Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[GrimAtrament]

ok so far out of the elite missions this is the only bad one i found Silver grove was a bad questline gameplay wise and you've STILL not fixed the drop rate on the plants you need for the apothics.

Edited March 29, 2019 by hazerddex

[TheFBD]

6 hours ago, random__noob said:

So wait grinding in the past was fun, now it isnt?

There is a significant difference! Sure, grinding for Nidus was tedios and boring and a chore. But there is a goal you will reach eventually. Once you have all blueprints, you don't have to do that grind anymore, you don't have to do it ever again. Want Khora? Grind onslaught until your fingers bleed, then you'll get her and - if you don't like onslaught - you don't have to do it ever again.

Now with nightwave, there will be the same kind of challenges over and over again. How often have we seen "kill amount with damagetype"? How often did we have to do a (or even 5) sorties? How often 3 zones of onslaught? Syndicate missions? You see that this stuff comes back all the time already, and we're not even halfway through it! And do you really expect that the challenges will change for the next season? Not unless we all tell DE: Hey, this is a tedious chore, it needs to be fixed!

So saying that the challenges and the whole nightwave system is ok is very short-sighted. Do you want to settle with doing a sortie, 10 syndicate missions and 3 zones of onslaught every week for as long as you play warframe? And sure, now that one guy who claims "bUt YoU dOn'T hAvE tO, yOu cAN jUsT oPt oUt" will show up again. Yes, we could opt out. But that will lock us out from major parts of the game (not specifcally umbral forma, but mods that are rewards, auras and also all things in the wolf-cred-store, like nitain). And unless you're mr27 with maxed mastery, you will need nitain once in a while.

It would only be half as bad if there would be no unique things in nightwave rank rewards. Take out the unique mods and the umbral forma and it would be improved immediately! 

But there are unique items in there (and probably more unique stuff in the next season _{*cough*omega*forma*cough*}) and wolf-creds expire, hence nighwaves are not something you can grind out and leave behind - unless you already have everything. Nightwaves are argon-crystal syndicates. You will have to grind over and over again because your progress (wolf-creds) expires.

[NezuHimeSama]

Actually, my sample size is perfectly adequate for that assertion. Nothing about that assertion is contradicted by any sample size at all.

It's also not my fault you hyperbolized what I said and turned it into some elitism pissing contest. But, any kind of sensible discussion was never the intention, since you're only here to derail the thread, obviously.

[(XBOX)Tornicade]

12 minutes ago, TheFBD said:

There is a significant difference! Sure, grinding for Nidus was tedios and boring and a chore. But there is a goal you will reach eventually. Once you have all blueprints, you don't have to do that grind anymore, you don't have to do it ever again. Want Khora? Grind onslaught until your fingers bleed, then you'll get her and - if you don't like onslaught - you don't have to do it ever again.

Now with nightwave, there will be the same kind of challenges over and over again. How often have we seen "kill amount with damagetype"? How often did we have to do a (or even 5) sorties? How often 3 zones of onslaught? Syndicate missions? You see that this stuff comes back all the time already, and we're not even halfway through it! And do you really expect that the challenges will change for the next season? Not unless we all tell DE: Hey, this is a tedious chore, it needs to be fixed!

So saying that the challenges and the whole nightwave system is ok is very short-sighted. Do you want to settle with doing a sortie, 10 syndicate missions and 3 zones of onslaught every week for as long as you play warframe? And sure, now that one guy who claims "bUt YoU dOn'T hAvE tO, yOu cAN jUsT oPt oUt" will show up again. Yes, we could opt out. But that will lock us out from major parts of the game (not specifcally umbral forma, but mods that are rewards, auras and also all things in the wolf-cred-store, like nitain). And unless you're mr27 with maxed mastery, you will need nitain once in a while.

It would only be half as bad if there would be no unique things in nightwave rank rewards. Take out the unique mods and the umbral forma and it would be improved immediately! 

But there are unique items in there (and probably more unique stuff in the next season _{*cough*omega*forma*cough*}) and wolf-creds expire, hence nighwaves are not something you can grind out and leave behind - unless you already have everything. Nightwaves are argon-crystal syndicates. You will have to grind over and over again because your progress (wolf-creds) expires.

Uh...so your saying....killing stuff with different mods and weapon types..cramps your playstyle?none suggested opting out of nightwave altogether but just not doing the challenges you dont like.....and solution is to remove rewards cause you dont feel like doing and fu to the ones who do?...its really an extreme take.....what challenges would you like to see?

[(NSW)ForTheGhostsWithin]

56 minutes ago, (XB1)Tornicade said:

Uh...so your saying....killing stuff with different mods and weapon types..cramps your playstyle?none suggested opting out of nightwave altogether but just not doing the challenges you dont like.....and solution is to remove rewards cause you dont feel like doing and fu to the ones who do?...its really an extreme take.....what challenges would you like to see?

My problem is, I don't like 50% of challenges. I hate 20% of challenges. I have to do 60%(or 70%, I don't know, just confirm something, DE).
I like killing stuff with different way. Other than that, meh. And continuous "meh" over months has become torture.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, TheFBD said:

Yes, we could opt out. But that will lock us out from major parts of the game (not specifcally umbral forma, but mods that are rewards, auras and also all things in the wolf-cred-store, like nitain). And unless you're mr27 with maxed mastery, you will need nitain once in a while.

😧

Most of which can be bought, with traded for plat. And the Nitain was never something that you could get unlimited amounts of, on demand. Since it's difficult to continue pretending that there are many people who play regularly but are truly opposed to the vast majority of the game's content, it's really unreasonable to claim that nightwave is going to permanently lock anyone out of Nitain on a permanent basis.

Even if we allow for a completely antisocial newb who can't do any of the elites and only about 5 of the weeklies with 5 of the dailies due to only playing on two days of the week, you're still averaging out at 4 ranks in 2 weeks. 

Thats going to net you quite a bit of nitain, isn't it? So again what you're claiming is not working as far as the math goes. 

1 hour ago, TheFBD said:

But there are unique items in there (and probably more unique stuff in the next season _{*cough*omega*forma*cough*}) and wolf-creds expire, hence nighwaves are not something you can grind out and leave behind - unless you already have everything.

Omega Forma? Sweet, sign me up. I don't even know what it does but heck yes! Of course if it turns out to be something that idgaf about, then I'll be exercising my option to skip those and just do other stuff in the game, like everyone who isn't pretending that we're being forced to play. 

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Actually, my sample size is perfectly adequate for that assertion. Nothing about that assertion is contradicted by any sample size at all.

True. Of course the reverse is also true, since, for all anyone can tell you actually haven't had any interaction with even one person in the game, your claim is just meant to be intentionally misleading, as you're fully aware. 

Nice tactic. 

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It's also not my fault you hyperbolized what I said and turned it into some elitism pissing contest. But, any kind of sensible discussion was never the intention, since you're only here to derail the thread, obviously.

Me saying "I'm super casual and haven't completed everything in the game", before you accuse me of elitism is me trying to claim be more elite than you? This made sense to you, when you wrote it out? Really now? 

Other than that, attempting to derail threads is against the rules. If you are making accusations, you really ought to just make a report and be done with. I understand that making false reports just because someone is disagreeing with you, is also an actionable offence though. 

[D1sTrust]

Just to throw in my rookie take on Nightwave.
At first I didn`t like it at all, but now I think it could grow into something better than Alerts with some changes.

Imo for new(-ish) players Nightwave offers very little reasons to do those tasks.
Early in the game you are still concerned with mundane stuff like credits, endo and basic mods. And you need those instantly.
So my first suggestion would be to add small amounts of those things as instant reward for all Nightwave challenges. Just like Alerts were a good way for new players to gain some extra cash.
I guess most seasoned players would enjoy seeing some sort of (semi-)instant reward as well, maybe through a really tough weekly challenge.

UI visibility ... just as a hint for DE, a friend of mine who started playing after the Nightwave launch didn`t even notice it`s existance. He thought it was just some meaningless advert.

The really positive thing of Nightwave vs. Alerts for new players is that it works better as a tour through the many sections of the game.
 

[NezuHimeSama]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

😧

Most of which can be bought, with traded for plat. And the Nitain was never something that you could get unlimited amounts of, on demand. Since it's difficult to continue pretending that there are many people who play regularly but are truly opposed to the vast majority of the game's content, it's really unreasonable to claim that nightwave is going to permanently lock anyone out of Nitain on a permanent basis.

Even if we allow for a completely antisocial newb who can't do any of the elites and only about 5 of the weeklies with 5 of the dailies due to only playing on two days of the week, you're still averaging out at 4 ranks in 2 weeks. 

Thats going to net you quite a bit of nitain, isn't it? So again what you're claiming is not working as far as the math goes. 

Omega Forma? Sweet, sign me up. I don't even know what it does but heck yes! Of course if it turns out to be something that idgaf about, then I'll be exercising my option to skip those and just do other stuff in the game, like everyone who isn't pretending that we're being forced to play. 

True. Of course the reverse is also true, since, for all anyone can tell you actually haven't had any interaction with even one person in the game, your claim is just meant to be intentionally misleading, as you're fully aware. 

Nice tactic. 

Me saying "I'm super casual and haven't completed everything in the game", before you accuse me of elitism is me trying to claim be more elite than you? This made sense to you, when you wrote it out? Really now? 

Other than that, attempting to derail threads is against the rules. If you are making accusations, you really ought to just make a report and be done with. I understand that making false reports just because someone is disagreeing with you, is also an actionable offence though. 

Do you just ignore context in every thing and try to twist it until it makes no sense so you can blame everyone else for it?

Stupid question, of course you do.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, hazerddex said:

ok so far out of the elite missions this is the only bad one i found Silver grove was a bad questline gameplay wise and you've STILL not fixed the drop rate on the plants you need for the apothics.

I somehow found that I had enough to build one, but there were only 2 of us at the time I was doing it, so I had to go farm some ruk's claw, and we used both of mine with one of his and some random who hopped into the squad got the benefit. Today I realise that way too many people seem to have put it off to the end, so I went and farmed some more and so I have one and I have to get some daylight threshcones, to make another that should go quickly... 

If I can get 3 I'll probably try to take a squad of randoms so they can get the challenge done before reset for the week. 

I took folk fishing too, just because I had the bait stockpiled. 

I'm thinking that if we all pitch in and help one another, we can make it that much easier. And hey, maybe some of the people who are thinking that these are difficult or impossible, might come to realise that they are playing a multiplayer game, and that a lot of people are willing to pitch in if they want to ask for help. 

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

On 2019-03-18 at 5:59 AM, Syasob said:

Just no. Thanks in advance, DE.

That honestly just sounds like you don't wanna put forth the effort to complete it.  For some people, one hour suvival is fun, its not just about you guys getting a challenge you want, its about everyone getting something. That was supposed to appeal to endurance runners, which clearly you aren't,  but that doesn't mean everyone hates those challenges like you do.

[zoffmode]

That crap is boring af. I barely manage to stay awake past 30 mins in these missions. In fact, I did fall asleep multiple times. Ugh.

How about instead of that actually put us in hard missions from the get go. That way it's interesting, exciting... and people who don't have time or patience for useless crap can still complete the challenges. Staying awake in a boring snooze fest for hours is not any mesure of skill.

And if it is forced, I want DE to send me a dose of legal cocaine then. I'm not putting up with this without something.

[Tellakey]

A bad solution is no better than no solution. No thanks.

[sam686]

I mostly do not like one hour long missions, especially when nothing is saved in a middle of mission. The negative of excessively long 1 hour mission: a chance of "Warframe has crashed". Everything would be lost if this happens in solo mode or if not able to rejoin fast enough.

 

[ToolboxMotley]

NO.

Putting some high-level missions in there would be cool, and would cover needing to know the content and build well. Hour-long missions are just obnoxious time-wasters that are ESPECIALLY infuriating if your connection isn't always reliable (which made previous hour-long missions basically impossible for me even though I can handle deadly content quite easily).

As for long Survival missions being unrewarding, that's a problem with Survival missions themselves, not something that should just be forced on players. Arbitrations have a decent system; instead of AABCAABCAABC, the reward rotation is ABCCCCCCCCCC. The pseudo-boosters gained in endless Void Fissure missions are also a good incentive for going longer, perhaps just needing to be more potent. Use those systems, don't just force people to stay for an hour by denying them rewards until that point.

The problem with tying Nightwave standing to these missions is that it's a time-limited reward. It's (relatively) finite. ABCCC reward rotations and stacking boosters are a much more acceptable approach because they definitely result in faster reward gains when you go for longer missions, but you aren't denying anything to those that don't want to take part in such content. Those that don't like or genuinely cannot do long missions are still able to get those rewards, even if at a much slower pace.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ToolboxMotley
Added more reasoning.

[Katinka]

On 2019-03-18 at 11:13 AM, Lodeion said:

I want 1-hour acts because of the positives and people who don't want 1-hour acts because of the negatives should be able to just not do them. See suggestions. Everyone should be happy.

I think the problem here is that not everyone is going to be happy unless everyone enjoys everything.  I know it has been said that you only need 60-65% of each week's standing to reach rank 30 and that you can top up with Saturn 6 Fugitives too but there are prestige ranks.  Apparently going above rank 30 will give more wolf credits which will allow the purchase of more stuff which is especially useful for people who don't have all the auras and alt helmets who now have to hope they have enough credits on the week the item they want turns up on offer.  The large amount of stuff on offer (especially for skin collectors but also free catalysts/reactors) and the promise of prestige ranks encourages people to want to achieve everythign each week.  It doesn't matter that 65% gets you rank 30 because the target is higher than that, the target is as much as you can do because you can't have too many wolf creds because you can always burn the spares on evergreen rewards just before the end anyway.

All that is why I think there should be options on how to complete some of the Acts.  An 'hour long Survival' as one Act and '10 perfect Spy missions' as another will only annoy the people who hate hour long missions and the people who hate Spy, but if there was one Act that allowed either Survival or Spy then I think people would be happier as they'd be able to get the 5,000 in their prefered way without feeling like they were missing out by not doing the other way.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 8:02 AM, random__noob said:

I would like to have a bit more open info on how long we have to get to rank 30, and what happens to the 30 ranks if another nightwave series is implemented. Do we stick to rank 26 for example, and just progress from there? If so, would there be an option to just tackle the second 30 ranks instead of the first? People are anxious to not get some of the parts and rewards they want...

I actually enjoyed the Ayatan Sculpture thing, because I had some of them lying around and was done in a few clicks. But I imagine this one had been a nuisance for many players...

Just avoid making people feel regret or aparently even slight panic every time they consider not doing a nightwave quest.

And a constant influx of Wolf Cred standing after each completed nightwave quest would certainly be more welcome than getting 50 wolf cred on predefined levels. if you want 5 Nitain right now, it doesnt help to know that if you do all quests this week AND next week, you can buy 15 of them...

Not sure if anyone has answered. We have at this point about 6 weeks left. When the event is over your rank resets, Any leftover credits vanish. And a new event with new rewards and new credits starts. It was in all the announcements. I think more detailed info is posted on the news page of this website.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 10:28 AM, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Many people remain silent about things, thinking nothing they say will matter anyway, so why bother? Why risk being ridiculed by people on the forums for needing to "git gud" over something that has nothing to do with getting good. Amongst a whole host of other reasons I could list, none of which are "they're happily playing because they love it."

One thing about forum-goers, is that they generally care enough about the game to want it to be a better game that they go to the trouble of posting at all. It's valuable feedback.

Of course, DE could just bury their heads in the sand and keep releasing content, changing nothing, hoping the unhappy people just go away or "live with it"... (it seems to have worked for other games)

1

Human behaviour is such that if they like something and have no problem with it they will not go looking for a place to give feedback. So it is less likely that they are remaining silent because they are afraid to give feedback. But more likely that they remain silent because they are not concerned about negative feedback, and are just enjoying it as is.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 12:35 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

It's like you don't even understand the basic concepts being discussed. Are you just trolling?

 

No, just pointing out the ludicrous nature of your arguments. it's almost like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Or Sealioning.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 12:38 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Even 60% minimum participation rate for the rest of the game is insanely high. That's the smallest amount of time you can play to get everything, forever. never mind events, content dumps, ect.

But you keep ignoring that because it's inconvenient I guess?

You are not entitled to everything in the game simply because you log in once a week or twice a week. Night Wave is not Gift of the Lotus. If you don't want to put in the time to get the minimum standing needed then don't expect to earn everything.

I think the other major problem besides people not doing the simple maths needed to work out their progress is people see the rewards purchasable with the credits and assume they are entitled to all of them immediately. This is probably the only thing Alerts had that was better. because the nature of alerts was pretty random people only saw what was available when it was available. Now people see all the rewards and demand that they be allowed to have all the rewards, now.

They see Nora's stock changes each week, and expect to be able to buy everything from the shop each week. So they want thousands of wolf credits, and millions of standing.

Sorry but that is not the way it should work.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 1:23 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

The main advantage to the old system was the accessibility of nitain, otherwise all other complaints are nonsense.

That said, you're totally right that players don't "need" everything. 

You can play all of the game's content levels with 0 forma on excal.  Granted, it's easier if you have god tier rivens and more frames to do more stuff and functionally unlimited resources, but that doesn't make it impossible.

This system seems to allow more accessibility to Nitain at rank 3 and 6 your get 50 Wolf Creds, and then again at rank 12.
 
The creds you get at 3 and 6 will buy you 6x5 Nitain. More than most would get in 2 weeks maybe 3 unless they hardcore farm it and wake up to do alerts in the middle of the night.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 5:08 PM, Enialyx said:

The great irony here is that this is a feedback thread. Specifically made by DE staff to hear people's opinions. 

And the DE Defense Force thinks they're doing a service to DE by shooting negative opinions down.

The irony here is that you don't understand that the majority of the criticism has not been valid. it's simply a failure of many to crunch the numbers.

Criticism about things like the Gild/Forma/Spector/Ayatan Activities is very valid.

Criticism because people can't have everything right now this second is not.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 6:28 PM, Ssalem said:

No I don't want to kill the Silver Grove guardians - there's literally no rewards for it.  Also I couldn't come up with a more tedious task in game if I attempted to, like scanning plants

2

Growing power only drops from the Knave Spector. it's only worth 40 plat on PC but is still worth 50 to 100 on Console.

[numanoid]

Everyone I spoke to about the Kuva 1 hour survival challenge commented on how they felt dead inside after the fact. Sort of stopped-breathing like.

[numanoid]

Imo the very concept of challenges is misplaced. The old alert system allowed you to jump into a mission and just complete it for the reward if you are interested, but the challenge based nightwave feels too much like achievement hunting and some old schoolers like me always abhored that, especialy if its something obscure, out of the way like the equivalent of "do a headstand while touching the knee to your nose".

Also, I've been saying this a lot in region chat, but this change feels more akin to cash grab mobile games trying to get in your head, forming a habit of "just intending to jump in, check and ent up and wasting two hours". This is undesireable from a player's psychological stand point. If you want player bonding, dont do it with addiction.

The fact that some challenges are locked away behind gates like Solaris United Old Mate standing is a no go, too. If I am entirely uninterested in certain game content and a carrot pops up that needs me to climb a stair thats too long to reach the end in time, I'm just ticked off. I know it's carrying the "ELITE" moniker, but if the only qualifier is invested time BEFORE the challenge pops up, it's more than annoying.

 

I poured a good amount of time into warframe, but not everyone has the time that is required to complete these challenges. Nightwave is a giant finger to these players, especialy when you need to do 60% of the challenges, including the high rating ones to get to the end tier.

Edited March 30, 2019 by numanoid

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

On 2019-03-28 at 2:06 PM, TheFBD said:

Very obvious, indeed. He's one of the two people heavily trolling and trying to de-rail this thread. I'm ignoring them, so should everbody else. This thread is for feedback about nightwave, and when those two are so happy with it, they should just say it and leave. When there are enough people stating that they are very unhappy with nightwave, hopefully DE will acknowledge that and act accordingly.

According to one WF partners poll, that was 4%. Only 4% not happy. 57% were happy, but thought it could be tweaked a little.

On 2019-03-29 at 3:33 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Doing them in one sitting or no, it doesn't matter. They're still chores to get done with an expiry date to force you to do them when you don't want to.

By your own logic, why not just not do that farm all in one go? The great thing about that content is it was always there. I didn't get nidus right away because it was a harsh grind. Instead, I played those missions when I wanted, because I could. With nightwave, that option is missing. How is that an improvement?

What game modes in WF are not Chores to you? Because it seems like EVERYTHING is a chore.

On 2019-03-29 at 5:10 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

I said being able to pay to bypass the wait or grind is a good business mechanic that allows people to invest time, money, or a mix of both, and enjoy the game to it's fullest regardless of how busy their life is. People with lots of time tend to be children without much money. People with lots of money tend to be working folk who don't have that much free time. Because plat can be traded, and always has to come from DE somehow, having a plat economy allows players with money to buy goods from players with time, making both time and money, as well as any combination of the two, perfectly viable.

1

Yes, but as DE has proven with their reaction to the Kubrow Slot machine. That is not the kind of thing they want in their game. That is not the kind of company they are. They have no desires to be EA or Activision or 2K.

On 2019-03-29 at 11:28 PM, (NSW)ForTheGhostsWithin said:

My problem is, I don't like 50% of challenges. I hate 20% of challenges. I have to do 60%(or 70%, I don't know, just confirm something, DE).
I like killing stuff with different way. Other than that, meh. And continuous "meh" over months has become torture.

Months? Nightwave launched on Feburary 27. It has only been 1 month and 2 days. How have you been playing it for months?