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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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On 2019-03-18 at 10:51 AM, Lodeion said:

EDIT: "I think it's possible to satisfy both people who like and people who dislike 1-hour challenges, and that's what I want."

When Nightwave came out, I was very satisfied with its elite weekly 1-hour acts and I want more of them - it's a second week without them and I'm getting worried I'm not going to get them again.

I know these acts have been getting a lot of negative feedback from the community, but there are people who love these challenges, and I think it's fair for those people to have them. Especially because 1-hour acts don't seem to harm players who don't like them.

Positives of 1-hour acts (Why I and others like them):

  1. They encourage players to upgrade equipment and learn mechanics of the game: Without these acts, there are no good reasons to push weapons and frames to their limits.
  2. Survival missions are very fun above 20 minutes and it's probably the best content Warframe has at the moment. The new bosses can be more frustrating than fun.
  3. Without Nightwave rewards, long survival missions are not rewarding enough to do them instead of more rewarding content - no matter how fun they are.
  4. If other activities are included into Nightwave, and survival doesn't, in a way it becomes even less rewarding than other content.

Negatives of 1-hour acts (Why people dislike them):

  1. It may be difficult/impossible to complete without a team.
  2. It is impossible to complete for people who can't play for 1 hour at a time.
  3. It's not for a new players.
  4. They might be too easy for hardcore players.

It's possible to unlock all of the rewards while skipping 1 or 2 weekly challenges, so people affected by negatives can safely skip the undesired acts. If that is not the case, it should be - that's way better option than removing niche acts from Nightwave.

Other suggestions:

  1. If skipping is a problem, there could more challenges available with a cap on how many challenges can be completed each week.
  2. Challenges could be made shorter in length if the difficulty of 1-hour survival was accessible earlier.
  3. I also wouldn't mind if elite acts were made more difficult to make hardcore players interested.

So, yeah, I 100% support 1-hour acts. I think they are/were a great addition to the game - like the rest of Nightwave.

Jeez, give DE some room to work. You can't expect them to organize that EVERY week because there are far more people who would complain if that happened

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If you like 1 hour mission so much, just do it yourself. Or recruit someone who has same fetish.
Please don't make these niche things being forced to anyone. If you really like doing extreme stuff, you don't need rewards for doing it.

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Le 04/03/2019 à 22:47, [DE]Bear a dit :

In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall.
 

Endless challenges are challenges that spoke to every type of player since they're already doing this kind of missions all day long. There's no cost of enjoyment except for a few reasons:

First many people will whine about anything cause that's what they do, in any game, in real life, anytime anywhere. Tbh don't even try to please the ones who can't be pleased - You're wasting your time here.

Second the major flaw of this kind of mission isn't necessarily the difficulty but the time we need to achieve it. 40min is really long, most players aren't even staying more 10min in such missions. That doesn't mean they can't stay longer but let be honest a sec, 40min is really really long. And i don't even talk about people who have other things to do (casual or not), family, job, friends, children in real life. Not every player is a nolife who's farming kuva all day long.

Third, if a few people are complaining here, that doesn't mean everyone agrees with them. This is only a forum and people are always more eager to complain than any other thing. Be cautious with the vocal minority or you'll lose any objectivity. Tons of people play this game on a regular basis, not so many come here. You can't base any assumption upon a few aficionados - it's working this way in every single game now.

Fourth, i don't know how you're calculating the whole nightwave reward system, but i'm pretty sure there's some anxiety around it. If people knew they could avoid some specific challenges and still be able to grab every rewards, you'd be saving a lot of trouble.

Fifth, you can't please everyone. That's your job to design stuff and make choices, not player's. Try to pick the good one and stick to it - most peoplle will adapt anyway and tbh most people don't like much changes so this is a long story. Unless you're making mistakes of course. 😓

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13 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

But that was never the issue, was it? And then here you are, setting up stupid bait questions to try and trap out an answer that suits you, despite having answered this several times already.

What isn't a chore is whatever I want to do at that time. What is a chore is all the things I don't want to do, but am obligated to by design. In other words, the vast majority of Warframe's content, on it's own, is not a chore. What is a chore is forcing players to play this or that specific thing lest they miss out on some time limited reward. And since everything about nightwave is both time-gated and expires, nightwave is a series of chores by design. This is a bad thing, and was a bad thing when every other game did it.

Again, even though I've already explained it before. Not that you'll remember it in a page or two, because it would be inconvenient to recognize that there are legitimate concerns with how horrible nightwave is by design, and that it's not just a bunch of kids jumping on the complain train to feel included.

Yes, but as usual your answers were vague and when I pointed out that everything in the game told you how to play the game when your last response was that you don't like being told how to play the game. You never clarified your answer.

I  was going to break down everything in the game and whether it was time-gated or not, but the forums crashed for me this morning.

So I'm just going to put it like this. 90% of the game content is time-gated and therefore in your opinion a chore. Alerts were super time-gated so must have been massive chores. My takeaway from this is no matter what changes they make to Nigth Wave, it will always be a chore for you and you will never be happy. Because you don't like being told what to do.

So that means based on the majority of your replies here, you are not here for Nigthave improvements, you're just here to attack the people who are clarifying things people misunderstand about nightwave. The people who are trying to allay unfounded fears about.
 

Mostly you are here to derail the thread, because you yourself find everything to be a chore except on the few days you wake up and decide you want to do that thing so it is no longer a chore.
 

if you want to learn what real Chores are in a game go play Fortnite Save the World.

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is this the right Thread for this?

  • for the Sabotage Cache Nightwave task, Hive Sabotage and Grineer Sealab Sabotage don't count towards the progress.
    these are Sabotage Missions, and have Caches, so they should count.

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I hate this Nightwave bs and am not bothering to read any of the 60+ pages on this thread as I'm already on the fence about uninstalling this game as is, so here's my possibly not so unique ideas on how to improve it if the old alert system isn't coming back (either alongside Nightwave or without Nightwave):

-Don't lock Wolf credits behind tiers. Perhaps make the challenges give a small number of credits and make fugitives give credits on capture. WoSS should also drop credits as well. Decrease the value of an individual credit for more accurate pricing if you have to, just please don't make Nightwave feel so intrusive. This means people that play less frequently can choose to grind their time on Nightwave OR other things and still get some progression to Nightwave, while those that play more frequently get rewarded for it as well. More options is a good thing in video games!

-Remove the idea of daily/weekly challenges completely. Scrap them for a number of challenges you can do based on in-game progression that are replaced with new random challenges after completion. Add in a free number of daily rerolls, and make it so rerolls can be earned in some way or another while playing the game more or less normally. Elite challenges can still be a thing but for actual higher level players as a bonus and not a necessity for Nightwave progression. Also if you don't want people that no-life the game to get everything too easily, add a limit to how many challenges you can do in a day or week or whatever. It achieves the same effect but with less frustration. This idea can be balanced in so many different ways.

-Make Nightwave permanent. Nightwave seasons with tiered rewards can come and go, but don't toss the credits and rewards out, that's really frustrating. Maybe add smaller random rewards while Nightwave seasons are out for those that like to do Nightwave stuff a lot. Also give a large disclaimer saying "The Umbra Forma is exclusive to Nightwave, and one will be available in (the next/a future season). If you can't get it now, don't worry!" or something. Assuming that's what's going to happen, I don't know, just a guess. Haven't paid much attention to it, too many other things to learn.

-Make the shop rotate more frequently. It can hold less items, just have it rotate out daily or bi-daily. Or have it display every item from the beginning, nobody would complain about that. It isn't by any means necessary, however.

 

I'm sure I and many others cane come up with more ideas, just please improve this system. It is sucking out all the fun I want to have from returning to the game after so many years and seeing all this new content.

And DE, if you use my ideas and nobody else has already suggested the same, please give me credit by mentioning me. Would also love a free name change. 🙂

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Bug, restriction, and idea:

1. Communicator (daily) bug: I can't mark Kubrow eggs, only shows as "Waypoint" that fails to count for this Nightwave challenge. This is on PC platform. Doesn't matter if I am host, client, or solo. Still can't mark them. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1076314-cant-mark-kubrow-egg-other-players-walks-on-top-of-it-did-not-get-it/

2. Cache hunter (weekly): Find all three caches in sabotage missions.. The only minor problem is, Mars Ares (Mars), Ker (ceres), Thebe (Jupiter), Okoabiel (Europa), and Sao (Neptune), have no caches. It might help to show which missions have caches, like Cervantes (Earth) have caches. What's next? cache hunter on exterminate mission? I only know of one exterminate mission that have caches: Plato (Lua).

3. Just an idea: While in orbiter or relay, it may help to let us click Nightwave challenge that requires a specific location like Earth Fisher (Plains of Eidolon) and Test Subject (Sanctuary Onslaught), to ask "Start this mission?", or show list of possible missions like Sound Sleeper show all available Nightmare missions and Cache Hunter should show Sabotage missions that have Caches.

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3 hours ago, Saerrin said:

I hate this Nightwave bs and am not bothering to read any of the 60+ pages on this thread as I'm already on the fence about uninstalling this game as is, so here's my possibly not so unique ideas on how to improve it if the old alert system isn't coming back (either alongside Nightwave or without Nightwave):

-Don't lock Wolf credits behind tiers. Perhaps make the challenges give a small number of credits and make fugitives give credits on capture. WoSS should also drop credits as well. Decrease the value of an individual credit for more accurate pricing if you have to, just please don't make Nightwave feel so intrusive. This means people that play less frequently can choose to grind their time on Nightwave OR other things and still get some progression to Nightwave, while those that play more frequently get rewarded for it as well. More options is a good thing in video games!

-Remove the idea of daily/weekly challenges completely. Scrap them for a number of missions you can do based on in-game progression that are replaced with new random missions after completion. Add in a free number of daily rerolls, and make it so rerolls can be earned in some way or another while playing the game more or less normally. Elite missions can still be a thing but for actual higher level players as a bonus and not a necessity for Nightwave progression. Also if you don't want people that no-life the game to get everything too easily, add a limit to how many missions you can do in a day or week or whatever. It achieves the same effect but with less frustration. This idea can be balanced in so many different ways.

-Make Nightwave permanent. Nightwave seasons with tiered rewards can come and go, but don't toss the credits and rewards out, that's really frustrating. Maybe add smaller random rewards while Nightwave seasons are out for those that like to do Nightwave stuff a lot. Also give a large disclaimer saying "The Umbra Forma is exclusive to Nightwave, and one will be available in (the next/a future season). If you can't get it now, don't worry!" or something. Assuming that's what's going to happen, I don't know, just a guess. Haven't paid much attention to it, too many other things to learn.

-Make the shop rotate more frequently. It can hold less items, just have it rotate out daily or bi-daily. Or have it display every item from the beginning, nobody would complain about that. It isn't by any means necessary, however.

 

I'm sure I and many others cane come up with more ideas, just please improve this system. It is sucking out all the fun I want to have from returning to the game after so many years and seeing all this new content.

And DE, if you use my ideas and nobody else has already suggested the same, please give me credit by mentioning me. Would also love a free name change. 🙂

You want to replace challenges with missions.  last thing i want is more missions... As of now. I can do majority of nightwave while doing what i want to do......

 

 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb random__noob:

You mean, like the hourly Arbitrations?

Or more sporadic like Rifts and Invasions? Or more of a slow frequency like Sorties, Weekly Relic hunts and Clem mission?

If you want, you can create a topic about the reward pool of the arbitrations...

Like alerts but still different. Nightwave removed alerts and gave us a different system, I think they should have kept and reworked the hourly alerts and have them next to Nightwave.

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20 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

I would say a person's opinion is always correct for them.

There is no "you're wrong to not like that" reply that is correct here. (including perceptions of things that may not exist as things)

Opinions are fine, but they're usually based on our reaction to certain facts. An opinion that is based on facts that we know are wrong, and have known for a long time can be changed by pointing out that those facts are false and giving the correct ones. 

An example is "nightwave is bad because we are being forced to participate". That is not an opinion it's a statement of objective fact, and is simply not true. Most of the people voicing this here seem to be multi-year veterans who already have most or even all of the alert rewards. They want the umbral forma and the cosmetics, but claim to dislike the challenges which are drawn from all parts of the game. 

When asked what they do like about the game as a reference point, they refuse to give straight answers, and the answers that we get indicate that they would have had the exact same opposition to the alerts system. (This happens to be entirely believable as many people skipped the alerts that they already had the rewards for, so there's a good chance that they would not have participated anyway.) 

Another false fact that we've seen is "70% participation/completion required" which we were told from the very beginning that it's intended to be between 60 to 65%. The complainant that we're not told this in-game is valid, but anyone on the forums has no excuse as the 70% has been corrected way too many times. 

Now it appears that the majority of the false facts are being used by the same individuals, over and over again. By and large these are also the ones claiming that anyone correcting those false facts, or holding a different opinion, are "toxic and trying to derail the thread". 

 

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What I've seen done here, in "correcting" people, is adjusting their goals from what is presented in the game as what they should aspire to (mid-point of rank 30 was "expected", with everything beyond that being "prestige" ranks that they are not expected to get without putting in more than the usual effort),

  Reveal hidden contents

(If people want to run with the whole "elite" tag on "elite challenges" and hold DE to their own inflated exaggerated opinion of what that should mean about the relative challenge they should hold, I'm going to hold them to "prestige" too.) It's silly to have to do that, but it is what it is.

to what is currently achievable by those people, so they no longer have expectations not being met. I wouldn't call that a good thing. The expectations of the Nightwave system was to replace Alerts and "make it better" for people with little time to play the game. In my experience, this has not happened, and in fact, Nightwave has made it worse for people with little time to play.

You mean like when we say that it's unreasonable to expect all day-1 newbs to be able to participate in or complete the "Elite" challenges? 

Or if we point out that because many of the challenges synergise many people can complete all of the challenges in a few hours a week, and can gain 4 ranks a week which guarantees that players with limited time to play can get a lot more stuff from the store Nitain in a given week than under the previous system without the time based RNG? 

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As I've said before, Nightwave is good in THEORY, but badly implemented, to fulfill the stated goals of the content. (replacing Alerts)

If Alerts continued as before, alongside Nightwave, I'd say 50% or more of the feedback against Nightwave, seen here, would not exist.

The other 50% that would remain, is in the intrinsic design of Nightwave being time-limited event-exlusive rewards with expiring currency (the rewards of which may come back in easier or more difficult to obtain ways at some vague future time, negating the argument to just wait for it to come around again - especially if that "way" to get them means getting prestige ranks in future Nightwaves, when it's hard enough now, for some just to reach the mid-point of 30 ranks.)

Based on the fact that the old alert system generated a lot complaint especially wrt Nitain and having to wait weeks under regular play to get enough, and the fact that many of the complaints are allegedly about not being able to get the rewards they want, from the mission type they want, at the time they want I'd have to say that we wouldn't be getting fewer complaints, just different ones. 

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No arguments will change my mind on the failure of design present in what I see here. It's also not a plaintive cry from someone who won't get those rewards (I'm rank 18 already - slowly farming up a buffer in case there are a ton of stupid challenges I don't want to do or my schedule prevents me from playing later in the season), but I know many others are not so far along - and it is these people, and future me (in future seasons, with different future circumstances) that I am voicing these concerns for, to make this event better for MORE people, not just for who it's already good for, right now.

Well it's sad that you have decided in advance to have a closed mind about this. Since the alert rewards are specific to the creds store, I'm going to ask you if you are going to stop after rank 24?

If so you probably have quite a large buffer right now. If you are aiming for rank 30 then you probably are doing just fine, but I would suspect that you are after something other than the alert rewards, and if you are trying to prestige for bonus creds, you are probably behind where you should be by this stage, there's at least one dude who will be able to collect his first prestige ranks before tomorrow. 

I'd love to hear which of those applies to you. 

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As it is, Nightwave is set up to be an EVENT, rather than a core game system. Limited time, limited rewards, progress disappearing at the end. And most events are just fine in Warframe, where people focus on the goals of that event for a short time, like 2 weeks... and then relax and go back to playing how they want to, with their own goals on their own timetables. Nightwave isn't just 2 weeks... it's 10 weeks, and if you don't put in enough effort every week, you stand to lose out on some of the rewards (or all of the rewards that matter to you) if you fail to put in the required time-frame dependent work.

You are right, Nightwave is also an event. But the bit about if we miss a week we will lose out on our rewards is weird. We only need 60-65% of the total standing. So if we can, and choose to do all of the challenges, we'll be done in 6-7 weeks. We should be able to miss up to 3 whole weeks and be fine. 

And it being time dependent can't be the problem, because most alerts were time dependent. Even the Gifts of the Lotus we'd get every couple of weeks were locked to 24 hours. That very generous 24 hours is 3 times less than what we get under Nightwave, isn't it? 

 

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Several things have been brought up that could fix these issues, and yes, they're ISSUES. And just telling people to "live with it" or "git good" or "skip it"... are all invalid for the discussion at hand.

 

Well isn't it great that by opening up and letting everyone know what you think and why, we've had an open avenue for civil discussion and you haven't gotten any of those? (But I'm afraid that I still think that "skip whatever you don't feel like doing" will always be a valid response to anyone claiming that they are being "forced" to do stuff in a video game.) 

 

Have a fantabulous day Tenno. Hope that I'll see you in your Wolf armour holding a bushel of Nitain, when we get to that finish line. 😊

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19 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I think the biggest problem is the basic premise of the alerts, that is if "everyone" should be able to do "everything" or not. The driving force behind "maxing" stuff is strong, so the current three-tier level system doesn't really work as a separator as most players try to do all missions regardless of being equipped or experienced enough to do them. This was especially apparent with the 1-hour missions, where you had a lot of players joining that barely could manage 20 minutes. Which is perfectly fine (trying out tougher missions), but which also was extremely irritating for higher MRs which did not want to rinse-and-repeat due to half the squad having dropped out at the half-time mark.

However, if the missions gets adapted for "everyone", everyone will actually end up with less. Less variation, less difficulty, less challenge. Less "good loot", since a system that just distributes good loot to "everyone" isn't possible. And all this in turn will lead to less interest, especially for more experienced players (who are in this just for the new goodies, since they already have all the other stuff).

I think giving in to the gripe and making everything easier and possible for everyone is exactly the wrong way to go. Instead it should be pushed into the other direction, keeping the tough missions and adding even tougher ones.

Commenting on the three mission types on the list:

  • my only gripe with the Ayatan mission was that it punished players that put stars inte their sculptures immediately (like me 🙂). I had around fifty already filled ayatan sculptures "in storage", so I had go out and get more (which is quite easy, since arbitrations run 24/7). However, my lazy friend had around 30 unfilled sculptures, so he just filled five of them. Overall I think it was a perfectly valid (and interesting) new mission type.
  • The survival challenges have been the best missions in the series so far, and finally something with a real bite to it. Super-great! I also think it is the player's own fault if they don't see the possibility of combining several challenges in one (which has become a sort of new and fun meta-challenge once a week).
  • this is the only one where I side with the complainers. I think it would be ok if players that are friends or clan members would get an additional in-mission buff (more damage, more shields, more something per friend/clan member in the squad), but forcing players to "make friends" or join a clan in order to be able to even take part in a mission is... well, it is actually quite "bad". 

I have to admit I didn't like this change at first, but now I think it could become something quite brilliant. I have a few suggestions...

  1. First of all, please kill the idea that everyone should be able to do all missions, and after killing it bury it somewhere where no-one will ever find it.
  2. The premise that not everyone can do everything should also be applied to more experienced players, by adding missioin where you have to select doing either the "easier" or the "harder" version (with some appropriate spread in standing to reflect the different difficulty level).
  3. One of the really nice things with the new system is that the mix of players in the missions has increased (even though this at the same time has been an irritant in the tougher missions). Mixing different experience and equipment levels is a very good thing, but I think it should be handled differently, by adding a mission type that is based on experience slots, for instance 1 slot for MR20+, 1 for MR15-MR20, 1 for MR10-MR15 and 1 for MR5-MR10. The mission would not start until every slot was filled by a player of appropriate level, and in order to facilitate cooperation it would not conclude successfully unless all four players extracted together. This forces higher MR players to actually help and support others, and at the same time allows lower MR players to play with "fully equipped" Lords of the Game, as well as to see in practice what fully forma'ed and modded weapons and warframes, arcanes, focus schools etc. can do.
  4. From the arbitration system I would adapt the idea of using specific warframes for specific missions, but expand on it to have a mission type where using certain warframes is mandatory. That is, unless you select one of the four(?) warframes defined for the mission, you can't join (like the weapon gate system in sorties). Both Primed and non-primed versions of the applicable warframe should of course be allowed.
  5. Instead of a mission type forcing the players to use a specific weapon (as in no. 4 above) I would like to see a mission type where Lotus provides the weaponry (pre-selected and pre-modded). Basically players can join the mission using any warframe, but have to use the pre-selected weaponry in-mission. This would have the double benefit of allowing players to test weapons and forcing players out of their "I always use this/that"-zone.
  6. The daily challenges forcing us to kill using specific damage types are great and instructive (even if easy for more experienced players). I would like to see more and much "crazier" instructive missions. One that immediately comes to mind is a "kavat/kubrow patrol" mission, where the warframes' weapons and active abilities (1-4) are locked and you are dependent on your pets. And an equivalent mission for sentinels. And an "operators-only" mission.
  7. I understand that the current set of standing rewards and the wolf credit market has evolved from the old alert system, but I think it would work better if the store was for fashion & weapons and all the resources were including in the standing rewards. In addition I think the standing reward progression would be a lot more interesting (and functional) if every third standing reward would consist of three options of which you can select only one (like the daily login reward). This would allow for resources like catalysts, orokin reactors, forma etc. to be present at several reward tiers, while at the same time allowing players that need them to select them and players that don't to select one of the other two options.

I can't say that I like all of this, but quite a bit of it seems to have interesting implications. 

 

I'd probably hate the companion one because it would make me do stuff that I definitely would not normally try to do, so I give that a great big thumbs up. That's exactly what nightwave is trying to do, get us to push out of our personal comfort zones. 

2 hours ago, sam686 said:

3. Just an idea: While in orbiter or relay, it may help to let us click Nightwave challenge that requires a specific location like Earth Fisher (Plains of Eidolon) and Test Subject (Sanctuary Onslaught), to ask "Start this mission?", or show list of possible missions like Sound Sleeper show all available Nightmare missions and Cache Hunter should show Sabotage missions that have Caches.

This is something that I'd like to see too. A lot. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tornicade said:

You want to replace challenges with missions.  last thing i want is more missions... As of now. I can do majority of nightwave while doing what i want to do......

 

 

Yeah a lot of people don't seem to get that. It means that the newbs can get the majority of their rewards from low level missions on the starter planets if they need to. But older heads can efficiently combine them with the sort of stuff that were more likely to do on a daily basis. Kill X eximus enemies? Kill X with secondary? Kill X with radiation? Mark X items? Some folks will read all of those as "do eximus stronghold, use kitgun, for teh lulz". Others will see it as "go argon/tellurium farming, apologise to Nekros". 

Which is exactly why anyone complaining about being "forced" to do things that they don't want to do for the rewards, is probably not being totally honest. 

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So can we mention for a second how this "wolf" guy is a bad fight? For starters he has a really low spawn rate, and youre not guaranteed the hammer parts when you take him out either, but but when you do fight him it just feels cheap. Like i have six formas and a godly riven in my main and secondary guns and they do 3-4 digit damage to him. Which i could normally deal with but he also spawns with stronger than normal fugitives with the added benefit of being immortal. So your best guns dont really scratch wolf when hes there, but you also take constant fire from these immortal guys you cant take out. If youre going to nerf my damage to about 1% of what I normally do, can we at least not have immortal enemies too? The wolf takes no status and has that damage reduction which just makes it even longer that you have to be getting shot at by these twits. DE pls stahp the immortality 

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17 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Not true. The need to do all the missions is just in your head, approx. 60% of the missions are needed to achieve full standing. It is ok to want easy missions, I like a little bit more challenge. Even though I don't quite understand why you want the missions easier, if you are so über-good that you fall asleep fighting lvl 150-160 Grineer… Maybe you would get more out of it if you equipped a more challenging warframe and non-META equipment (it might actually be fun, you know 😉).

Never stated to make the mission easier.  Actually, i want them more challenging but not taking a lifetime.  1 hour survival where the only semi challenging part is the final 5 to 10 minutes is not a challenge.  Its a snooze fest.  Reread my post.  They could implement enemy perks or debuffs to Tenno much like Nightmare or Sorties do but make them more unique.  Like stated: have the Life Support decrease at twice the speed or something while also making the mission only 20 minutes long and the enemies start at level 70 or somewhere in that ballpark. 

And this goes back to the fact that you are GATING 5k of points behind content that clearly a bunch (most likely a large majority) of people strongly disliked.  This has NOTHING to do with getting to just lvl 30 standing.  There is a Prestige mode might i remind you. Not only that but op talked about not having 1 hour content for 2 weeks thus insinuating it should be frequent each week or every other week.  

 

Oh and lastly, equipping a more challenging kit where I have to nerf myself for 1 hour content is effing hilarious as a solution. Why even remotely risk wasting 30 to 60 minutes of my life by nerfing myself?  Again, DE can create 20 minute content that has challenges but if we lose, we lose a LOT less time thus the rinse and repeat is faster and less frustrating. If they WANT to do 1 hour content, then create checkpoints. 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)ImTooHungover said:

Never stated to make the mission easier.  Actually, i want them more challenging but not taking a lifetime.  1 hour survival where the only semi challenging part is the final 5 to 10 minutes is not a challenge. 

And this goes back to the fact that you are GATING 5k of points behind content that clearly a bunch (most likely a large majority) of people strongly disliked.  This has NOTHING to do with getting to just lvl 30 standing.  There is a Prestige mode might i remind you. Not only that but op talked about not having 1 hour content for 2 weeks thus insinuating it should be frequent each week or every other week.  

Oh and lastly, equipping a more challenging kit where I have to nerf myself for 1 hour content is effing hilarious as a solution. Why even remotely risk wasting 30 to 60 minutes of my life by nerfing myself?

Ok, I can buy the challenge argument. An optimal solution then would be to drop the time to 30 minutes and either double enemy lvl progression or starting level (or both 🙂). That would be 100% ok for me personally.

I don't think the gate-argument is valid, since it is absolutely not sompulsory to do the mission, or all missions. And the Prestige mode, have you checked what you can buy for your Prestige? The only thing I might need is more Catalysts (have all the helmets & auras, have maxed all the weapons, have 200+ nitains, approx. 20 Orokin reactors, but only 10+ or so Catalysts, so...). Now, if I could but Forma with Prestige points (like in Plague Star) that would change things, always need more Forma.

If the complaint is that you fall asleep because the mission is so easy, how can it be hilarious to use some other setup than your META? You actually want DE to adapt mission content to your favourite build instead of vice versa? 🙂

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I like how easily you can get Nitain Extract now, maybe it's even too cheap.

But I'm gonna miss the alerts with void traces.

Well, mostly I'm gonna miss the moment when me and my buddies are thinking about what to do next, and then we check the alerts and we see one with good rewards, like a forma, void traces, kavat gene code or mods, and so we get something to play, together with something to gain. I dunno I feel like there's something less that you can do, and something more that you have to do.

Well overall I liked the Nightwave idea with daily and weekly tasks, but I didn't imagine it was going to replace the alerts, so I dunno, we get something and we lose something ... I guess I'm neutral about this.

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1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

Ok, I can buy the challenge argument. An optimal solution then would be to drop the time to 30 minutes and either double enemy lvl progression or starting level (or both 🙂). That would be 100% ok for me personally.

I don't think the gate-argument is valid, since it is absolutely not sompulsory to do the mission, or all missions. And the Prestige mode, have you checked what you can buy for your Prestige? The only thing I might need is more Catalysts (have all the helmets & auras, have maxed all the weapons, have 200+ nitains, approx. 20 Orokin reactors, but only 10+ or so Catalysts, so...). Now, if I could but Forma with Prestige points (like in Plague Star) that would change things, always need more Forma.

If the complaint is that you fall asleep because the mission is so easy, how can it be hilarious to use some other setup than your META? You actually want DE to adapt mission content to your favourite build instead of vice versa? 🙂

Well...yes, actually.

If we're to work on the concept that this stuff is even supposed to be a challenge in the first place(which I don't, I'll get to that), we as players didn't develop the meta builds, we simply found them amongst the tools given to us.  If we are to believe that we're being offered a challenge, then it seems reasonable that it challenge our highest level play, rather than having us willfully detune ourselves to render that challenge available.

That's working off of the notion that this stuff is supposed to rise to that level of challenge in the first place.  Most of the point giving tasks don't even begin to suggest that this is the case, nor does the premise of the whole thing----an alert system replacement(alerts did not offer challenge, they were solar system level missions) that offers progress from essentially what you'll be doing anyway, with added items to give direction to places.  The rewards don't really suggest any level of challenge either, they aren't geared toward particularly high level play but instead are a spread of alert replacements, trivial gizmos, and cosmetics.

Even the "one hour" style missions were not a nod to challenge.  Rather, they are a nod to using multiplayer(they included qualifiers to force grouping, despite the ability to be soloed without that qualifier), to give direction to utilize that sort of gameplay. 

As far as gating, or whether content is optional.....eh.  It's the newest content, it's to be expected that folks will want to be able to complete it, and based upon any reasonable premise of what it may be intended for, different folks are likely to find different issues with how it is to be gone about. 

If the tasks are consistently steering you toward things that you aren't interested in, you'll rapidly find yourself not finishing, especially when one of those tasks(like 1hr survivals) is worth such a large portion of a weeks potential payout.  Or, if you're given to finishing this content, you're now consigned to completing tasks that you'd rather not in order to do so.

As far as voluntary goes....eh, again.  If you look as this as content that must be completed, it's not so voluntary.  This week, as well as last week, I didn't go fishing to spear six rare fish on Earth.  Surely we aren't going to have a discussion as to the level of challenge I've deftly avoided by this, right?  I also didn't get the five Simaris scans done, because frankly, like the fish, I just couldn't be arsed.  Nobody is going to claim these things are hard(keep in mind they're the same payout as the 1hr survival was), or even particularly time consuming, but if I cared about getting those ranks I'd darn well have better done them---they weren't all that voluntary, in the context of completing the whole event.

And that brings us around to the "bullet dodged" by removal of the 1hr survival.  Clearly, it wasn't getting done by enough people(you can call that conjecture if you want, it doesn't change that it was removed).  Many where concerned that this item that folks weren't completing was going to take up 5k slots in their task lists on a regular basis.  The concern many voiced was that doing do may have made one individual mission skippable, but doing so week after week would render them unable to complete.  It's not a matter of seeing it once mattering, it's a matter of seeing it regularly enough to have an impact on results.  Clearly, the majority that are bothering to voice their concerns continue to have such reservations.

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Well, have to admit that I belong to the group of players who does all the Nightwave challenges (and mostly on Monday evening as well). I really like the pedagogic aspect of having to do stuff (even if you maxed it out a long time ago), and the fishing was fun, as has been the kill x enemies by this/that damage.

But the only challenges that I have really, really liked were the 1 hr missions. And I don't buy the "oh, me very, very big & tough boi"-arguments that there is "no challenge" and they are "so boring" that one falls asleep. This is just forum BS. The logic behind this is simple, if fighting lvl 150 Grineer and even having to kill them (to get life capsules) is so boring, what content is there actually in the game that wouldn't be boring?

Sure, four high MRs with the right warframe & equipment selections can quite easily do this. But isn't it the players themselves who makes the mission boring then? And since these challenges are not MR-gated, maybe it is completely ok that 4 fully equipped masters of the game should be bored if they crack it together, instead of doing it PUG-style and using their equipment and experience to help others?

I don't remember the specifics exactly, but I had an approx. MR8 Frost and a MR12 Ivara in my squad (+ me in Nekros and an experienced, very good Limbo), and I can assure you it was NOT boring. And it was FUN! And that was my third try (the first time one player accidentally started the life fountain at 40+ mins., trying to pick up a kuva catalyst, the second try two players left around the 30 minute mark, after dying X times and not waiting for a res). And that is why I really would like to get the chance to do it again. It is NOT the same as doing a standard 1 hr Kuva farm, since you have one or two low MR players who are in over their head 🙂. But hey, not all like to spend time and risk a fail to help them, right?

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2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Ok, I can buy the challenge argument. An optimal solution then would be to drop the time to 30 minutes and either double enemy lvl progression or starting level (or both 🙂). That would be 100% ok for me personally.

I don't think the gate-argument is valid, since it is absolutely not sompulsory to do the mission, or all missions. And the Prestige mode, have you checked what you can buy for your Prestige? The only thing I might need is more Catalysts (have all the helmets & auras, have maxed all the weapons, have 200+ nitains, approx. 20 Orokin reactors, but only 10+ or so Catalysts, so...). Now, if I could but Forma with Prestige points (like in Plague Star) that would change things, always need more Forma.

If the complaint is that you fall asleep because the mission is so easy, how can it be hilarious to use some other setup than your META? You actually want DE to adapt mission content to your favourite build instead of vice versa? 🙂

"gating" is the wrong term but my point is, poor content development if many ppl dont like a piece of content.  People who feel burdened in order to obtain an reward vs entertained is poor design.   Hell, i feel sorry for those who get to like 50 minutes or 55 minute mark and fail.  Then they have to 'autopilot' the first 40 minutes yet again. 

As for adapting content to my favorite builds? I never stated that.  Elite Challenges is a perfect opportunity to create more content to challenge players where they have to adapt to the developers content.  Which is how it should be.  In the end, 1 hour survival does not fit this role. Like you stated, just create a 20 to 30 minute, 'amped' up version of Survival so it actually tailors more to the "Elites" and leave out the other 30 minutes that tailor to mid game players. DE has a beautifully complex game and there are so many ways they could offer these challenges. 

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Yes please.

We know that Elite Weekly challenges are likely to be entirely optional for anyone who doesn't skip a week -- there's already an extremely dedicated guy with an Umbra Forma at this moment. (Personal opinion: the entire system is pretty much fluff at higher ranks, the most valuable reward being the Arcane at 25.)

So there's definitely room for these kinds of challenges. Of course, they don't have to be every week, either. In fact, it might already help if these kinds of challenges were left out of the first and last two weeks.

 

Alternatively, the system could be changed to satisfy a wider player base, as suggested in the following threads (and probably others I don't know about). In a nutshell the idea is to offer more challenges than total standing per week, the exact implementation is secondary. (This is mentioned in the OP, too.)

Spoiler

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1 hour survivals were viable with the old Key system, where there was an actual ingame point to run them.  Now, there is very little reason to run a 60 minute mission for any other reason than bragging rights that could otherwise be handled in ESO.

If DE wants to bring back long running endless missions, it should do so in a way that provides a decent reason to sink that much time into a single mission, not an overhaul that rep-gates basic game needs such as potatoes and nitain.

I like the Nightwave missions in general, and I get most of the missions done, but the vast majority of the player base doesn't have time to grind for hours for inconsequential cosmetics that should be available for plat as an alternative.  I understand the idea of rep-gating potatoes as DE needs to make their plat in microtransactions, that's fair.

Also, if you really love 1 hour endless missions, by all means go run them, just don't insist that everyone else should have to run them with you.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)Tornicade said:

You want to replace challenges with missions.  last thing i want is more missions... As of now. I can do majority of nightwave while doing what i want to do......

 

 

My bad, I forgot missions and challenges were considered different. I meant challenges still. Edited in my original post, the entire intent behind what I wrote is to not force you to do stuff you don't want to do, and instead open up more ways to play the game you want while still leaving the option to go out of your way to progress in Nightwave if you choose to do so.

 

Edited original post.

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On 2019-03-04 at 1:47 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey Tenno,

Nightwave is here in all of it’s Nora Night-backed glory, and there has been a lot of back and forth (both on the forums and internally) about the challenges and how to accrue Nightwave standing. Series 1 of Nightwave is our first attempt at this addition to Warframe, and we want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts and requests. We will be using this thread to gather feedback from everyone on all Platforms! 

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

  • Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
  • Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
  • Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe". 

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark - if you liked it, or didn't like it, comment below. In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall.

Nightwave is still new to the community and we are expecting to see more feedback come as the series progresses - you've only seen a % of all Acts, so as Series 1 progresses we need your feedback on the appearing Acts. We've seen players responding with some possible solutions that would make these challenges more piecemeal, balance the resources needed to complete some challenges, and assess social requirements to get your goodies.

We will be applying what we have learned to Nightwave Series 2 - but can only improve with constructive, detailed posts about what you like / didn't like about acts. Knowing what you like is just as important as what you don't like. 
 

Personally I don't think there's an issue with any of the challenges in and of themselves. What I think most frustrates people is the 'I'm being forced to do this thing that I wouldn't normally be doing that I find boring and/or time consuming', what I think needs to happen with the higher tier rewards (3-5k) rewards is rather than putting a rotation of set ones we HAVE to complete, give us a roster of mission for those categories that we can choose from either weekly or daily so we have more freedom to do the ones we WANT and then no one is going 'I dont have friends, this is too long, this is too rng dependent'.

IE of what I mean:

Either Daily or Weekly.

If Daily:

You give the players 3-5 mission types for 3k rewards and 5k rewards. You then select 1 or 2 out of those. The missions selected sits for the week like they currently do. You have the same amount of time to select your missions as you do for the daily 1k ones to expire. This way you minimize people complaining about missing their selections because they have lives or what have you and couldn't log on for that day to select. So this means you can miss Monday and log on Tuesday and select Monday and Tuesday's missions, and have the rest of the week to complete them.

Monday: 3k: Complete 0/5 Simaris Scans, Three Waves of Sanctuary Onslaught, Unlock All Caches in 0/3 Sabotage, Complete 0/3 Spy, Find 0/5 Rare Fish in the Plains of Eidolon
 

The player then can choose 1(2) of these to fill this 3k quota. So for example, I HATE the fishing and the Simaris Scans are just tedious, so then I can just be like 'Okay not those two', and click Spy and 3 Waves of Onslaught. Done. I know my time and level of commitment better than anyone and can better judge what's the best use of my time.

If Weekly:

Give the entire list of options, let us select however many of the 3 and 5k tiers you usually give us and that locks us into commitment. Perhaps give the players 1 reroll a week if they change their mind, but again this gives power to the players and makes it feel less like a chore.

1k options stay as they are. they're fine. But that's really my only issue with Nightwave in terms of the mission system. I think rewards could be better as well. Like if we reach the forma tier, let us have the option to unlock that in our wolf store and buy some directly there. Make it like 100 creds for 1 so it's still an investment and you'd be more limited but it would further incentives tiers.

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56 minutes ago, LAD.Y said:

Personally I don't think there's an issue with any of the challenges in and of themselves. What I think most frustrates people is the 'I'm being forced to do this thing that I wouldn't normally be doing that I find boring and/or time consuming', what I think needs to happen with the higher tier rewards (3-5k) rewards is rather than putting a rotation of set ones we HAVE to complete, give us a roster of mission for those categories that we can choose from either weekly or daily so we have more freedom to do the ones we WANT and then no one is going 'I dont have friends, this is too long, this is too rng dependent'.

IE of what I mean:

Either Daily or Weekly.

If Daily:

You give the players 3-5 mission types for 3k rewards and 5k rewards. You then select 1 or 2 out of those. The missions selected sits for the week like they currently do. You have the same amount of time to select your missions as you do for the daily 1k ones to expire. This way you minimize people complaining about missing their selections because they have lives or what have you and couldn't log on for that day to select. So this means you can miss Monday and log on Tuesday and select Monday and Tuesday's missions, and have the rest of the week to complete them.

Monday: 3k: Complete 0/5 Simaris Scans, Three Waves of Sanctuary Onslaught, Unlock All Caches in 0/3 Sabotage, Complete 0/3 Spy, Find 0/5 Rare Fish in the Plains of Eidolon
 

The player then can choose 1(2) of these to fill this 3k quota. So for example, I HATE the fishing and the Simaris Scans are just tedious, so then I can just be like 'Okay not those two', and click Spy and 3 Waves of Onslaught. Done. I know my time and level of commitment better than anyone and can better judge what's the best use of my time.

If Weekly:

Give the entire list of options, let us select however many of the 3 and 5k tiers you usually give us and that locks us into commitment. Perhaps give the players 1 reroll a week if they change their mind, but again this gives power to the players and makes it feel less like a chore.

1k options stay as they are. they're fine. But that's really my only issue with Nightwave in terms of the mission system. I think rewards could be better as well. Like if we reach the forma tier, let us have the option to unlock that in our wolf store and buy some directly there. Make it like 100 creds for 1 so it's still an investment and you'd be more limited but it would further incentives tiers.

What if I told you that that people can already choose out of the available weekly challenges? 

Every week there's 43k worth of standing of which we need 30k on average over 10 weeks. So you can choose to skip anywhere between 3 and 9 missions, if you choose wisely. 

As an example, you can skip 2 elite weekly challenges and 1 normal weekly, if you complete all of the others. Or skip all 7 daily challenges and 2 weekly for your 13k, but again you have to do all of the others. 

I've skipped quite some just because I didn't feel like doing them. 

 

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42 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

What if I told you that that people can already choose out of the available weekly challenges? 

Every week there's 43k worth of standing of which we need 30k on average over 10 weeks. So you can choose to skip anywhere between 3 and 9 missions, if you choose wisely. 

As an example, you can skip 2 elite weekly challenges and 1 normal weekly, if you complete all of the others. Or skip all 7 daily challenges and 2 weekly for your 13k, but again you have to do all of the others. 

I've skipped quite some just because I didn't feel like doing them. 

 

While what you say is valid my biggest question/issue is 'But is that really clear?' I don't think it is, cause honestly I heard there's a vauge 'you only need 60% of the nightwave to reach the 30th level' but specifically I had no idea how that translated into what we physically have to do. And the specific combinations you mentioned I would have never personalyl figured out and I doubt a lot of people would either. I think a system like what I suggested would help remove confusion. 

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