Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

It's very annoying. Boring as hell.. I'm playing less and less Warframe since the release of nightwave because it's the most boring thing ever, same with the latest event.. wtf is going on 

Just do what you were doing before Nightwave. If you don't look at the activities, you'll probably knock half of them off without even looking at the list.

Meanwhile, I've been having fun blitzing Nightmare missions with beginners. I spent more time reviving players in the last mission than killing the bosses. it is amusing recalling how I used to be that squishy.

I usually do Lua solo, But I'm thinking I will go Public on Lua Mobile defense later this week.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

19 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

So can we mention for a second how this "wolf" guy is a bad fight? For starters he has a really low spawn rate, and youre not guaranteed the hammer parts when you take him out either, but but when you do fight him it just feels cheap. Like i have six formas and a godly riven in my main and secondary guns and they do 3-4 digit damage to him. Which i could normally deal with but he also spawns with stronger than normal fugitives with the added benefit of being immortal. So your best guns dont really scratch wolf when hes there, but you also take constant fire from these immortal guys you cant take out. If youre going to nerf my damage to about 1% of what I normally do, can we at least not have immortal enemies too? The wolf takes no status and has that damage reduction which just makes it even longer that you have to be getting shot at by these twits. DE pls stahp the immortality 

I have heard the Radiation damage shreds him. I can't speak to the validity of this rumour as the one time I have faced him I was levelling on Hydron and had very low radiation damage on my kitgun.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

10 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

f that's right then the simple math brings us to 300k out of 473k which brings us squarely into the range of 60-65%.

 

The first half week only had 4 dailies for 40k total.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

10 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

Why can't we have challenges that actually relate to what a bunch of us are already doing?? Like farm 1000 kuva in a single day, or Roll a riven 10 times in a week for an elite...seriously who is in charge of coming up with the nightwave challenges??

Yes, let's have everyone burn 35000 Kuva rerolling rivens they don't need to reroll. Given how well received the Ayatan Sculpture, Forma, Modular item and Spector activities were received I'm sure that one would be very popular.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

9 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

That's the Agility one I was talking about. Again, it's... ...not bad. The slightly annoying part is getting to the top after completing it, which is why I try to bring Zephyr for it.

I think the Power, Endurance and Stealth tests are easier. You hardly have to do anything at all in them.

I just do Lua Mobile defense as there is always at least 1 Challenge, and a chance for as many as 3. I still have yet to spot the speed challenge though. It has probably been there, I just never recognized it.

[NezuHimeSama]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

You left out the bonus half week which brings it down to 63% without allowing for fugitives. Depending on your luck with fugitives it could push it down as far as 50% or less for some.

Apparently, some players were rank 29 going into week 5. I'm rank 20. I thought I had caught more from Fugitives in a previous post where I estimated the amount but it is only 12450points worth. That makes up 4% of what I need per week to reach rank 30 in 10 weeks. Others are doing much better, and I am sure there are people with much fewer captures.

Those maniacs who have reached rank 29 have caught 78,000 points worth of fugitives. Or 26% of what they needed to reach rank 30.

Maths is your friend. Learn it. Understand it. Embrace it.

The rest of your "legitimate" arguments against Nightwave equate to, "I Can't be bothered doing anything to earn them so give me all the rewards now."

Given the majority of your posts have been attacks on people who have gone out of their way to explain how people have misunderstood aspects of Nightwave, you're just trying to derail the thread. And pointing your fingers at others for what you yourself are doing.

I know people have asked you, but I haven't seen your answer. I may have missed it. But I'd love to know what rank you currently are? And if you have completed any of this week's activities yet?

26 or 27 I think? Lucked out with a lot of fugitives during the Fortuna event. Again, it's stupid to assume that's fine by design, though. I'm the exception, not the rule. I don't believe in alienating players and making the game worse just because technically I have the time to get by, assuming I don't want to do anything else with it.

Even a 50% participation rate is stupid high as a baseline for something as constant as Nightwave. And what if it ends on a half-week? What if future Nightwave seasons don't have a bonus half-week? It's stupid to assume that these things are assured.

My "attacks" have been against two particular people who have done little to provide legitimate feedback, and have dismissed legitimate criticism with elitism and ignorance, and are rarely much more than pointing that out with a bit of returned condescension for good measure. People complaining that they don't want to participate in Nightwave are still legitimate complaints, if not very direct ones; they don't enjoy the content, and there's a lot of them. Most players don't know why they do or don't like something, and can't tell you why, but you can still get a lot of valuable information from how their complaints are framed, what they complain about specifically, and how many are complaining. Dismissing these people is a good way to make them want to quit, since "well I guess warframe is only for those elitist people".

Nightwave is a terrible system as is, and any quick glance over the forums will tell you as much. I'd rather we discuss how to make it better rather than telling people off for "not doing the math" or "being lazy". Game design isn't the players' job, nor is playing something they don't want to because someone else told them it's good.

[KnossosTNC]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

I just do Lua Mobile defense as there is always at least 1 Challenge, and a chance for as many as 3. I still have yet to spot the speed challenge though. It has probably been there, I just never recognized it.

It's what looks like a narrow room with an open chamber in the middle with lots of laser plates in it. In actuality, the switches in the laser chamber opens two side rooms that are the Speed tests. Complete them both and a central platform rises, allowing you to access the portal at the top.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Precisely because there are 64 pages to dig through, I'm sure as hell not going to bother. The 60% statistic has been repeated everywhere for more than a week.

Yeah because like the nightwave challenges backing up your claims would require an effort on your part. So would actually reading what people said, apparently. 

 

The 60-65% is right from the devs and unless you have a valid reason to believe that nightwave standing won't be accumulated over "10 weeks and 4 days" , all you are doing is parroting the bad maths presented by some random on reddit who was working with extremely limited information at the time back in the first few days of Nightwave. As I said most of us have managed to move on from that because of new information, and we're not trying to convince people that the sky is falling. The current estimate of standing needed by someone who only does the challenges is closer to 63%. That figure is squarely in range of what we were told. AND THAT'S BEFORE WE FACTOR IN THE CONVICTS. So yeah, 60% is probably really all many people will need. 

The 30k/3 tiers per week minimum holds to the very strict 10 weeks, because the math is simpler for most people to follow. And let's be honest here, it seems like quite a few people have trouble following even that.

It's not being presented as the same at all. But you can keep trying to fool people with more of your bogus claims... Speaking of which.... 

7 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

The part I don't like is that nightwave as-is is garbage, and I've explained why repeatedly. You keep on trying to be elitist because "oh you just don't like effort", but again, I already explained what is wrong with nightwave and why, and effort certainly isn't a factor.

I'm still MR 16 after a year. I haven't bothered to complete all of the quests, I'm lacking quite a few of the non-prime frames, and I hav know what repeatedly identified myself as a filthy casual. Your claim of elitism is a rather silly ad hominem, but it takes almost no effort to make such a claim, so I'm not really surprised that you would try that. 

Your reasoning for Nightwave being trash included such gems as: we should be able to buy the rewards instead of participating, not letting us do that will kill the game; I hate being forced to meet specific goals in specific mission types, which is exactly how alerts used to work, and I admit that I skipped at least 99.9% of all alerts; completing the challenges would not take me less than 5 minutes each, so nightwave is trash; and of course the grapes on that vine look like they are still green, they are probably sour, I don't want them and will try to convince everyone else that they are not worth the effort too. 

7 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I've also explained what's a chore and why, and how nightwave makes it a chore, which you continue to ignore, like everything else.

If you don't want me calling you out for doing the things, stop doing the things. Better yet, stop trolling a feedback thread with "you just don't like effort" "you just don't understand" "you're just too casual" whatever garbage you keep using as an excuse to disregard legitimate feedback from actual players.

Nonsense. You've said that a chore is anything that you don't feel like doing at any given time. Nobody ignored that. We may have considered it ridiculous, but by and large we left you to your spurious definition. 

And again you're not calling anyone out. You are using ad hominem attacks, which is usually a tactic used by people who don't have valid points to back up their arguments. I've quoted you in almost every single reply that you got, highlighting the points I am addressing, so that everyone can see what I am replying to. 

Also I strongly believe that my responses to your claims are valid because from the very beginning you've made false claims with no real backing, including calling someone a liar for saying that they generally only get 6 hours of sleep on most days. 

I'm not the one who has tried to stifle feedback here. I am not the one telling people to stop posting. That's still on you. 

 

7 hours ago, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

Getting a story out, ok I like this, they should & need to do more, they nabbed it from The Warriors movie, take it all the way, because it worked & it gives the game a little more depth.

Rewards are paltry if not more so than alerts were, emblems & emotes are not worth the effort & screws new players over by putting easy to obtain mods in a rewards section, if you know the value of Nitain & somone was about to spend their wolf credits on say, rifle amp, would you tell them to do it or say dude heres an extra for free dont buy that crap.

Uh, the actual story seems to be the trope of model convict doing his time, cruel warden pushed him too far, escapes and hunts down evil warden. Nora is just the narrator. 

And the alert rewards are unchanged. The difference is that we can choose which ones we want to buy with the cred we've accumulated. The sigils, emblems, and emotes are event rewards, and not replacements for the alert rewards. Nitain is valuable only to those who need it. Even under the old system people used to just skip the nitain alerts, only to find out that there was something that they wanted and then they'd complain about it not being available when they want it. Fortunately it's relatively cheap and the new system makes it fairly abundant for the newer players. Instead of telling them what to buy, I've been trying to find ways to help others complete the challenges. 

I've taken people fishing with my bait, I've run that Silver grove mission quite a bit over the past few days, because apparently a lot of people just never bothered to scan any plants. Many of the challenges locked behind gear checks are of a type where we can help others to bypass it. I'm not hurt by doing it, and others benefit. 

I figure that's how we can make the Nightwave challenges better, by doing what some people have always done, helping one another. Not by pretending to be too good for it, or that the challenges aren't things that are integral parts of the game we all play. 

[NezuHimeSama]

4 hours ago, M4T2E said:

Ok, I want to bring it back to constructiv feedback:

I would like to see a system with building up own challenge/difficulty.
You'll always have different players, with different play-styles so it needs a system that can be scaled by themself.
Just a quick base sample:
Earn 100 points by extermination missions (extermination lvl 60 enemies = 25 points; extermination lvl 30 enemies = 10 points; extermination lvl 10 enemies = 2 point).

That's a pretty good idea actually. But, I think it doesn't address the underlying issue of the expiry date forcing players to play in a way they don't enjoy, just to not miss out on the rewards.

The biggest issue with nightwave, imo, continues to be that it's both time gated in terms of progress, but also in terms of it's expiry, putting pressure on the player to play on the game's schedule, and not their own.

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah because like the nightwave challenges backing up your claims would require an effort on your part. So would actually reading what people said, apparently. 

 

The 60-65% is right from the devs and unless you have a valid reason to believe that nightwave standing won't be accumulated over "10 weeks and 4 days" , all you are doing is parroting the bad maths presented by some random on reddit who was working with extremely limited information at the time back in the first few days of Nightwave. As I said most of us have managed to move on from that because of new information, and we're not trying to convince people that the sky is falling. The current estimate of standing needed by someone who only does the challenges is closer to 63%. That figure is squarely in range of what we were told. AND THAT'S BEFORE WE FACTOR IN THE CONVICTS. So yeah, 60% is probably really all many people will need. 

The 30k/3 tiers per week minimum holds to the very strict 10 weeks, because the math is simpler for most people to follow. And let's be honest here, it seems like quite a few people have trouble following even that.

It's not being presented as the same at all. But you can keep trying to fool people with more of your bogus claims... Speaking of which.... 

I'm still MR 16 after a year. I haven't bothered to complete all of the quests, I'm lacking quite a few of the non-prime frames, and I hav know what repeatedly identified myself as a filthy casual. Your claim of elitism is a rather silly ad hominem, but it takes almost no effort to make such a claim, so I'm not really surprised that you would try that. 

Your reasoning for Nightwave being trash included such gems as: we should be able to buy the rewards instead of participating, not letting us do that will kill the game; I hate being forced to meet specific goals in specific mission types, which is exactly how alerts used to work, and I admit that I skipped at least 99.9% of all alerts; completing the challenges would not take me less than 5 minutes each, so nightwave is trash; and of course the grapes on that vine look like they are still green, they are probably sour, I don't want them and will try to convince everyone else that they are not worth the effort too. 

Nonsense. You've said that a chore is anything that you don't feel like doing at any given time. Nobody ignored that. We may have considered it ridiculous, but by and large we left you to your spurious definition. 

And again you're not calling anyone out. You are using ad hominem attacks, which is usually a tactic used by people who don't have valid points to back up their arguments. I've quoted you in almost every single reply that you got, highlighting the points I am addressing, so that everyone can see what I am replying to. 

Also I strongly believe that my responses to your claims are valid because from the very beginning you've made false claims with no real backing, including calling someone a liar for saying that they generally only get 6 hours of sleep on most days. 

I'm not the one who has tried to stifle feedback here. I am not the one telling people to stop posting. That's still on you.

Actually, I did the math on the numbers presented to me in this topic, that didn't add up with the other numbers presented to me in this topic. And then people got uppity about it. Mostly you, and your elitism.

Elitism of casualness is still elitism, and is just as common as elitism of hardcoreness. Just look at all the silly console gamers that get mad at anyone who has higher standards of performance than 60fps, or at people who want higher refreshrate displays. Elitism is elitism. It doesn't matter if it's low bar elitism or not.

I didn't say we should be able to buy rewards, I said a time gated system where there isn't a way to bypass it is bad because not everyone has the time. That's how everything else in warframe has been and what makes it an attractive product, but of course, acknowledging what I actually said would be inconvenient for your elitism.

I seriously doubt anyone played even 10% of Warframe's alerts. That's just silly to pretend everyone did them all. And elitist, again.

I explained why it's a chore, too, and you ignored that in order to twist what was said to suit your elitism.

From the very beginning, you've made false claims of what others have been saying, as well as about nightwave, and about yourself. Usually for the sake of your elitism.

I never told anyone to stop providing feedback. I asked you to stop derailing the feedback thread with your elitism and trolling, so that we can make nightwave better, rather than more elitist.

Also, for good measure, elitism

 

[NezuHimeSama]

10 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

It's what looks like a narrow room with an open chamber in the middle with lots of laser plates in it. In actuality, the switches in the laser chamber opens two side rooms that are the Speed tests. Complete them both and a central platform rises, allowing you to access the portal at the top.

Oh, is that how that works?

Assuming I'm thinking about the right one; it's the one with two glowing switches at either exit of the room, two press balls, and a bunch of inactive laser panels?

I never did figure out wtf to do in there.

[Enialyx]

12 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

3 Assassination missions
Find all caches in 3 Sabotage missions
8 Plains of Eidolon Bounties
Kill 500 enemies
3 Spy missions
3 Mobile Defense missions
Open 4 Orokin Derelict vaults
(Elite) 4 Lua Halls of Ascension
(Elite) 3 Rounds of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught
(Elite) 10 Nightmare Missions

Thanks, KnosssosTNC, for the list.

This totals to 39 missions. The only one of these I benefit from is the 8 PoE bounties. This makes it 31 chores for the week = many hours of boring busywork.

Please,
1) bin the whole Chorewave
2) bring back alerts
3) use money & resources for making,
3.1) quests
3.2) another enemy faction
3.3) more maps

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

35 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

26 or 27 I think? Lucked out with a lot of fugitives during the Fortuna event. Again, it's stupid to assume that's fine by design, though. I'm the exception, not the rule. I don't believe in alienating players and making the game worse just because technically I have the time to get by, assuming I don't want to do anything else with it.

Even a 50% participation rate is stupid high as a baseline for something as constant as Nightwave. And what if it ends on a half-week? What if future Nightwave seasons don't have a bonus half-week? It's stupid to assume that these things are assured.

My "attacks" have been against two particular people who have done little to provide legitimate feedback, and have dismissed legitimate criticism with elitism and ignorance, and are rarely much more than pointing that out with a bit of returned condescension for good measure. People complaining that they don't want to participate in Nightwave are still legitimate complaints, if not very direct ones; they don't enjoy the content, and there's a lot of them. Most players don't know why they do or don't like something, and can't tell you why, but you can still get a lot of valuable information from how their complaints are framed, what they complain about specifically, and how many are complaining. Dismissing these people is a good way to make them want to quit, since "well I guess warframe is only for those elitist people".

Nightwave is a terrible system as is, and any quick glance over the forums will tell you as much. I'd rather we discuss how to make it better rather than telling people off for "not doing the math" or "being lazy". Game design isn't the players' job, nor is playing something they don't want to because someone else told them it's good.

1

Congrats, for a person who complains about how much of a chore it is you have done way more than me, a person who is enjoying it.

50% participation is extremely generous to get all the rewards. 

I've provided plenty of legitimate feedback. Just because you don't like that some of my feedback is explaining to people whose complaints are clear misunderstandings of Night Wave, how they have misunderstood something and how they have nothing to be concerned about does not change the fact it is legitimate. Feedback is not just complaints and negative outlooks. Feedback is also positive and supportive. 

A lot of people complaints about night wave are legitimate, Like Ayatans, Gilding, Forma. 8 bounties, and Spectors. I agree with their complaints on those. But complaining about something that is not true, simply because people don't understand, or because people want everything right now, is not legitimate.
 

There is nothing elitist about Nightwave, and I get that you don't like it so you like to elevate the fearmongering complaints that are based on misunderstandings. But constructive feedback on their complaints is legitimate.
 

Any quick glance over the forum will tell me that 4% of the player base may not be happy with it. And part of that percentage just like to complain about changes while engaging with it more than anyone else.
 

I don't tell people off "for not doing the math." There is no such thing as math.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

38 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Oh, is that how that works?

Assuming I'm thinking about the right one; it's the one with two glowing switches at either exit of the room, two press balls, and a bunch of inactive laser panels?

I never did figure out wtf to do in there.

Yeah, I think I may have run passed it a once or twice not realising. Imma need to watch more videos and try and memorize it I think.

[NezuHimeSama]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Congrats, for a person who complains about how much of a chore it is you have done way more than me, a person who is enjoying it.

50% participation is extremely generous to get all the rewards. 

I've provided plenty of legitimate feedback. Just because you don't like that some of my feedback is explaining to people whose complaints are clear misunderstandings of Night Wave, how they have misunderstood something and how they have nothing to be concerned about does not change the fact it is legitimate. Feedback is not just complaints and negative outlooks. Feedback is also positive and supportive. 

A lot of people complaints about night wave are legitimate, Like Ayatans, Gilding, Forma. 8 bounties, and Spectors. I agree with their complaints on those. But complaining about something that is not true, simply because people don't understand, or because people want everything right now, is not legitimate.
 

There is nothing elitist about Nightwave, and I get that you don't like it so you like to elevate the fearmongering complaints that are based on misunderstandings. But constructive feedback on their complaints is legitimate.
 

Any quick glance over the forum will tell me that 4% of the player base may not be happy with it. And part of that percentage just like to complain about changes while engaging with it more than anyone else.
 

I don't tell people off "for not doing the math." There is no such thing as math.

50% participation rate is not generous. This isn't something you can do at your own pace, you have to do it at the pace it sets, at the time it tells you to. 50% is nowhere near generous for something like that. Even PSO2 only requires TACOs weekly now, and it's the golden turd for wasting my goddamn time. Warframe being worse than that is not a good sign.

Dismissive "feedback" is not feedback, it's just dismissive.

Complaining about it being a chore is very legitimate, and there are a lot of reasons that make it a chore. Dismissing that as illegitimate because you think doing 50% of the doubly time gated thing is fine does not make those concerns not legitimate.

Nightwave is just a thing in a game, but the dismissive attitude towards players with concerns is elitist, and gives players the impression that they aren't wanted unless they jump through those hoops.

4% actively complaining is a lot, actually. Vast majority of WF players will never look at the forum, but Nightwave has been the hot topic since it came out, and most of it has been about what's wrong with it for a reason; there's a lot wrong with it. It needs fixing. Telling people "no no it's fine the way it is you're just wrong to not like this" isn't helping it improve. Same with the broken enemy design in Orb Vallis. There's nothing acceptable about every enemy having a nullifier bubble with no satelite, or enemies spawning completely invulnerable to everything, or turning invincible frequently, or having super-fast shield regeneration that builds overshields constantly.

There are things that need some fixing, and telling people to not complain about them isn't going to fix those things. I'd rather see Warframe be the best game it can be, and not just good enough for people with low standards.

 

It also has a further unfortunate side effect of highlighting the problems with other areas of the game, because you're forced into playing content again that was dropped because it wasn't fun. If people are only logging in to play until they get a reward, there's a problem with the game's design. It's not because you don't have enough carrots on enough sticks, it's because the content isn't holding up.

Edited April 1, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[KnossosTNC]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Oh, is that how that works?

Assuming I'm thinking about the right one; it's the one with two glowing switches at either exit of the room, two press balls, and a bunch of inactive laser panels?

I never did figure out wtf to do in there.

Yup, sounds like it. Just hit the switch in the room, then look for a door that opens on the side.

1 hour ago, Enialyx said:

Thanks, KnosssosTNC, for the list.

This totals to 39 missions. The only one of these I benefit from is the 8 PoE bounties. This makes it 31 chores for the week = many hours of boring busywork.

Please,
1) bin the whole Chorewave
2) bring back alerts
3) use money & resources for making,
3.1) quests
3.2) another enemy faction
3.3) more maps

Meh. As I said, I pair them up together, or with stuff I already do. I've just completed both the Mobile Defense one and the Nightmares one together a few moments ago. I've also completed the Lua Ascension Halls one and the Spy ones together. I'm currently farming for Kavat DNA, so all I had to do is carry a Dragon Key or two with my Ivara. I'll wait for Equinox Prime or next Unvaulting to do the Bounties one. As I said, piece of cake.

And I've already made my opinions clear about what I think of Alerts: I do not miss the disruptions it has caused on my daily life. Being able to go to bed or go out shopping without sparing even a single iota of thought on Warframe is a blessing.

Nightwave is far from perfect, as I've also made clear. There are issues with the effort-versus-reward balance, and its does not match the Alerts' instant-reward loop. But those things can be improved, and Nightwave does accomplish the fundamental objective of eliminating the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose.

If DE are going to replace Nightwave, I will only accept a system that similarly eliminates the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose.

Edited April 1, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[NezuHimeSama]

I think it's clear that the thing to do is fix the glaring issues with nightwave, rather than replace all that work that went into it. Most of it's problems are really stupid and really obvious and really really easy to fix.

But, you could say that about a lot of things in warframe lately.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

9 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

50% participation rate is not generous. This isn't something you can do at your own pace, you have to do it at the pace it sets, at the time it tells you to. 50% is nowhere near generous for something like that. Even PSO2 only requires TACOs weekly now, and it's the golden turd for wasting my goddamn time. Warframe being worse than that is not a good sign

 

It is extremely generous. 75% to get all the rewards would still be acceptable. You are not supposed to get all the rewards if you don't put in a decent effort. You have put it way more effort than most. You could easily cut back and maybe you would enjoy it way more.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Yup, sounds like it. Just hit the switch in the room, then look for a door that opens on the side.

Meh. As I said, I pair them up together, or with stuff I already do. I've just completed both the Mobile Defense one and the Nightmares one together a few moments ago. I've also completed the Lua Ascension Halls one and the Spy ones together. I'm currently farming for Kavat DNA, so all I had to do is carry a Dragon Key or two with my Ivara. I'll wait for Equinox Prime or next Unvaulting to do the Bounties one. As I said, piece of cake.

And I've already made my opinions clear about what I think of Alerts: I do not miss the disruptions it has caused on my daily life. Being able to go to bed or go out shopping without sparing even a single iota of thought on Warframe is a blessing.

Nightwave is far from perfect, as I've also made clear. There are issues with the effort-versus-reward balance, and its does not match the Alerts' instant-reward loop. But those things can be improved, and Nightwave does accomplish the fundamental objective of eliminating the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose.

If DE are going to replace Nightwave, I will only accept a system that similarly eliminates the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-loss.

You make valid points about the randomized times alerts could be launched being very disruptive and the short duration made it that much worse. And yes the challenges do synergise well with one another and what we can reasonably expect to do in a given week anyway. 

 

 

5 hours ago, M4T2E said:

Ok, I want to bring it back to constructiv feedback:

I would like to see a system with building up own challenge/difficulty.
You'll always have different players, with different play-styles so it needs a system that can be scaled by themself.
Just a quick base sample:
Earn 100 points by extermination missions (extermination lvl 60 enemies = 25 points; extermination lvl 30 enemies = 10 points; extermination lvl 10 enemies = 2 point).

That's a terrible idea because it makes it significantly harder for the newbs to complete the challenge than the vets. For you a level 10 enemy might die before you even walk into the room. For a newb, who would benefit the most from the alert rewards in Nightwave, that's really unfair. 

5 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

Which is exactly why I'm dissatisfied with many of the current Nightwave missions. There is no distinction between doing the bare minimum to get the rounds to count and going out of your way. Take for instance, if they had tweaked the Bounty mission to factor more than just being there when it is completed, you could have it so that you have the option of doing 1 or 2 Bounties at the highest tier or 7 at the lowest tier. It would at least bring back some level of limited choice for players while rewarding people for doing things better by having them not sit through 30 Bounties over the month.

But anytime any suggestion on how the conditions could have been done, you get a weird pushback from people who either claim "I can do them so they are fine and shouldn't be changed" or "If you don't like them, don't do them ". There is another thread specifically on this topic, just see the responses to suggestions yourself.

To some, that is the bare minimum, but for a weaker player, it's still a challenge. Making it harder for them isn't really fair, while vets can choose to go after the harder enemies instead of doing the majority of the challenges in the starter zone. 

3 hours ago, M4T2E said:

Currently Nightwave isn't that bad, but alerts wasn't that bad too.

I enoy that the pressure of missing items from timelimited alerts is gone.
On the other side, the alerts often carried me over some less interesting times, just by playing alert missions on chain.
Now I take a look into Nightwave and it needs around two days to play my weekly acts and skip the few ones I don't like.
The daily acts are done mostly in under 10 minutes.

So from playing I would prefer the Alerts, but from time pressure I would prefer Nightwave.

The only thing that worries me a bit is the low chance to encounter Wolf of Saturn Six (2x for me), but DE confirmed a higher chance later in this series.

Maybe some players mix up Nightwave Acts with Nightmare Mode.

Ironically some people are complaining loudly about the time limitations in Nightwave. Even though they are generally 3 times longer than the most generous (the 24hr GotL) alerts we had before. 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Just do what you were doing before Nightwave. If you don't look at the activities, you'll probably knock half of them off without even looking at the list.

Meanwhile, I've been having fun blitzing Nightmare missions with beginners. I spent more time reviving players in the last mission than killing the bosses. it is amusing recalling how I used to be that squishy.

I usually do Lua solo, But I'm thinking I will go Public on Lua Mobile defense later this week.

Yeah, and without the help some of them wouldn't have gotten those challenges done. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

The first half week only had 4 dailies for 40k total.

Noted, thanks for the correction. So 300k out of 470k. 

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That's a pretty good idea actually. But, I think it doesn't address the underlying issue of the expiry date forcing players to play in a way they don't enjoy, just to not miss out on the rewards.

The biggest issue with nightwave, imo, continues to be that it's both time gated in terms of progress, but also in terms of it's expiry, putting pressure on the player to play on the game's schedule, and not their own.

 

Actually, I did the math on the numbers presented to me in this topic, that didn't add up with the other numbers presented to me in this topic. And then people got uppity about it. Mostly you, and your elitism.

Elitism of casualness is still elitism, and is just as common as elitism of hardcoreness. Just look at all the silly console gamers that get mad at anyone who has higher standards of performance than 60fps, or at people who want higher refreshrate displays. Elitism is elitism. It doesn't matter if it's low bar elitism or not.

I didn't say we should be able to buy rewards, I said a time gated system where there isn't a way to bypass it is bad because not everyone has the time. That's how everything else in warframe has been and what makes it an attractive product, but of course, acknowledging what I actually said would be inconvenient for your elitism.

I seriously doubt anyone played even 10% of Warframe's alerts. That's just silly to pretend everyone did them all. And elitist, again.

I explained why it's a chore, too, and you ignored that in order to twist what was said to suit your elitism.

From the very beginning, you've made false claims of what others have been saying, as well as about nightwave, and about yourself. Usually for the sake of your elitism.

I never told anyone to stop providing feedback. I asked you to stop derailing the feedback thread with your elitism and trolling, so that we can make nightwave better, rather than more elitist.

Also, for good measure, elitism

 

Ad hominems, and stuff that's verifiably false. You also attacked someone who said that they get less than 8hrs of beauty rest on the average weekday. But hey, keep trying to fool people who might be interested in being fooled by you. 

I really enjoyed reading that "casuals are the true elites" bit. Does that sort of nonsense usually work out well for you? Seriously, you're not going to be very good at gaslighting people who often quote what you said. You may want to consider a different tactic. 

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Congrats, for a person who complains about how much of a chore it is you have done way more than me, a person who is enjoying it.

50% participation is extremely generous to get all the rewards. 

I've provided plenty of legitimate feedback. Just because you don't like that some of my feedback is explaining to people whose complaints are clear misunderstandings of Night Wave, how they have misunderstood something and how they have nothing to be concerned about does not change the fact it is legitimate. Feedback is not just complaints and negative outlooks. Feedback is also positive and supportive. 

A lot of people complaints about night wave are legitimate, Like Ayatans, Gilding, Forma. 8 bounties, and Spectors. I agree with their complaints on those. But complaining about something that is not true, simply because people don't understand, or because people want everything right now, is not legitimate.
 

There is nothing elitist about Nightwave, and I get that you don't like it so you like to elevate the fearmongering complaints that are based on misunderstandings. But constructive feedback on their complaints is legitimate.
 

Any quick glance over the forum will tell me that 4% of the player base may not be happy with it. And part of that percentage just like to complain about changes while engaging with it more than anyone else.
 

I don't tell people off "for not doing the math." There is no such thing as math.

A lot more than me too. And it seems to be a case of the wheel pretending to be squeaky in order to get the grease. 

It's clear that there's a highly vocal minority that doesn't like having people disagree with them. So posts like ours that lay out the facts and figures need to suppressed. 

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

It is extremely generous. 75% to get all the rewards would still be acceptable. You are not supposed to get all the rewards if you don't put in a decent effort. You have put it way more effort than most. You could easily cut back and maybe you would enjoy it way more.

Yes but then whatever would there be to complain about? 

[M4T2E]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

That's a terrible idea because it makes it significantly harder for the newbs to complete the challenge than the vets. For you a level 10 enemy might die before you even walk into the room. For a newb, who would benefit the most from the alert rewards in Nightwave, that's really unfair. 

Sorry, I guess I'm not getting it. Do you mean the timegate, because a newb would have to play 50 extermination missions with lvl 10 enemies where a veteran can reach the same with playing 4 extermination missions with lvl 60 enemies?
With such a system I would just play some exterminations and take a look at my points from time to time. A similar system is often used during events.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Ironically some people are complaining loudly about the time limitations in Nightwave. Even though they are generally 3 times longer than the most generous (the 24hr GotL) alerts we had before.

That's a point. It's hard to track the Nightwave progress related to the large timespan. You have to calculate around to know if you are still able to reach rewards when you skip some acts or are not able to play for a week.

[Tillburg]

Honestly Nightwave has finally done something to Warframe I was hoping would never happen: it's made Warframe feel like a job. The second time I saw "collect 6 rare fish from the Plains of Eidolon" I remember sighing thinking, "wait I just did that last week..." and came to remember that same feeling I always got from dailies/weeklies in MMOs or games with MMO feelings to them. About the time it started feeling tedious is the time I dropped off the game as a whole... and that's where we're at for Warframe and I.

Let's talk about what Warframe had. The alerts weren't THAT exciting, but they were non-committal and I never felt stressed to get them done. Then we start implementing Nightwave and I feel a pang in the back of my neck to get 5 sorties done sometime in one week or chart out time after work to find a friend and do that hour long kuva survival (sounds like that one is at least being addressed). I was excited at first for the changes, but after a few weeks of Nightwave I miss the alerts.

In a perfect world I wish we had a mixture of both; in other words: alerts but with WAY more variety like 1) really long survival, 2) go get some rare fish, 3) kill X enemies with radiation damage, 4) get an index win, etc. There is a lot of variety in Nightwave that should have just been thrown in into the alert system in my opinion. As it stands: I think Nightwave will start stressing players into a dailies / weeklies mindset that burns players out of current MMO pools. I wouldn't be surprised if Warframe burnout increased dramatically if this format stays.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

16 minutes ago, M4T2E said:

Sorry, I guess I'm not getting it. Do you mean the timegate, because a newb would have to play 50 extermination missions with lvl 10 enemies where a veteran can reach the same with playing 4 extermination missions with lvl 60 enemies?
With such a system I would just play some exterminations and take a look at my points from time to time. A similar system is often used during events.

Not time gate, effort required to complete the challenge. Vets can often kill the same number of higher level enemies without much more effort than it would take a newb to kill the low ranked enemies. So why should the newb who needs as many of the first 24 ranks as possible, have to do 10x more work? Doesn't really seem fair. 

 

16 minutes ago, M4T2E said:

That's a point. It's hard to track the Nightwave progress related to the large timespan. You have to calculate around to know if you are still able to reach rewards when you skip some acts or are not able to play for a week

Well I've been just checking where I am in the tiers vs (3 x number of weeks) if I'm ahead of that then I'm good to go. If I'm behind, then I need to pick up the pace. 

[TheFBD]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I seriously doubt anyone played even 10% of Warframe's alerts. That's just silly to pretend everyone did them all. And elitist, again

I completely agree with your post and wanted to add to this point. Everyone who played warframe for a bit knows that alerts were a big help for new players. Getting ressources, credits etc. And if they could not do the mission, or the mission type was not their kind, they could just skip it and wait for the same reward showing up with a different mission. That was the beauty of random alerts. They were random. And randomness is fair (even though we usually (unreasonably) doubt that when RNG jesus is not on our side).

This also worked fine for advanced players. I never got up late at night just because there was an alert with something i need/want. I think hardly anyone did. And that's fine because you know it will come around again. AFAIR the longest rotation in the old alerts was the "rarest" vauban part which only showed up once a month. When i was getting him, i missed the first two times it showed up, passed on the third time (spy mission, hate those, thanks, pass). But got it the next time. That's fine and straightforward.

The point is: We could choose our battles. Pass on mission types we don't like, get the same reward with a different type next time. And that next time wasn't too far away. With nightwave that radio dj (who's still listening to radion in that future??) sais "Jump" and we have to jump! Sure, you can pass a few challenges, but we see those always come around again. Pass too often and you're out.

And then we don't know when the next time will be we can "participate" - assuming it's a recurring event at all. Nightwave is apparently endlessly repeating (and so will be the challenges), but if the Wolf of Saturn Six will ever come around again? Nobody knows. So we are locked on what we play with an artifical time limit - if we don't want to miss out. Try explaining nightwave to a returning player who looks at it for the first time today. Well, better hope you're around when it starts again, in like 6-8 months. Maybe.

[Enialyx]

6 minutes ago, TheFBD said:

Everyone who played warframe for a bit knows that alerts were a big help for new players. (...) This also worked fine for advanced players.

- plus everything else -

Indeed. And Nightwave is horrible for both new players and veterans looking for something specific. Say you want a certain helmet,

With alerts, you wait for the alert and are done.

vs.

With Nightwave, you grind ~50 missions. This takes more than a week. Then, you wait for the helmet to appear in the cred store, which can take many weeks. And if you start in the middle of the season, you may never see it. Credits reset. All the grind was for naught.

Yet people keep saying that Nightwave is more convenient and respects your time.

[NezuHimeSama]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

It is extremely generous. 75% to get all the rewards would still be acceptable. You are not supposed to get all the rewards if you don't put in a decent effort. You have put it way more effort than most. You could easily cut back and maybe you would enjoy it way more.

Considering how significant some of the later rewards is? Especially Umbra Forma? Yeah, no, 50% is not generous. If the rewards from the linear progression were insignificant, I would agree. If you could play it at your own pace instead of being told to constantly speed up and slow down, I would agree. As of right now, it's a game paced like a job that demands more than half your weeks.

 

To add to this, the main reason alerts were never really a problem, despite not really being a well designed or implemented system, is because there wasn't anything too significant in the pool that wasn't also super common. The occasional forma or potato that you might miss out on, but you get enough of those from devstreams and invasions, and they're also cheap enough and easy to get by selling a few mods or prime parts. Everything else either comes up often(nitain) or just doesn't matter(credits, common resources, get-once blueprints)

Whenever something important was added to the rotation, people complained until it wasn't important anymore. Same thing with sorties, they sucked and felt like a slog until the rewards weren't set to expire.

Edited April 1, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[NezuHimeSama]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You make valid points about the randomized times alerts could be launched being very disruptive and the short duration made it that much worse. And yes the challenges do synergise well with one another and what we can reasonably expect to do in a given week anyway. 

 

 

That's a terrible idea because it makes it significantly harder for the newbs to complete the challenge than the vets. For you a level 10 enemy might die before you even walk into the room. For a newb, who would benefit the most from the alert rewards in Nightwave, that's really unfair. 

To some, that is the bare minimum, but for a weaker player, it's still a challenge. Making it harder for them isn't really fair, while vets can choose to go after the harder enemies instead of doing the majority of the challenges in the starter zone. 

Ironically some people are complaining loudly about the time limitations in Nightwave. Even though they are generally 3 times longer than the most generous (the 24hr GotL) alerts we had before. 

Yeah, and without the help some of them wouldn't have gotten those challenges done. 

Noted, thanks for the correction. So 300k out of 470k. 

Ad hominems, and stuff that's verifiably false. You also attacked someone who said that they get less than 8hrs of beauty rest on the average weekday. But hey, keep trying to fool people who might be interested in being fooled by you. 

I really enjoyed reading that "casuals are the true elites" bit. Does that sort of nonsense usually work out well for you? Seriously, you're not going to be very good at gaslighting people who often quote what you said. You may want to consider a different tactic. 

A lot more than me too. And it seems to be a case of the wheel pretending to be squeaky in order to get the grease. 

It's clear that there's a highly vocal minority that doesn't like having people disagree with them. So posts like ours that lay out the facts and figures need to suppressed. 

Yes but then whatever would there be to complain about? 

Sleep is for more than beauty. It's very unhealthy to get less than 8~10hr nightly, contrary to what american culture will tell you. Lack of sleep might even explain your terrible attitude. Heck, a good night's might even help you read what's written instead of just what you make up in your head.

Edited April 1, 2019 by NezuHimeSama