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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm not against power fantasy, I agree that's important.  Equally important though is aspirational content with appropriate challenge level, of which warframe has none and the devs seem allergic to producing.  This is actually the thing that keeps holding the game back, the devs inability to cater to non casuals in any meaningful way.  Even when they try, they nerf it into the ground almost immediately (see exploiter orb, ESO, arbitrations, etc.) so that any newbstain can hack the content in under 100 hours.  It's obnoxious and it's really the reason I physically can't bring myself to play warframe anywhere near as much as I used to.  Until they manage to produce said content my account is basically in maintenance mode, meaning, i knock out weekly challenges in 2 hours and then do five minutes of dailies because I can't be bothered for anything else.  I can trade a 1000+p a day if I want, but why?  What's the point?  Why care?  There is nothing to aspire to and no meaningful challenge and when it comes to endless, the rewards actually get worse over time (after 40 min you cease to one shot, meaning drops come literally half as often and it only gets worse from there) and the main restriction of endless game mode is about whether or not you have to pee since in a squad it's dumb easy to cheese forever, and solo you can cheese for hours with unfun game play until you get hit by a random anything from behind you couldn't see coming and are 1 shotted.  Until they fix this the game basically is about earning more until you bore yourself to death, and that's my problem with introducing more power creep at this time.  Power creep needs to exist for the lifespan of a game, but DE has erred so far in the realm of power creep that any meaningful sense of gameplay is lost.  I can play with legit MR 18s who are not by any stretch "noobs" and still do 90% damage for the squad while barely working up the effort to care/try.  That's a problem in that at this point I should be operating at a different level of game play from them, let alone the MR 2 with his baby excal that quits every mission they join with me because they literally can't play the game and instead they do the loot walk until they get bored.  It's a problem.

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

Edited by NezuHimeSama

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2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

I don't disagree.

I guess you're right, as a new player the game can suck a lot because there is no real form of in game tutorial.

That said, i can sorta understand why, the obvious portion is that the more secretive success is, the more cash people waste on pointless things they don't need to buy, like base warframes and resources and stuff.

On the other hand I did make a newbie tutorial for my clan, and it works great, but it's also about 20 pages plus links to articles that are several pages.  Plus it needs constant maintenance, plus any real tutorial would likely hurt their partner program as well.

That said, while I get why, I also don't care and would rather the play experience be rewarding and feel good from beginning to whatever semblance of endgame might one day occur (which it won't).  

 

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3 hours ago, random__noob said:

Not quite true really. Shamelessly quoting myself here:

 

QUOTE: Food for thought: There is a quest system implemented into the game that doesnt try to bore us to death by saying "Do 10 nightmare missions, even though you by now have everything they are good for and it is just plain annoying when we make EVERY nightmare mission have Energy Drain Modifier"

Give us Riven-Like quest cards instead of this endurance test, stuff like "Kill 10 enemies (while wall running) (and while you only have a melee weapon equipped) (and while undetected). The higher your mastery, the more of these modifiers are added. Then allow us to reroll these quests by spending Nano Spores, Gallium and Alloy Plates if we think they suck. The more you played the game, the less patience and use you will have for stuff like the suggested 10 nightmare missions or 4 Vault runs. You think I enjoy stuffing another Overextended into my collection? Especially now since so many people were forced to do Vault runs, now EVERYBODY has them and they are absolutely useless?

Give us a combination-challenge system that we can reroll if we feel its ridiculous. Make the Quest difficulty depend on the mastery. If you think it is too hard, you can reroll the quest by using resources with ONE recepie keeping the mastery difficulty the same, one leveling the difficulty up and one leveling the difficulty down. Please use resources we HAVE for being patient with the game for many years, not resources you think are fancy and we think are garbage, like Arbitration Essence (its garbage and you know it)

It’s an interesting proposal but it would probably be really difficult to implement it from scratch in a reasonable amount of time. Also if I'm honest I haven't really bothered to unlock many rivens, particularly the ones that took me away from just playing the game. I generally saw them as just chores that had nothing to do with the game. 

Ironically it seems to me, as though many people who dislike the current system, seem to be upset that it's asking them to play the game. 

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm not against power fantasy, I agree that's important.  Equally important though is aspirational content with appropriate challenge level, of which warframe has none and the devs seem allergic to producing.  

=snip=

 So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

And I already explained that Nightwave is a combination of problems. Alert rewards were a thing you got once, and the majority of it was cosmetic. You're not free to do that now because if you skip 90% of weeks, you don't get anything, no matter how many hours you sink.

I've answered every question you've asked, usually immediately before you ask it again. You obviously don't want a conversation, so there's no point in pointing them out; you'll just ignore them and then ask again, pretending it was never answered.

Oh but we're free to skip it in the exact same way that we were to skip the alerts. The only consequence is that we won't get the rewards that we have not earned which you have to admit is perfectly fair. That's exactly what happened every time you skipped an alert. That's been explained to you, many times in this thread. Perhaps you just ignored it the way you did with all those alerts? 

Since you answered it, linking to the post or quoting it will be very easy to do. I'm sure you will find where you specified what in game activities you enjoy and are not "chores". (Which means that you didn't just say "I enjoy doing things that aren't the things that I decide are 'chores'".) 

It’s not even a tough question, so I'm sure it's easy to find the answer you gave or to just toss out a few examples. 

6 hours ago, Enialyx said:

 

He's been doing bait & dismiss for 30+ pages now. Basic troll tactic.

Incredible, really, that this can go on for so long. And in a DE staff thread too.

Yes incredible, because it's false. If that were remotely close to the truth then one of you would have simply just reported that long ago. Of course falsely accusing someone who is disagreeing in a civil and rational way, of trolling, etc., etc. is in itself a very toxic act. Might want to think about that. 

There's a reason why I quote what I am replying to, and give links to the previous posts I am referring to. I don't just claim that I have answered something, I show it. I've done the math repeatedly, and will probably do so again if there's a reason, or at least quote an earlier post with the information. I'm providing the evidence and my take on it, and invite people to disagree if they are able to do the same. 

Since they're claiming that they answered the simple question, but refusing to just quote it, that ought to suggest something to you. If you want to you can help them out by finding the answer you seem to believe that they gave, I'd be grateful to you. 

The question was what specific activities they enjoy. Remember, "Feedback is not just about saying what you dislike : it's also about suggesting improvements." So far they haven't shown what they enjoy, and the improvements they seem to have suggested seem to be contradictory with the rest of their posts. It's all been negatives, which is fine, but many of the claims that have been made by them, are blatantly false as has been shown repeatedly. Like the one above about not being free to skip the Nightwave the same way they skipped the majority of the alerts. 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-01 at 6:32 AM, Marvelous_A said:

Surprised it actually took some players several weeks to find out

Not really, but the fear that it would be like this, was there along. (It is within the cries of the community, so much that they have made a is still going on with this many pages) But what ever. I am here for it to be better. But if it won't, I won't bother with it much, unto to the following seasons forward. I have mentioned in my first post here that I wouldn't say much about the content but more on how De would bring it out (or execution) before the second season hits, since this is the defining moment of the system before it becomes something that we, as players, can't voice much over with power without it being a group thing before changes can and will be implied. As the voice of many will only be the thing they will be listening to by then. 

De has not made it any better and has implemented several of rehashes into the first season. Something which, I, personally, find lacking. Because it does shows that either they had nothing to begin with or did not find their original ideas worthy of us as players. I know that they like to tailor the experience around players, but that is also what everything around us do. And they are failing miserably, to capture the attention of the majority. Because of the fatigue of the promise of the perfect world / experience. Personally I deny everything that does this, and take several steps back whenever I feel like something I touch and wish to experience new and rough as it were, presenting me with this perfect thing of how I like it, without me telling it do so or even giving a hint of wanting / experience to do so.

I also do understand that these were probably one of the few, where the feedback was the least negative in comparison to the first or some before. However, I still do believe that they should have gone with their original intent and release all weeks with the original challenges that they had in mind and changes it only after the second season,while implementing changes to other things around the core concept only. Like the episodes and wolf credits rewards and the Nightwave rep outside the Nightwave challenges. Or something like how Nightwave is able to take over like that, you know story and lore stuff. But with real impact into the world of Warframe. But it didn't, like all other empty syndicates. 

And we're here ...
In this moment, at this heap that has a high probability to get better within time oR get revamped into another thing that might be somewhat better because we'll have to live with it and will not be revisited for sometime. Looking at you, nyx and vauban  Or degenerated to oblivion. ember and mirage

 

On 2019-04-01 at 9:03 AM, Tellakey said:

Quick suggestion. Nightwave's current formula relies on time-sinks under the misleading name of "challenges". I think the devs know full well that none of the challenges require any effort other than patience to complete. No skill, no expertise, etc... Here, then, a few suggestions that may tip the devs on what challenging tasks could (emphasis on could) look like. Let me first chalk away any presumption that I know best or that I necessarily think I'm right. This is merely my idea of challenge in Warframe, a game whose over-emphasis on power fantasy quashes any potential for actual challenge.

Here's the list, which I will supplement on the occasion:

  • Headshot X enemies in a row from a wall-latch.
  • Headshot X enemies with a bow from aim-glide.
  • Kill X enemies with a combination of melee and gunplay over X amount of time.
  • Kill X enemies while wall-running.
  • Kill X enemies while jumping from wall to wall.
  • Complete a spy mission without being detected once.
  • Defeat Kela de Thaym without getting downed.
  • Complete a capture mission in less than a minute.
  • Reach 10k K-drive points without breaking the score.
  • Complete a level 50+ mission with all 4 debuff keys equipped and without using Warframe abilities.
  • Solo a hard boss fight.
  • Complete this or that mission with no mods equipped.

I also point you to this thread, where other players list potential challenges in the same vein as I do.

The emphasis here, of course, is on short tasks that require player dexterity, timing, and the like. It demands effort as opposed to patience and does consume an entire day of consecutive gameplay to fulfill. Another way to put it is, instead of diverting a player's attention from what they want to focus on (go play spy even though you wanted to play survival) Nightwave should layer additional gameplay enhancement on top of pre-existing focus. For example, say you were focusing on a survival mission. Well now you have a new goal in said survival mission - hone your skills by wall-latching, wall-running, aim-gliding, etc... DE, demand the players to make use of your intricate mobility system! What's the point of aim-gliding if we're not asked to use it? Why even create wall-latching if there's no point behind it? You get the idea.

This, in my opinion, is what Nightwave challenge should look like.

So you want a kind of rivens unveiling without the benefits ...
This is was also mentioned as being on the very reasons by some what these challenges weren't challenges and if so would be the same as the rivens. There is a thin line between them. One I personally wish to not be crossed. But then again, this is me ofc.

(to the highlighted ones)
But I like the idea of using skill, timing, dexterity and the like. But outside of the many things that happen in the game, it is not always solid on the consistency to pull this off accurately. 
 

Edited by (PS4)Elloshin
reason

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3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It is a problem, but I don't think "catering to hardcore" or "catering to casual" is really the problem. Warframe does neither, and should be doing both. The problem is, when they make "hard" content, it's not really challenging, it's just annoying. Exploiter was a S#&$ty fight, so was profit taker, so was eidolons. The game doesn't give you enough control or feedback over yourself to go head to head with a massive damage tank of a boss, but they keep trying to force this kind of content in. The reason people don't like it isn't because "oh it's those baby noob casuals at it again", it's because it's novel the first time and then sucks every time thereafter.

in order to provide challenging content, WF needs to either get a proper defensive game going, either through map design or timed guard/roll invulnerability, and bosses built around that, or cater to the game's strengths, with fast-paced reflex-driven fights like Corrupted Vor or the Hyena Pack. The current "we don't want to effort the map design" and "fast/precise bosses are too hard for controllers" just isn't cutting it, and I don't see the personal defensive game changing enough to allow sweeping bosses with no cover to be any kind of fun or fair. Especially since the boss attacks don't even have any kind of clarity to the hurtbox, direction, or even existence in many cases.

Hydrolist is basically "oh look, random damage everywhere! having fun yet?!". Just plain obnoxious, without providing any real meat to sink into and git gud. As broken and sad as PSO2 is as a game, thanks to it's content pacing, it perfectly illustrates how inadequate Warframe's bosses are, both with it's successes and it's failures. The best bosses can be followed, attack from their center in a clear motion, and provide you with the information you need to either block or dodge without taking any damage. They don't necessarily make that easy, especially if you want to actually get a hit in, and you do need to get your damage in if you want the boss to ever die, but you never have to take damage to do so, even if it can get very hectic and hard to avoid. Warframe, on the other hand, has plenty of unavoidable damage coming from places you can't see, much of which incapacitates the player, taking control away.

 

The TL:DR of it is that hard content should make even noobs want to do better, by giving clear and fair rules and tools. Warframe has failed to do that with any new boss and most new content in general for years, regardless of the difficulty level.

This is on a separate post because much of what you said is 100% valid. Unfortunately it's got nothing to do with nightwave. 

I honestly suggest that you repost it as a separate thread and include how you think that they would be able to fix the problems. 

Also remember that by definition stuff stops being novel after the first time you encounter it. A big part of the problem with the content going stale is that as a community we generally share our knowledge, with only a few examples of story related things that we try to keep under wraps and not spoil. So just like millions of monkeys hammering away at keyboards we tend to be able to produce the most improbable solutions to the puzzles of the new content in very short order. And then the information is relayed to every single person along with crib notes for the meta builds and tactics on day 1.

It's going to be really tough to combat that. 

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

I have stated as much several times.  It is an improvement overall, but that doesn't mean that there aren't significant issues within the system.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It’s an interesting proposal but it would probably be really difficult to implement it from scratch in a reasonable amount of time. Also if I'm honest I haven't really bothered to unlock many rivens, particularly the ones that took me away from just playing the game. I generally saw them as just chores that had nothing to do with the game. 

Ironically it seems to me, as though many people who dislike the current system, seem to be upset that it's asking them to play the game. 

 So... Nightwave is giving you something to do in the game, that you don't really have otherwise?

Oh but we're free to skip it in the exact same way that we were to skip the alerts. The only consequence is that we won't get the rewards that we have not earned which you have to admit is perfectly fair. That's exactly what happened every time you skipped an alert. That's been explained to you, many times in this thread. Perhaps you just ignored it the way you did with all those alerts? 

Since you answered it, linking to the post or quoting it will be very easy to do. I'm sure you will find where you specified what in game activities you enjoy and are not "chores". (Which means that you didn't just say "I enjoy doing things that aren't the things that I decide are 'chores'".) 

It’s not even a tough question, so I'm sure it's easy to find the answer you gave or to just toss out a few examples. 

Yes incredible, because it's false. If that were remotely close to the truth then one of you would have simply just reported that long ago. Of course falsely accusing someone who is disagreeing in a civil and rational way, of trolling, etc., etc. is in itself a very toxic act. Might want to think about that. 

There's a reason why I quote what I am replying to, and give links to the previous posts I am referring to. I don't just claim that I have answered something, I show it. I've done the math repeatedly, and will probably do so again if there's a reason, or at least quote an earlier post with the information. I'm providing the evidence and my take on it, and invite people to disagree if they are able to do the same. 

Since they're claiming that they answered the simple question, but refusing to just quote it, that ought to suggest something to you. If you want to you can help them out by finding the answer you seem to believe that they gave, I'd be grateful to you. 

The question was what specific activities they enjoy. Remember, "Feedback is not just about saying what you dislike : it's also about suggesting improvements." So far they haven't shown what they enjoy, and the improvements they seem to have suggested seem to be contradictory with the rest of their posts. It's all been negatives, which is fine, but many of the claims that have been made by them, are blatantly false as has been shown repeatedly. Like the one above about not being free to skip the Nightwave the same way they skipped the majority of the alerts. 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

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1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

Well then it looks like you've made a choice that you do want the rewards, so you are willing to do what it takes to get the rewards. That's nowhere near the same thing as being forced to do something.

It's the same choice that many of us made. Others chose to just skip the event because they didn't want the rewards, or perhaps because they want to not do the challenges more than they want the rewards. And again, that's fine. 

Regarding your claim to have answered to the question of what content we have that you actually enjoy, if that were remotely true, you would have been able to quote or link to it. I believe that as you've done so many times on this thread, you're making claims that are just patently false. Care to prove me wrong for a change? 

 

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2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I have stated as much several times.  It is an improvement overall, but that doesn't mean that there aren't significant issues within the system.

Agreed, and as a first iteration, there is definitely room for improvement. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Elloshin said:

Not really, but the fear that it would be like this, was there along. (It is within the cries of the community, so much that they have made a is still going on with this many pages) But what ever. I am here for it to be better. But if it won't, I won't bother with it much, unto to the following seasons forward. I have mentioned in my first post here that I wouldn't say much about the content but more on how De would bring it out (or execution) before the second season hits, since this is the defining moment of the system before it becomes something that we, as players, can't voice much over with power without it being a group thing before changes can and will be implied. As the voice of many will only be the thing they will be listening to by then. 

De has not made it any better and has implemented several of rehashes into the first season. Something which, I, personally, find lacking. Because it does shows that either they had nothing to begin with or did not find their original ideas worthy of us as players. I know that they like to tailor the experience around players, but that is also what everything around us do. And they are failing miserably, to capture the attention of the majority. Because of the fatigue of the promise of the perfect world / experience. Personally I deny everything that does this, and take several steps back whenever I feel like something I touch and wish to experience new and rough as it were, presenting me with this perfect thing of how I like it, without me telling it do so or even giving a hint of wanting / experience to do so.

I also do understand that these were probably one of the few, where the feedback was the least negative in comparison to the first or some before. However, I still do believe that they should have gone with their original intent and release all weeks with the original challenges that they had in mind and changes it only after the second season,while implementing changes to other things around the core concept only. Like the episodes and wolf credits rewards and the Nightwave rep outside the Nightwave challenges. Or something like how Nightwave is able to take over like that, you know story and lore stuff. But with real impact into the world of Warframe. But it didn't, like all other empty syndicates. 

And we're here ...
In this moment, at this heap that has a high probability to get better within time oR get revamped into another thing that might be somewhat better because we'll have to live with it and will not be revisited for sometime. Looking at you, nyx and vauban  Or degenerated to oblivion. ember and mirage

 

So you want a kind of rivens unveiling without the benefits ...
This is was also mentioned as being on the very reasons by some what these challenges weren't challenges and if so would be the same as the rivens. There is a thin line between them. One I personally wish to not be crossed. But then again, this is me ofc.

(to the highlighted ones)
But I like the idea of using skill, timing, dexterity and the like. But outside of the many things that happen in the game, it is not always solid on the consistency to pull this off accurately. 
 

I should have clarified. I think these challenges should be accumulative as opposed to consequent. Meaning, the moment you, say headshot once from aim-glide, it fills the gauge even if you fall down. Sounds better?

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1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No we aren't, because then you miss out on standing, which means missing out on actual rewards. If the rewards for nightwave were as irrelevant as alert rewards, this wouldn't be a problem.

I've answered multiple times, and I'm not going to bother doing it another 100 times just so you can ignore it another 100 times for your own convenience. I have better things to do with my time.

Alert Rewards vs (Nightwave Rewards):

  • Cosmetic Weapon Skins (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Alternate Helment Blueprints (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Forma Blueprint (Improved: Forma Bundles)
  • Auras (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Void Relics (Not Available)
  • Vauban Components (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Any Resources (Not Available)
  • 1 Kubrow Egg (Not Available)
  • 5 Kavat Genetic Code (Not Available)
  • 5 Synthula (Not Available)
  • 80, 100, 150 Endo (Not Available)
  • 20 Void Traces (Not Available)

So categorizing based on what I can assume by comparing the two: 

  • Levels 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 13, 17, 21, 23, 26,  28, and 30 (12 levels) are cosmetic items.  Seeing as helmets and weapon skins are also irrelevant, I assume these don't matter.  Even if they did, they are season-specific cosmetics, so complaining about having to work for them is laughable at best.
  • Levels 3, 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, 20, 24, 27, and all levels past 30 (9 levels) are items gained from alerts or the currency to get them.  Also irrelevant.
  • Levels 14, 18, and 22 (3 levels) give weapon augments.  Seeing as these are mods just like auras, I will assume these are irrelevant as well.
  • Levels 4 and 8 (2 levels) give 2 weapon slot and a warframe slot.
  • Levels 15 and 19 (2 levels) give 20,000 Kuva.  This is a farmable resource.
  • Level 25 gives an Arcane Energize.  This is a farmable item.
  • Level 29 gives an Umbra Forma.

Ultimately, the only rewards worth mentioning from Nightwave when compared with alert is a measely two weapon slots and warframe slot, easily obtainable by running a few relics and selling some prime parts, and the umbra forma, an item that is meant to be incredibly hard to obtain and limited in availability.  In fact, the loss of alerts has cost us more rewards.  Ultimately sounds to me like people just want their new-meta Umbra Forma.

Please feel free to tell me what assumptions I made were too strong and the justification for including them as "relevant."

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4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well then it looks like you've made a choice that you do want the rewards, so you are willing to do what it takes to get the rewards. That's nowhere near the same thing as being forced to do something.

It's the same choice that many of us made. Others chose to just skip the event because they didn't want the rewards, or perhaps because they want to not do the challenges more than they want the rewards. And again, that's fine. 

Regarding your claim to have answered to the question of what content we have that you actually enjoy, if that were remotely true, you would have been able to quote or link to it. I believe that as you've done so many times on this thread, you're making claims that are just patently false. Care to prove me wrong for a change? 

 

Within the context of playing the game, it is; those rewards are very compelling, and missing out means limiting your arsenal. The choice essentially comes down to "play endgame, or quit endgame", and in a game about getting to and playing endgame, that's not too different from "play game or quit game".

I've repeated my answer several times and it was ignored in each case. I'm obviously not going to waste more time doing it again and again so you can keep whining that I didn't do the thing I did, and then pretend my not doing it again and again is somehow wrong.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well then it looks like you've made a choice that you do want the rewards, so you are willing to do what it takes to get the rewards. That's nowhere near the same thing as being forced to do something.

Wrong. If I can't play WF for a week or two 'cause of my real life job, well, that's not a choice. And I lost my nightwave acts. So...no, no choice in there.

Edited by (PS4)nating51
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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, pittaxx said:

I'm a bit surprised that no one is noting that the "plains bounties" Nightwave challenge clearly does not work as intended.

If it was "bounty stages" it would be in line with the other "finish 3 missions" challenges, as it would take similar amount of time and give the same 3000 standing reward. However, we get 8 "bounties" instead, which forces us to do the easiest bounties that give no challenge or rewards to finish it in 50! minutes (2 min average * 3 * 8 + some overhead).

If we want to do the max level bounty (so we actually get something from it), we are punished by needing to spend double of that time on the plains (5 stages instead of 3 and longer average time because you need to kill significantly more stuff). That's just not ok.

It was noted in another thread. I said the same as you have here.

Edited by (XB1)Tatakai no Kami
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11 hours ago, random__noob said:

Not quite true really. Shamelessly quoting myself here:

 

QUOTE: Food for thought: There is a quest system implemented into the game that doesnt try to bore us to death by saying "Do 10 nightmare missions, even though you by now have everything they are good for and it is just plain annoying when we make EVERY nightmare mission have Energy Drain Modifier"

Give us Riven-Like quest cards instead of this endurance test, stuff like "Kill 10 enemies (while wall running) (and while you only have a melee weapon equipped) (and while undetected). The higher your mastery, the more of these modifiers are added. Then allow us to reroll these quests by spending Nano Spores, Gallium and Alloy Plates if we think they suck. The more you played the game, the less patience and use you will have for stuff like the suggested 10 nightmare missions or 4 Vault runs. You think I enjoy stuffing another Overextended into my collection? Especially now since so many people were forced to do Vault runs, now EVERYBODY has them and they are absolutely useless?

Give us a combination-challenge system that we can reroll if we feel its ridiculous. Make the Quest difficulty depend on the mastery. If you think it is too hard, you can reroll the quest by using resources with ONE recepie keeping the mastery difficulty the same, one leveling the difficulty up and one leveling the difficulty down. Please use resources we HAVE for being patient with the game for many years, not resources you think are fancy and we think are garbage, like Arbitration Essence (its garbage and you know it)

So you're proposing that because I am MR26 I would have literally impossible to complete challenges for the same standing that an MR2 has a basic challenge for? No.

And having people burn their resources to reroll? No.
 

My original comment still stands.

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16 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It does tell you not to play, when you finish your daily/weekly chores. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

I skipped the vast majority of alerts because they were inconsequential, and therefore made no significant impact, unlike nightwave. As I already explained, and as you continue to ignore for your convenience.

I have completed all the activities a couple of times, and have never once been told not to play. There still are other things outside of Nightwave for you to do. If Nightwave did not exist what would you be doing? Clearly, you found things to do as you have 6 levels from Fugitives.

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2 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Alert Rewards vs (Nightwave Rewards):

  • Cosmetic Weapon Skins (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Alternate Helment Blueprints (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Forma Blueprint (Improved: Forma Bundles)
  • Auras (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Void Relics (Not Available)
  • Vauban Components (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Any Resources (Not Available)
  • 1 Kubrow Egg (Not Available)
  • 5 Kavat Genetic Code (Not Available)
  • 5 Synthula (Not Available)
  • 80, 100, 150 Endo (Not Available)
  • 20 Void Traces (Not Available)

So categorizing based on what I can assume by comparing the two: 

  • Levels 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 13, 17, 21, 23, 26,  28, and 30 (12 levels) are cosmetic items.  Seeing as helmets and weapon skins are also irrelevant, I assume these don't matter.  Even if they did, they are season-specific cosmetics, so complaining about having to work for them is laughable at best.
  • Levels 3, 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, 20, 24, 27, and all levels past 30 (9 levels) are items gained from alerts or the currency to get them.  Also irrelevant.
  • Levels 14, 18, and 22 (3 levels) give weapon augments.  Seeing as these are mods just like auras, I will assume these are irrelevant as well.
  • Levels 4 and 8 (2 levels) give 2 weapon slot and a warframe slot.
  • Levels 15 and 19 (2 levels) give 20,000 Kuva.  This is a farmable resource.
  • Level 25 gives an Arcane Energize.  This is a farmable item.
  • Level 29 gives an Umbra Forma.

Ultimately, the only rewards worth mentioning from Nightwave when compared with alert is a measely two weapon slots and warframe slot, easily obtainable by running a few relics and selling some prime parts, and the umbra forma, an item that is meant to be incredibly hard to obtain and limited in availability.  In fact, the loss of alerts has cost us more rewards.  Ultimately sounds to me like people just want their new-meta Umbra Forma.

Please feel free to tell me what assumptions I made were too strong and the justification for including them as "relevant."

Auras are only irrelevant when you obtain them once, but since they come up commonly and have cheap value, they were easy to obtain with or without alerts.

Weapon augments are a pretty big deal. The Penta augment substantially changes how the weapon plays, and makes it cover a different role. Very essential, and until Nightwave, it didn't exist. The only way to obtain it is via Nightwave linear ladder. If the augments dropped elsewhere, they wouldn't be relevant to Nightwave.

And yes, Umbra forma is a pretty big deal.

That means that 3 mods and Umbra Forma are things that you can't afford to miss if you want to have all the options available to you, with the last of which, and also the hardest to obtain of which, being potentially game breaking. Umbra mods are counterbalanced by their high drain and lack of matching polarity outside of one frame. If you're able to stick both Umbral Vitality and Umbral Steel Fiber, or the weapon Umbral mods, all in one place, the set bonus further carries these mods into the extremely high tier. Essentially, Umbral Forma is like restricting a Primed mod for a meta base-mod to rank 29 of Nightwave.

Also, we can remove Orokin Catalyst and Orokin Reactor from the Alert rewards list, since they had such a low chance to show up in Alerts outside of the very regular Gift From The Lotus alerts, which were 24h alerts, I believe almost exclusively on weekends? that required very little effort from the player. They also drop more commonly in invasions, which tend to also last a while.

That leaves

  • Forma BPs, which drop more commonly from void fissures, can be farmed complete from (infrequent) repeating events, and show up in Invasions for good measure
  • Auras, which only need to be obtained once, and are now rarer within the community than before on the new system; not opposed to this change however, as it's easy to target and farm the aura you need
  • Void Relics, which are far more easily obtained anywhere and everywhere else
  • Vauban components, which only need to be obtained once; new source for them is fine here too
  • Weapon Blueprints, which only need to be obtained once; are those in the cred shop? they seem kinda S#&$e for the cred shop. should probably be in reg shop or dojo
  • Cosmetics, which only need to be obtained once if ever
  • Resources, lol resources
  • Kubrow egg, drops more commonly on Ars
  • Kavat Genetic Code, RIP will be missed, hope this makes it into the cred shop but you can cheeze it by scanning other players' kavats and it was pretty rare from alerts
  • Synthula, good riddance to bad rubbish
  • Endo, more common everywhere else
  • Void Traces, more common in Void Fissures, which also drop forma
  • Nightmare mods, not a big deal most of the time, but it was nice when a new nightmare mod popped up in an alert soon after release, normalizing it's value quickly.

As you can see, alerts never had anything relevant after the first while of playing, and most of the relevant stuff was common enough it'd eventually pop up while you're playing something else anyway, and could be quickly completed, usually with whatever squad you're with, even in pubs, taking some 1~10 minutes, and probably averaging closer to 3. Once you did an alert for that thing one time, you never needed to care about that alert drop ever again.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

I have completed all the activities a couple of times, and have never once been told not to play. There still are other things outside of Nightwave for you to do. If Nightwave did not exist what would you be doing? Clearly, you found things to do as you have 6 levels from Fugitives.

The event, which most people agree was pretty bland and tasteless topped with an obnoxious boss fight that makes no sense half the time.

Also, I'd probably be farming to get weapons and warframes instead of feeling obligated to not play because no progress can be made in Nightwave until next week, making everything else less enjoyable. This kind of content pacing lends it's self to that, psychologically. And for people who don't have other things to do, they would likely be playing casually when they feel like, rather than logging in to get their chores done and then logging out to do anything else.

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19 hours ago, Cirrus said:

 

Separate the casual challenges of the elite challenges.
What I mean by this . That you can get to the end of the nightwave rewards by doing only the casual challenges ... but if you want to boost your points and go to the end of the rewards faster you can do elite challenges.

 

This saves a problem, from people complaining about "long missions, I do not have friends etc".If you put that type of missions right there on elite


 

This is already possible. This has been explained in this thread several times. The first free half week had 7 Basic activities, and 4 daily. for 25k. Each subsequent week has 7 dailies and 7 basic weekly for 28k that adds up to 305k Standing without fugitives.

See @NezuHimeSama this is another person not understanding Nightwave, and not doing the maths. Which the majority of the complaints are.

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I did the maths just fine, and I've already explained why that's not really how things work.

Forced content pacing is always bad news.

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16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If what you are saying were true we'd only need to do a single mobile defense mission as each has 3 stages. 

And we have a week to finish the 8 bounties. There's nothing forcing any of us to choose the lowest level. Many of the people choosing it are making an informed choice to do that. Others are lower levels who have trouble doing the harder content. If you want the better rewards do the higher level bounties. 

Oh and try blasting the ships in the air before they drop off the passengers. That way you kill more stuff faster and have less mopping up of scattered enemies to do. 

Nah, this is pretty true 3 of each type or normal mission vs 8 bounties which have at least 3 stages, Unless Teralyst Hunts count. Each bounty stage often has multiple parts as well.

If the Bounties was in fact bounty stages then this would equate to 3 of the lowest level Bounties or 2 of the mid to higher level bounties. In a way the 8 bounties mission equates to 8 times the requirements of the 3x normal mission activities with the same reward.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It’s an interesting proposal but it would probably be really difficult to implement it from scratch in a reasonable amount of time. Also if I'm honest I haven't really bothered to unlock many rivens, particularly the ones that took me away from just playing the game. I generally saw them as just chores that had nothing to do with the game. 

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Shhh! Don't say that next week will be "unlock 3 rivens for 5k," and I've only got one I haven't unlocked yet. I like the rivens, they often force me to play a warframe I hardly use. 

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3 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Alert Rewards vs (Nightwave Rewards):

  • Cosmetic Weapon Skins (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Alternate Helment Blueprints (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Orokin Catalyst Blueprint (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Forma Blueprint (Improved: Forma Bundles)
  • Auras (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Void Relics (Not Available)
  • Vauban Components (Accounted For: Wolf Creds Shop)
  • Any Resources (Not Available)
  • 1 Kubrow Egg (Not Available)
  • 5 Kavat Genetic Code (Not Available)
  • 5 Synthula (Not Available)
  • 80, 100, 150 Endo (Not Available)
  • 20 Void Traces (Not Available)

So categorizing based on what I can assume by comparing the two: 

  • Levels 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 13, 17, 21, 23, 26,  28, and 30 (12 levels) are cosmetic items.  Seeing as helmets and weapon skins are also irrelevant, I assume these don't matter.  Even if they did, they are season-specific cosmetics, so complaining about having to work for them is laughable at best.
  • Levels 3, 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, 20, 24, 27, and all levels past 30 (9 levels) are items gained from alerts or the currency to get them.  Also irrelevant.
  • Levels 14, 18, and 22 (3 levels) give weapon augments.  Seeing as these are mods just like auras, I will assume these are irrelevant as well.
  • Levels 4 and 8 (2 levels) give 2 weapon slot and a warframe slot.
  • Levels 15 and 19 (2 levels) give 20,000 Kuva.  This is a farmable resource.
  • Level 25 gives an Arcane Energize.  This is a farmable item.
  • Level 29 gives an Umbra Forma.

Ultimately, the only rewards worth mentioning from Nightwave when compared with alert is a measely two weapon slots and warframe slot, easily obtainable by running a few relics and selling some prime parts, and the umbra forma, an item that is meant to be incredibly hard to obtain and limited in availability.  In fact, the loss of alerts has cost us more rewards.  Ultimately sounds to me like people just want their new-meta Umbra Forma.

Please feel free to tell me what assumptions I made were too strong and the justification for including them as "relevant."

Given Arcane Energize sells for 300plat I'd say it is of some consequence. it is farmable, but unless RNGesus is your personal Saviour and friend, it will be a long farm to get 10.

All of the resources are easily farmable on planets. the endo ones were good for low-level players, but I personally never did them, Nor with the void traces. I'd get more void traces from doing fissures and unlock relics. I think the reason Endo is not in there is the potential for abuse. they wouldn't want to make them too expensive for the new players, but also being too cheap means people could purchase multiple of them. I think they would need to implement a store limit of 1 per week if they put them in the store. Synthula too might need a weekly store cap.

The only one that should definitely be in the store rotation is Kavat Genetic codes. And while I think Kubrow eggs are easy to farm. I guess they should be in there too. Of course, If they were, I'd be spending all my leftover wolf creds on them for that day when DE finally lets me decorate my Dojo with them.

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2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Within the context of playing the game, it is; those rewards are very compelling, and missing out means limiting your arsenal. The choice essentially comes down to "play endgame, or quit endgame", and in a game about getting to and playing endgame, that's not too different from "play game or quit game".

Nonsense. Wolf armour is not going to help you beat the Eidolons or the Profit Taker is it? And since we already have people killing the tridolons multiple times in a night (sometimes solo), complaining that arbitrations are a snooze fest etc, it's clear that we don't need the umbral forma to tackle endgame content. 

The fact is that you want those rewards. You want them so badly that you are willing to do the challenges you claim to find so distasteful. You want them so much, that you seem to be attempting every single challenge you claim to hate so much, skipping nothing, and then you stop playing if there aren't any more challenges to do in the week, or so you claimed. You want them so badly that you have probably successfully completed multiple endgame activities without the benefits of what you are trying to claim are needed to do the endgame activities. 

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I've repeated my answer several times and it was ignored in each case. I'm obviously not going to waste more time doing it again and again so you can keep whining that I didn't do the thing I did, and then pretend my not doing it again and again is somehow wrong.

At this point it looks like you're going to have to buy a whole heap of new pants, because you have been burning the ones you had on regularly throughout the thread. 

If you had done it, you could have quoted it and proved me wrong long ago. You can't, because you didn't. Shame on you for telling such transparent lies. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Wrong. If I can't play WF for a week or two 'cause of my real life job, well, that's not a choice. And I lost my nightwave acts. So...no, no choice in there.

Not sure what that has to do with the part you quoted, but I'll still do the math for you:

2 weeks = 86k.

You would have a possible 344k from the other 8 weeks (384 if you count the first part week), of which you need 300k to hit max rank. And that's before we factor in the convicts. So...no, all is not necessarily lost because of 2 missed weeks. (In fact the person I wrote that to will most likely be able to skip the last few weeks of the event if they don't try to max out the creds in the prestige ranks if what they said about their progress so far, is correct.) 

Hope it helps, Tenno. 👍

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That means that 3 mods and Umbra Forma are things that you can't afford to miss if you want to have all the options available to you, with the last of which, and also the hardest to obtain of which, being potentially game breaking.

Emphasis added. The first because it shows that you recognise the we do have a choice in the matter, and the second because I think that you should have said "even more" in there. We don't currently need the umbral forma to break the game. And if your primary goal is to break the game even more, I'm wondering how much less you're going to enjoy it after you do. So far on this thread, you've described a dislike of most aspects of the game, and struggled to provide any answer to a simple question about what parts of the game are enjoyable to you (or that can also be read as 'struggled to repeatedly falsely claim that you have provided an answer', your choice). 

How much worse is this whole thing going to be when you figure out how to use that one umbral forma to break the game even more? 

2 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Once you did an alert for that thing one time, you never needed to care about that alert drop ever again.

This is true, and that's a part of what they seem to be trying to fix. What you just advocated for is a system that allowed you to not play the game. I'm sure you can figure out how a game mechanic that encouraged you to not play it, doesn't work well from any point of view. The current system seems to have encouraged you to play quite a bit for the last several weeks, and most likely to play parts of the game that you would have rarely touched before, by offering you an incentive that you seem to want quite a bit. 

See how that's worked out for the best? 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nonsense. Wolf armour is not going to help you beat the Eidolons or the Profit Taker is it? And since we already have people killing the tridolons multiple times in a night (sometimes solo), complaining that arbitrations are a snooze fest etc, it's clear that we don't need the umbral forma to tackle endgame content. 

The fact is that you want those rewards. You want them so badly that you are willing to do the challenges you claim to find so distasteful. You want them so much, that you seem to be attempting every single challenge you claim to hate so much, skipping nothing, and then you stop playing if there aren't any more challenges to do in the week, or so you claimed. You want them so badly that you have probably successfully completed multiple endgame activities without the benefits of what you are trying to claim are needed to do the endgame activities. 

At this point it looks like you're going to have to buy a whole heap of new pants, because you have been burning the ones you had on regularly throughout the thread. 

If you had done it, you could have quoted it and proved me wrong long ago. You can't, because you didn't. Shame on you for telling such transparent lies. 

Not sure what that has to do with the part you quoted, but I'll still do the math for you:

2 weeks = 86k.

You would have a possible 344k from the other 8 weeks (384 if you count the first part week), of which you need 300k to hit max rank. And that's before we factor in the convicts. So...no, all is not necessarily lost because of 2 missed weeks. (In fact the person I wrote that to will most likely be able to skip the last few weeks of the event if they don't try to max out the creds in the prestige ranks if what they said about their progress so far, is correct.) 

Hope it helps, Tenno. 👍

Emphasis added. The first because it shows that you recognise the we do have a choice in the matter, and the second because I think that you should have said "even more" in there. We don't currently need the umbral forma to break the game. And if your primary goal is to break the game even more, I'm wondering how much less you're going to enjoy it after you do. So far on this thread, you've described a dislike of most aspects of the game, and struggled to provide any answer to a simple question about what parts of the game are enjoyable to you (or that can also be read as 'struggled to repeatedly falsely claim that you have provided an answer', your choice). 

How much worse is this whole thing going to be when you figure out how to use that one umbral forma to break the game even more? 

This is true, and that's a part of what they seem to be trying to fix. What you just advocated for is a system that allowed you to not play the game. I'm sure you can figure out how a game mechanic that encouraged you to not play it, doesn't work well from any point of view. The current system seems to have encouraged you to play quite a bit for the last several weeks, and most likely to play parts of the game that you would have rarely touched before, by offering you an incentive that you seem to want quite a bit. 

See how that's worked out for the best? 

Considering you haven't acknowledge anything I've said, and repeatedly denied the existence of said things, should I even bother reading this wall of text? After all, that's not a courtesy you're willing to show.

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