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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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8 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I don't wanna come off as too pissed off about this, although I am.

>Fully socket 3 ayatan sculptures

For the love of all that's holy above and below DE, we told you this was horrible when it happened earlier, WHY IS IT BACK?!

EDIT: I've been told that apparently it's FIVE on console. So you modified it PC-side, but you didn't REPLACE IT when this was the most hated challenge? You replaced one before that was entirely doable, and you leave THIS IN?

EDIT 2: Oh, and "Polarize 3 things" is back again too. Because we didn't complain about THAT one hard enough either apparently.

I can't say I'm not disappointed. I thought they had listened to us. Since other task repeated two weeks in a row.

Also, it's 5 Ayatan Sculptures, isn't it?

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Also, it's 5 Ayatan Sculptures, isn't it?

On consoles it’s 5. PC only 3. 

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2 hours ago, (NSW)NeonNebula said:

Honestly DE, what’s the use of this feedback thread if you’re not going to listen to the feedback? 

 

The irony is that they might not even read this comment.

I've read pretty much the entire thread. Don't remember there being any replies from DE-staff beyond the first post. Certainly none for tens and tens of pages. Also zero moderation despite trolling that's gone on for 30+ pages.

are you there anybody GIF by Jack Stauber

 

In the future, would be nice to know beforehand when the feedback is processed.

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I'm seeing a lot of people frustrated that DE hasn't listened to the feedback/haven't made any changes over similar issues. Here's an explanation why we're going to see our feedback come into play in series 2, and not the current series:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/aygl2h/just_incase_people_missed_it_de_are_unable_to/

But srsly tho stop these inventory checks huhu

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11 hours ago, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

NW transfers the proverbial "blame" onto the players direct effort & not the system or the developers, you've heard their explanations as well as I, "only need so much to get everything, so you have no excuse not to get that except being a lazy player now right"

Thats not right shifting responsibility like that, thats what they do with exercise stuff, weight loss & pyramid schemes, they sell people on a system that the only reason you fail is because you didnt "Invest yourself enough in the product" "not our fault!, "we gave you everything you need to accomplish your goal" meanwhile they still have your money & have no shortage of people filling their wallets in the hope that this system will work & make things better for them.

Then again i can easily accept that I'm reading more into this than is there, but thats just how this is starting to feel, like I'm going to be punished & denied because what I play this game for "entertainment" can cause me to lose out on essential materials, or interesting items & so forth, simply because I dont feel the effort to garner my desired reward is worth the aggervation, because to do otherwise would be no different than getting called into work on your day off, but this is your entertainment doing this to you.

Really good points in there. -To me this is a realistic and detailed explanation of how *a lot* of WF players feel atm with nightwave...

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The game should have alerts and nightwave.

Would like to get back the alerts with credits and ressources as rewards (still waiting for a better way to earn mutagen samples).

Nightwave should be a selectable series with a huge list of different acts, were you can pick a few as currently active.
Maybe with a limit for acts per week as a little slow down.
Every player should be able to manage the current series and active acts when they want to play the content.

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3 minutes ago, gabuchan said:

I'm seeing a lot of people frustrated that DE hasn't listened to the feedback/haven't made any changes over similar issues. Here's an explanation why we're going to see our feedback come into play in series 2, and not the current series:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/aygl2h/just_incase_people_missed_it_de_are_unable_to/

But srsly tho stop these inventory checks huhu

 

The strange thing about that is, they've already made changes. For example, the "Do 40 waves of defense" was changed into another challenge. Neither are the challenges same across all platforms. For example, PC has "Fully socket 3 Ayatans", while console(s) have "Fully socket 5 Ayatans".

So being unable to make changes because "Nightwave has to be the same across all platforms" doesn't seem true.

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2 minutes ago, Enialyx said:

 

The strange thing about that is, they've already made changes. For example, the "Do 40 waves of defense" was changed into another challenge. Neither are the challenges same across all platforms. For example, PC has "Fully socket 3 Ayatans", while console(s) have "Fully socket 5 Ayatans".

So being unable to make changes because "Nightwave has to be the same across all platforms" doesn't seem true.

Here's a comment from another reddit thread made when the 40 defense wave challenge was swapped to the kill 100 eximus challenge:

"ITT: People losing their minds over the "DE can't change challenges mid-season".

Let's not jump on a hate bandwagon too quickly here folks. Nightwave is synced across all platforms.

Changing how a challenge works is probably an extensive programming task. Hence it would need to go through the cert process for consoles even if PC has to wait for it.

Changing which challenge is active in the current rotation is probably just a database entry swap out. You could probably google "how to SQL" and do this change easily yourself within a couple of hours, granted you have access to DE's related data storage."

 

Sadly this is an issue because of how they wanted Nightwave's release to be simultaneous with consoles

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Ok as for why they haven't cycled out the garbage challenges that are outright infuriating because they can't change the code & so forth in the middle of it & so forth.

Wholly reasonable, hate to admit it, but one of the primary reasons they made this trade off was to streamline A system that could operate more autonomously & with less oversight than the Alerts system, as such this would indeed be in my eyes an acceptable circumstance to give DE a little leeway on these challenges as the set it & forget it model would open up more seats for development, debugging or whatever the poor slobs who had to deal with the alerts system get to do now instead.

But the lack of direct information, feedback, or even speaking about the communities furor over the current changes does them an intense disservice & leaves it up to us as individuals to determine reason for remaining silent.

For example I just found out today that Switch had the exploiter orb fight for the second part of the thermia event, I had no clue, but 10 days later, someone asked WTF HAPPENED!? lo and behold, a single post on some obscure section of some forum details what happened over the weekend of the 26th, no message in game notes that i saw, no one on switch was even asking about it or talking about exploiter orb, its Nightflush/wave, Plat begging, help & carry requests & things involving other things of such a random horrid nature that id hazard to bet some portion of time & space somewhere has warped beyond repair.

Again this is not painting a good picture for anyone no matter what side of the fence your on, actions speak louder than words, but what happens in silence?

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Also sorry for an extra post, as for why they cant change consoles, simply put, its whatever contract they have drawn up between the 3 manufacturers regarding update times, bandwidth allocation on say Xboxs dedicated servers having to allocate bandwidth & ensure each consoles various bugs are ironed out.

On PC they have free reign to do what they want when they want & Steam runs giddy to the bank every major update.

They will have NO such excuse come round 2 of this new system & that is where I fear the hammer will drop hardest.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

Ok as for why they haven't cycled out the garbage challenges that are outright infuriating because they can't change the code & so forth in the middle of it & so forth.

Wholly reasonable, hate to admit it, but one of the primary reasons they made this trade off was to streamline A system that could operate more autonomously & with less oversight than the Alerts system, as such this would indeed be in my eyes an acceptable circumstance to give DE a little leeway on these challenges as the set it & forget it model would open up more seats for development, debugging or whatever the poor slobs who had to deal with the alerts system get to do now instead.

But the lack of direct information, feedback, or even speaking about the communities furor over the current changes does them an intense disservice & leaves it up to us as individuals to determine reason for remaining silent.

For example I just found out today that Switch had the exploiter orb fight for the second part of the thermia event, I had no clue, but 10 days later, someone asked WTF HAPPENED!? lo and behold, a single post on some obscure section of some forum details what happened over the weekend of the 26th, no message in game notes that i saw, no one on switch was even asking about it or talking about exploiter orb, its Nightflush/wave, Plat begging, help & carry requests & things involving other things of such a random horrid nature that id hazard to bet some portion of time & space somewhere has warped beyond repair.

Again this is not painting a good picture for anyone no matter what side of the fence your on, actions speak louder than words, but what happens in silence?

6

I saw the announcement that Consoles had the Exploiter fight. And isn't it always there as long as you have thermia?

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Really!? I'll have to check when i get back, if thats the case then neat! Still never heard anything on the usual systems they drop this info on ala the in game mail system or that little ticker that tells ya devstreams times & such.

If I glossed over it then thatd be all on me, but far as I knew second part got no official announcement through those channels, so again ill have to check when I get the chance to.

Thank ya much!

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Just now, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

Really!? I'll have to check when i get back, if thats the case then neat! Still never heard anything on the usual systems they drop this info on ala the in game mail system or that little ticker that tells ya devstreams times & such.

If I glossed over it then thatd be all on me, but far as I knew second part got no official announcement through those channels, so again ill have to check when I get the chance to.

Thank ya much!

I haven't done the exploiter fight yet, no interest, But I heard it was always there you just need thermia to beat it. I think the Thermia is supposed to a common recurring event like the annoying ghouls.
 

I saw the announcements multiple times on facebook and on twitter.
 

You have to have scanned the required items in the Orb Vallis to gain access though.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)Earth Nuggets said:

At least I'm almost free, meaning I'm incredibly close to 30. Ranking up 5 times to get the 75 wolf creds needed for a single reactor or catalyst is definitely not gonna entice me to pay much attention to this stuff.

As i mentioned a few posts ago, for 75 wolf creds you could also buy 3 auras and some nitain, sell the auras for 30 plat each, buy 4 reactor or catalysts with that and still have 10 plat plus.

[75 wold creds] == [1 potato in nw] == [5 Nitain, 4 potatos and 10 plat when trading]

Isn't nightwave just great?

/s

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Guest

Some of these challenges were probably stealth changed in a PC update, since consoles have to fully slot more sculptures and play more sorties.

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

I haven't done the exploiter fight yet, no interest, But I heard it was always there you just need thermia to beat it. I think the Thermia is supposed to a common recurring event like the annoying ghouls.
 

I saw the announcements multiple times on facebook and on twitter.
 

You have to have scanned the required items in the Orb Vallis to gain access though.

Wait, they used social media to announce it? welp, theres my achilles heel in the modern age, FB is a side thing for contact with friends & family only for me, and twitter is an outright avoid for me, like driving a Kia, I have an issue with things named in such ways that it defines its true colors in its cutsey names.

K.I.A on a hunk of steel & fiberglass lovingly called a speed casket, I like tempting fate, not that much & twitter? yeah same thing I may be alot of bad words & readily admit to it, but twitter user? Not gonna be one of them. Odd duck has been a common moniker.

Either way, thanks again.

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As many people told their opinion about acts, I will tell you other one. 

In former contents and stories of warframe, Tenno was main character.

In most of the operations and tactical alerts, Tenno fought against powerful enemies and protected orgin system from upcoming threats.

They rescued weaks suffered from evil nations, and became the ultimate reinforcement for syndicates.

But in wolf of saturn six, tenno does nothing but repelling stalker mk2 or capturing fugitives who were just going on a picnic.

And both of them just give little rewards,without making any influence to storyline.

I think, one of the most attractive point in warframe story is that every choice and act of the Tenno change the destiny of system.

But.. in this time, I can't deny that we are just audience doing nothing but chewing popcorns and watching great-new-wolf do something.  

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So, yesterday I found out there was a hidden timer in Nightwave.

You can't do a challenge right at rollover, you have to wait for it to...I don't know, finish?  If you do a challenge, like say the Ayatan sculpture one inside the few minutes it takes to roll over?  You get no credit and you have wasted your time and equipment.  I actually had to stop playing because I was so upset.

I do think they should bring back alerts though, at least after a fashion.  It adds to the feeling of us fighting a war, that the unexpected crop up here and there--maybe fold the nightmare missions into them so they are easier to find.

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Kind of disappointed that the ayatan challenge is back. I feel like it's the only truly bad challenge in Nightwave. 

Other than that, I'm not really sure what people actually want from nightwave challenges, other than to only have challenges you can complete accidentally.

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Is it intended that the Saturn Six Fugitives don't spawn in mission where there is another "timed enemy" ?

Let me explain, on the start of Nightwave I directly searched a way to farm the fugitives while not wasting the time between each of their spawn, so one of my idea was to go to the Lua Survival to farm War part in the same time as them, but they never spawned on that mission. (I did not check since that if they spawn there but I think they won't)

I reached tier 30 last monday and after Equinox prime release I went mainly to Ophelia on Uranus, in order to drop Ash System for an Ephemera while xping and farming, and I realized that no saturn six fugitives spawned on Ophelia. I first thought it was due to the host migration I had on that mission, then I retested and thought it was due to me having the tier 30 reached, but finally I got some of them on some other missions so I thought "Manic spawn use the same algorythme and prevent their apparition as other assassins prevent the Wolf spawn".

Then the PoE rework occured, and since the implementation of the Tusk Thumper in PoE, fugitives don't spawn anymore in PoE, or at least not during the day, but I never seen some spawning in the night as they did before the rework. So from there I thought "well they removed them from the free-roams cause it was easy to farm, legit", but I encountered some today in Orb Vallis.

From my observations these mission mecanics prevent their apparition in a mission:
- Sentient on Lua, at least tested on the survival, on launch of Nightwave.
- Manic on grineer endless mission, only tested on Ophelia after Equinox Prime launch.
- Tusk Thumper on PoE.
I'm suspecting it's kinda the same code mecanics and then only the "prioritised" one will spawn on the mission, it's not a real problem for the sentients and the manic, but for the Tusk Thumper it makes the entire plains not able to spawn some fugitives again.

I think it's not a good idea to have Orb vallis spawning them and PoE not spawning them, cause people wanting to farm the nightwave points will avoid PoE for that reason, which is bad as it just received a full face-lift.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

So, yesterday I found out there was a hidden timer in Nightwave.

You can't do a challenge right at rollover, you have to wait for it to...I don't know, finish?  If you do a challenge, like say the Ayatan sculpture one inside the few minutes it takes to roll over?  You get no credit and you have wasted your time and equipment.  I actually had to stop playing because I was so upset.

I do think they should bring back alerts though, at least after a fashion.  It adds to the feeling of us fighting a war, that the unexpected crop up here and there--maybe fold the nightmare missions into them so they are easier to find.

That sucks for you but this has kind of always been a thing in Warframe if you're logged in at the time the daily resets. You either need to reload the game or start a mission or go to a relay or Cetus/Fortuna and return to your orbiter to reset the day. 

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A key problem in Nightwave is that there just isn't enough choice in what objectives you want to do.  For a significant chunk of the playerbase, we're pushed to do 100% or as close to 100% of the objectives as we can muster.

We cannot simply do 60% of the objectives, even if we played every single day since Nightwave started, because prestiging exists and gives meaningful rewards.  Some players don't feel any need to do them, because they already got everything from the old Alert system and no longer need potatoes, Nitain, or aura mods.  Others, however, don't already have everything, and because Nightwave lasts for literal months at a time it's a massive opportunity cost to not farm as much as you can for these scarce resources.  The fix?  No more rewards for prestiging - they should either be utterly negligible (stuff that could be better farmed through other methods) or ideally completely non-existant.  No glyphs, no little marker for achieving 100% of objectives, absolutely nothing.  Yes, there is a group of players who care about achievements, we all know about Bartle's taxonomy - don't abuse them.

The other side of this is that not everyone logs into the game every single week, and that should be respected.  Not everyone started Nightwave at week 0 - they should not feel like the next five weeks are going to be a complete waste because it's now impossible for them to get rewards.  This is the problem with the 10 week format and the expiring objectives.  This helps play into burnout as well, since players who don't want to be one of those who've fallen hopelessly behind feel like they have to "do their homework" every week so they can turn it in on Sunday night (which just so happens to line right up when a lot of people's IRL school assignments are due - I wonder why that might be stressful?).

I really do appreciate that Alerts were replaced - having players stop playing with their friends becuase they want something an Alert has and they don't is terrible design, logging into the game in the middle of the night or leaving a social gathering because the game has a rare reward you want is unethical game design. But the faults of Alerts don't justify Nightwave having its own exploitative elements.

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I'm at a loss here.  After completing everything, this seems like replacing a system that isn't broken with an untested mess which should have been tested before being rushed out.

 

On a more critical note:

1) Formas being "rewarded," and then required for points, is not a reward.  Beyond the lack of a reward, forcing us to forma three items is arbitrary and frustrating for those who have virtually everything.

2) The "with friends" requirements being removed is reasonable.  I don't understand why this was a necessity, when these activities require a team for everything but the top 1% of solo players.  

3) Nightwave credit rewards are a joke.  Once you get all 30 rewards, each new tier is 15 credits.  15.  15.  I just don't get it.  10,000 points of grind won't even get you 50 points.  If a Catalyst or Reactor costs 75 points, you will take 50,000 points to unlock one.  This isn't a reward system, it's an admission that after the Umbral Forma you ran out of ideas.  If I were a new player I'd be frustrated that I could earn a Vauban or a couple of Catalysts/Reactors in 10 weeks (with no alternative helmets or other skins).  As a veteran I find it insulting that Umbral Forma are locked behind a huge grind, which functionally has 4-6 rewards worth pursuing for the entire event (read: Penta Mod, slots, and maybe the Arcane).  

4) Nightwave offers little choice, and plenty of frustration.  I don't think the Guild Wars 2 comments are unfounded.  Provide multiple options, with varying levels of grind, and allow players to choose which challenges they complete.  Using the Profit-taker as an example, there's a substantial pool of people who couldn't do that.  Too bad.  If you had offered a "Kill the Profit Taker," "Unlock 20 relics," and "Complete 5 assassinations" you'd cover the entire player base.  

5) Make sure the stuff called out in the Nightwave works.  I tried 4 times yesterday to complete the Sortie's first mission.  In all three of the first attempts a door would not open.  No alarms, door was green, but would not open.  It's the second time in two weeks, though previously an abort and restart did the trick on a random run.

6) There's no reason to care about the Nightwave after Sunday.  Most of it is a one shot, and the items that aren't are a daily grind (5 sorties, 10 syndicate missions, etc...).  At least alerts were a reason to pay attention to the game, and whenever you completed them the rewards seemed like a 1:1 value.

 

 

Now, with all of the above, it should be obvious that I don't believe Nightwave is a success.  What would work?  Let's start by stratifying the player base.  You've got veterans starved for content, veterans who view the game as a thing every few days, newer players starved for materials, and newer players who have no guidance and are drowning under the content here which does nothing to guide you logically.

Hammer all of these groups at once, by bringing back alerts in a new format (similar to Nightwave).  Offer 3-5 daily alerts, where the reward is a lump of endo, resources, or cosmetic.  This could be used in a tiered progression to get players to do missions they usually wouldn't, as determined by your metrics.  The goal here is to get new players resources, and provide some assistance from veterans looking to cut out some grind or get a reward.  The duration would provide an impetus to complete them, but enough pad to not be punishing.

Next, let's look at your veterans.  Nitain and Vitus Essence are a royal pain to farm.  Keep the random hourly changes, and introduce a mission every couple of days to offer a 3:1 reward for a Sortie level challenge.  I'd happily do Arbitration style exterminates to get 3 Nitain and 1 Essence, but 10 minutes of one shot kills for a single essence and endo (something you need en mass to even be capable of the Arbitration) is a waste of time.  Move the mod drops to the Arbiters, and suddenly the value proposition for Arbitrations is real.  Even if you are unlucky, you'll eventually be able to buy what you want.

Finally, the Veterans starved for content.  It's time for a weekly challenge.  One challenge to prevent power farming, level 100+ enemies, and conditions.  Suddenly it's a mild challenge.  Now, what do you offer as a reward?  Vaulted relics in substantial packs.  Imagine receiving a 20 pack of Volt Prime bits (4 pieces and 1 forma).  Maybe once a month you get access to Baro, Tennocon style.  No need for new content, just access to the old stuff and the ability to sell rare content back to the community via trade.  The reward is arguably meh for those already done with everything, but it allows people to funnel back rare drops for platinum.  The platinum is consumed on cosmetics, because what else do veterans need, and the presence of these cosmetics drives purchases by new players because they think the investment in aesthetics is worth it.

 

This is what I call a win-win-win.  Right now Nightwave is a lose-win.  For every improvement, a loss occurs.  It isn't a replacement for alerts, it's fundamentally misunderstanding what the system is about, and implementing something completely incompatible.  You've introduced greater rewards, but there's no reason to come back day-to-day.  I'd argue the sorties would fill this role, until you look at the recent modifications.  If the goal is to equalize power then the riven system is inherently not worth investing in.  The sorties are largely worthless, except for the rivens (4000 endo is better than the sculpture, and doesn't require stars).  You have to recognize that the replacement system isn't driving daily participation, but a weekly investment and popping back in every few days.  It's fundamentally a failure, despite interesting components.  

 

Putting this simply, Nightwave is the pendulum too far right.  Alerts were too far left.  Please balance the ideas, and minimize your investment of time so more content can be created.  Nora isn't content.  The prisoners aren't content.  The Wolf isn't content.  Nightwave is not a success regarding these metrics, and should be retired for alerts 2.0 mixing old alerts and this more generous timing scheme.

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