't have anything else to Forma right now.

Agree with that one. It just discourages me from forma, potating, catalysts aswell as socketing ayatan sculptures. Im sure theres other modifiers DE can use in place of them like clear a specific node without equipping any mods to warframe weapon etc.

Edited by CarrotSalad

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2 hours ago, Shaderox said:

So essentially like old alters but instead of time dictated, they'd be random to maybe appear after a mission and stay up or an hour or two if you don't do it right away.

Uh... So not time dictated, just... time dictated? 

 

2 hours ago, RocketAdumb said:

It's just comical to read something like the last hotfix, where rather than fixing the bug of forma not counting if applied in simulacrum, you just adjusted the TEXT for the challenge to (not in simulacrum.) It's embarrassing and frankly quite dumb.

Right so let's say that there's a cooking oil spill in the aisle of your local supermarket. And you're in charge of getting something done about it. The ideal thing to do is to get it cleaned up. While you are waiting for the maintenance crew to get the industrial degreaser you hav and two options, put out the "caution slippery floor" signs, or don't do that and let people keep falling flat on their faces. Which would you choose? 

 

Pretty sure that we're all hoping that they'll fix it, but many of us realise that it's not always a case of saying "begone bug" and waving the cursor around the screen. 

So in the mean time until it is fixed (if it even can without creating a whole new arsenal system that is unique to the simulacrum), they put in the very easily included warning to let people know what's going on. And that is what you call embarrassing and dumb? How silly. 

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I'm satisfied with the current system and don't actively seek ( OR oppose ) any major changes to it. Certain challenges are more troublesome than others ( for example: I would have to go out of my way to first build something to then gild it ), but I've yet to find anything that bothers me all that much. That being said...

 

... something I often see is that players feel compelled to do every single task, no matter how much they despise the activity - because they don't realize that they can skip a few without forfeiting high level rewards. I believe you should try to communicate this important detail a little better by changing how Nightweave presents itself: have it just be a weekly package of weighted tasks, and if you do enough of them you receive a "check mark" for that week. You gain access to seasonal rewards based on the amount of check marks you collected. You also gain "Wolf Creds" ( or whatever their future equivalent may be ) at the end of a successful task, so people that go above and beyond and complete more than what is necessary will still be rewarded with something extra.

 

This proposed system is extremely similar to our existing one, but here's what changes:

-> Focusing on weekly check marks instead of the overall progression means players will be able to easily identify if they've done enough for that week. People with little time and few opportunities to play will have a clear goal ( get that check mark for this week! ), and likely won't feel like they're forced to do absolutely everything. People with a lot of free time on their hands can't "overachieve" ( because you can only get 1 check mark per week ), meaning they won't be able to set unrealistic expectations for the rest, causing everyone under their level to panic. However, while these "would-be-overachievers" won't be able to flex on regular people by progressing at a much faster pace, they should still be happy because as I mentioned, each and every task immediately yields "Wolf Creds" ( or "Nightweave currency" from now on) upon completion.

 

-> Upon realizing that they won't have to do every single thing on the list of tasks ( "I already go the mark for this week, I can chill out for now" ), players will surely appreciate this newfound agency. As weeks go by and they get to experiment for themselves, the community will come to see Nightweave as less of a malicious whip and more of a benevolent motivator. As the public perception of Nightweave shifts, players will likely come together, discussing and evaluating the set of tasks for the given week, resulting in "difficulty lists" on forums or "recommended tasks for this week" videos on youtube - providing further guidelines for those that need it the most.

 

-> As with any temporary event, there will be those who join in too late. With this system in place, latecomers will be able to clearly tell what they can and can't get.

 

Because progression is now measured by weekly check marks, a few changes should be implemented:

 

-> An encounter like the Saturn fugitives can't function exactly the same as it does now, since there is no use for the "standing" they provide ( as direct overall progression abolished ). They instead should award something universally useful ( for example, endo ) or the temporary Nightweave currency.

 

-> The Nightweave shop will have to be rebalanced as well, as the amount of a currency a player may have on them can vary wildly ( players that only do the bare minimum vs players that do everything ). Nailing this new shop is crucial, as it can't be too lucrative ( else players will start feeling like they're missing out ) or too disposable ( otherwise players that put in the effort will leave feeling unrewarded ).

 

-> Because players are no longer expected to do every single task and this fact is communicated clearly by the Developers, the tasks themselves are allowed much more freedom as well. There should be a diverse set of (relatively) creative tasks available every week, so that players may experience all sorts of content and don't burn out.

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The more I think about it, the more I think current issues are a lack of communication.  Reddit seems to think that every single challenge is required for rank 30, rather than 2/3rds.  In-game information would probably help calm people who don't do the math.

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Why do you force players to do things unpleasant for them. I started playing warfram as a game about space ninjas, and not about space miners, fishermen of fermiers and so on. For me, it is a joy to go through hardcore missions in which I need to destroy a ton of enemies, but for me to dig, fish or catch game is hell. I have a suggestion, if you want to cover the interests of all players, it may be possible to offer them a choice in the form of several mission options for one reward. For example - a weekly reward 3000 a player can choose which actions he will perform: 1 - to catch a fish. 2 to complete a defense mission. 3 Do the trick with the help of a k-drive.

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13 hours ago, krausser666 said:

The weekly revolving around doing 3 sabotage missions with all caches collected doesn't work in Hive(Eris/Naeglar).

because its sabotage and not hive

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

because its sabotage and not hive

It also doesn't work in Syndicate sabotage because for whatever reason there are no caches in syndicate sabotage.

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24 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It also doesn't work in Syndicate sabotage because for whatever reason there are no caches in syndicate sabotage.

it also doesn't work in the sabotage on Jupiter where u have to take a data-mass to the computer first, as it doesn't have caches  

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15 hours ago, (PS4)jaegerbombtastic said:

It is. We did it twice, said completed but we weren’t rewarded the points.

I did it today and got the points, but it still shows as being incomplete. But, I got the points so I am no fussed about the completion being bugged.

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15 hours ago, RedSchuhart said:

thanks for changing the 40 waves defense while I was 30 minutes in. got the reward popup but no actual standing...🖕

They changed it because it was broken and people were not getting the standing. I guess they couldn't fix that bug so they changed it.

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14 hours ago, krausser666 said:

The weekly revolving around doing 3 sabotage missions with all caches collected doesn't work in Hive(Eris/Naeglar).

I don't think Hive is a standard sabotage mission. It's considered a variant like Archwing, or Fomorian. I probably wouldn't try this on any nonstandard sabotage mission. I'll be running mine on earth so I can try and do the silver specter challenge at the same time

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12 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

imo, rather than removing marathon runs entirely, it would resolve the issue to remove prestige as well as the season expiration date. Endurance runs are fine to have in the corner to do when you have time, it just super duper sucks to have to get them done RIGHT NOW or miss out on S#&$ FOREVER.

I'm not a fan of the marathon runs either, I haven't done a 40+ wave defense since the Void required Tower Keys. I can ignore them and not care about the standing, But this seems like a pretty good Idea if they had 1 of each Marathon run type and had them as one off Seasonal challenges. So they were there from day one until the end and the marathon players could do them whenever they liked and get the rewards once.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Regarding Chroma, yeah he can boost his damage, but you don't need the prime for that. Yes they're a little stronger but if you aren't already maxed out its not as big of a deal as you might think. Take your time and learn the game, and get the better mods. What you're facing is something that stumped most of us at one time or another. Folks will probably help you along if you ask for advice. 

2

Chroma Prime might be easier to get considering the extra parts you have to farm and make to construct him. Although saying that I never checked to see if Chroma Prime required extra parts either. I think like Equinox Prime he doesn't though.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-03-04 at 10:56 PM, Ailyene said:

GW2:

 

Back when it had weeklies and monthlies...  (Yes, that was back in ancient times)

We'd have 20+ choices of challenges seperated into Daily/Weekly/Monthly split between PvE/PvP/WvW challenges and to get credit we only had to complete any 3 of our choice.

There would be 15 options for Dailies (need 3), 6 for Weeklies (need 2), and 3 for Monthlies (need 1).  This gives a lot of options to players while not overwhelming them.  These on average would take longer than Warframe's ones to complete.

Been thinking about this as well. The system was problematic in some ways and they changed it but there's still things to be learned from it. The brilliant part was that it gave people choices. If you can pick from any 6 weeklies, but you get the reward after two, that gives the developers leeway to put in more specific weeklies, and players the freedom to pick those that fit into their playstyle. You had group challenges, solo challenges, minigame challenges, jumping puzzle challenges, challenges for the three different game modes in general (pvp, pve, wvw), lots of variety.

Of course you'd have to tweak the numbers and probably introduce more challenges (some archwing-related maybe? people would complain about that in the current system but if it was optional it would be fine), but it would solve most of the problems. Most players would of course just do the ones they feel are "easiest", but those who like to do endurance runs can do that, those who stumbled upon a lot of ayatan statues can fill those, etc and more importantly it gives the option to avoid things they don't like.

You might even - thinking back to GW2 again - introduce PVP challenges if that fits into your design plans.

Edited by aidschbe
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9 hours ago, Drivrius said:

I feel it is actively stopping me from playing the game, hopefully it's just me.

I can understand very well this feeling. For example, I have very few time to play WF these days and I'm stuck with this crappy nightwave stuff to do instead of doing something I could *chose* to do in the game.

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For people complaining about guilding 

U could have guilded a 500 standing to buy mote amp

Also most of the challanges don't have to be done to get to 24 and umbra forma is not even needed in this game and should be removed 

The fear of missing out bs when u can miss half the challanges and still get the main prizes is ridiculously

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

Also most of the challanges don't have to be done to get to 24 and umbra forma is not even needed in this game and should be removed 

Well, ok. Then, even rivens are not strictly needed. Even cosmetics are not needed at all. Even to forma *all* the weapons and frames is not needed to play most of the content of the game. So...why do we play this game? 😉

Anyway, I agree that umbra forma should be removed from a time-gated crap like nightwave.

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Just now, (PS4)nating51 said:

Well, ok. Then, even rivens are not strictly needed. Even cosmetics are not needed at all. Even to forma *all* the weapons and frames is not needed to play most of the content of the game. So...why do we play this game? 😉

Anyway, I agree that umbra forma should be removed from a time-gated crap like nightwave.

The main prizes r the ones that are gameplay relates, the others after 24 are meant as rewards for trying to do the harder challanges, to show that you didn't just moan about it when 30 is easy

Some People are on rank 20

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

The main prizes r the ones that are gameplay relates, the others after 24 are meant as rewards for trying to do the harder challanges, to show that you didn't just moan about it when 30 is easy

Some People are on rank 20

Harder challenges? Seriously? These are not "hard" challenges, they're only and simply boring to do, expecially if you are *forced* to do them as you are a mr26 guy (me) who does not have much interest in the "gameplay related" stuff you refer to and aims only to the high tier stuff. It's pretty time consuming (yes, I think that the two/three hours to complete all the boring acts ARE definitely too much) and, even if the idea to get some sort of challenges to get something nice/good is not bad at all, I think that it's poorly implemented and reminds me of some sort of generic smartphone game pass.

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