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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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On 2019-03-28 at 8:02 AM, random__noob said:

I would like to have a bit more open info on how long we have to get to rank 30, and what happens to the 30 ranks if another nightwave series is implemented. Do we stick to rank 26 for example, and just progress from there? If so, would there be an option to just tackle the second 30 ranks instead of the first? People are anxious to not get some of the parts and rewards they want...

I actually enjoyed the Ayatan Sculpture thing, because I had some of them lying around and was done in a few clicks. But I imagine this one had been a nuisance for many players...

Just avoid making people feel regret or aparently even slight panic every time they consider not doing a nightwave quest.

And a constant influx of Wolf Cred standing after each completed nightwave quest would certainly be more welcome than getting 50 wolf cred on predefined levels. if you want 5 Nitain right now, it doesnt help to know that if you do all quests this week AND next week, you can buy 15 of them...

Not sure if anyone has answered. We have at this point about 6 weeks left. When the event is over your rank resets, Any leftover credits vanish. And a new event with new rewards and new credits starts. It was in all the announcements. I think more detailed info is posted on the news page of this website.

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On 2019-03-28 at 10:28 AM, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Many people remain silent about things, thinking nothing they say will matter anyway, so why bother? Why risk being ridiculed by people on the forums for needing to "git gud" over something that has nothing to do with getting good. Amongst a whole host of other reasons I could list, none of which are "they're happily playing because they love it."

One thing about forum-goers, is that they generally care enough about the game to want it to be a better game that they go to the trouble of posting at all. It's valuable feedback.

Of course, DE could just bury their heads in the sand and keep releasing content, changing nothing, hoping the unhappy people just go away or "live with it"... (it seems to have worked for other games)

1

Human behaviour is such that if they like something and have no problem with it they will not go looking for a place to give feedback. So it is less likely that they are remaining silent because they are afraid to give feedback. But more likely that they remain silent because they are not concerned about negative feedback, and are just enjoying it as is.

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On 2019-03-28 at 12:35 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

It's like you don't even understand the basic concepts being discussed. Are you just trolling?

 

No, just pointing out the ludicrous nature of your arguments. it's almost like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Or Sealioning.

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On 2019-03-28 at 12:38 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Even 60% minimum participation rate for the rest of the game is insanely high. That's the smallest amount of time you can play to get everything, forever. never mind events, content dumps, ect.

But you keep ignoring that because it's inconvenient I guess?

You are not entitled to everything in the game simply because you log in once a week or twice a week. Night Wave is not Gift of the Lotus. If you don't want to put in the time to get the minimum standing needed then don't expect to earn everything.

I think the other major problem besides people not doing the simple maths needed to work out their progress is people see the rewards purchasable with the credits and assume they are entitled to all of them immediately. This is probably the only thing Alerts had that was better. because the nature of alerts was pretty random people only saw what was available when it was available. Now people see all the rewards and demand that they be allowed to have all the rewards, now.

They see Nora's stock changes each week, and expect to be able to buy everything from the shop each week. So they want thousands of wolf credits, and millions of standing.

Sorry but that is not the way it should work.

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On 2019-03-28 at 1:23 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

The main advantage to the old system was the accessibility of nitain, otherwise all other complaints are nonsense.

That said, you're totally right that players don't "need" everything. 

You can play all of the game's content levels with 0 forma on excal.  Granted, it's easier if you have god tier rivens and more frames to do more stuff and functionally unlimited resources, but that doesn't make it impossible.

This system seems to allow more accessibility to Nitain at rank 3 and 6 your get 50 Wolf Creds, and then again at rank 12.
 
The creds you get at 3 and 6 will buy you 6x5 Nitain. More than most would get in 2 weeks maybe 3 unless they hardcore farm it and wake up to do alerts in the middle of the night.

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On 2019-03-28 at 5:08 PM, Enialyx said:

The great irony here is that this is a feedback thread. Specifically made by DE staff to hear people's opinions. 

And the DE Defense Force thinks they're doing a service to DE by shooting negative opinions down.

frustrated the x files GIF

The irony here is that you don't understand that the majority of the criticism has not been valid. it's simply a failure of many to crunch the numbers.

Criticism about things like the Gild/Forma/Spector/Ayatan Activities is very valid.

Criticism because people can't have everything right now this second is not.

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On 2019-03-28 at 6:28 PM, Ssalem said:

No I don't want to kill the Silver Grove guardians - there's literally no rewards for it.  Also I couldn't come up with a more tedious task in game if I attempted to, like scanning plants

2

Growing power only drops from the Knave Spector. it's only worth 40 plat on PC but is still worth 50 to 100 on Console.

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Everyone I spoke to about the Kuva 1 hour survival challenge commented on how they felt dead inside after the fact. Sort of stopped-breathing like.

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Imo the very concept of challenges is misplaced. The old alert system allowed you to jump into a mission and just complete it for the reward if you are interested, but the challenge based nightwave feels too much like achievement hunting and some old schoolers like me always abhored that, especialy if its something obscure, out of the way like the equivalent of "do a headstand while touching the knee to your nose".

Also, I've been saying this a lot in region chat, but this change feels more akin to cash grab mobile games trying to get in your head, forming a habit of "just intending to jump in, check and ent up and wasting two hours". This is undesireable from a player's psychological stand point. If you want player bonding, dont do it with addiction.

The fact that some challenges are locked away behind gates like Solaris United Old Mate standing is a no go, too. If I am entirely uninterested in certain game content and a carrot pops up that needs me to climb a stair thats too long to reach the end in time, I'm just ticked off. I know it's carrying the "ELITE" moniker, but if the only qualifier is invested time BEFORE the challenge pops up, it's more than annoying.

 

I poured a good amount of time into warframe, but not everyone has the time that is required to complete these challenges. Nightwave is a giant finger to these players, especialy when you need to do 60% of the challenges, including the high rating ones to get to the end tier.

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On 2019-03-28 at 2:06 PM, TheFBD said:

Very obvious, indeed. He's one of the two people heavily trolling and trying to de-rail this thread. I'm ignoring them, so should everbody else. This thread is for feedback about nightwave, and when those two are so happy with it, they should just say it and leave. When there are enough people stating that they are very unhappy with nightwave, hopefully DE will acknowledge that and act accordingly.

According to one WF partners poll, that was 4%. Only 4% not happy. 57% were happy, but thought it could be tweaked a little.

On 2019-03-29 at 3:33 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Doing them in one sitting or no, it doesn't matter. They're still chores to get done with an expiry date to force you to do them when you don't want to.

By your own logic, why not just not do that farm all in one go? The great thing about that content is it was always there. I didn't get nidus right away because it was a harsh grind. Instead, I played those missions when I wanted, because I could. With nightwave, that option is missing. How is that an improvement?

What game modes in WF are not Chores to you? Because it seems like EVERYTHING is a chore.

On 2019-03-29 at 5:10 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

I said being able to pay to bypass the wait or grind is a good business mechanic that allows people to invest time, money, or a mix of both, and enjoy the game to it's fullest regardless of how busy their life is. People with lots of time tend to be children without much money. People with lots of money tend to be working folk who don't have that much free time. Because plat can be traded, and always has to come from DE somehow, having a plat economy allows players with money to buy goods from players with time, making both time and money, as well as any combination of the two, perfectly viable.

1

Yes, but as DE has proven with their reaction to the Kubrow Slot machine. That is not the kind of thing they want in their game. That is not the kind of company they are. They have no desires to be EA or Activision or 2K.

On 2019-03-29 at 11:28 PM, (NSW)ForTheGhostsWithin said:

My problem is, I don't like 50% of challenges. I hate 20% of challenges. I have to do 60%(or 70%, I don't know, just confirm something, DE).
I like killing stuff with different way. Other than that, meh. And continuous "meh" over months has become torture.

Months? Nightwave launched on Feburary 27. It has only been 1 month and 2 days. How have you been playing it for months?

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1 hour ago, Katinka said:

All that is why I think there should be options on how to complete some of the Acts.  An 'hour long Survival' as one Act and '10 perfect Spy missions' as another will only annoy the people who hate hour long missions and the people who hate Spy, but if there was one Act that allowed either Survival or Spy then I think people would be happier as they'd be able to get the 5,000 in their prefered way without feeling like they were missing out by not doing the other way.

Despite the general dislike for them, this is why we have daily and weekly caps. Let's say you gave people double the number of Nightwave challenges per week, but capped potential Standing to the maximum we can do now (43K). People who like the challenges themselves can still DO all of them, but people who don't like specific challenges can avoid them and STILL progress optimally.

Let's run those theoretical numbers. We'd be looking at 14 Dailies @ 1000 standing, 14 Weeklies @ 3000 standing and 6 Elite Weeklies @ 5000 standing, with a cap of 43 000 Standing. Well, JUST all the Weeklies brings you up to 42 000, which is one Daily or a few Fugitives away from the cap. Don't like Elite Weeklies? Don't do 'em, simple as that. Or, if you really are l33t and can do all the Elite Weeklies easily, that puts you at 30 000 standing with just 6 challenges, some of which can be done simultaneously. You gain progression much faster and need only a few Weeklies and Dailies to cap out.

Point being, offering a large number of redundant challenges and capping weekly standing low allows people to pick just the challenges they actually enjoy and ignore the ones they don't.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

No, just pointing out the ludicrous nature of your arguments. it's almost like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Or Sealioning.

I wasn't aware this was a discussion of social justice politics.

Or maybe you're just used to derailing good discussion for personal gain?

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1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I wasn't aware this was a discussion of social justice politics.

Or maybe you're just used to derailing good discussion for personal gain?

What has this to do with Social Justice politics? Sealioning is sealioning. it has nothing to do with politics.

And how have I derailed this thread? Please go into specifics.

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I liked the 1 hour challenge. 

It did force me to wctually think about the enemies and what weapons i brought, as well as interact with other playwrs to form a team capable of going that long. 

Yeah, it had the potential to be boring but we all got on voice chat and were cracking jokes the entire time and we wound up staying longer than needed without realizing it. 

I would like to see those kinds of challenges broken up into 10 or 15 minute chunks though, primarily for players who simply don't have the time or reliable enough connections or systems to complete such a long run. 

Both parties are rewarded for their time equally that way.

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First result when I asked DuckDuckGo what "sealioning" was.

Both you and guzman(assuming you're even different people at this point) have been actively trying to derail any kind of discussion of the problems with nightwave, shifting the burden of bad design and bad presentation onto the player, rather than the developer.

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1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

First result when I asked DuckDuckGo what "sealioning" was.

Both you and guzman(assuming you're even different people at this point) have been actively trying to derail any kind of discussion of the problems with nightwave, shifting the burden of bad design and bad presentation onto the player, rather than the developer.

Ah, So to you when someone points out the flaws and fallacies of a criticism that someone has and explains how the nightwave system works, does the maths and attempts to allay fears about NW, that is derailing to you?

Because bad design is what some call inventory check activities, which both Guzman and I agree are bad.

Not understanding how the standing and ranks work as well as wolf credits and not being able to claim everything now, is not bad design. That is just players not understanding how it works.

Now assuming that you and TheFBD, and a few others are even different people at this point. Some seem to now understand how it works and their fears have been allayed. Either that or you have forgotten your log ins for the other accounts.

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3 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I would like to see those kinds of challenges broken up into 10 or 15 minute chunks though, primarily for players who simply don't have the time or reliable enough connections or systems to complete such a long run. 

I could easily get behind this idea 100%.

I'd do 240 minutes of survival TOTAL before I'd do 60 consecutive minutes in one mission against the same enemies while also wondering if host migration would rear its ugly head.

The hardest part comes down to not getting bored for most players, not because of short attention spans but because for most people running a single mission for longer than about 15 minutes starts to crack Warframe's gameplay loop by stretching it too thin.

 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Ah, So to you when someone points out the flaws and fallacies of a criticism that someone has and explains how the nightwave system works, does the maths and attempts to allay fears about NW, that is derailing to you?

Because bad design is what some call inventory check activities, which both Guzman and I agree are bad.

Not understanding how the standing and ranks work as well as wolf credits and not being able to claim everything now, is not bad design. That is just players not understanding how it works.

Now assuming that you and TheFBD, and a few others are even different people at this point. Some seem to now understand how it works and their fears have been allayed. Either that or you have forgotten your log ins for the other accounts.

Shifting the blame to players for "doing it wrong" for just playing normally, or using excuses like "you don't have to do it if you don't like it" is fundamentally flawed, and has no place in a feedback topic.

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Nightwave was a appreciative effort to lessen constant do this do that gameplay but it also feel flat, it feels like they extended the grind for some items while lessening some content, if they kept the older alert system in combination with nightwave i feel like it would of had a stronger start, as is, not so much it feels like the game is missing some content 

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

I think the other major problem besides people not doing the simple maths needed to work out their progress is people see the rewards purchasable with the credits and assume they are entitled to all of them immediately. This is probably the only thing Alerts had that was better. because the nature of alerts was pretty random people only saw what was available when it was available. Now people see all the rewards and demand that they be allowed to have all the rewards, now.

I think that this is a valid point. Many complaints and suggestions I've seen over my time here have been cases where people just didn't understand opportunity cost, had unlimited wants, and very limited resources. In almost every case they demanded something more for nothing. 

Many of the things being voiced here seem to be the same. "I've done those things a million times over, why should I have to do it again for the rewards?" Or "I didn't have to do this in the past because I already had all the rewards, why should I be forced to actually play in order to advance my standing?" Or the ever popular "newbs and people who have not bothered to begin any of the endgame content will be unable to complete the 'Elite' challenges, so despite not needing the vast majority of them to max out the standing, I will clamour for their removal on the basis that it's an unfair system, even though that has been addressed hundreds of times by now". 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

What game modes in WF are not Chores to you? Because it seems like EVERYTHING is a chore.

You noticed that as well, did you? Hope you get an actual answer to the question, so far I've only gotten deflection, baseless accusation and really weird attempts to gaslight me out of that character. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Months? Nightwave launched on Feburary 27. It has only been 1 month and 2 days. How have you been playing it for months?

And apparently someone has hit rank 29 already. This suggests that in a couple days time they're going to be well past rank 30.

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Or maybe you're just used to derailing good discussion for personal gain?

Oh, that tactic again? Now I figure you ought to tell us what sort of personal gain you think we get for disagreeing with you. Is it the nightwave tier rewards? Do you figure that's how people have gotten so far ahead? 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Because bad design is what some call inventory check activities, which both Guzman and I agree are bad.

Sort of. There are some inventory checks that would be bad, but only if the average player can't reasonably get the stuff within the week. For those of us who have the ability, but don't feel like doing it, well that's a different story. 

And where I can I've been trying to help newcomers get around the inventory. Anyone with a spear can catch fish in PoE if I toss the bait, and I have it by the dozen from farming Ostron standing. Eidolon hunting, I can easily solo Terry so if that comes up, even day 1 newbs can take part in the hunt with me. The apothics I can help with, even if it's a bit of a grind for me. 

 

But I didn't mind the forma one, because it paired with the opening relics one. We open relics and get forma or prime junk that we can trade for forma. The gild a modular... Was more troublesome because it was tied to limited standing/day syndicates that people might not have enough standing in to complete. 

So what I'm saying is there is a spectrum. If it's something that we can carry one another past, it's not terrible in my eyes. 

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Shifting the blame to players for "doing it wrong" for just playing normally, or using excuses like "you don't have to do it if you don't like it" is fundamentally flawed, and has no place in a feedback topic.

Kind of like calling someone a liar for saying that they get less than 8 hours of sleep a night? Yeah buddy, you did that. 

The difference between us is that when we are disagreeing, we bring actual numbers, back what we're saying with reasoning and explain why we disagree with quotes as needed. So far you've mostly just flung mud and made baseless accusations. Why not try to not do what you are accusing others of doing? Why not take the time to address the points people make instead of just accusing people who are disagreeing of trying to derail a feedback (that's not the same as complaints only) thread? 

 

58 minutes ago, (XB1)CryingCross4970 said:

Nightwave was a appreciative effort to lessen constant do this do that gameplay but it also feel flat, it feels like they extended the grind for some items while lessening some content, if they kept the older alert system in combination with nightwave i feel like it would of had a stronger start, as is, not so much it feels like the game is missing some content 

When two things try to occupy the same niche one will always, inevitably fail. I think what's confusing people is that nightwave is two systems rolled into one. One part is a drawn out event with a lot more rewards than the usual event we've had. The other is a way to hand out the alert rewards in a more reliable way that cuts the RNG. 

What's weird is that for events in the past I've seen people complain about how many times they ran the missions and how they abandoned their family, friends and even pets over the duration of the event and gave themselves carpal tunnel syndrome trying to beat the RNG. This time lots of people have admitted to playing less but they're still unhappy. 

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I said that post stunk, and it does. So does everything you post, just like this one.

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19 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well that suggests that you have a very, very small sample size to be making the following assertion:

It suggests that you are well aware that you have made a statement where you know that you are able to cherry pick. 

 

Weird, this time there is less of a "the sky will fall and the game will die if you keep us from being able to do buy what is not a cosmetic reward". 

https://forums.warframe.com/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=1066474&content_commentid=10609833

Folks are free to, and encouraged to follow the conversation all the way back to the beginning to confirm if they want. 🙄

Yeah, kinda funny that you would claim that right after I pointed out that I'm really not:

 

Now, one final question:

Really, though, who are you trying to fool with that bad acting?

 

 

Glad to hear that you're having a better time!

It's a major problem we've got in warframe, lots of people who don't have the information, end up listening to the people who are complaining about stuff that may not even be true... (lots of people are still trying to claim 70% participation which was floated by some random at the start of the event based on very little information). 

But you're not the only person who was having a hard time getting stuff done. We've also seen veterans complaining about how difficult certain things are, but when you look at the details they're giving, it turns out that they are just doing things in a really really inefficient way. 

The great part is that as a community lots of people are going to be happy to help you out if you just let them know that you are having a tough time. It's a big part of why we have stuff like recruiting chat, just explain that you are new, and have read the wiki but it's your first time so you'll do your best but might need help. Most folks will understand because we were all there at some point. Being in a clan can help you find others to help as well. 

And as long as you are having fun, you will find that a lot of stuff that people are complaining about really is not a problem...

We don't have to worry about missing out on rewards we don't want to try to get. We don't need to have a super specific build to make our way through the game. We don't need hundreds of Nitain all at once to build any given thing. We don't need all the alert weapons at once, most will tell you that they are not even that great. 

And all of this will roll around again when you are stronger and can do more. You will get it all if you just stick around, and you'll stick around if you are having fun. So just have fun and you are good to go. 😉 👍

Oh my gosh! You've been the best source of information I've seen on this Game. You're not judging, not critical, just very helpful.

Got a real problem though. I have Essential tremors and guiding through the levels can be a challenge at times. I started out with Excalibur, nice frame, but I've yet to master him. I tend to forget what he can do when I'm in the heat of battle. But that's on me. I should have started out as Volt. Running would be better than bullet jumping into doorframes. Lol. My problem is trying to keep up. The others will be waiting for me at extraction before I can get started or they're on the other side of the map which leaves me fighting for my life. Lol, but that's on me.

I'm having a blast but I sometimes get a player or two that are super critical of my "Style" lol. Rushing like others through the levels adds a level of stress that really causes me to really make mistakes. 

So, all in all, I've managed to make friends that are understanding. And really, I'm not that bad. I just can't fly through spy missions.

You've been super helpful. Thank you.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

The irony here is that you don't understand that the majority of the criticism has not been valid. it's simply a failure of many to crunch the numbers.

Criticism about things like the Gild/Forma/Spector/Ayatan Activities is very valid.

Criticism because people can't have everything right now this second is not.

 

The customer is always right. Even when you don't agree with them.
 

You're trying to police customer feedback. This is directly contrary to the purpose of the thread, so you're derailing it. It's against forum rules.
You're insulting and misrepresenting other posters. This is against several forums rules.

nothing like the holidays shut up GIF

 

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2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Shifting the blame to players for "doing it wrong" for just playing normally, or using excuses like "you don't have to do it if you don't like it" is fundamentally flawed, and has no place in a feedback topic.

Explaining to players how they have misunderstood how things work so they have no cause for their concerns has every place in a feedback thread.

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13 minutes ago, Enialyx said:

The customer is always right. Even when you don't agree with them.

 

This is a fallacy. The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is incredibly ignorant and extremely wrong.

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